How do you rank residencies for the match?

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Venko

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Primarily for those folks who recently went through the match, can you share how you weighed residencies against each other?

Are there things on an interview trip that a few places did that you wish everyone did?

Are there things on an interview trip that you wish no one did?

Thanks for your help!

Sincerely,
Venk


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Primarily for those folks who recently went through the match, can you share how you weighed residencies against each other?

Are there things on an interview trip that a few places did that you wish everyone did?

Are there things on an interview trip that you wish no one did?

Thanks for your help!

Sincerely,
Venk


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Filtered for geography in initial app, and years of training (3>4)

I went primarily based on gut (interpersonal interactions) and based on experience at the program/first hand accounts from residents I already knew at the programs. The pre-interview dinner was really important to me (who was there, how they acted, did they seem happy and forthcoming, did they blow a lot of smoke/sunshine)

Places I knew someone who was happy or had an away got ranked higher (I liked all my aways and had less uncertainty). Places with sad/tired looking residents or where I knew nobody went a little lower.

Oddly aggressive or defensive people resulted in a lower rank, only encountered 2x on the whole trail. Most people in our specialty are fantastic.

Interview day activities had nothing to do with my rank list, curriculum had little to do with my rank list.

So: testimonial from people I trust = personal experience with program > interactions with residents > interactions on interview day > location >>>>>curriculum>>interview day activities, faculties, cafeteria, etc.

Interview day stuff i liked: I liked getting to meet as many faculty/residents as possible, so for me more interviews or lunches is great. I liked hearing different people's stories, motivations, etc that brought them to where they were. Less important but very much appreciated were food, coffee, brevity in tours.

Stuff i didn't like as much: while I appreciate getting to see the ed, everything else on the tour was less important to me. I don't need to see all six icus, I don't care about the cafeteria or the Starbucks or the on call rooms. Gym is cool selling point if it's really nice, but otherwise I don't really care about that either.

Don't know if that's helpful, but I hope so.
 
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Literally every rank ordered list in the rank ordered list thread begins with "main considerations in ranking programs" used by each applicant. Though @dadaddadaBATMAN's answer is pretty good, too.
 
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My significant other (non medical) was the biggest determinant of my list. Didn't want her to feel deserted while I work my butt off.
In this case location had a huge factor. Turned out we had roughly the same preferences, which was very fortunate.
 
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Literal every rank ordered list in the rank ordered list thread begins with "main considerations in ranking programs" used by each applicant. Though @dadaddadaBATMAN's answer is pretty good, too.

Yeah, that was my initial thought as well, but I think that this post is meant to ask the question in more general terms. A lot of good information for this thread can be found in the rank list threads though.

It's less "what specific factors helped you decide between x, y and z" and more "what factors can x showboff to make them appear ideal"

There is also the second question: what was done specifically during the interview trip that helped/hurt programs. It sometimes gets brought up in ranking, but isn't often addressed directly.
 
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How I weighed residencies against each other:
The most important thing to me was the educational experience. I realize that all EM residencies give good training and I probably am still very un-knowledgeable about what makes a good educational experience, but there are some nuances that I liked better. I wanted to be somewhere with progressive responsibility and with residents with a really well defined role in the ED. I really liked places where the residents historically run a set block of rooms in the ED, and the ED flow is built around these resident roles. Is there a tradition of resident autonomy? Having anesthesia back up in the ED didn't bother me, in fact I think it's better for patients, but when anesthesia was doing the trauma airways I was a little put-off. The other reason I liked progressive responsibility was that I want to gain experience overseeing junior learners (whether that's interns, off service rotators, Sub-Is) because I enjoy teaching and think the best way to master your craft is to teach others. I wanted to be somewhere with a thoughtful set up of off-service rotations. I'm not against doing a gen surg or medicine floor month, but there are some places where clearly the off-service rotations are more thoughtfully assembled than others (copious ICU time, ortho ED consults instead of running the ortho floor, being part of the trauma team vs. running the floor, etc.). Is the peds experience diverse and high quality? Or am I just fighting with peds residents and family medicine rotators to see patients and staff them with fellows in the token quaternary 'top 10 in the country' children's hospital. I considered 'fit' with the residents and program leadership to be part of 'educational experience' as well, because I will be happier and do better in a place where I like everyone and share their values.

