How do you manage to get thousands of hours?

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How would you know that if you don't seem to be in vet school yourself yet? At least that's what it says on your profile. If that's not true, then sorry..

Speaking with 100+ vet students from all over the US and Canada and speaking with 30+ vets in the western part of the US.

If you can prove me wrong on this and give me an example of a hospital where all you do is clean kennels then go for it. But I have never talked to a kennel worker that didn't walk away with a greater knowledge of veterinary medicine.

I was vague in my message and you misinterpreted my point. I'm referring to the staff coming in at 6am and cleaning to ~8am and then coming back at 6pm after appointments and cleaning again.

You make some valid points about what will be helpful for you in vet school and your career that have been discussed on other threads, but that is irrelevant when it comes time to applying. Schools don't seem to view it the way you do, and it is misleading (I think) to applicants to state otherwise.

I think all SOV and I are saying is that you don't need to be a tech to satisfy that to get in to vet school. That can be evidenced by the large number of people who get in every year who have never worked as a tech.

Fair enough.

Your opinions might differ, but I don't think you necessarily need these interactions with clients to understand what the profession is about (or make a decision about whether it's one you want to enter or not).

I'll agree to disagree. An episode with a crazy cat or horse owner can definitely shed a different shade of light on the profession. I understand your point though.

It is very short sighted of you to think that everyone should fit the clinical practice mold. You'll see when you start that all of your classmates have different strengths/weaknesses.

Obviously the profession is more simply clinicians but a majority of students enter clinical practices where they will be required to handle horses, maneuver around cattle, restrain cats and dogs, handle snakes etc... It is not practical to teach all these skills in vet school. You'd have to add another semester to be fully qualified to handle the animals listed above.

Maybe I should state that it is best to have experience in the field you plan to pursue. And I believe the more the better. Regardless of what the adcom thinks, I doubt an adcom has ever wished someone had less hours of vet experience.

My take might be different than yours but either way we've been successful in being accepted to vet school. Obviously, there is no one equation to get accepted into vet school and various backgrounds fill various niches in the industry.
 
I would argue that the time I spent shadowing or working directly alongside the vet taught me MORE about what it's like to be a vet than the hours working in the clinic with the vets on the road. Don't get me wrong, I still learned a TON of valuable information and skills during pretty much everything, but, as stated above, being a tech does not equal being a vet. It's easier to learn from watching the vet interact with the animal and client, and learn about their cognitive processes, if you are not on the other side of the hospital cleaning stalls/cages, counting pills, etc. These cognitive processes, client interactions, decision making, and surgery/other high level procedural skills are what make a vet a vet, not a tech; as far as deciding to go to vet school and getting in are concerned, the most important thing is whether you want to do these skills and whether you would be good at them, not whether you can wrap a surgery pack efficiently or set up a particular brand of fluid pump.

I wholeheartedly agree with Minnerbelle that you are putting too much emphasis on having technical skills when you come in to school. For one thing, there are too many species to work with and too many skills for everyone to have done everything before they come, which is one reason to cover everything in classes. Everybody teaches each other and to some extent weaknesses and strengths even out, although people always will have stronger areas and weaker areas. While you (or other student X) might be better than me at intubating a dog or putting a catheter in a cat, since I only shadowed in SA practice and didn't work, I have more experience handling difficult horses and have restrained a horse with one hand while giving an IV injection with the other. In addition to the classes, which pretty much establish the basics of how they want to do things, there are opportunities for reinforcing and practicing these skills by volunteering at free clinics, RAVS, TNR clinics, etc.

EDIT: Sorry, wrote this a couple hours ago, forgot to actually hit post, wandered off, came back and hit post. It IS important for students to know how to handle animals of all species - that's why we have handling classes and supervision in the VMTH! Have YOU handled all of those species, not just your own animals but strange animals who are in pain and in strange situations? It's true, a large number of people in my class had never handled a horse at the beginning of the semester, but I'm OK with that. They are learning safe methods of handling and those who want to continue equine work after they graduate have plenty of opportunities to get involved in extracurriculars and learn more, within and outside of the school. And even having your own horses is not the same as dealing with a 2 y.o. stud colt with a bad attitude and a bellyache who needs a nasogastric tube placed, or a cranky broodmare who is exhausted from worry and tired of having people in the stall every hour to take care of her foal.

Regarding client interactions, you don't have to be the employed tech to experience the difficult client. In fact, I think shadowing - so that you aren't distracted by restraining the pet, etc., and can watch body language and listen attentively - and then discussing with the veterinarian gives you a BETTER perspective on what the client actually says to the vet (which may be different from what they say to the tech), why they are saying it, and the pros and cons of different methods of dealing with difficult clients. There will be plenty of time later (including in school) for practicing client communication - as a pre-vet, it's enough to observe, absorb, and learn.
 
