how does your school protect you from scut work?

[smq123]

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Exactly. I don't learn anything from any REAL scut. I'm like "who is this random person...who I've never seen or heard of? Why can't YOU do it, since it's your job? But fine, I'll do it, get it over with, and forget about it completely." Ex: writing a discharge note on someone I've never seen or heard of...

Wow, the med students in this thread sure are fond of the "BUT I'M HERE TO LEARN!!!!" excuse...when it's convenient for them.

Do you think that you'll never be expected to cover "random" patients as a resident? You think you'll never get paged about a patient that you've never laid eyes on before, and did not admit? What do you think residents on cross-cover do all night long?

I'm in an outpatient heavy specialty, but sometimes I'm the only physician in the clinic available to talk to the triage nurse. In that case, I'm making clinical decisions on a patient that I have never heard of, spoken to, or laid eyes on. But hey, it has to get done.

And when I'm coming on service, and discharging a patient that has been there for 3 weeks, do you think it's acceptable for me to page the resident who was on service before me and say, "Hey...so, it's my first day on service. And Mr. Jones? Well...could you dictate the discharge summary for me? Because he was here for 3 weeks and I don't have time to go 3 weeks worth of progress notes. Thanks!" Uh...no. I have to bite the bullet and sift through the chart and dictate the summary. Does it suck? Yeah. Do I have a choice? Not really!

So if that's your definition of "REAL" scut, and your reasoning for why you don't think you should be doing it as a med student....what's your excuse going to be when you're a resident and it's your JOB to do it?

 

[LifeLeaf]

I always just found the residents who were the best teachers, and did everything they asked including scut, because the way I see it we're helping each other out. Thats really the best way to go. If your residents find they can trust you to do the small things they will let you do more important stuff like draw ABG's and assist in line placements. Of course it depends on how interested you are in learning those things.

Of course I've also had to do stuff like call to make appts etc and fill out paperwork, but my residents always appreciated it and made sure to let it be known on evals. Medicine is really a teamwork gig. You can't expect people to take time out to teach you, and then not pitch in to help with their work. Maybe thats just the mentality at our school... our hospitals have almost no ancillary support like blood draws/line teams, but then again we match well because our students are known for hitting the ground running being able to operate at the level of a resident day 1.

 

[Bacchus]

Why not? When we all round together on all of the patients, pay attention to everyone. Unless you plan to only treat patients with diabetes but not those with hypertension, then there's something to learn from a variety of patients on a given service.

When you're a resident, you'll be rounding on a lot of patients you don't know. For Thanksgiving weekend (which I'll be working every day of that weekend, while the students have a 4 day weekend), I'll be rounding on all of my patients and all of the patients on another service. I don't know any of them, and I'll be picking it up on the fly as we round.

You could practice that sort of thing as a student, or you can be "that resident" who just doesn't get it.

Serious question:

What would be the expectation if formal rounding DOES NOT occur? I did medicine at a location where every other patient was assigned to a different hospitalist. I tried to jot down notes at sign-out for patients on my team's list, but I usually never saw those patients that weren't mine. The random CEs or lyte followups was what I listened for because it saved the intern some time if I could do those while he finished his notes.

As an aside, when I was asked to write a note on someone I didn't know specifically, it was helpful. I was forced to read the chart and search for information needed because I hadn't done their intake like my patients. I don't find this to be scut work, but maybe that's just me.

 

[tco]

I've had attendings ask for me to go get their coffee. I told them I would if they buy me one. It's gone over smoothly most of the time.

 

[45408]

Serious question:

What would be the expectation if formal rounding DOES NOT occur? I did medicine at a location where every other patient was assigned to a different hospitalist. I tried to jot down notes at sign-out for patients on my team's list, but I usually never saw those patients that weren't mine. The random CEs or lyte followups was what I listened for because it saved the intern some time if I could do those while he finished his notes.

Expectations are highly variable, so it's usually best to ask or at least err on the side of doing more than you think they want you to do. I did a medicine rotation like that too, and there were plenty of patients I never saw. It was an awkward system, but I worked hard for the residents and got a good eval.