Other things that mattered for me after educational experience in descending order: career opportunities for my SO (fortunately my SO has a pretty portable career, but I can see this easily being #1 for some people esp. if couples matching), location: I would like to be in a bigger city, but not NYC, access to the things I like to do for fun, proximity to my family, proximity to my friends.

Are there things on an interview trip that a few places did that you wish everyone did?
Paying for hotels is amazing, one place paid for a second night in the city which was awesome, but I realize not everyone can do that. I realize that's a lot to ask though, haha. It didn't matter to me whether dinners were at a resident's house or a restaurant, I enjoyed most of them. I also LOVED interviews that ended at 1 or 2 pm, staying until 4 or 4:30 really drags and makes it more difficult to get out of a given city. One place I interviewed at ended the interview early; I was able to spend some time checking out the city and ultimately I ended up moving this place higher on my list just because I ended up liking the city much better than I thought I would.

Are there things on an interview trip that you wish no one did?
The awkward second look talk. I realize that second looks are important, but I just couldn't help but get the vibe that people really do judge you based on them, especially when on the rank list thread a PD said that they do occasionally bump people up and down based on second looks. This behavior is kinda tacky. I also really respected places that straight up said we're not going to contact you post interview, make your own list based on what you liked and disliked. The programs that did this just seemed so much more confident and like they ranked based on who they wanted rather than who they thought would come there.

Anyway, I realize this was a novel, but I hope I answered your questions.
 
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Ranked based on location and my gut. My gut was a mix of things that I did and did not like.

Good qualities: autonomy and independence, adequate volume, honesty, opportunities
Bad qualities: not getting to talk to current residents, only having 1 or 2 residents show at dinner, faculty showing up late

Are there things on an interview trip that a few places did that you wish everyone did?
pay for room and board, tour of city/local areas, talking to as many residents as possible, flexibility in scheduling, being done by early afternoon, post interview contact when interested,

Are there things on an interview trip that you wish no one did?
having faculty at lunch and dinner, less crappy swag, making us sit thru didactics or lectures, residents eating before interviewees.

In short, while it shouldn't have to be said, some places did not put their best foot forward, were lazy, not polite, and those are the small things that bothered me the most.
 
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1. The residency I wanted to attend i.e. my "first choice".
2. The next residency I wanted to attend if my first choice didn't take me. I.e. my second choice.
3. The residency I wanted to go to if #1 and #2 didn't work out.
4. You would have guessed it if I didn't match at 1-3 this is the next residency that would be best for me.

Sarcastic but true. Rank lists are simply based on every applicants preferences. Not what someone else wants. Some want to stay on the west coast so #1-5 are all west coast programs. Some want the east coast so #1-5 are east coast. Some even want the midwest. Some don't care about geographical location and want heavy critical care experience and those that gave them that were higher. Some don't care about critical care and want EMS experience and those programs were higher. I would guess that geographical location is probably the #1 influence on rank list. SO, family, friends, most people want to stay where they are, but some don't. Going through the match it was much easier to know where I did not want to go, usually based on the pre-interview dinner. Residents that seemed un-interested or not friendly was a place that I did not want to go.
 
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1. The residency I wanted to attend i.e. my "first choice".
2. The next residency I wanted to attend if my first choice didn't take me. I.e. my second choice.
3. The residency I wanted to go to if #1 and #2 didn't work out.
4. You would have guessed it if I didn't match at 1-3 this is the next residency that would be best for me.

