How does your school recognize top students?

[Tozanzibarbymotorcar]

We have an awards ceremony at the end of each school year where the top students for each class (I.e. biochemistry) get an award. Is this something your school does? What are your thoughts on this?

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[Chibucks15]

We have an awards ceremony at the end of each school year where the top students for each class (I.e. biochemistry) get an award. Is this something your school does? What are your thoughts on this?

We don't have that kinda stuff. I mean its a positive award so thats nice for the top people to put on CVs but I feel like in the grand scheme of things noone is going to be super impressed by a top score in a pre-clinical class. In my opinion, there are people who come in with Ph. D's in biochemistry so they should be expected to be at the top of those classes by a mile. Now the people who are top of the class the whole way through is a different story they deserve to be recognized. Just not for each specific class I think that's a bit much

 

[Tozanzibarbymotorcar]

I agree. I am not sure if any other school does this. To some extent I think it breeds resentment.

 

[Chibucks15]

I agree. I am not sure if any other school does this. To some extent I think it breeds resentment.

I can see that...especially in the hyper-competitive nature of medical school. There's so much of an emphasis on scores it breeds unhealthy lifestyles and resentment. That's why taking the "I'll be average and live life *kinda* normal" route is what I find to be best haha to each their own

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Mine gives SSP to the top 20% at the end of the first semester. Kind of dumb honestly because it basically becomes a “who got the best scores in anatomy” thing.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Mine gives SSP to the top 20% at the end of the first semester. Kind of dumb honestly because it basically becomes a “who got the best scores in anatomy” thing.

Mine “nominates” like the top 1/2 of the class for SSP and then interviews you for it. If you win you get to pay a fee and do extra-curricular stuff for the school for free. I’ll pass on that nonsense.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Mine “nominates” like the top 1/2 of the class for SSP and then interviews you for it. If you win you get to pay a fee and do extra-curricular stuff for the school for free. I’ll pass on that nonsense.

Yeah it’s a little ridiculous how schools give out SSP. It’s supposed to be an honor society similar to the MD AOA but it isn’t even close. Hence why no PD cares about it

 

[Tozanzibarbymotorcar]

I don't know much about AOA. Are DO schools banned from starting chapters? With all the merging going on, maybe we should look into incorporating AOA? I don't have time to look at the constitution..
Alpha Omega Alpha - Constitution

 

[MrTaco92]

Doesn't this just perpetuate the "trophies" argument that gets brought up so often when people hate on millennials? It's just ironic that the administration at your school (probably not composed of millenials) would support such a thing.

 

[NecrotizingFasciitis]

My school allows you to apply for SSP if you're in the top quarter. You have to formally apply. You get put on the dean's list if you're top 10%. We definitely don't do awards per class, but you can watch your class rank fluctuate after every block.

Like a cold damp environment to a bacteria, it is the perfect breeding ground for neuroticism & type-A personalities.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Doesn't this just perpetuate the "trophies" argument that gets brought up so often when people hate on millennials? It's just ironic that the administration at your school (probably not composed of millenials) would support such a thing.

The point that gets brought up a lot is “who gave the millenials trophies”

My school allows you to apply for SSP if you're in the top quarter. You have to formally apply. You get put on the dean's list if you're top 10%. We definitely don't do awards per class, but you can watch your class rank fluctuate after every block.

Like a cold damp environment to a bacteria, it is the perfect breeding ground for neuroticism & type-A personalities.

Honestly, I’m glad that my school doesn’t tell us our numerical rank. We just know our quartile. You only get updated on it after the semester ends so you can’t just obsess over it too.

I really wish it was just pass/fail. We have people actually complaining to admin if a test is “too easy” bc they want to screw with the class ranks. Not only does this tactic make zero sense, no one important cares about class rank anyway.

Edited: random incomplete sentence was at the beginning

 

[FourniersGreenGang]

My school treats those of us at the top with disdain. Idk why

 

[BorntobeDO?]

I have a theory that they recognize them by dropping questions more often that the top students miss. Unfortunately for me I wasn't top in enough classes, but during my 4th semester I noticed how one particular class that I had always stomped on, that if I missed questions, they tended to get dropped (one test they literally dropped all 4 questions that I missed). And that wasn't the only test that kind of thing happened, it was just the most obvious.

