How do your religious beliefs impact your views on medicine if at all?

[goldenwest]

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I'm not sure if this is legal, but the last time this was polled/discussed was in 2005 on a different sub-forum. I'm just curious what the general consensus of religious beliefs on this forums is and how your religious beliefs play in to how you view and execute medicine.

For Agnostics/Deists: How will the large amount of deaths you observe play out in your mind? Do you think viewing a large amount of deaths will polarize your views towards belief in an afterlife, atheism or will it have no affect?

For Christians/Mormons: Do you believe that God intended us to keep people alive so long? Most of Jesus's miracles are restorative instead of preservative - do you agree or disagree? Comments?

For Atheists: Do you think your views aid you in practicing medicine or does it limit your motivation? (I'm not implying that being atheistic limits motivation; it may add to it. I'd just like your opinion.)

For Other Religions: What impact does your religious faith have on your views about medicine?

 

[175961]

I'm not sure if this is legal, but the last time this was polled/discussed was in 2005 on a different sub-forum. I'm just curious what the general consensus of religious beliefs on this forums is and how your religious beliefs play in to how you view and execute medicine.

For Agnostics/Deists: How will the large amount of deaths you observe play out in your mind? Will you or will you not deliver consolation to the family with the bad news?

For Christians/Mormons: Do you believe that God intended us to keep people alive so long? Most of Jesus's miracles are restorative instead of preservative - do you agree or disagree? Comments?

For Atheists: Do you think your views aid you in practicing medicine or does it limit your motivation?

For Other Religions: What impact does your religious faith have on your views about medicine?

I thought mormons werent christians

 

[MilkmanAl]

My religious beliefs have nothing whatsoever to do with how I'll practice medicine.

 

[teddybear]

I will refuse to perform abortions unless it is absolutley necessary to save the mother's life.

I can't stop God's will but I will do everything in my power to save lives. This means no euthanasia.

 

[goldenwest]

I thought mormons werent christians

Were or weren't? I'm just grouping them together in that question because they both intend to follow Jesus's teachings. If Mormons are offended that I excluded them from the "Christian" group then I apologize; I didn't mean to offend.

 

[p30doc]

you forgot jews

 

[TooMuchResearch]

For the record, I prefer the term secular humanism over atheism. Since I rarely (if ever) ponder this topic, I cannot really say whether or not my views are affected.

 

[goldenwest]

you forgot jews

...and bhuddism
...and pantheism
...and mormonism
...and scientology
...and those whose God is SDN.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone by not explicitly listing your faith. I'd still love to hear your comments though.

 

[Bacchus]

I will refuse to perform abortions unless it is absolutley necessary to save the mother's life.

I can't stop God's will but I will do everything in my power to save lives. This means no euthanasia.

Respected, but if legally allowed (OR and WA), would you not provide your patient the means to end his or her own life in dignity and with autonomy granted he or she qualifies?

 

[teddybear]

Respected, but if legally allowed (OR and WA), would you not provide your patient the means to end his or her own life in dignity and with autonomy granted he or she qualifies?

I don't know. That's a very difficult issue.

 

[JA Prufrock]

For Atheists: Do you think your views aid you in practicing medicine or does it limit your motivation?

Pretty bad question. To imply that motivation is stronger in those who believe they are working for a higher power is pretty cynical.

 

[Caesar]

I will refuse to perform abortions unless it is absolutley necessary to save the mother's life.

I can't stop God's will but I will do everything in my power to save lives. This means no euthanasia.

This is how I feel as well. 👍

 

[Bacchus]

Pretty bad question. To imply that motivation is stronger in those who believe they are working for a higher power is pretty cynical.

I thought the same for agnostic/deist. I wouldn't walk into a waiting room and say, "Your husband died" and just walk away. I thought this was standard.

 

[goldenwest]

Pretty bad question. To imply that motivation is stronger in those who believe they are working for a higher power is pretty cynical.