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While you (or other student X) might be better than me at intubating a dog or putting a catheter in a cat, since I only shadowed in SA practice and didn't work, I have more experience handling difficult horses and have restrained a horse with one hand while giving an IV injection with the other. In addition to the classes, which pretty much establish the basics of how they want to do things, there are opportunities for reinforcing and practicing these skills by volunteering at free clinics, RAVS, TNR clinics, etc.

Yep, exactly. And on top of those usual opportunities, if you put yourself out there, there are plenty of opportunities to be had. I think it's most certainly up to the individual student to make sure that they do whatever it takes to ensure that they gain all the tech skills they need by the time they graduate. For those who are especially deficient, it might take more work outside of the curriculum before clinics. Like with everything else (book learning included), you won't be a very successful student if you took 0 initiative to take your learning in your own hands. For instance, I had like zippo experiences with horses, which didn't bother me much since I doubt I'll touch another horse after I graduate vet school. But because I felt like I was missing out, I trained to become a LA technician at school (sweet deal, paid training + reeeeally good experience!). I've been able to review and rebuff my tech skills and learn some new ones at a humane society and private practice. I've arranged to get a bunch of my much needed catheter placement experience next semester, and I'm pretty psyched! During my first 3 semesters, I probably spent just about as much time getting extracurricular experiences as I spent in class (which might not be saying much because I skip a lot of classes... but still 🙄).

Someone coming in with years of tech experience in mixed practice could totes just concentrate on school and not worry about being behind come 4th year, but with my given set of qualifications and opportunities available to me throughout my pre-vet years, I think I played it right. I don't need to be the best, but I want to be competent all around, and I think I'm getting there.
 
So let me get the straight- because I'm an employed technician with an actual job description, I haven't acquired any valuable information about vet-client interactions or my boss' cognitive processes?

Don't you think that somewhere in the 10,000 hours I've worked side by side with my two employers for the past 4 years that I might I have asked a question or two about "how", "why", or "why not"? Do you honestly believe that just because I receive payment for working my rear end off six days a week, in the freezing rain or in the 100+ degree heat, that I couldn't hear or observe any of the interactions between the vets and the clients?

You are incredibly naive if you think someone who shadowed a vet for 100 hours has a better understanding of the profession that someone who has been on their hands & knees in the middle of muddy pasture on a 107 degree July day in Texas, up to their elbows in bovine intestines and reproductive tract, side by side with their employer. Come find me in 10 years and let me know how accurate your "understanding" was.
 
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Pretty sure nobody is saying that techs don't pick up valuable information about the profession. The gist of what people are saying is that it isn't necessary to be a tech - or to be always doing clinical/technical tasks - for something to be veterinary experience. Also with the addendum that shadowing can be very good for allowing you to see client-doctor interactions, better in some instances than someone who is doing technical work (or just cleaning) in the back. 🙂
 
So let me get the straight- because I'm an employed technician with an actual job description, I haven't acquired any valuable information about vet-client interactions or my boss' cognitive processes?

Don't you think that somewhere in the 10,000 hours I've worked side by side with my two employers for the past 4 years that I might I have asked a question or two about "how", "why", or "why not"? Do you honestly believe that just because I receive payment for working my rear end off six days a week, in the freezing rain or in the 100+ degree heat, that I couldn't hear or observe any of the interactions between the vets and the clients?

You are incredibly naive if you think someone who shadowed a vet for 100 hours has a better understanding of the profession that someone who has been on their hands & knees in the middle of muddy pasture on a 107 degree July day in Texas, up to their elbows in bovine intestines and reproductive tract, side by side with their employer. Come find me in 10 years and let me know how accurate your "understanding" was.
So of course we come full circle.

Someone posts that kennel/shadowing is not equal to vet experience. and then... we get your whine.

No one is saying your tech experience is useless. Anyone with 10,000 hours of experience is going to know a lot about the profession (and honestly whether they shadowed for 10k hours or worked). The tone of your post is unnecessarily and honestly unbelievably hostile.

Maybe you should ask yourself why you feel such a desperate need to justify yourself?
 
So let me get the straight- because I'm an employed technician with an actual job description, I haven't acquired any valuable information about vet-client interactions or my boss' cognitive processes?

Don't you think that somewhere in the 10,000 hours I've worked side by side with my two employers for the past 4 years that I might I have asked a question or two about "how", "why", or "why not"? Do you honestly believe that just because I receive payment for working my rear end off six days a week, in the freezing rain or in the 100+ degree heat, that I couldn't hear or observe any of the interactions between the vets and the clients?