Sarcastic but true. Rank lists are simply based on every applicants preferences. Not what someone else wants. Some want to stay on the west coast so #1-5 are all west coast programs. Some want the east coast so #1-5 are east coast. Some even want the midwest. Some don't care about geographical location and want heavy critical care experience and those that gave them that were higher. Some don't care about critical care and want EMS experience and those programs were higher. I would guess that geographical location is probably the #1 influence on rank list. SO, family, friends, most people want to stay where they are, but some don't. Going through the match it was much easier to know where I did not want to go, usually based on the pre-interview dinner. Residents that seemed un-interested or not friendly was a place that I did not want to go.

This is basically /endthread.
However, what Venko is getting at (I'm guessing), is whether or not there is a way to either find out who the people that will like a program are, or not having that, a way to increase the competitiveness of their ranking list. And I'll say that it's pretty hard. If you're not in a city people want to come to, you need something serious to stand out. Then you have the problem of being "niched" as the ___________ program. Which then drives other applicants away. So basically you have to own your program, and keep attracting the best residents possible. Make your student rotation known for giving out good SLOEs, and then maybe you keep a small number of the people who come through for those. Pay for their housing. Pay for their interview hotels.
It's not easy, as I've learned a couple times so far.
 
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Some *even* want the midwest.

Say it ain't so...who would want to live there? Lollo.

I think SDN is pooping on this question in all-too-typical fashion. There are some practical things to discuss. The question isn't about the things programs can't control (which would be most aspects of applicants' preferences, as people were quick to point out). It's asking about things the program can control.

Sure, preferences vary wildly. People like different things. But is there anyone who doesn't like having their hotel room paid for? Give me a break. I mean if you're going to put me up in a smoking room in some roach house, I'll spend $100 of my own money. But every comped hotel room I had on the trail was nicer than what I would have booked for myself, and those programs stood out.

For me, in the end, deciding which program was number 1 and number 2 had nothing to do with my interview day experience. I was choosing between my home institution and a place I spent a month. My SO's job opportunities ended up being the deciding factor. But in ranking programs 3 through DFL, the interview day and program behavior was very important. Programs have control over a lot of petty things that can actually make a big difference, regardless of people's varied preferences. For me, negative things always had a greater effect size than positive things, meaning for me to rank you highly, you didn't have to throw in every perk, but you did have to avoid the things that were annoying. In general, I didn't like:

  • Interview days that started before 8:00 am local time
  • Interview days that lasted longer than 6 hours
  • Hospital tours that lasted more than 30 minutes
  • This one is the most important. Stone cold interviewers, people who grilled me on my undergraduate research, people that showed little interest in my life outside of medicine, people I couldn't talk to who probably turned around and represent me as abrasive or aloof. Programs have control over who interviews the applicants, and there was nothing that changed my opinion of a program more than my interactions with the people who interviewed me. People in program leadership aren't always the most likable ones you could put in front of applicants. It's an unnecessary homage to the hierarchy of medicine when you have interviews conducted by some awkward attending in a quasi-leadership role. You know you need to sell your program to applicants. Don't ignore the huge liability you create when you put an applicant in a room, alone, for 15-20 minutes with an attending who is socially inept in any way, including but not at all limited to: being argumentative, or arrogant, or out of touch with the younger generation you're attempting to recruit. One bad interviewer can and will sink your battleship, even if the rest of your interview day is money. Also don't exercise the hubris of pretending you have zero attendings on staff that are "cooler"/more likable/more dynamic/more engaging/better socially than some of your program leadership. EM attracts the best, most interesting, most fun people in all of medicine. Utilize the ones you have...put them in front of applicants and let people gel. If you're going to do 3 interviews, I think you'd get way more mileage out of having ONE be conducted by either PD, APD, *or* program director (or do a single panel interview with these three people), then have your other two interviews conducted by your most universally "loved by residents" attendings.
  • Mediocre to bad food. Seriously just go somewhere nice for the pre-interview dinner, and cater something good for lunch (the exception to this rule being when one of your perks is unlimited free cafeteria food or something, and you want to do lunch at the place applicants would be eating for the next 3-4 years)
  • Paying for my own drinks at dinner
  • Not having water available to drink during interviews