Then I realized why I wasn't getting helped that much by the drops in other classes even if I did good on a test. The school was looking out for the historic good performers. So my thought is perform well early, so the bias may ever be in your favor.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

My school treats those of us at the top with disdain. Idk why

Because they know you are less likely to do PC.

I have a theory that they recognize them by dropping questions more often that the top students miss. Unfortunately for me I wasn't top in enough classes, but during my 4th semester I noticed how one particular class that I had always stomped on, that if I missed questions, they tended to get dropped (one test they literally dropped all 4 questions that I missed). And that wasn't the only test that kind of thing happened, it was just the most obvious.

Then I realized why the I wasn't getting helped that much by the drops in other classes even if I did good on a test. The school was looking out for the historic good performers. So my thought is perform well early, so the bias may ever be in your favor.

Our school does this too but it’s actually an algorithm and the point isn’t to actually help the top students, it just turns out that way because the questions the top performers miss are usually questions that most of the class misses. Our school looks at those as bad questions if even the top performers missed them en masse. Hence, they get thrown out.

 

[ortnakas]

Because they know you are less likely to do PC.

Our school does this too but it’s actually an algorithm and the point isn’t to actually help the top students, it just turns out that way because the questions the top performers miss are usually questions that most of the class misses. Our school looks at those as bad questions if even the top performers missed them en masse. Hence, they get thrown out.

My school’s policy isn’t transparent but seemed to be similar. I know if “X” percentage missed any given question, it was investigated and possibly thrown out. Stands to reason that some at the top of the class had to miss those questions to trigger it being looked into, and that those students weren’t missing the questions that didn’t hit the cut-off.

 

[Roxas]

My school treats those of us at the top with disdain. Idk why

I've always had the impression that those at the top of the class get hassled by the school a little less, as they are the wonder children that make the school look good. But definitely still threatens them enough that they still know who's boss until they have their piece of paper.

 

[CajunMedic]

We had a unofficial ceremony at the end of second year, some of the awards were serious, some were goofy. The school gives out one at white coat ceremony to a top student from the second year class. SSP is available, but there is an official process for it. No Dean's list. We started a GHHS chapter, but that turned in to a popularity contest.

 

[Neopolymath]

Mine gives SSP to the top 20% at the end of the first semester. Kind of dumb honestly because it basically becomes a “who got the best scores in anatomy” thing.

That's so stupid. It just makes SSP even more of a joke. It's actually funny that a lot of the top students at my school are not in SSP for '20 or 21' here. At my school, rank is done via raw gpa so someone who gets a 100 in anatomy and an 80 in genetics (or whatever equal hour course...) has a 90 average, but someone who got a 90 and an 88 has an 89. This is further compounded by the fact that our anatomy course just isn't that hard but gets a large curve anyways because the bottom half of the class is usually still adjusting to school as it is the first block. All of the following courses/terms do not get any real curve for the rest of preclinicals. Which student is obviously a better student? Which student has a huge cushion for class rank because of one class that doesn't even really matter?

We all know rank doesn't matter much, but it is frustrating to know that a chunk of people above me have done noticeably worse than me the rest of school but think they are hot **** lol. It really sets the tone in a bad way in my opinion.

Mine “nominates” like the top 1/2 of the class for SSP and then interviews you for it. If you win you get to pay a fee and do extra-curricular stuff for the school for free. I’ll pass on that nonsense.

Yeah, when someone told me that there was mandatory service hours that have to be "eligible" it was the nail in the coffin. I spend plenty of my time outside of school in a productive manner. I don't need approved activities for a made up club.

 

[ProfAnon]

My school’s policy isn’t transparent but seemed to be similar. I know if “X” percentage missed any given question, it was investigated and possibly thrown out. Stands to reason that some at the top of the class had to miss those questions to trigger it being looked into, and that those students weren’t missing the questions that didn’t hit the cut-off.