Well I think it depends on how you read it. I asked if it aids or not... that seems pretty unbiased to me.

 

[Caesar]

Respected, but if legally allowed (OR and WA), would you not provide your patient the means to end his or her own life in dignity and with autonomy granted he or she qualifies?

I don't plan on going into an area where this is an issue, but no, I would certainly let them know that it is an option and if they wanted to do so I would refer them to someone who could help them, but I personally can't see myself writing a script for something I knew to be lethal.

 

[Chemist0157]

Chose the Christian option...

I don't think the real issue is whether God "intended" us to keep people alive as long as possible or not. As doctors, we should care about the QUALITY as well the LENGTH. I've had great grandparents who lived to be old (late 90s!), but those last months were rough on them. If a person is ready to pass, I see no reason not to take them off life support or medication (maybe just keep pain relievers or whatever). However, I can't see myself participating in doctor-assisted suicide. I'll let nature take its course rather than purposefully cause death. As far as abortion goes, I'll only perform them when the woman's life is in danger. Unless she is actually willing to take the risk for her child, that is.

What other issues do you think my faith would affect?

 

[Caesar]

Chose the Christian option...

I don't think the real issue is whether God "intended" us to keep people alive as long as possible or not. As doctors, we should care about the QUALITY as well the LENGTH. I've had great grandparents who lived to be old (late 90s!), but those last months were rough on them. If a person is ready to pass, I see no reason not to take them off life support or medication (maybe just keep pain relievers or whatever). However, I can't see myself participating in doctor-assisted suicide. I'll let nature take its course rather than purposefully cause death. As far as abortion goes, I'll only perform them when the woman's life is in danger. Unless she is actually willing to take the risk for her child, that is.

What other issues do you think my faith would affect?

You bring up an interesting point. I have no issues with withdrawing treatment but seem to have an issue with giving some terminal medication. I wonder why that is.

Maybe it is because if someone is on life support, they probably aren't alive, and if they are seeking physician assisted suicide they are well enough to ask for death. hmmm...

 

[Retsage]

As an atheist, I plan to walk into rooms, and simultaneously pull out the breathing tubes of recovering patients, all the while performing abortions on pregnant teenagers. When all that is said and done, I will remind the family of the recently deceased that there is no God and they'll never see their loved one again, while perhaps devouring the fetus for nutritional value.

 

[DrMattOglesby]

i really feel like everybody's response should be that the aspects of their religion (or lack thereof) that will influence their future medical practice would center around loving kindness and compassion. it is a good thing most all religions (as well as non-religious philosophies) help to accentuate these characteristics in us.

 

[Caesar]

Let's try to keep this thread on topic, limit the sarcasm please. We don't want this thread to go downhill, and be closed (or worse moved to SoPo).

 

[goldenwest]

As an atheist, I plan to walk into rooms, and simultaneously pull out the breathing tubes of recovering patients, all the while performing abortions on pregnant teenagers. When all that is said and done, I will remind the family of the recently deceased that there is no God and they'll never see their loved one again, while perhaps devouring the fetus for nutritional value.

I'm not sure what I said to prompt this sarcasm. Did I say something that seems derogatory towards atheists?

 

[Retsage]

You started off by questioning whether agnostics would console families (wtf?) followed by questioning whether atheists would stay motivated to care for people (wtf?).

 

[Bacchus]

You bring up an interesting point. I have no issues with withdrawing treatment but seem to have an issue with giving some terminal medication. I wonder why that is.

Maybe it is because if someone is on life support, they probably aren't alive, and if they are seeking physician assisted suicide they are well enough to ask for death. hmmm...

Your "well enough" equates to a terminal disease with prognosis of 6 months or less by law.

 

[goldenwest]

You started off by questioning whether agnostics would console families (wtf?) followed by questioning whether atheists would stay motivated to care for people (wtf?).

