How essential is a surgery internship for ESIR residents?

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NotAnotherPreMed

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I'm an M4 applying into DR and IR with interviews in both. I was planning to rank some T10 DR programs (with strong ESIR) higher than some IR programs. I have IR research and mentors in the field already. For the purpose of intern year, I want to match at this IM prelim which is close to friends/family. Is this going to be an issue for ESIR/applying for independent IR later in case I match DR now? I was hoping am ideal strong performance in residency coupled by prior IR pubs etc. would alleviate this issue?

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I'm an M4 applying into DR and IR with interviews in both. I was planning to rank some T10 DR programs (with strong ESIR) higher than some IR programs. I have IR research and mentors in the field already. For the purpose of intern year, I want to match at this IM prelim which is close to friends/family. Is this going to be an issue for ESIR/applying for independent IR later in case I match DR now? I was hoping am ideal strong performance in residency coupled by prior IR pubs etc. would alleviate this issue?
Surgery is what you want to do. In the perfect world I think 6 month surgery (3 months vascular) 6 months (neurology, neurosurgery, hepatobiliary). But you will never get that so do a surgery internship.
 
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Surgery is what you want to do. In the perfect world I think 6 month surgery (3 months vascular) 6 months (neurology, neurosurgery, hepatobiliary). But you will never get that so do a surgery internship.
I understand that might be great prep for an IR residency I was asking more about the relevance for ESIR position applications. Also lol you could literally get like 4 months surgery and 4-6 months medicine/ICU and 1 month IR at some TY programs (ofc by not choosing chill but choosing meaningful electives) if that's what one would want.
 
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Surgery is what you want to do. In the perfect world I think 6 month surgery (3 months vascular) 6 months (neurology, neurosurgery, hepatobiliary). But you will never get that so do a surgery internship.

this poster is wrong. It doesn’t really matter which internship you go to for fellowship. Better spend time with friend and family.

I am an academic IR faculty now at a decent place and I did medicine internship. Literally what type of internship I did was brought up zero times during fellowship interviews.
 
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I asked the IR attendings on my rotation about this and they said it doesn't matter. Multiple of the attendings + current fellows had done medicine prelims instead of surg
 
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And lets be honest.. How much intern year surgery are you going to remember during R3/4 year? Not much lol
 
this poster is wrong. It doesn’t really matter which internship you go to for fellowship. Better spend time with friend and family.

I am an academic IR faculty now at a decent place and I did medicine internship. Literally what type of internship I did was brought up zero times during fellowship interviews.
So I was speaking more to what the best thing for education would be. You could do medicine and end up doing IR somewhere without a doubt. No problem! “I’m wrong” interesting statement, let’s think it over.... There are 89 integrated IR residences in the country most are advanced meaning do you intern year somewhere then go to the place you will complete your IR/DR residency. some are Categorical meaning intern year and IR/DR happen at the same institution. Now if 2021 is right and it “does does not matter“ then there would be a good mix of the categorical programs medicine and surgery right? Because why does it matter?! Wrong!! All the categorical programs are surgery intern years. Not some. not most. all! At least when I was applying. And the reason it is that way is because SIR has been pushing it because they feel that it’s the best way to go. Facts don’t lie.

Now some discussion on why I feel it’s best.
You will care for patients that you will see in the future more then medicine. surg onc patients examples; post-op hepatic resection patients, trauma patient that gets his spleen embo, vascular patient that you are manging tpa orders, post op surgical abscess that IR puts a drain in.

Procedure skills: I suture a port in better then any medicine intern IR attending I know. And they will admit it to you. I know IR attending’s that still get squirmy about using large sheaths in veins. Residents that do surgery internships but a finger over it for 15 minutes.

Population: I can work up a vascular consult in 2 minutes . Medicine residents dont even get those consults.

Demanding: surgery internship is on average more demanding then medicine intern year and your patient loads are higher and it forces you to get good at working up and managing acute issues.

Anatomy: Medicine residents have a poor understanding of anatomy compared to surgery residents. Some of the anatomy will rub off on you your intern year and you will come in much stronger then medicine interns.

Mentality: Surgeons are often ruthless and competitive in nature. There is a lot of competition out there for wanting to do IR procedures by different specialty’s. Just like in some places neurosurgery and vascular compete for carotid endarterectomys and neurosurgery competes with ortho for spine. You can learn from these competitive arena‘s so you know how to compete in the future.
Its just an opinion that most upper levels at the society of interventional radiology happen to agree with me on.
 
So I was speaking more to what the best thing for education would be. You could do medicine and end up doing IR somewhere without a doubt. No problem! “I’m wrong” interesting statement, let’s think it over.... There are 89 integrated IR residences in the country most are advanced meaning do you intern year somewhere then go to the place you will complete your IR/DR residency. some are Categorical meaning intern year and IR/DR happen at the same institution. Now if 2021 is right and it “does does not matter“ then there would be a good mix of the categorical programs medicine and surgery right? Because why does it matter?! Wrong!! All the categorical programs are surgery intern years. Not some. not most. all! At least when I was applying. And the reason it is that way is because SIR has been pushing it because they feel that it’s the best way to go. Facts don’t lie.

