How does med school view applicants with intentions for MD/MBA w/ a bus minor?

[fastfingers]

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I've been very undecided on this, so I was hoping for some opinion here. How would med schools perceive an applicant with a business minor? I want to get an MD/MBA, but reading some past post makes it sound like that Med schools do not want students who are considering MBA cause they're afraid they would go into consulting, etc. rather than help with the shortage of doctors.

Also, I wanted to get an MBA because during my job shadows, I noticed how much money influenced what a doctor can or can not do. I was hoping an MBA can help me maximize the amount of care I can give by understanding the financial aspect of health care.

However, my ultimate goal is to get into med school so I would hate for a med school to see my business minor and know my intentions of getting an MBA and automatically not grant me an interview because they'll think I'm doing it for the money and not to care for patients.

I've read from past post that some interviews from residentcy or med school look unfavorably on students going after a MBA degree.

Has anybody here had experience of holding a business minor or showing intentions of going for an MD/MBA and how that affected their chances of being accepted into medical school? Is there a difference in how top tier schools (high ranked based on the research ranking) perceived an intention for MBA versus how lower tier schools viewed the business minor?

Comments from anybody?

Thanks.

 

[AdmiralChz]

I've been very undecided on this, so I was hoping for some opinion here. How would med schools perceive an applicant with a business minor? I want to get an MD/MBA, but reading some past post makes it sound like that Med schools do not want students who are considering MBA cause they're afraid they would go into consulting, etc. rather than help with the shortage of doctors.

Also, I wanted to get an MBA because during my job shadows, I noticed how much money influenced what a doctor can or can not do. I was hoping an MBA can help me maximize the amount of care I can give by understanding the financial aspect of health care.

However, my ultimate goal is to get into med school so I would hate for a med school to see my business minor and know my intentions of getting an MBA and automatically not grant me an interview because they'll think I'm doing it for the money and not to care for patients.

I've read from past post that some interviews from residentcy or med school look unfavorably on students going after a MBA degree.

Has anybody here had experience of holding a business minor or showing intentions of going for an MD/MBA and how that affected their chances of being accepted into medical school? Is there a difference in how top tier schools (high ranked based on the research ranking) perceived an intention for MBA versus how lower tier schools viewed the business minor?

Comments from anybody?

Thanks.

Actually, a few medical schools (like UVA) are jumping on the MD/MBA bandwagon because they see the potential for $$$ from corporate support from the MBA side.

That being said, however, this cycle only 1 school I applied to out of about 15 had the option to specifically apply for the MD/MBA program. For the others, you apply once you're accepted for regular MD.

It's a good idea, I'd call a few schools your interested in and see if you can't set up a meeting or chat with them on the phone about this. Keep in mind that I believe for most programs you will also have to have the GMAT in addition to the MCAT for the MD side. You also seem to have taken the business "preqreqs" (loosely defined as stats, econ, and accounting) with your minor, so you're covered there. Good luck!

 

[GonnaHappen]

I mentioned at one of my interviews that I was interested in an MD/MBA degree and it didn't go over too well.

It was the only place that I was flat out rejected post-interview.

 

[fastfingers]

Well right now, I feel like it's less of a problem in finding out how to get into MD/MBA rather than knowing how med schools will see of me.

I wouldn't want to get a business minor or show intentions of MD/MBA if the school sees it as a negative thing on my application. Does anybody have experience in this?

 

[fastfingers]

I mentioned at one of my interviews that I was interested in an MD/MBA degree and it didn't go over too well.

It was the only place that I was flat out rejected post-interview.

did you have a business minor going into med school interview? if so, how did that go during the interview?

Also, can I use an MBA as a clinical physicians and just have the MBA to better understand the financial aspect or do people with MD/MBA all seem to go into strictly the business of medicine rather than incorporating business knowledge into caring for patients.

 

[shindotp]

I'm curious about this as well (tag).

 

[witness23]

in real life i learned to say as less as possible. if you write extra essays or say extra words and if it rubs the person in the wrong way, then that hurts your chances. i would just prep for md. you can always apply internally with no difference.

ive talked a md/mba from penn/wharton and the acceptance rate into the program is very high. average salary of a doctor is still higher than of anyone elses (including ceo - key word, average). he said always get into md first and then apply mba. you may find the mba useless or still relevant. its a source of endowment for the school

 

[drizzt3117]

I'm not entirely sure about how it would go regarding MD/MBA, b/c I already had a MBA (in health care management) while applying to med school. I'll definitely be looking to leverage my degree from the industry side (medical device/technology) as opposed to health policy/administration.