You are incredibly naive if you think someone who shadowed a vet for 100 hours has a better understanding of the profession that someone who has been on their hands & knees in the middle of muddy pasture on a 107 degree July day in Texas, up to their elbows in bovine intestines and reproductive tract, side by side with their employer. Come find me in 10 years and let me know how accurate your "understanding" was.

Oh for heaven's sake... NO ONE was implying this - the entire point of this thread is that you don't HAVE to have tech hours - not that they are useless. Deep breaths - you are well prepared for vet school and your experiences as a tech will be beneficial
 
:laugh: True.

Unless you read the state laws, then dead animals are just considered trash. 🙁
Ah, but, laws are not equal to ethics..

I read somewhere that laws without morals are in vain ..

Oh yeah, it is on Penn's crest (leges sine moribus vanae).
 

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How did this turn into a serious discussion? My apologies y'all.

I can fix that.

And the horse is already dead there is no violence if the animal is already deceased. 😉

Oddly enough, that very excuse (more or less) has been used....

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/judge-rules-dead-deer-sex

[Aside: How exactly does that go down? Yer toolin' along the highway, see a dead deer on the side of the road, and think to yourself, "Self - that there looks like a mighty fine doe...." I mean, c'mon.....]
 
basement-horse.png
 
I go back to work for a day and this is what you people get up to??
 
wtf... LIS you like.. predicted the future. Quoting something that hasn't even been SAID YET!! 😱......:scared:
 
b00bs. I just wanted to contribute to this enlightened discussion.
 
Soapbox time-
I think every applicant that wants to practice veterinary medicine must spend significant time in a clinic or working with a vet, preferably in the field you are going to work. Shadowing is great but in my experience it does not give a true sense of the profession. If you show up at 9 and leave at 5 once a week for a couple months, you will receive a false impression of the hours veterinarians put in (on the equine, FA, ER side). Put in 60+ hours a week for multiple weeks and see if you still love the profession...
Off Soapbox

Hey, there's nothing I'd love more than to put in 60+ hours a week for multiple weeks to see whether this is something I truly want to do, but for some of us, this isn't practical or even possible. In my area, hardly anyone is hiring, and if they were, I doubt they'd pick someone with a graduate degree and experience in another field for even a kennel-cleaning job when there are dozens of eager college students chomping at the bit to get their hands on a job like that.

What do you suggest non-trads who can't afford to quit their full-time job and find a vet-related menial job to seriously test out the profession do? Should they simply not bother?
 
Start small just do something on weekends or later at night. Once you get your foot in the door places will be more willing to hire you. Shelters are often easierto start in than clinics.
 
Hey, there's nothing I'd love more than to put in 60+ hours a week for multiple weeks to see whether this is something I truly want to do, but for some of us, this isn't practical or even possible. In my area, hardly anyone is hiring, and if they were, I doubt they'd pick someone with a graduate degree and experience in another field for even a kennel-cleaning job when there are dozens of eager college students chomping at the bit to get their hands on a job like that.

What do you suggest non-trads who can't afford to quit their full-time job and find a vet-related menial job to seriously test out the profession do? Should they simply not bother?

If you're trying to stick to the 4 year UG formula, you're kind of screwed. Especially if you have no previous vet experience before starting school.

I worked for a year or two in kennels and assisting before I started my pre-reqs. Then took a night job in a kitchen so I could go to school during the day. After I had some grades to put on a resume, I got a summer job at a clinic that turned into a regular job that actually pays decently. It's still borderline menial pay, but it pays the bills most months.

In busy semesters, my work lets me do weekends, and the odd evening. It doesn't seem like much at the time, but it definitely adds up.

Long post short, find something you can reasonably do and start chipping away at the hours you need. Stuff has a strange way of working out once you wade in.
 
Start small just do something on weekends or later at night. Once you get your foot in the door places will be more willing to hire you. Shelters are often easierto start in than clinics.

Yeah, that's what I've been thinking. Unfortunately, my local shelter only wants morning volunteers. They've got more people than they know what to do with for evenings and weekends, so they said they didn't need me once I found full-time employment and couldn't come in during the mornings. I've almost saved enough for my own car, so places that aren't immediately accessible by train will be options, since I won't have to time everything with my fiance's shift schedule and car usage. Hopefully something will come through.

If you're trying to stick to the 4 year UG formula, you're kind of screwed. Especially if you have no previous vet experience before starting school.

I'm not doing the traditional 4 year UG formula but am trying to pick up the pre-reqs. I may go for a second degree in the future (to get in more biochem and upper-level bio in addition to the basic pre-reqs), depending on how things go after my fiance finishes his MS. In the meantime, I need to keep working full-time at my job for the tuition remission benefits. I work at a public university, but the colleges out here are some of the most expensive public institutions in the country. We can't afford to pay tuition here without taking out loans (!), but that will change when we move to another state in a few months.