As an aside, when I was asked to write a note on someone I didn't know specifically, it was helpful. I was forced to read the chart and search for information needed because I hadn't done their intake like my patients. I don't find this to be scut work, but maybe that's just me.

I remember my favorite day at the aforementioned medicine rotation was when our morning conference was canceled, and the intern asked me to go see a few more of her patients. I had a chance to read through the chart, figure things out, come up with a plan, write a note, and not have to follow someone around like a lost puppy.

If you're just scribbling down crappy notes because you have no time to come up with a decent note, then it does border on scut, but if you're given time to go see patients you don't know and come up with your own plan, then it's a very realistic experience for cross-coverage.

 

[2012mdc]

But...do residents really expect you to know random patients that is not yours to follow? At least, that's never happened to me. I only know info on the patients assigned, so that random dude/chick I wrote a note on was all based on computer/chart notes. I didn't learn anything, it was more of "Meh, copy down this stuff so things get done faster and we all can go home"

You should know enough about every patient on the service where you're comfortable looking through the chart and writing discharge summaries. I've helped write discharge summaries for patients that weren't mine (classmates were in subspecialty clinic, OR, whatever).

Unless it's your 1st day on the service or the patient is a rock that doesn't get rounded on/discussed much then you should know a decent amount about every patient on the census. That is the best time to learn because you have less responsibilities and carry less patients so you have more time to focus on learning medicine.

I can understand why some of the more senior people on this thread are having the reactions they are. I don't know how it got to the point where discharge summaries became scut.

There are schools where every new call you drop your old patients and pick up new ones. If you disregard any work with patients that aren't yours you could go throw an entire inpatient rotation without learning how to do a discharge summary. That's not productive

 

[officedepot]

.

 

[Beta Cell]

This what we just instituted here at the University of Michigan:

http://www.med.umich.edu/medstudents/policies/Mistreatment_Policy_Nov_2011.pdf

I love it here, but administrations generally tend to get nothing done. Everyone seems to protect everyone else when it comes to things like this. If any medical student does decide to report someone for mistreatment, it will eventually lead to nothing but bad news for the medical student if the attending finds out about the report, unless it's something major and there were witnesses. Again, this is from what I've seen in the past, not from UMMS specifically.

 

[NTF]

I was happy to get out of the hospital for 20 minutes during our 30 hour shift.

I definitely felt this way on call nights for Obgyn.

 

[drturkleton]

To the med students complaining about scut:

You guys would get slaughtered in the real world. Business, law, you name it. You put in your dues. Sure you're paying for your third year, but you also have a guaranteed job after graduation and a guaranteed high-paying job after residency/fellowship.

Just wanted to point out that your attitude would get you fired elsewhere. I've seen it happen.

 

[da8s0859q]

Crap! I can't remember that last time I asked a student to run something to lab for me, but if I ask, I have a reason, one you may not understand, and you better effing do it, or I WILL personally make sure your eval is crap.

I guess I'm the dick.

To the med students complaining about scut:

You guys would get slaughtered in the real world. Business, law, you name it. You put in your dues. Sure you're paying for your third year, but you also have a guaranteed job after graduation and a guaranteed high-paying job after residency/fellowship.

Just wanted to point out that your attitude would get you fired elsewhere. I've seen it happen.

I'm grateful for the job security, but scut is still scut. I have a certain admiration for my few past residents who explicitly said "no, I can do such-and-such, I told myself I wouldn't scut out my med students when I graduated" or otherwise clearly protected us from little tasks from which we wouldn't learn anything. Gotta love the ones who don't perpetuate the crappier parts of medical education.

 

[jdh71]

I'd check your sarcasm meter, because yours is clearly broken or in need of serious re-calibration.

Just a little extra help from your uncle jdh 😉

 

[da8s0859q]

I'd check your sarcasm meter, because yours is clearly broken or in need of serious re-calibration.