Okay, well I can agree with the multiple persons who have brought up that my question for agnostics was poorly phrased. What I was trying to get at was not whether or not they would say "I'm so sorry". I don't really think it's any doctor's place to bring up religion at such a time - I'm just wondering if viewing a large amount of deaths would cause agnostics faith to be polarized towards religious faith or atheism. I'll edit the question. As for atheists I wasn't trying to imply that they weren't motivated due to their views, I was simply asking their opinion as to whether they think the absence of religious views was an aid or detriment to their practice and if so how.

 

[Chemist0157]

Your "well enough" equates to a terminal disease with prognosis of 6 months or less by law.

In some states, lol. It's subjective.

 

[p30doc]

My religious beliefs will not play a part in my role as a physician. My personal morals and ethics do not come religion, nor do I think there is much of a place for religion in the practice of medicine. It is a discipline based in science not in theology. I think our medical decisions should be based upon scientific grounding.

 

[Bacchus]

In some states, lol. It's subjective.

Saying a physician's prognosis is "subjective" is undermining his or her ability. It is extremely hard to predict remaining times for life, but the prognosis is to be made by two separate physicians (from separate practices) under the law. All of my posts are regarding the laws in place now.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Clicked Christian. Don't really understand the question for my group as phrased.

Basically, I have my views on religion, and I have my views on how medicine SHOULD be practiced and what policy SHOULD be in certain cases where the ethics is murky. Given the chance, I will argue in favor of policies that reflect my beliefs to become law. However, in cases where the law and I disagree on what the appropriate course of action is, I will do what is required of me by law, because I am obligated to do so.

Incidentally, I will not go into a specialty that would require me to perform abortions.

 

[DrMattOglesby]

My religious beliefs will not play a part in my role as a physician. My personal morals and ethics do not come religion, nor do I think there is much of a place for religion in the practice of medicine. It is a discipline based in science not in theology. I think our medical decisions should be based upon scientific grounding.

aha, good point redrumi 👍
i think the purpose of this thread may have been to question the motivational factors of religion when it comes to ethical issues? I'm really not sure.
But anyways, I think it is still good to be well versed in different religions as many of our future patients will hold strong beliefs in all types of philosophies. So again, I vote for "cultural competency" and the need to respect the beliefs of others. Then looking beyond their beliefs and focusing on the shared things such as being human and prone to disease. That should be all we need to muster up the compassion necessary to become highly effective clinicians.

 

[RySerr21]

religion has never been a part of my life, and it will never be a part of/influence my medical practices. It never even crosses my mind...its as simple as that.

If I am ever in a situation where my pateints religious beliefs cause a problem/dilemma as far as medical treatment, then I'll do my best to work it out with the patient and family letting them know what I feel is the best option for their health. If they object due to conflict with their religious beliefs, then that is unfortuante, but what am i gonna do?

 

[GoSpursGo]

My religious beliefs will not play a part in my role as a physician. My personal morals and ethics do not come religion, nor do I think there is much of a place for religion in the practice of medicine. It is a discipline based in science not in theology. I think our medical decisions should be based upon scientific grounding.

I don't think anyone would argue that medical decisions should be based upon scientific grounding. However, that doesn't mean that a doctor shouldn't pray for God's guidance if he/she believes that He is capable of helping the doctor. Furthermore, some patients specifically request religious doctors who believe in the power of prayer.

A question for the Atheists/Agnostics: what do you do if a patient's family asks you to pray with them?

 

[DrYoda]

A question for the Atheists/Agnostics: what do you do if a patient's family asks you to pray with them?

I am willing to help find another physician/staff member who is of their religion and is willing to pray with them. But I myself will not, I see me pretending to pray as making a mockery of their beliefs. So I would refuse, out of respect for their belief.

 

[RySerr21]

A question for the Atheists/Agnostics: what do you do if a patient's family asks you to pray with them?

I would pray with them. It doesnt really matter that I dont think its going to do anything, cuz we arent praying for me. If it has some psychological benefit for the patient that might help them in recovery, then i'm not gonna deny them that.