 

[AdmiralChz]

did you have a business minor going into med school interview? if so, how did that go during the interview?

Also, can I use an MBA as a clinical physicians and just have the MBA to better understand the financial aspect or do people with MD/MBA all seem to go into strictly the business of medicine rather than incorporating business knowledge into caring for patients.

Interesting... but as a business minor you should know that you don't need an MBA to understand personal finance situations.

MD/MBA often go into medical consulting. I really don't want to open an SDN can of worms bring that up, but its true.

 

[drumboy]

I applied this cycle, and my undergrad degree is in Business Management (Entrepreneurship). One of my interviewers at one school was really interested in my degree, and she seemed like she was trying to sell their MD/MBA program to me. Very interesting.

Another interviewer at a different school thought my degree was an interesting choice, and said, "I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around how your application all fits together," after I talked about my business research.

Other schools didn't really care much specifically about my business degree.

I'm currently waitlisted at both of these schools. However, I would venture to say that my business background, and the research I did in business, is what got me to this point. Both of those schools are very difficult to get in, and I think an interest in business can help to differentiate an applicant.

All in all, it can help and it can hurt. IMHO, the good outweighs the bad.

 

[fastfingers]

How would you say MBA would help in a health care setting? I know a chief of surgeon who got an MD/MBA and I think he mentioned that his MBA helped him in his job.

 

[nontrdgsbuiucmd]

Depends if you intend to be a clinician, or for example the head of a department who also has clinical responsibilities. If the latter, a solid understanding of management theory, finance, marketing, etc would likely help.

I mentioned my MBA, top-tier school, somewhere in the application, it really seemed to be ignored or seen as irrelevant to the med admissions process. This surprised me, but that's part of the deal with these degrees -- if you went to Wharton, for example, and are speaking with someone who isn't familiar with the school, there's no way to explain it in a reasonable conversation.

 

[txprodigal]

if you're worried about it, don't mention it. i think you can apply to most mba programs during your first or second year of med school anyway

 

[GonnaHappen]

did you have a business minor going into med school interview? if so, how did that go during the interview?

Also, can I use an MBA as a clinical physicians and just have the MBA to better understand the financial aspect or do people with MD/MBA all seem to go into strictly the business of medicine rather than incorporating business knowledge into caring for patients.

Having a business minor won't hurt you at all, i don't think.

To answer your question, I didn't have a business minor. I had taken a handful of business classes but that was about it. The school "claimed" to be very accommodating to their students if they wanted to branch out and get another degree concurrently (Phd, MPH, MHA, MBA, whatever) but I guess it was all talk. I saw my interviewer write "MBA" in REALLY big letters at the top of the paper she was taking notes on and underline it a bunch of times when I brought it up. At the time I was trying to figure out if that was a good or bad thing. I now know.

And I know of a couple of physicians personally who have MBAs and use them in running their practices. One is an OB/GYN and the other is an internist. I talked to them both at length about it and they said they are grateful for the education the MBA gave them and would do it all over again if given the chance.

Interesting... but as a business minor you should know that you don't need an MBA to understand personal finance situations.

MD/MBA often go into medical consulting. I really don't want to open an SDN can of worms bring that up, but its true.

The consulting thing may be true (I don't really know) but an MBA can be very useful if you go in to private practice. I mean, at the end of the day you will be running a business. That is, if it is YOUR practice. There are some family practice docs that make A LOT of money while many do not. A lot of this comes down to the way they run their businesses. I mean, they teach us how to be doctors in med school, not business managers/owners.

And sure, you dont need an MBA to understand personal finance but running a business is a whole different ball game. I'm not saying that an MBA is necessary by any means but I'm sure it can help.

in real life i learned to say as less as possible. if you write extra essays or say extra words and if it rubs the person in the wrong way, then that hurts your chances. i would just prep for md. you can always apply internally with no difference.

ive talked a md/mba from penn/wharton and the acceptance rate into the program is very high. average salary of a doctor is still higher than of anyone elses (including ceo - key word, average). he said always get into md first and then apply mba. you may find the mba useless or still relevant. its a source of endowment for the school

I think witness has the right idea. Focus on getting in first and then worry about the logistics of the MBA later.

 

[drizzt3117]

The consulting thing may be true (I don't really know) but an MBA can be very useful if you go in to private practice. I mean, at the end of the day you will be running a business. That is, if it is YOUR practice. There are some family practice docs that make A LOT of money while many do not. A lot of this comes down to the way they run their businesses. I mean, they teach us how to be doctors in med school, not business managers/owners.

