How do you select the type of post-doc?

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propsych

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More specifically, how do you select if you want to work in research with the option of working in clinical settings as well.

I, for example, am excited about doing a research post-doc for a a year or two (that's how long they are right?) in some awesome lab, so that I could grow as a researcher, conduct some interesting research, and increase chances of landing a good teaching job at a university where I can start my own lab.

I also, want the opportunity to grow as a clinician, and work as one part-time in a way that is meaningful to me and not just a way to earn more (i.e. with the population I am interested in, doing the specific work I am interested it). My understanding is that those who wish to get licensed have to take a clinical post-doc position to get trained and licensed.

Is there a way to complete both types of post-docs?

Is it possible to be both a great researcher and have a high quality part-time roe as a clinician?

If I decide to quit doing research after spending some time in academia, how would I go about going full-on as a clinician?

And just to offer some more info- I am not even in a phd program yet, however I was super unprepared in undergrad and figured out my career passion very late in the game, so have been scrambling for the last two years to get on the right trajectory. This is why I'd like a solid idea of what my game plan is if and when I do make it to grad school.

thank you!
 
propsych said:
More specifically, how do you select if you want to work in research with the option of working in clinical settings as well.

I, for example, am excited about doing a research post-doc for a a year or two (that's how long they are right?) in some awesome lab, so that I could grow as a researcher, conduct some interesting research, and increase chances of landing a good teaching job at a university where I can start my own lab.

I also, want the opportunity to grow as a clinician, and work as one part-time in a way that is meaningful to me and not just a way to earn more (i.e. with the population I am interested in, doing the specific work I am interested it). My understanding is that those who wish to get licensed have to take a clinical post-doc position to get trained and licensed.

Is there a way to complete both types of post-docs?

Is it possible to be both a great researcher and have a high quality part-time roe as a clinician?

If I decide to quit doing research after spending some time in academia, how would I go about going full-on as a clinician?

And just to offer some more info- I am not even in a phd program yet, however I was super unprepared in undergrad and figured out my career passion very late in the game, so have been scrambling for the last two years to get on the right trajectory. This is why I'd like a solid idea of what my game plan is if and when I do make it to grad school.

thank you!
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Most research postdocs at VAs and AMCs are 75% research 25% clinical so that you can get enough clinical hours to apply for licensure.
 
Seven_Costanza said:
Most research postdocs at VAs and AMCs are 75% research 25% clinical so that you can get enough clinical hours to apply for licensure.
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True. They are almost always 2yr post-docs bc it’s tough to get much done in 1 year from a research perspective and it will likely take 2yr to accrue a sufficient number of clinical and supervision hours to meet state licensure requirements.
 
The number and type of postdoc hours that count toward licensure vary from state to state. My state has been very liberal about what hours "count," for instance, so licensure was not an issue for me even though I did a clinical research postdoc. Some states don't even require a postdoc for licensure anymore, and if anything I would expect more jurisdictions to drop the postdoc requirement in the future. VA postdocs are a good example of combining training in research and clinical practice, but you can often make this split work in an academic medical center too.

As you advance from predoctoral training to internship to postdoc your activities should more closely resemble the career you're aiming for. If the end goal is to get a faculty position in a college or university, then a research postdoc is the way to go. You have to prioritize. You could conceivably do back-to-back postdocs, in which case it's probably best to do the clinical year first. But I don't recommend that for most people. There is usually an easier way to become licensed. Some people don't begin the process of applying for licensure until they've started their first job (again, priorities). It is frustrating, though, that the particulars depend a great deal on the state in which you would be licensed.

TL;DR: Plenty of people in academia can and do make this work. Focus on the task in front of you and try not to worry about the particulars, which may well change by the time you get to postdoc.
 
1) Most students plans will almost undoubtedly change as they progress. I know a few people who authored seminal texts, that started out wanting to do something else.

2) I would encourage anyone to carefully note the LIFESTYLES of various career paths. You could make a ton of money and be miserable doing it. You could study the most incredibly interesting subject, and not be able to pay for your kids' college. I've seen both.
 