Just a little extra help from your uncle jdh 😉

No no, uncle, I'm laughing because I got it. And for the "I'm gonna torch your eval" comment. 🙂

 

[jdh71]

No no, uncle, I'm laughing because I got it. And for the "I'm gonna torch your eval" comment. 🙂

If you're being a douche, I will torch your eval. I don't know what the experience of some has been - it sounds like some of you think the surgery service overuses your ability to write vitals on a chart. Medicine is a team sport and if you can't be a member of the team, then you don't deserve good or nice things. Like I said I don't remember the last time I had to have a student run any blood anywhere - most hospitals have the ancillary staff to do that, but if I thought it was necessary and some student got all self-righteous about it, then there would be problems.

You see it's your kind of attitude that is the cancer that is killing training these days. You're also the kind of douches who bail out as early as possible and check out as much work as possible to someone else, while carrying on about how indignant you are about all the hard work someone made you do.

Grow up and learn that it's not all about you.

 

[da8s0859q]

You see it's your kind of attitude that is the cancer that is killing training these days. You're also the kind of douches who bail out as early as possible and check out as much work as possible to someone else, while carrying on about how indignant you are about all the hard work someone made you do.

Grow up and learn that it's not all about you.

You're a medicine guy, aren't you? I ended up with pretty flattering comments from my IM residents when it came time for evaluations. I say this only because they've also actually had me rotating under them, and so would know if I was a "douche" with a "cancerous attitude."

I'd have had no problem running that blood for you in the first place. Good Lord, talk about misdirected viciousness.

 

[MilkmanAl]

I don't think I've ever seen someone so angry about being agreed with before. 😕

 

[adaptation1]

for real...😱

I don't think I've ever seen someone so angry about being agreed with before. 😕

 

[lildave2586]

Why aren't you going to the bedside to see the patient? Why aren't you looking at their EKG? Why aren't you offering your interpretation of the data? You're basically admitting that you're not very proactive here.

Again, the job of the students in the morning is to fill in the skeletons on about 40+ patients. This takes at least a few hours, there's not any time to see any patients. I suppose you could argue that the students could arrive at 300 and see the patients then, but is that really what should be done?

 

[cpants]

Again, the job of the students in the morning is to fill in the skeletons on about 40+ patients. This takes at least a few hours, there's not any time to see any patients. I suppose you could argue that the students could arrive at 300 and see the patients then, but is that really what should be done?

Labs and vitals on 40 patients should take ONE student 2 hours max. Presumably you have a few students and it should take you a half an hour or so, leaving time to see 2 patients on your own (which should take 20-30 minutes max) if you get there early enough. Honestly, you aren't going to get too many people on here shedding tears about your early arrival. I got to the hospital at 0330 on the reg during my surgery rotation, and it was expected. The intern would roll in an hour or so later. Why? Because he was lazy? No. Because I was expected to see my 4-5 patients and have notes in the chart before he did. I didn't resent it because seeing those patients and coming up with a plan was my opportunity to learn something and get feedback.

Get efficient and get your work done. There's no whining in surgery.

 

[KnuxNole]

We dont even see patients in our surgery rotation on our own, at least all we do is the vitals and pre-round prep, then round with the team seeing the patients and the chief teaching at times, and then either clinic time or OR time for the day...or study/floors if there are no cases or cases get filled with students.

The good thing about surgery is you can't control the clock. So yea, whining won't do us good, a good therapy is to laugh about it with other students and say "Well, at least we are getting laid this weekend!"

And damn! 3:30? That's brutal! And I thought I arrived super two early over 2 hours later...

 

[cpants]

We dont even see patients in our surgery rotation on our own, at least all we do is the vitals and pre-round prep, then round with the team seeing the patients and the chief teaching at times, and then either clinic time or OR time for the day...or study/floors if there are no cases or cases get filled with students.

The good thing about surgery is you can't control the clock. So yea, whining won't do us good, a good therapy is to laugh about it with other students and say "Well, at least we are getting laid this weekend!"

And damn! 3:30? That's brutal! And I thought I arrived super two early over 2 hours later...