And sure, you dont need an MBA to understand personal finance but running a business is a whole different ball game. I'm not saying that an MBA is necessary by any means but I'm sure it can help.

To be honest, MBAs are about networking, team dynamics, and building relationships. Yes you do learn principles of business, but that isn't really the point. Skills that you learn during business school are definitely transferable and useful to your future career as a physician, but as far as learning skills to run a practice? Not so much.

 

[fastfingers]

Thanks for all the responses.

I think it seems pretty clear from reading this forum that showing intentions of getting a MD/MBA is a bad idea.

However, I'm still not clear if I should say I'm a business minor. I can always declare my minor my senior year. Is that a good idea? Should I hide my business minor during med school interview? I'm afraid they'll think my business minor lead me to getting an MBA.

 

[litconsultant]

How does future MBA goals hurt you when most schools have a section for the joint MD/MBA degree on their sites? Aren't they looking for applicants to those programs?

 

[MrGold]

I'm happy you brought this topic up Fastfings.

I am currenly applying to medical schools. In May, I will graduate with a Bach. of Sci. in Business Admin. with a major in Health care management and Biology. I am applying to several MD/MBA's. At those schools, I believe it is safe to say interviewers were excited and intrigued to discuss my interests. Like you, I want to practice medicine first and I have done my best to portray this.

Despite these interviewers, other interviewers at non-MD/MBA have insisted on discussing my intentions. I absolutely believe it has been a negative. I often found myself on the defensive (of course, I did by best not to seem like it); but, it was simply inevitable. I was rejected post-interview from one school. In all honesty, I thought it was my best interview; however, it seemed the interview was so excited about my business background that he was trying to convince me to apply to MD/MBA programs. I still do not think it was his place to decide my future on those grounds but it happens.

All in all, it's a toss-up like you have concluded from these posts. As long as you understand your personal intentions and how your application will fit together, I believe it will work out if you are a good MD applicant (w/ regards to numbers). If not, it may be best just to concentrate on the MD for now.

Good luck with everything, FF!

 

[fastfingers]

I think I may not show my intentions of getting a MBA or even show my intentions of being a business minor (i don't have to declare).

However, during the med school application, do I have to list all classes I intend to take? Since I intend to take business classes my senior year, wouldn't it be obvious that I want to minor in business? If I say classes I intend to take and don't take it, could I get my admission revoked? or does it depend on what classes I decide not to take (such as biochem vs a business elective).

Thanks.

 

[witness23]

I think I may not show my intentions of getting a MBA or even show my intentions of being a business minor (i don't have to declare).

However, during the med school application, do I have to list all classes I intend to take? Since I intend to take business classes my senior year, wouldn't it be obvious that I want to minor in business? If I say classes I intend to take and don't take it, could I get my admission revoked? or does it depend on what classes I decide not to take (such as biochem vs a business elective).

Thanks.

i dont think you have to list what courses your are taking the semesters during app

 

[fastfingers]

I thought I can still list courses such as biochem or cell bio or genetics in case the school requires me to take those courses.

 

[Upgrayedd]

Coming from a business background and going through the whole application cycle, I really doubt ANYONE interviewing/reviewing your file will look poorly on an interest in business/finance/accounting unless you frame it HORRIBLY (i.e. your a sociopath who wants to find the way to make the most money possible).

Any clinician these days knows that most doctors are dreadfully unaware of the financial aspects of medicine which have been pervading the industry for a while, and recently are beginning to impead the ability of a clinician to practice if they can not manage insurance/finance issues properly.

A solid background and working knowledge of this is something that can either be picked up BEFORE med school or taken as night classes later in your career, but you DO NOT learn it in med school. In some ways, its a better pre-req than biochem or genetics since you repeate all of that!

 

[IveyGirl]

Coming from a business background and going through the whole application cycle, I really doubt ANYONE interviewing/reviewing your file will look poorly on an interest in business/finance/accounting unless you frame it HORRIBLY (i.e. your a sociopath who wants to find the way to make the most money possible).

Any clinician these days knows that most doctors are dreadfully unaware of the financial aspects of medicine which have been pervading the industry for a while, and recently are beginning to impead the ability of a clinician to practice if they can not manage insurance/finance issues properly.

A solid background and working knowledge of this is something that can either be picked up BEFORE med school or taken as night classes later in your career, but you DO NOT learn it in med school. In some ways, its a better pre-req than biochem or genetics since you repeate all of that!