Also suggest VA research fellowships. They give you a lot of flexibility in terms of future career paths.
 
MamaPhD said:
The number and type of postdoc hours that count toward licensure vary from state to state. My state has been very liberal about what hours "count," for instance, so licensure was not an issue for me even though I did a clinical research postdoc. Some states don't even require a postdoc for licensure anymore, and if anything I would expect more jurisdictions to drop the postdoc requirement in the future. VA postdocs are a good example of combining training in research and clinical practice, but you can often make this split work in an academic medical center too.

As you advance from predoctoral training to internship to postdoc your activities should more closely resemble the career you're aiming for. If the end goal is to get a faculty position in a college or university, then a research postdoc is the way to go. You have to prioritize. You could conceivably do back-to-back postdocs, in which case it's probably best to do the clinical year first. But I don't recommend that for most people. There is usually an easier way to become licensed. Some people don't begin the process of applying for licensure until they've started their first job (again, priorities). It is frustrating, though, that the particulars depend a great deal on the state in which you would be licensed.

TL;DR: Plenty of people in academia can and do make this work. Focus on the task in front of you and try not to worry about the particulars, which may well change by the time you get to postdoc.
Click to expand...
curious to know why you think more states might drop the req in the future?
 
I think under the right circumstances, it makes good sense to drop the post-doc hours requirements for licensure. I'm not normally a big proponent of trying to align us with medicine, but physicians get licensed after their intern year....not after residency/fellowship. They still manage to maintain (some) level of quality control and this helps alleviate a lot of logistical headaches (billing, etc.).

I hate to see standards lowered, but I would fully support a move that allowed licensure immediately post-internship with the caveat that some additional bars need to be put in place beyond licensure. Whether that is limitations for procedures, providing a limited licensure that still requires supervision, or something else entirely I don't know.

RE: the OP - don't worry about it. You'll figure it out when you get there. Post-doc is not something you CAN even have a clear plan for until you are well into graduate school. Especially on the research front, things move too quickly for you to even know what options will exist 5 years from now. That said, its good to be thinking about. AMCs are a great option. I did a 60% research/40% clinical post-doc. That got complicated when I pulled in enough research funding to get promoted early and spent a stint as an 80% <independent-full-on-assistant-professor>/20% <still-kinda-a-post-doc-when-in-clinic> since it dragged out the timeline to get enough hours for licensure. It worked. And I think that is really the message...if you want it to work, it invariably can be made to work. I know plenty of academics who never bothered getting licensed. I have yet to hear of a single case where a productive researcher wanted to get licensed and was unable to make it happen (assuming they had a clinical degree/internship of course).
 
Therapist4Chnge said:
It’s still a race to the bottom. I think it is a HUGE mistake to lower standards, as the field already has quality control problems.
Click to expand...

Missouri psychologists can now count pre-internship training hours toward licensure

18 states have updated their licensure requirements and removed the postdoc requirement. Texas should be updating theirs soon as well, to get rid of the post-doc requirement.

I think most now require a total of supervised hours that can be obtained at the pre-doctoral, internship, or post-doctoral level.

In the absence of a speciality that requires board certification (i.e., neuro), I don’t see the point of delaying licensure an additional year past graduation. Especially for students that are wrapping up internship year with 3,000-4,000+ supervised hours.
 
I'm looking into some MIRECC positions, although ultimately I am most interested in an academic career. Does anyone have a sense of how possible it would be to make the jump from a MIRECC post doc, to a faculty position elsewhere? One of my concerns would be more about if the MIRECC training team would prefer the post doc ending up in a VA career. At some level I might feel bad about receiving the training in a VA, but then choosing to leave the VA system, I wasn't sure if that would be frowned upon.
 