Things I did like:

  • Free hotel room, shuttles to/from airport, interview, and dinner
  • Good food, where it felt like the program was treating you to a nice experience
  • The opposite of everything on the list above...cordial interviewers with ample bottled water on their desks, short interview days, free booze at dinner, etc.
  • I had one PD who had memorized each applicant's name, and when he came into the room he walked up to each person individually, said their name, shook their hand, introduced himself by his first name, and thanked each applicant for coming to the interview. Very nice touch. They also had a PowerPoint slide with each applicant's ERAS headahot, name, and school so everyone interviewing that day could get an idea where the other people were from, and I don't think we wore name tags.
  • Post-interview communication. This was huge for me. I'm shallow. Email me, call me, tell me you love me in whatever way you feel comfortable won't give you an NRMP violation. For applicants who spent a month there that you really want to rank you highly, find the attending who liked working with them the most (or was the strongest advocate for them to be ranked highly), and ask them to call or email that person.
If you're a typical SDN rank list program (Denver, Cinci, Alameda, etc) this stuff doesn't matter because the masochists will claw their eyes out to get into your program, no matter how bad your interview experience is. But for middle of the road programs, when everything else starts to blend together in terms of clinical experience, curriculum, volume, these are the things that you can control, that will make a better or a worse impression on applicants.
 
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Say it ain't so...who would want to live there? Lollo.

I think SDN is pooping on this question in all-too-typical fashion. There are some practical things to discuss. The question isn't about the things programs can't control (which would be most aspects of applicants' preferences, as people were quick to point out). It's asking about things the program can control.

Sure, preferences vary wildly. People like different things. But is there anyone who doesn't like having their hotel room paid for? Give me a break. I mean if you're going to put me up in a smoking room in some roach house, I'll spend $100 of my own money. But every comped hotel room I had on the trail was nicer than what I would have booked for myself, and those programs stood out.

For me, in the end, deciding which program was number 1 and number 2 had nothing to do with my interview day experience. I was choosing between my home institution and a place I spent a month. My SO's job opportunities ended up being the deciding factor. But in ranking programs 3 through DFL, the interview day and program behavior was very important. Programs have control over a lot of petty things that can actually make a big difference, regardless of people's varied preferences. For me, negative things always had a greater effect size than positive things, meaning for me to rank you highly, you didn't have to throw in every perk, but you did have to avoid the things that were annoying. In general, I didn't like:

  • Interview days that started before 8:00 am local time
  • Interview days that lasted longer than 6 hours
  • Hospital tours that lasted more than 30 minutes
  • This one is the most important. Stone cold interviewers, people who grilled me on my undergraduate research, people that showed little interest in my life outside of medicine, people I couldn't talk to who probably turned around and represent me as abrasive or aloof. Programs have control over who interviews the applicants, and there was nothing that changed my opinion of a program more than my interactions with the people who interviewed me. People in program leadership aren't always the most likable ones you could put in front of applicants. It's an unnecessary homage to the hierarchy of medicine when you have interviews conducted by some awkward attending in a quasi-leadership role. You know you need to sell your program to applicants. Don't ignore the huge liability you create when you put an applicant in a room, alone, for 15-20 minutes with an attending who is socially inept in any way, including but not at all limited to: being argumentative, or arrogant, or out of touch with the younger generation you're attempting to recruit. One bad interviewer can and will sink your battleship, even if the rest of your interview day is money. Also don't exercise the hubris of pretending you have zero attendings on staff that are "cooler"/more likable/more dynamic/more engaging/better socially than some of your program leadership. EM attracts the best, most interesting, most fun people in all of medicine. Utilize the ones you have...put them in front of applicants and let people gel. If you're going to do 3 interviews, I think you'd get way more mileage out of having ONE be conducted by either PD, APD, *or* program director (or do a single panel interview with these three people), then have your other two interviews conducted by your most universally "loved by residents" attendings.
  • Mediocre to bad food. Seriously just go somewhere nice for the pre-interview dinner, and cater something good for lunch (the exception to this rule being when one of your perks is unlimited free cafeteria food or something, and you want to do lunch at the place applicants would be eating for the next 3-4 years)
  • Paying for my own drinks at dinner
  • Not having water available to drink during interviews