Yeah. And we used to have to walk to the hospital in the snow without boots, uphill both ways. Seriously though, you are getting in at 5:45 and you are complaining? Just stop. Sounds like you are getting some decent teaching and operative time. Be thankful.

 

[KnuxNole]

Yeah. And we used to have to walk to the hospital in the snow without boots, uphill both ways. Seriously though, you are getting in at 5:45 and you are complaining? Just stop. Sounds like you are getting some decent teaching and operative time. Be thankful.

I should be, I know 😳

Guess that's what happens after being on surgery for so long, compared to other rotations you feel slightly jaded for a bit, hence replying to this topic and going through certain "scut" and relating in a way I guess

 

[Chakrabs]

I never really minded doing "scutwork." I liked to be kept busy, and by and large my residents were good enough to not really require me to do anything useless or someone else's job unless I volunteered. As far as running blood/labs would go, I pretty much just did it out of principle. I've had labs get lost in the chute system or never sent at all unless I drew them and walked them over myself. I figured it was just better for the team/patient to get the results in the timely fashion and since I usually walked quickly and took the stairs, it was a bit of exercise for me!

 

[2012mdc]

Yeah. And we used to have to walk to the hospital in the snow without boots, uphill both ways. Seriously though, you are getting in at 5:45 and you are complaining? Just stop. Sounds like you are getting some decent teaching and operative time. Be thankful.

545 on a Surgery rotation as a student is amazing. We rounded at 6 and I just assumed this was the norm.

 

[45408]

Labs and vitals on 40 patients should take ONE student 2 hours max. Presumably you have a few students and it should take you a half an hour or so, leaving time to see 2 patients on your own (which should take 20-30 minutes max) if you get there early enough. Honestly, you aren't going to get too many people on here shedding tears about your early arrival. I got to the hospital at 0330 on the reg during my surgery rotation, and it was expected. The intern would roll in an hour or so later. Why? Because he was lazy? No. Because I was expected to see my 4-5 patients and have notes in the chart before he did. I didn't resent it because seeing those patients and coming up with a plan was my opportunity to learn something and get feedback.

Get efficient and get your work done. There's no whining in surgery.

I'm a PGY-2 in surgery, and I think that 3am pre-rounding is just ridiculous. The earliest I've ever come in is 5am for 6am rounds.

 

[cpants]

I'm a PGY-2 in surgery, and I think that 3am pre-rounding is just ridiculous. The earliest I've ever come in is 5am for 6am rounds.

It was ridiculous. I'm not saying that should be the model. We were understaffed, and rounds needed to get done before OR. Regardless, no one should be complaining about a 545 arrival to get vitals for the team. Get there at 515 and see 3 patients before you get vitals.

 

[MagicalHobo]

I have been arriving at 5 AM every day for almost two months now writing down vitals and labs for every pt on our surgery service. It is very mundane, boring, and DEFINITELY not educational. It is scut work that NO ONE should have to do, but it needs to be done and as a student I would be more than honored to have it done for my residents for some appreciation ( which in my opinion goes a long way) . I know that sounds all touchy feely but it seriously makes a huge difference in my day if the resident takes 10 seconds to say thank you.
And that is what needs to change in my opinion, appreciate your medical students and they will go above and beyond your expectations.
I will do scut work all morning for any resident who truly appreciates my hard work.

Essentially, I am complaining about doing scut work for ***hole residents who treat me like I am some personal assistant.

 

[2012mdc]

I have been arriving at 5 AM every day for almost two months now writing down vitals and labs for every pt on our surgery service. It is very mundane, boring, and DEFINITELY not educational. It is scut work that NO ONE should have to do, but it needs to be done and as a student I would be more than honored to have it done for my residents for some appreciation ( which in my opinion goes a long way) . I know that sounds all touchy feely but it seriously makes a huge difference in my day if the resident takes 10 seconds to say thank you.
And that is what needs to change in my opinion, appreciate your medical students and they will go above and beyond your expectations.
I will do scut work all morning for any resident who truly appreciates my hard work.

Essentially, I am complaining about doing scut work for ***hole residents who treat me like I am some personal assistant.