What people are alluding to in this thread is the statistical analysis that is performed on the questions that tells us (faculty) whether the question is "good" or not. I am not sure why it is not simply explained to the students how it works (I explain it to individuals when they ask). A value called the "biserial" is calculated and it is based on the performance of the top 27% and bottom 27% of the class. It is very useful to determine if a hard question was fair or not, or in other words, did it discriminate well. However, who is in the top and bottom 27% is recalculated on every single exam and is not individually identified before. So if you were in the top 27% in the past, you are not automatically included in that group on the next exam -- a new group is identified on each exam. Also a single student in the top 27% getting a question wrong is not going to trigger a bad biserial, and when you have large class sizes these numbers become very robust (if the class size is small, say less than 50 the numbers don't mean as much). Its an invaluable tool for question analysis -- it's not perfect but it's definitely better than just using the item writer's opinion!

 

[QueenJames]

They get a cookie.

 

[ortnakas]

The "top" (above a certain GPA) students in my school don't have to go to some mandatory board review days before Step 1 and they're eligible to be club officers. Other than that, I'm not aware they got any/many perks.

What people are alluding to in this thread is the statistical analysis that is performed on the questions that tells us (faculty) whether the question is "good" or not. I am not sure why it is not simply explained to the students how it works (I explain it to individuals when they ask). A value called the "biserial" is calculated and it is based on the performance of the top 27% and bottom 27% of the class. It is very useful to determine if a hard question was fair or not, or in other words, did it discriminate well. However, who is in the top and bottom 27% is recalculated on every single exam and is not individually identified before. So if you were in the top 27% in the past, you are not automatically included in that group on the next exam -- a new group is identified on each exam. Also a single student in the top 27% getting a question wrong is not going to trigger a bad biserial, and when you have large class sizes these numbers become very robust (if the class size is small, say less than 50 the numbers don't mean as much). Its an invaluable tool for question analysis -- it's not perfect but it's definitely better than just using the item writer's opinion!

This is a way better explanation than I gave. Thank you!

 

[DNC127]

I got the biggest gunner award after first semester. So my award was figuring out my class hated me. whoops.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I got the biggest gunner award after first semester. So my award was figuring out my class hated me. whoops.

GGG

 

[TTPpentad]

We don't have that kinda stuff. I mean its a positive award so thats nice for the top people to put on CVs but I feel like in the grand scheme of things noone is going to be super impressed by a top score in a pre-clinical class. In my opinion, there are people who come in with Ph. D's in biochemistry so they should be expected to be at the top of those classes by a mile. Now the people who are top of the class the whole way through is a different story they deserve to be recognized. Just not for each specific class I think that's a bit much

Lol we do have this “kinda stuff,” you just haven’t experienced it yet. Wait until end of 2nd year. It’s called the Rite of Passage Ceremony. It was a surprise to me too.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

What people are alluding to in this thread is the statistical analysis that is performed on the questions that tells us (faculty) whether the question is "good" or not. I am not sure why it is not simply explained to the students how it works (I explain it to individuals when they ask). A value called the "biserial" is calculated and it is based on the performance of the top 27% and bottom 27% of the class. It is very useful to determine if a hard question was fair or not, or in other words, did it discriminate well. However, who is in the top and bottom 27% is recalculated on every single exam and is not individually identified before. So if you were in the top 27% in the past, you are not automatically included in that group on the next exam -- a new group is identified on each exam. Also a single student in the top 27% getting a question wrong is not going to trigger a bad biserial, and when you have large class sizes these numbers become very robust (if the class size is small, say less than 50 the numbers don't mean as much). Its an invaluable tool for question analysis -- it's not perfect but it's definitely better than just using the item writer's opinion!

This is the part I am not sure that my school does. I think they roll it from test to test. Just a n=1, but I have finished multiple classes with the last test being my best one, and just didn't get drops despite being a letter grade above the median. Could be bad luck, but when it happened 3 or 4 times I get suspicious.

 

[SaltyMeatBalls]

Yeah it’s a little ridiculous how schools give out SSP. It’s supposed to be an honor society similar to the MD AOA but it isn’t even close. Hence why no PD cares about it

This isn't completely true. I received positive feedback from multiple ACGME PDs during interviews. It's true that it isn't equivalent to AOA but being in the top 20% of a classroom full of very intelligent and motivated students is something to be proud of.

 

[DNC127]

This isn't completely true. I received positive feedback from multiple ACGME PDs during interviews. It's true that it isn't equivalent to AOA but being in the top 20% of a classroom full of very intelligent and motivated students is something to be proud of.

So the ACGME PDs moderately cared/liked that you had SSP?