I completely agree. I'm currently doing a combined degree with undergrad business and medical science at the top business school in Canada, and I think it's more about building skills and learning about stuff that most science kids don't know. It makes you different and more able to adapt and manage a diverse range of situations, not simply make you appear money-hungry and selfish.

However, with that said, I have a question for you guys. I'm looking to apply for Harvard's MD-PhD program in collaboration with MIT, I believe that's the MSTP-HST program at HMS. What do you think are the chances of getting in with a business background (along with a degree in the undergraduate medical science) while being an applicant from Canada? I'm retaking my MCAT this summer - my first one was a 36R (14-14-8) [verbal screwed me] - so I'm thinking this summer should be better since I barely studied last summer due to full-time lab work.

However, if anyone has a realistic view of how Harvard or even John's Hopkins MD-PhD programs look for an applicant like me, please let me know your thoughts.

PS - all of my experiences and client projects in business have been in the non-profit or health sector so I hope to leverage those experiences and differentiate myself from the business stereotype in that way.

 

[fastfingers]

I do agree that the MBA would help me a lot, but from what a lot of post seem to indicate, many schools like to see it in the worst possible situation and rather take a safer bet with somebody who doesnt have business classes.

 

[Upgrayedd]

Ivey - How the @$@! did you get a 8 in verbal?!?!? Having an off day??? j/k! 36's are pretty damn good, some people might tell you not to retake because "you could get a lower score", but if you got 2 14's, it probably means you pretty much know everything cold, so go retake that mother! Read a lot FOR FUN before that test (novels and Scientific American), it helped me get a 13 in VR and it wasn't painful at all!

You're probably fine on the MD side, but the PhD side means you need some really significant research experience since the competition for the MTSP slots at the tip top schools is rather fierce. A 38 MCAT and a ugrad publication or two as well as a good letter from a research advisor would go a long way if you want to "lock it in". Even without that, you've probably got a shot, lol!

Finally, fastfingers, you really arn't making sense to me. Med schools love diverse backgrounds, and bio majors get descriminated AGAINST!

Business = diverse

Q.E.D.

Want more, ok, here ya go.

In the past, BUSINESS was the way to go to make money (until like 8 months ago really...) med school vs. consulting/ibanking was a bad decision for ones lifetime earning potential since you get approx 8 years of debt/earning nothing while those fields are in 6 figures already. Compounding interest is a bitch to fight too (especially when your DEBT is compounding!)!!!

It is a pretty easy argument to make from that perspective that you are going into medicine because you want to BE A DOCTOR, not because you want $$$. All there is to it.

This year, sure, things could be different, since if you said that exact line you might get laughed at as your intervier's ibanking friends have had to return their 3rd cars and disenroll their children from 20k/yr private schools. But whatever, I still think the point stands...

I think what I'm trying to say in the end is that there is nothing wrong in showing interest in an MD/MBA, but remember, it is the iceing on the cake in some ways. If you focus on that and neglect your clinical motivations in any aspect of the application process, it will sink your app. Therefore, give it the relative weight that it merrits...

Finally, some carefulness and tact might be needed. I'm sure their are some MD "suits" who never did a residency and now manage clinicians who resent "that type of person", so I think there is merit in treading with caution, but no need to totally avoid the subject.

 

[witness23]

I completely agree. I'm currently doing a combined degree with undergrad business and medical science at the top business school in Canada, and I think it's more about building skills and learning about stuff that most science kids don't know. It makes you different and more able to adapt and manage a diverse range of situations, not simply make you appear money-hungry and selfish.

However, with that said, I have a question for you guys. I'm looking to apply for Harvard's MD-PhD program in collaboration with MIT, I believe that's the MSTP-HST program at HMS. What do you think are the chances of getting in with a business background (along with a degree in the undergraduate medical science) while being an applicant from Canada? I'm retaking my MCAT this summer - my first one was a 36R (14-14-8) [verbal screwed me] - so I'm thinking this summer should be better since I barely studied last summer due to full-time lab work.

However, if anyone has a realistic view of how Harvard or even John's Hopkins MD-PhD programs look for an applicant like me, please let me know your thoughts.

PS - all of my experiences and client projects in business have been in the non-profit or health sector so I hope to leverage those experiences and differentiate myself from the business stereotype in that way.

ask the physician scientist forums, but the canadian thing might be nail in the coffin as NIH only funds US citizens

 

[fastfingers]

uppergrayedd: I mean, you said it doesn't make sense why it should worry and I also agree with you that there's a lot of business in medicine, but unfortunately from reading from other responses, sometimes interview adcoms can assume for the worse.