Scut work to help out an overworked intern is still scut work but at least you're contributing to the team. As long as the scut work isn't getting in the way of your learning it's not the end of the world.

 

[ucsfstudents]

The residents were advised not to give the medical students scut work. Everyone's interpretation of scut work is different however.

 

[440117]

I think we've become a little hypersensitive about the concept of scutwork to the extent that it actually reinforces any hubris med students might have.

Things just sometimes have to get done. And sometimes it's the person who is contributing least to active patient care; i.e. the medical student. If there's a culture of using medical students in attempt to degrade them or constantly pass off menial, noneducational work, that's one thing. But some of the things we complain about are a joke. I'd gladly get coffee for the crew sometimes. Or run a vial to the lab, or make a call to a non-health care professional about a patient.

Why?

Because, for one, I'm a person. Why not help out in little ways to make things run smoother. As a medical student, your intellectual and technical contributions to patient care are the most expendable, so you rightly should be the one to duck out and make yourself useful however you can. Just as long as never gets to a point that such things are taking significant time away from your learning.

Furthermore though, I see staff do it all the time. Humble attendings and fellows are always doing little things that, if asked of a medical student, would be considered scut. Most often they just do it, and aren't being asked to. If they are asked and they refuse to, citing that 'it's a porter's job' or something similar, they look like a huge dong to everyone else in the health care team. IMO, training medical students to have this attitude doesn't make for better doctors.

 

[jdh71]

I think we've become a little hypersensitive about the concept of scutwork to the extent that it actually reinforces any hubris med students might have.

Things just sometimes have to get done. And sometimes it's the person who is contributing least to active patient care; i.e. the medical student. If there's a culture of using medical students in attempt to degrade them or constantly pass off menial, noneducational work, that's one thing. But some of the things we complain about are a joke. I'd gladly get coffee for the crew sometimes. Or run a vial to the lab, or make a call to a non-health care professional about a patient.

Why?

Because, for one, I'm a person. Why not help out in little ways to make things run smoother. As a medical student, your intellectual and technical contributions to patient care are the most expendable, so you rightly should be the one to duck out and make yourself useful however you can. Just as long as never gets to a point that such things are taking significant time away from your learning.

Furthermore though, I see staff do it all the time. Humble attendings and fellows are always doing little things that, if asked of a medical student, would be considered scut. Most often they just do it, and aren't being asked to. If they are asked and they refuse to, citing that 'it's a porter's job' or something similar, they look like a huge dong to everyone else in the health care team. IMO, training medical students to have this attitude doesn't make for better doctors.

well said

 

[Skinceutical]

I have been arriving at 5 AM every day for almost two months now writing down vitals and labs for every pt on our surgery service. It is very mundane, boring, and DEFINITELY not educational. It is scut work that NO ONE should have to do, but it needs to be done and as a student I would be more than honored to have it done for my residents for some appreciation ( which in my opinion goes a long way) . I know that sounds all touchy feely but it seriously makes a huge difference in my day if the resident takes 10 seconds to say thank you.
And that is what needs to change in my opinion, appreciate your medical students and they will go above and beyond your expectations.
I will do scut work all morning for any resident who truly appreciates my hard work.

Essentially, I am complaining about doing scut work for ***hole residents who treat me like I am some personal assistant.

Guess what...residents "are there to learn" too. Unfortunately, sometimes taking care of those pesky patients gets in the way of that.

Not every task associated with patient care is going to be strictly educational, but at the end of the day it still is your responsibility (or at least it will be when you're a resident). When you're a resident, your attending isn't going to hold your hand and express his/her appreciation for requesting those OSH records, or calling for those f/u appointments, or running those stat specimens down to the lab yourself. It's just going to be your job...you might as well get used to it.

 

[Beta Cell]

Guess what...residents "are there to learn" too. Unfortunately, sometimes taking care of those pesky patients gets in the way of that.