Things I did like:

  • Free hotel room, shuttles to/from airport, interview, and dinner
  • Good food, where it felt like the program was treating you to a nice experience
  • The opposite of everything on the list above...cordial interviewers with ample bottled water on their desks, short interview days, free booze at dinner, etc.
  • I had one PD who had memorized each applicant's name, and when he came into the room he walked up to each person individually, said their name, shook their hand, introduced himself by his first name, and thanked each applicant for coming to the interview. Very nice touch. They also had a PowerPoint slide with each applicant's ERAS headahot, name, and school so everyone interviewing that day could get an idea where the other people were from, and I don't think we wore name tags.
  • Post-interview communication. This was huge for me. I'm shallow. Email me, call me, tell me you love me in whatever way you feel comfortable won't give you an NRMP violation. For applicants who spent a month there that you really want to rank you highly, find the attending who liked working with them the most (or was the strongest advocate for them to be ranked highly), and ask them to call or email that person.
If you're a typical SDN rank list program (Denver, Cinci, Alameda, etc) this stuff doesn't matter because the masochists will claw their eyes out to get into your program, no matter how bad your interview experience is. But for middle of the road programs, when everything else starts to blend together in terms of clinical experience, curriculum, volume, these are the things that you can control, that will make a better or a worse impression on applicants.
Totally agree with the vast majority of the above. Interviewers make the day, and one bad interaction made me start to look for other flaws in the program.
Funnily enough, your "things I did like" list is an outline of the Cinci interview.
 
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Say it ain't so...who would want to live there? Lollo.

I think SDN is pooping on this question in all-too-typical fashion. There are some practical things to discuss. The question isn't about the things programs can't control (which would be most aspects of applicants' preferences, as people were quick to point out). It's asking about things the program can control.

Sure, preferences vary wildly. People like different things. But is there anyone who doesn't like having their hotel room paid for? Give me a break. I mean if you're going to put me up in a smoking room in some roach house, I'll spend $100 of my own money. But every comped hotel room I had on the trail was nicer than what I would have booked for myself, and those programs stood out.

For me, in the end, deciding which program was number 1 and number 2 had nothing to do with my interview day experience. I was choosing between my home institution and a place I spent a month. My SO's job opportunities ended up being the deciding factor. But in ranking programs 3 through DFL, the interview day and program behavior was very important. Programs have control over a lot of petty things that can actually make a big difference, regardless of people's varied preferences. For me, negative things always had a greater effect size than positive things, meaning for me to rank you highly, you didn't have to throw in every perk, but you did have to avoid the things that were annoying. In general, I didn't like:

  • Interview days that started before 8:00 am local time
  • Interview days that lasted longer than 6 hours
  • Hospital tours that lasted more than 30 minutes
  • This one is the most important. Stone cold interviewers, people who grilled me on my undergraduate research, people that showed little interest in my life outside of medicine, people I couldn't talk to who probably turned around and represent me as abrasive or aloof. Programs have control over who interviews the applicants, and there was nothing that changed my opinion of a program more than my interactions with the people who interviewed me. People in program leadership aren't always the most likable ones you could put in front of applicants. It's an unnecessary homage to the hierarchy of medicine when you have interviews conducted by some awkward attending in a quasi-leadership role. You know you need to sell your program to applicants. Don't ignore the huge liability you create when you put an applicant in a room, alone, for 15-20 minutes with an attending who is socially inept in any way, including but not at all limited to: being argumentative, or arrogant, or out of touch with the younger generation you're attempting to recruit. One bad interviewer can and will sink your battleship, even if the rest of your interview day is money. Also don't exercise the hubris of pretending you have zero attendings on staff that are "cooler"/more likable/more dynamic/more engaging/better socially than some of your program leadership. EM attracts the best, most interesting, most fun people in all of medicine. Utilize the ones you have...put them in front of applicants and let people gel. If you're going to do 3 interviews, I think you'd get way more mileage out of having ONE be conducted by either PD, APD, *or* program director (or do a single panel interview with these three people), then have your other two interviews conducted by your most universally "loved by residents" attendings.
  • Mediocre to bad food. Seriously just go somewhere nice for the pre-interview dinner, and cater something good for lunch (the exception to this rule being when one of your perks is unlimited free cafeteria food or something, and you want to do lunch at the place applicants would be eating for the next 3-4 years)
  • Paying for my own drinks at dinner
  • Not having water available to drink during interviews

Things I did like:

  • Free hotel room, shuttles to/from airport, interview, and dinner
  • Good food, where it felt like the program was treating you to a nice experience
  • The opposite of everything on the list above...cordial interviewers with ample bottled water on their desks, short interview days, free booze at dinner, etc.
  • I had one PD who had memorized each applicant's name, and when he came into the room he walked up to each person individually, said their name, shook their hand, introduced himself by his first name, and thanked each applicant for coming to the interview. Very nice touch. They also had a PowerPoint slide with each applicant's ERAS headahot, name, and school so everyone interviewing that day could get an idea where the other people were from, and I don't think we wore name tags.
  • Post-interview communication. This was huge for me. I'm shallow. Email me, call me, tell me you love me in whatever way you feel comfortable won't give you an NRMP violation. For applicants who spent a month there that you really want to rank you highly, find the attending who liked working with them the most (or was the strongest advocate for them to be ranked highly), and ask them to call or email that person.
If you're a typical SDN rank list program (Denver, Cinci, Alameda, etc) this stuff doesn't matter because the masochists will claw their eyes out to get into your program, no matter how bad your interview experience is. But for middle of the road programs, when everything else starts to blend together in terms of clinical experience, curriculum, volume, these are the things that you can control, that will make a better or a worse impression on applicants.

Some places have hospital policy that says dept money can't pay for booze (experienced this a couple times). When I was a med stud, I didn't mind paying for my own beer at the pre-interview dinner - it's not like you should be racking up a big bar tab then anyway - but I was a little put off when they only told us that they couldn't pay for alcohol when the check came.

One or two places at which I interviewed had the current residents just all pitch in $10-20 for the beer tab. Thought that was a classy move.
 
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Some places have hospital policy that says dept money can't pay for booze (experienced this a couple times). When I was a med stud, I didn't mind paying for my own beer at the pre-interview dinner - it's not like you should be racking up a big bar tab then anyway - but I was a little put off when they only told us that they couldn't pay for alcohol when the check came.

One or two places at which I interviewed had the current residents just all pitch in $10-20 for the beer tab. Thought that was a classy move.

I agree completely, it's not a deal breaker. I had 3 places I interviewed where the hospital policy prohibited the program from buying booze. Two of them, the residents or faculty picked up the tab; the third one didn't. It cost me $24 for two drinks and tip...not a big deal. But compared to the place that takes you to a Michelin star restaurant and you get free top shelf cocktails, buying your own drinks looks low budget. Like I said, this stuff is petty.

Incidentally, the place where I paid for my own booze also had mediocre food, no free hotel, and awkward interviewers. It landed in the bottom third of my rank list, not DFL, because none of those things are that bad. Tweak them all and this place could have been my number 3, because other deciding factors like geography, reputation, and curriculum were pretty homogeneous through the middle of my rank list.
 
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