 

[Podalarius]

I made my intentions to get an MD/MBA very clear on all my applications (except Hopkins, where it wasn't an option) - Harvard and Dartmouth encourage students to apply for the MBA while applying to medical school, so I can't imagine they would frown upon being interested in their programs. Pritzker has a scholarship for MD/MBA students, and Penn frequently mentioned that Wharton doesn't require business experience for its MD/MBA students (you can apply as a medical student at Penn), and Yale's dean of admissions is a Yale MD/MBA. I'm not a business major/minor, and I'm more interested in the health policy options for MBAs (which is supported by my coursework/ECs), so it's possible of course that my interviewers were less concerned about my becoming a consultant.

 

[fastfingers]

Would you say that some schools were more encouraging of MD/MBA. If you could do it again, which schools would you have mentioned MD/MBA interest and which schools would you leave it out? Or would you say that you would leave it out for all schools.

 

[LizzyM]

Many physicians do the MBA after residency and after some work experience. Many of the best MBA programs don't want students without work experinece so you might consider that in your plans. Those I know with MBA degrees have ended up in administration of group practices with very, very little time devoted to patient care. If that floats your boat...

On the other hand, you don't need an MBA to deliver cost-effective care to patients.

 

[fastfingers]

I always figured that if I went to school for the last 16 years of my life, I might as well go an extra year, get an extra degree and open up more opportunities. Would doing an MD/MBA degree limit my knowledge on patient care? Do they teach more administrative stuff instead of some of the sciences?

 

[LizzyM]

I always figured that if I went to school for the last 16 years of my life, I might as well go an extra year, get an extra degree and open up more opportunities. Would doing an MD/MBA degree limit my knowledge on patient care? Do they teach more administrative stuff instead of some of the sciences?

You get a Master of Business Administration if you want to administer a business. Do you want to open up the opportinities that present themselves to those who have had training in finance, budgets & accounting, personnel, marketing, health policy, and technology assessment? The MD/MBA is a regular medical degree with additional time spent on business administration.

Being the managing partner of a group practice can be a full time job that leaves little time for patient care (maybe a half day per week in an outpatient setting).

Many people hold off, get their feet wet in practice administration and then go back for the MBA. Some schools offer executive MBA programs that meet one weekend a month (or a similar arrangement) for working professionals and these programs are pretty popular with mid-career docs.

 

[IveyGirl]

Ivey - How the @$@! did you get a 8 in verbal?!?!? Having an off day??? j/k! 36's are pretty damn good, some people might tell you not to retake because "you could get a lower score", but if you got 2 14's, it probably means you pretty much know everything cold, so go retake that mother! Read a lot FOR FUN before that test (novels and Scientific American), it helped me get a 13 in VR and it wasn't painful at all!

You're probably fine on the MD side, but the PhD side means you need some really significant research experience since the competition for the MTSP slots at the tip top schools is rather fierce. A 38 MCAT and a ugrad publication or two as well as a good letter from a research advisor would go a long way if you want to "lock it in". Even without that, you've probably got a shot, lol!

Haha (late reply, I know) but yeah... apparently I'm bad at verbal despite daily multiple long readings in biz school + plenty of case exams lasting 4 hours with a 20 page Harvard Case. @_@ But somehow i think it might have to do with the way I read. I like to take in details and memorize everything I read while I read it, so I guess it takes longer and when I do passages, I don't memorize, yet I read too fast to really see what the author was talking about. :/ No excuses, but that and the fact that I didn't do any practice for that section, assuming it'd be easy. lol. my bad.

Re-taking on the 17 of this month... i.e. in EIGHT DAYS! Wish me luck, I'd better kill it this time. 🙂

Really REALLY hoping for an MD at least (MD/PhD would be fantastic) from a top tier like Harvard or JHU, but I'm wondering if the Canadian factor will kill me. As a int'l applicant, I'm competing for WAY less spots, which may be difficult. 🙁 I guess I'll have to ramp up the lab work. I submitted a paper transcript last summer but it got rejected 1/2 since one of the reviewers was a competitor and gave us a subjective review. 🙁 I'm pushing my PI to resubmit. lol.

All I can really think about is my MCAT at this point, but I know Harvard is really going big on the MD/MBA program.

WISH ME LUCK!