Not every task associated with patient care is going to be strictly educational, but at the end of the day it still is your responsibility (or at least it will be when you're a resident). When you're a resident, your attending isn't going to hold your hand and express his/her appreciation for requesting those OSH records, or calling for those f/u appointments, or running those stat specimens down to the lab yourself. It's just going to be your job...you might as well get used to it.

So what you're describing here is a job. Got it.

 

[KnuxNole]

True, the big difference is that for a lot of med students, it's still looked at as school(which it should) instead of a job. Compared to a resident, who has responsibility for patients AND to learn, med students are mainly helping a tiny bit with no responsibility AND to learn. So in hindsight, we have it really easy since we can go home and not worry if our patient is in trouble, or get sued for anything we did...

 

[Skinceutical]

]med students are mainly helping a tiny bit with no responsibility...we can go home and not worry if our patient is in trouble...

That's called not taking ownership of your patients (and not even believing that you need to). I hope that's adequately reflected in your evaluations.

 

[FIREitUP]

To the med students complaining about scut:

You guys would get slaughtered in the real world. Business, law, you name it. You put in your dues. Sure you're paying for your third year, but you also have a guaranteed job after graduation and a guaranteed high-paying job after residency/fellowship.

Just wanted to point out that your attitude would get you fired elsewhere. I've seen it happen.

This needed to be said.

 

[Orbo]

One thing that I have found ostensibly and interestingly missing in this entire thread by students, residents, and attendings alike is that there is absolutely ZERO discussion on how some aspects of scut and other non-educational duties could be improved or eliminated.

In my experience this finding is representative of medical education as a whole.

 

[startoverat40]

when i was a grad student my pi would ask me to go photocopy journal articles for him, which was "scut" work, but it also made me look at what kinds of articles he was paying attention to, which helped me learn about the hot topics in the field.

at work my boss asks me to make powerpoint slides all the time, which is scut work, but it has helped me learn how to present info to senior management and customers.

there is always learning opportunities in scut work.

 

[da8s0859q]

That's called not taking ownership of your patients (and not even believing that you need to). I hope that's adequately reflected in your evaluations.

Two different things, no?

 

[MossPoh]

That's called not taking ownership of your patients (and not even believing that you need to). I hope that's adequately reflected in your evaluations.

One could also argue that taking ownership of your patients involves reading about them and understanding first. Learning is always the most important part of medical SCHOOL.

I'm not devaluing scut. I think it has it's place, but it is also something better done once you know the basics and has pretty big diminishing returns. As a student, it isn't your job to take true ownership of your patient. I would never want my family member's care manager by a medical student.

Scut is a pretty vague word. Some things are useful and some aren't. Starting IVs, navigating red tape has some benefit, while playing orderly would not help the majority of the time.

 

[Skinceutical]

One could also argue that taking ownership of your patients involves reading about them and understanding first. Learning is always the most important part of medical SCHOOL.

No, that's called doing the absolute minimum amount of work required to avoid embarrassing yourself in front of the attending on rounds. Taking ownership entails being proactive and involving yourself in your patient's care as much as you can, given your level of experience.

I would never want my family member's care manager by a medical student.

Considering the fact that med students can't even order Tylenol, that will never happen. Obviously there's always going to be a resident and attending managing every patient's care.

There's a difference between asking you to be proactive and involve yourself in patient care, and asking you to take over entirely. If you basically don't see patient care as your responsibility (and I'm seeing a lot of that in this thread), then you're not taking ownership. Don't worry...the team will still manage and the patients will still receive the same care they would have otherwise because the residents will pick up the slack. But it will be reflected in your evals.

 

[startoverat40]

while you're pushing the patient's bed to radiology, or their wheelchair to the taxi, you can strike up a conversation, and practice your bedside manners. there's your learning opportunity.

 

[2012mdc]

No, that's called doing the absolute minimum amount of work required to avoid embarrassing yourself in front of the attending on rounds. Taking ownership entails being proactive and involving yourself in your patient's care as much as you can, given your level of experience.


Considering the fact that med students can't even order Tylenol, that will never happen. Obviously there's always going to be a resident and attending managing every patient's care.