Icculus8 said:
I'm looking into some MIRECC positions, although ultimately I am most interested in an academic career. Does anyone have a sense of how possible it would be to make the jump from a MIRECC post doc, to a faculty position elsewhere? One of my concerns would be more about if the MIRECC training team would prefer the post doc ending up in a VA career. At some level I might feel bad about receiving the training in a VA, but then choosing to leave the VA system, I wasn't sure if that would be frowned upon.
Click to expand...

I have personally seen people go from these postdocs into academia. Although it is much more often that they stay in VA in a research or clinical position. If you did this I would focus any grant efforts on K awards and non-VA funding. It would be much easier to transition out.
 
That helps, thanks. It does seem possible, and I know they certainly encourage applying for the the VA career development awards, but I don't think they would dissuade from applying for a K or NIH award. It seems like good training, but its hard to know what type of post doc position will be "best" for setting up the type of longterm career I would most want.
 
Icculus8 said:
That helps, thanks. It does seem possible, and I know they certainly encourage applying for the the VA career development awards, but I don't think they would dissuade from applying for a K or NIH award. It seems like good training, but its hard to know what type of post doc position will be "best" for setting up the type of longterm career I would most want.
Click to expand...

My question is why go to a postdoc at all if you want an academic career? There are plenty of people (myself, and I can count about 8-10 others I know) who got academic jobs right out of internship. If you haven't even started grad school yet, my advice is to publish during grad school as much as you can so you can start a job right away! (Many places will let you work toward licensure even while doing an academic job, so even places with post-doctoral hour requirements aren't non-starters here.)
 
EmotRegulation said:
My question is why go to a postdoc at all if you want an academic career? There are plenty of people (myself, and I can count about 8-10 others I know) who got academic jobs right out of internship. If you haven't even started grad school yet, my advice is to publish during grad school as much as you can so you can start a job right away! (Many places will let you work toward licensure even while doing an academic job, so even places with post-doctoral hour requirements aren't non-starters here.)
Click to expand...

I just got the sense that it is very difficult to get a TT job straight out of school. I don't want to make too many assumptions about how much (or little) I'll be publishing in grad school, but the goal is certainly to do so as much as I can! Thanks!
 
EmotRegulation said:
My question is why go to a postdoc at all if you want an academic career? There are plenty of people (myself, and I can count about 8-10 others I know) who got academic jobs right out of internship. If you haven't even started grad school yet, my advice is to publish during grad school as much as you can so you can start a job right away! (Many places will let you work toward licensure even while doing an academic job, so even places with post-doctoral hour requirements aren't non-starters here.)
Click to expand...
propsych said:
I just got the sense that it is very difficult to get a TT job straight out of school. I don't want to make too many assumptions about how much (or little) I'll be publishing in grad school, but the goal is certainly to do so as much as I can! Thanks!
Click to expand...

I did this too. It's true that its difficult to do but its not impossible. I applied to research postdocs, clinical postdocs, and tenure-track positions during internship and I lucked out with landing a TT position and happened to live in a state that didn't require postdoc hours. I made an agreement with a colleague where they supervised my teaching and research for a year (we were both fully licensed) as insurance in case I moved elsewhere (some, but not all, states allow teaching and/or research to count towards postdoc hours). I moved to another state and was able to get licensed using that informally supervised year. I teach and do research in a TT job 80% of the time and have a small cash only private practice one day per week (with a plan to increase to 2-3 over the summer). I personally think I'm living the dream, but its worth noting I'm not at, nor was I every shooting for, an R1 type institution.

All to say there are so many variables but like @Ollie123 said, everyone I know who has needed to make it work has been able to.
 
propsych said:
I just got the sense that it is very difficult to get a TT job straight out of school. I don't want to make too many assumptions about how much (or little) I'll be publishing in grad school, but the goal is certainly to do so as much as I can! Thanks!
Click to expand...

It's difficult if you're talking to experimental psychologists. Remember that the modal career path for health service psychologists is practice. And some of the super research focused folks are going into medical school positions, so the competition for psych department TT jobs is just not that bad compared to other areas of psych, and other disciplines. We have always had the lowest number of applications for clinical psych TT jobs at my university than any other area of psych.
 
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