 

[Mad Jack]

We have an awards ceremony at the end of each school year where the top students for each class (I.e. biochemistry) get an award. Is this something your school does? What are your thoughts on this?

We don't need snowflake trophies at my school

 

[Chibucks15]

Lol we do have this “kinda stuff,” you just haven’t experienced it yet. Wait until end of 2nd year. It’s called the Rite of Passage Ceremony. It was a surprise to me too.

I saw those awards but I wasn't sure what it was haha dang well hey I know I'm out of the running. It did seem like the people who won them were some of the more 'involved' people that's for sure

 

[TTPpentad]

I saw those awards but I wasn't sure what it was haha dang well hey I know I'm out of the running. It did seem like the people who won them were some of the more 'involved' people that's for sure

Yeah, the people who were named for the class awards were not surprises. Most are in SSP.

 

[Chibucks15]

Yeah, the people who were named for the class awards were not surprises. Most are in SSP.

Given that the entire top 25% of my class have 4.0s us mere mortals in the middle have no shot haha

 

[TTPpentad]

Given that the entire top 25% of my class have 4.0s us mere mortals in the middle have no shot haha

Haha the cutoff definitely lowers throughout 2nd year. SSP wouldn't touch me with a 10ft pole during 1st year, and now I'm creeping towards their quartile by pure consistency. In the end, it doesn't matter though so whatever!

 

[SaltyMeatBalls]

So the ACGME PDs moderately cared/liked that you had SSP?

I’m not sure what their level of satisfaction was. But they definitely praised it. There is an option in the ACGME application to select SSP. Therefore, it’s a filterable metric for applications/interviews.

I get that it’s not an equivalent. But I’m sure glad I had it in my corner when interviews came.

 

[austintr]

Given that the entire top 25% of my class have 4.0s us mere mortals in the middle have no shot haha

I say we just go for "best hair" or "most likely to be named in a malpractice suit".

 

[DNC127]

I’m not sure what their level of satisfaction was. But they definitely praised it. There is an option in the ACGME application to select SSP. Therefore, it’s a filterable metric for applications/interviews.

I get that it’s not an equivalent. But I’m sure glad I had it in my corner when interviews came.

Thats awesome. I guess I am more glad that I got it now lol

 

[Chibucks15]

I say we just go for "best hair" or "most likely to be named in a malpractice suit".

I have people in mind for both of those right off the bat haha our class is nuts. There's no way to make up any ground when everybodys got an A

 

[Tozanzibarbymotorcar]

I’m not sure what their level of satisfaction was. But they definitely praised it. There is an option in the ACGME application to select SSP. Therefore, it’s a filterable metric for applications/interviews.

I get that it’s not an equivalent. But I’m sure glad I had it in my corner when interviews came.

There is so much variation in how students gain acceptance to SSP. For some schools it is top 20% for some it is top 50% or a minimum GPA. It is nothing like AOA which has standardized rules with regards to grades (only top quartile). I'm curious as to which specialty and how many PDs mentioned SSP to you since it doesn't seem that SSP has anywhere near the recognition or respect that the AOA does.

 

[Neopolymath]

There is so much variation in how students gain acceptance to SSP. For some schools it is top 20% for some it is top 50% or a minimum GPA. It is nothing like AOA which has standardized rules with regards to grades (only top quartile). I'm curious as to which specialty and how many PDs mentioned SSP to you since it doesn't seem that SSP has anywhere near the recognition or respect that the AOA does.

Touch points (lol)/volunteer hours were a requirement at my school.

 

[t5Nitro]

SSP is ridiculous at my school. I think the top 50% get offered to pay the application fee at some point in the didactic years. I think the best way to recognize good students, not necessarily the top students, are the ones the psychiatry department chose to present their recorded psych standardized patient visits with the class. The ones they showed you can tell those people are going to be excellent doctors; I don't know their class rank, but they seem damn good in the clinic setting.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Touch points (lol)/volunteer hours were a requirement at my school.

At least I avoided this, any volunteering I have done has been because I wanted to. It was funny when they announced the gold pins or whatever for 100 hours of volunteering were going away. So many 'charitable' classmates of mine so angry that they weren't going to have an external honor badge to prove their beneficence to the world!

But they weren't volunteering for the badges of course... Gold Humanism is another one I am a huge fan of (not). In my future I will screen these people out, way too much fakery.