I worked for a year or two in kennels and assisting before I started my pre-reqs. Then took a night job in a kitchen so I could go to school during the day. After I had some grades to put on a resume, I got a summer job at a clinic that turned into a regular job that actually pays decently. It's still borderline menial pay, but it pays the bills most months.

That sounds like a good plan! It's good to hear that some grades and kennel/assisting work helped you land a job at a clinic. I'd like to do something similar, but it doesn't seem possible at the moment because of (a) the tuition problem and (b) my background. After leaving graduate school, I tried getting a typical menial job while looking for a full-time, permanent position. I couldn't even get a call back from retail and restaurants because they'd ask for schools attended and work history, and I couldn't lie about it. Since then, I tried applying for the only part-time weekend kennel job I could find, and - *crickets*. I'm going to keep trying, but if nothing comes of it, are there any other ways to get started?

In busy semesters, my work lets me do weekends, and the odd evening. It doesn't seem like much at the time, but it definitely adds up.

Long post short, find something you can reasonably do and start chipping away at the hours you need. Stuff has a strange way of working out once you wade in.

Thanks for the advice. You're right about things managing to work out somehow once you start pushing. That's been my experience in the past, but for some reason, it's been much more of a struggle so far this time around. It's very frustrating when you have such a hard time figuring out how to get your foot in the door while juggling all of your other responsibilities, and reading that the little you might be able to do is still inadequate is quite discouraging.
 
What do you suggest non-trads who can't afford to quit their full-time job and find a vet-related menial job to seriously test out the profession do? Should they simply not bother?
I suggest you ignore Wycolo's response. That is great for people with the time but just not possible (and even Wycolo limits it to Equine, FA etc) in many cases for non-trads.

Volunteering/Shadowing will give you a good enough view of the profession for adcoms, and there are a large number of non-trads who have gone that route. I don't know that I have ever seen anyone state that it ultimately matters how you got your experience... And if you already have had a job, perhaps working 60+ hour weeks won't be such a shock. and anyway, there are plenty of vets who never see anything like those numbers of hours.
 
Volunteering/Shadowing will give you a good enough view of the profession for adcoms, and there are a large number of non-trads who have gone that route.

👍

Wycolo's view is, I think, idealistic and not realistic. I went the route SoV describes and I'm doing fine so far. If you're in my position you're going to be surrounded by people with far more experience than you once you get into vet school. You can either look at that negatively and feel bad, or you can use them as resources to ramp up.
 
Sorry about the delayed response but here is my take-

You can't have a full-time job and work 60 hours a week at a different job. That would kill you. Plus having a job that is paying back some of your student loans is excellent. It is would be fool-hearty to leave that job to get paid $8 an hour cleaning kennels.

As for getting even a weekend or part-time job. You should be even more eager and willing than the college students you speak of. Hopefully, you are more mature and responsible than an 18 yo freshman living in the dorms. You should be able to sell this fact to a potential employer.

Other ideas...Do a full day shadow with a vet that is on call weekends. In general, vets are pretty understanding and willing to help if you explain your situation to them.

If you find a practice that you could shadow at during the week, consider taking a day or even a week of vacation and shadow for a week. I'm assuming that your university takes quite a few public holidays. Could you find a vet clinic open on MLK day and spend that day shadowing...

Until you can find a more permanent method of gaining hours, this should get you started building up some hours.


Plus an admission committee should be understanding of you working FT and building hours at a slower pace.
 
How do I know what to consider "vet experience" when applying? I still have over 1 year to even start applying, but I started out working with a vet during appointments, so that's veterinary experience, but then I developed a really good relationship with the staff at the clinic and I got a paid job with the manager. Although at this paid job I may not be constantly handling animals, I'm constantly looking through files, computer programs, etc. learning about medications, the types of tests given to animals, learning all of the jargon, etc. Half of this job, too, though is updating stats for the entire company, billing, dealing with clients on the phone and in person who haven't paid bills, dealing with ashes, etc. What exactly would that count as?
 
How do I know what to consider "vet experience" when applying? I still have over 1 year to even start applying, but I started out working with a vet during appointments, so that's veterinary experience, but then I developed a really good relationship with the staff at the clinic and I got a paid job with the manager. Although at this paid job I may not be constantly handling animals, I'm constantly looking through files, computer programs, etc. learning about medications, the types of tests given to animals, learning all of the jargon, etc. Half of this job, too, though is updating stats for the entire company, billing, dealing with clients on the phone and in person who haven't paid bills, dealing with ashes, etc. What exactly would that count as?

You were at a veterinary clinic and technically under the supervision of a veterinarian so I think it should count as veterinary experience. All VMCAS asks is "Is this work related to animals?" and "Were you supervised by a health professional?" or something along those lines. You can always email a couple vet schools you're interested in applying to and ask them their opinions.
 
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