 

[Caesar]

I undestand that, but to me it is making someone die vs. forcing them to stay alive. Haha I guess I don't really want to do either.

 

[goldenwest]

Well, I'm going to go on a small tangent in response to redrumi's comment. I feel that there is a difference between science and the scientific worldview, but they are very often grouped together. If someone asks if I believe in science I assume that they are asking if I believe that truth can be gained by testable, repeatable, falsifiable experiments, and I will answer "yes" of course. If someone asks if I believe in the scientific worldview then I assume that they are asking if I believe that the ONLY way truth can be gained is by testable, repeatable, falsifiable experiments, and I will answer "no". Now I'm not sure how I could reasonably define how that belief plays into the way i will practice medicine, but I feel it's something to consider.

 

[Caesar]

My religious beliefs will not play a part in my role as a physician. My personal morals and ethics do not come religion, nor do I think there is much of a place for religion in the practice of medicine. It is a discipline based in science not in theology. I think our medical decisions should be based upon scientific grounding.

I disagree with this. It is my experience that many patients find comfort in religion and whether I share theirs or not.

Case in point there is a family from India on my floor now and many of the staff have prayed with them and tried to facilitate them being able to celebrate their traditions while in the hospital. Religion is one of the only things that people have that doesn't have to change while they are in the hospital. That being said, I wouldn't initiate anything religious in nature.

 

[DrMattOglesby]

I undestand that, but to me it is making someone die vs. forcing them to stay alive. Haha I guess I don't really want to do either.

isn't there a "do nothing option" ? ...similar to DNR orders???

 

[Caesar]

I would pray with them. It doesnt really matter that I dont think its going to do anything, cuz we arent praying for me. If it has some psychological benefit for the patient that might help them in recovery, then i'm not gonna deny them that.

This is a very respectable position to hold. 👍

 

[Caesar]

isn't there a "do nothing option" ? ...similar to DNR orders???

Yeah, dang. I didn't plan on thinking this through today...

 

[Chemist0157]

Saying a physician's prognosis is "subjective" is undermining his or her ability. It is extremely hard to predict remaining times for life, but the prognosis is to be made by two separate physicians (from separate practices) under the law. All of my posts are regarding the laws in place now.

I wasn't clear, or you misunderstood. I meant it's subjective amongst states because of different legislation (or lack thereof). I know Washington recently voted to make 6 months the limit, but that's not true for all 50 states. That's all I meant.

 

[DrMattOglesby]

Keep up the good replies/posts guys--I'm gaining a lot from this discussion 👍

 

[Caesar]

Yeah, dang. I didn't plan on thinking this through today...

I guess what I see is that for DNR I am not doing anything to harm, just not doing something to help. Same with pulling life support. They aren't alive without intervention.

Physician assisted suicide seems more like I am doing the harm, regardless of the wishes of the patient. I also would struggle with the informed consent part. If you are terminal, are you really thinking about what's best? I must stress I am not against the practice, I just don't see myself personally assisting.

 

[p30doc]

A question for the Atheists/Agnostics: what do you do if a patient's family asks you to pray with them?

I'm a somewhat atheistic jew, I would pray with them. Hope and positiveness can sometimes go a long way. If they wanted me to participate in something like a prayer which helped put the patient/family more at ease why not? It doesn't mean I have to agree with them or their beliefs. I am not there to judge their religious beliefs, I am there to help the patient.

 

[p30doc]

I disagree with this. It is my experience that many patients find comfort in religion and whether I share theirs or not.

Case in point there is a family from India on my floor now and many of the staff have prayed with them and tried to facilitate them being able to celebrate their traditions while in the hospital. Religion is one of the only things that people have that doesn't have to change while they are in the hospital. That being said, I wouldn't initiate anything religious in nature.

I agree with you, and I think the patients religious/cultural beliefs need to be respected and upheld. When I said I don't think there is a place for religion in medicine I meant on the doctor's side of things while making medical decisions.