There's a difference between asking you to be proactive and involve yourself in patient care, and asking you to take over entirely. If you basically don't see patient care as your responsibility (and I'm seeing a lot of that in this thread), then you're not taking ownership. Don't worry...the team will still manage and the patients will still receive the same care they would have otherwise because the residents will pick up the slack. But it will be reflected in your evals.

Taking ownership doesn't mean doing scut all the time. I was a team player and did scut when necessary but not often and my evals were great (many mentioned knowledge base). I'm glad I go to a school that emphasizes learning.

 

[KnuxNole]

That's called not taking ownership of your patients (and not even believing that you need to). I hope that's adequately reflected in your evaluations.

But nobody as a med student "really" takes ownership. Not one med student is gonna get called if something south happens, or goes home and has to worry if the patient codes or not, since they aren't held responsible. We just play the part as a learning tool and such. We have patients to "follow" but we are still learners. I mean, noone is gonna panic if the 3rd year is on their Thanksgiving break or if they have their lectures/lunch break...at least from my experience the 3rd years seem to get in the way more than "take ownership" lol. But, as long as we learn things like how to take an interview, do a good exam, think about what the assessment and plan is and what the real doctors do and present in rounds and see feedback, that's good for our level.

And I agree...you cant expect a lolmedstudent to take care of you, especially since we aren't real doctors. We can HELP/ASSIST but that's it for our level, which is fine since we're still students, we don't have a job. We leave earlier than the residents, take longer lunch breaks, have lots more time to read, etc. I see the residents who have 10-15 minutes to eat and have to work while us students sit around for a few hours shooting the breeze or going to find somewhere to read if all the floorwork is good. But it makes sense, cause they are the real doctors who get paid, while we are students who are paying the school. At least, thankfully, that's what attendings know who said that too. And residents too for the most part.

I dunno, maybe the place you work at kills their students or something, cause it seems they dont expect much more of students other than reading up on patients, learning(cause we DONT have the ability to take care of patients yet, we still have to read/study), taking H+P and presenting. That's the bread and butter, the meat of rotations to say. OB/Surg has the added factor of scrubbing in to assist/learn about procedures.

 

[45408]

One thing that I have found ostensibly and interestingly missing in this entire thread by students, residents, and attendings alike is that there is absolutely ZERO discussion on how some aspects of scut and other non-educational duties could be improved or eliminated.

In my experience this finding is representative of medical education as a whole.

True. All the "writing down labs and vitals" could be eliminated with a good EMR that provided useful printouts. God forbid.

 

[Orbo]

True. All the "writing down labs and vitals" could be eliminated with a good EMR that provided useful printouts. God forbid.

The funny thing is that it wouldn't be difficult at all to produce such a thing. I have been at awe throughout my clinical rotations at just how much monkey work (lets face it, a monkey can scribe down those vitals and labs) students and residents were able to tolerate.

It personally drove me insane.

EMR has improved it to some degree, but there is so much that could be improved it's just mind-boggling.

 

[MrTambourineMan]

.

 

[Skinceutical]

We can HELP/ASSIST but that's it for our level, which is fine since we're still students, we don't have a job.

HELPING and ASSISTING at your level of knowledge and experience will often involve less than glamorous tasks. No one needs your help titrating the Flolan drip for that patient with advanced pulmonary HTN. They could use your assistance with obtaining her OSH records though.

We're usually happy to teach you more about PAH and Flolan, but probably not if you're one of those med students who disappears for hours during lunch time and doesn't feel any particular responsibility to help out with the work on the floor.

 

[45408]

The funny thing is that it wouldn't be difficult at all to produce such a thing. I have been at awe throughout my clinical rotations at just how much monkey work (lets face it, a monkey can scribe down those vitals and labs) students and residents were able to tolerate.

It personally drove me insane.

EMR has improved it to some degree, but there is so much that could be improved it's just mind-boggling.

Oh, trust me, I know. We do get some pretty useful flowsheets for our patients' vitals, but I asked if we could just get their blood sugars on their too. Hmmmm, nope, not possible, even though it's in the same program as all the rest of their vitals.