 

[aebvd97]

OP, why would you group agnosticism and deism together? Deists believe in God, while Agnostics believe it is impossible to know the truth in terms of God, religion, etc. So I don't agree with you placing them together in such a way; seeing many deaths as a deist shouldn't polarize my views towards any other religious faith or towards atheism because Deism is a religious faith, just as Christianity and Judaism is, so why not ask the same question of them??

 

[Caesar]

I agree with you, and I think the patients religious/cultural beliefs need to be respected and upheld. When I said I don't think there is a place for religion in medicine I meant on the doctor's side of things while making medical decisions.

Ah, well I agree with you for the most part, but I do think physicians should be able to refuse non-emergent treatment if it goes against their beliefs, provided they can refer the patient to someone else. Mostly this is for Abortion and Physician Assisted suicide. I guess maybe for Birth control but personally I am okay with Birth control.

 

[goldenwest]

OP, why would you group agnosticism and deism together? Deists believe in God, while Agnostics believe it is impossible to know the truth in terms of God, religion, etc. So I don't agree with you placing them together in such a way; seeing many deaths as a deist shouldn't polarize my views towards any other religious faith or towards atheism because Deism is a religious faith, just as Christianity and Judaism is, so why not ask the same question of them??

My question for Christians dealt specifically with Jesus whom Deists do not necessarily believe in. Many Deists with belief in a God that created the world but is either relatively or completely absent aren't sure how that view plays out in death. Is there or is there not an afterlife etc. Since my Deist/Agnosticism question dealt specifically with that question I grouped them together.

 

[GoSpursGo]

👍👍👍 Great discussion guys. I'm really glad to see that the people here on SDN can keep this conversation civil.

Even if a doctor doesn't have any personal religious beliefs, on some level religion will always be deeply entwined with medicine, simply because both medicine and religion lie at the intersection between life and death. Medicine is focused on trying to keep people from crossing over that line as long as possible, and religion is focused on uncovering what happens after that line is crossed (and, in cases of prayer, can be focused on keeping people from crossing the line as well).

Question for everyone (though I encourage Agnostics/Atheists to keep answering the last question I posed as well): How do you go about trying to convince a Jehovah's Witness to accept a blood transfusion? DO you try to change their minds and compromise their religious beliefs for the sake of keeping them alive?

As for me personally, I'd probably say something to the effect of, "you do realize that by refusing this blood transfusion, you greatly increase your chances of dying. Taking this blood transfusion could save your life." But if they then refused treatment, I wouldn't bring it up again.

 

[disorder]

Yes and no.

Will I necessarily let my religion dictate what I can and can't do for a patient? Depends.

Will the I let the altruistic values my religion has instilled in me influence my mindset and approach to medicine? Absolutely.

Will I be preaching to my patients about what I believe? Absolutely not.

Honestly, ethics are tough. Religion is never absolutely clear when it comes to modern ethics, especially in medicine. Take, for example, abortion. Killing bad. But, when does life start? No one can answer this question. Religion does not dictate this. However, religious experts tend to dictate this and put forth their ideology across the masses and the masses follow. I will not let religious experts dictate what I do and what I don't do. I will figure that out for myself.

Ah, well I agree with you for the most part, but I do think physicians should be able to refuse non-emergent treatment if it goes against their beliefs, provided they can refer the patient to someone else. Mostly this is for Abortion and Physician Assisted suicide. I guess maybe for Birth control but personally I am okay with Birth control.

100% correct.

It's no different if an atheistic physician feels uncomfortable with performing an abortion. You can't force yourself to do something you are not morally behind or comfortable with.

 

[DrYoda]

As for me personally, I'd probably say something to the effect of, "you do realize that by refusing this blood transfusion, you greatly increase your chances of dying. Taking this blood transfusion could save your life." But if they then refused treatment, I wouldn't bring it up again.

This is exactly what I would do as well. Make sure they understand the risks, then leave it be.