Now some discussion on why I feel it’s best.
You will care for patients that you will see in the future more then medicine. surg onc patients examples; post-op hepatic resection patients, trauma patient that gets his spleen embo, vascular patient that you are manging tpa orders, post op surgical abscess that IR puts a drain in.

Procedure skills: I suture a port in better then any medicine intern IR attending I know. And they will admit it to you. I know IR attending’s that still get squirmy about using large sheaths in veins. Residents that do surgery internships but a finger over it for 15 minutes.

Population: I can work up a vascular consult in 2 minutes . Medicine residents dont even get those consults.

Demanding: surgery internship is on average more demanding then medicine intern year and your patient loads are higher and it forces you to get good at working up and managing acute issues.

Anatomy: Medicine residents have a poor understanding of anatomy compared to surgery residents. Some of the anatomy will rub off on you your intern year and you will come in much stronger then medicine interns.

Mentality: Surgeons are often ruthless and competitive in nature. There is a lot of competition out there for wanting to do IR procedures by different specialty’s. Just like in some places neurosurgery and vascular compete for carotid endarterectomys and neurosurgery competes with ortho for spine. You can learn from these competitive arena‘s so you know how to compete in the future.
Its just an opinion that most upper levels at the society of interventional radiology happen to agree with me on.
I think when he’s saying “the type of prelim year doesn’t matter” he’s referencing what specific programs requirements/preferences are. SIR may push for a surgery prelim but that doesn’t make it a necessity for advanced program applications, and I think he’s saying in particular it makes a negligible difference in terms of the program preferencing applicants.

You can then discuss the benefits of one year out of your career and how you spend it, but if we’re all going to be honest a trainee’s word carries significantly less weight than a graduated attending in IR.
 
So I was speaking more to what the best thing for education would be. You could do medicine and end up doing IR somewhere without a doubt. No problem! “I’m wrong” interesting statement, let’s think it over.... There are 89 integrated IR residences in the country most are advanced meaning do you intern year somewhere then go to the place you will complete your IR/DR residency. some are Categorical meaning intern year and IR/DR happen at the same institution. Now if 2021 is right and it “does does not matter“ then there would be a good mix of the categorical programs medicine and surgery right? Because why does it matter?! Wrong!! All the categorical programs are surgery intern years. Not some. not most. all! At least when I was applying. And the reason it is that way is because SIR has been pushing it because they feel that it’s the best way to go. Facts don’t lie.

counterpoint: surgerical internships are noncompetitive and always looking for bodies. It’s significantly easier politically to add a surgical internship.

In a lot of places, mine included, combo a surgical internship basically allow us to bundle a not so hot item with a hot item.

Now some discussion on why I feel it’s best.
You will care for patients that you will see in the future more then medicine. surg onc patients examples; post-op hepatic resection patients, trauma patient that gets his spleen embo, vascular patient that you are manging tpa orders, post op surgical abscess that IR puts a drain in.
Counterpoint: in actual practice it’s about 50/50 or even less depends on your practice environment. I have a large base of renal patients so there is a lot of diabetes and HTN management. Our surgeons actually don’t suck (haha jkjk) so we don’t end up doing a ton of abscess drain or pseudoan
Procedure skills: I suture a port in better then any medicine intern IR attending I know. And they will admit it to you. I know IR attending’s that still get squirmy about using large sheaths in veins. Residents that do surgery internships but a finger over it for 15 minutes.
Glad to hear that you as an intern sutures a port in better than any medicine intern IR attending you know. How many ports have you done with IR attending already as an intern? I am sure you can suture a port better than ANY medicine internship trained IR attending out there. Congrats.

Oh, by the way, you should go look up CMS data about portion of surgical port vs IR placed port over time.

Population: I can work up a vascular consult in 2 minutes . Medicine residents dont even get those consults.
Demanding: surgery internship is on average more demanding then medicine intern year and your patient loads are higher and it forces you to get good at working up and managing acute issues.


This may come as a diss but most IR attending or trainee will not need to work up an arterial vascular consult either. Either way it’s not difficult to work up and cold leg happen on medicine services too.

Demanding also doesn’t necessarily translate to good education. Unfortunately surgical internship often translate into doing floor work so surgical categoricals can go to the OR. It certainly seem to happen more th


Anatomy: Medicine residents have a poor understanding of anatomy compared to surgery residents. Some of the anatomy will rub off on you your intern year and you will come in much stronger then medicine interns.

I think my understanding of the human anatomy is just fine. You don’t need to worry about that if you do radiology residency.

Mentality: Surgeons are often ruthless and competitive in nature. There is a lot of competition out there for wanting to do IR procedures by different specialty’s. Just like in some places neurosurgery and vascular compete for carotid endarterectomys and neurosurgery competes with ortho for spine. You can learn from these competitive arena‘s so you know how to compete in the future.

I know SIR and some posters out there are always be like “learn to compete”. Doing a surgical internship teach you how to write post op notes and pull drains among other things. It doesn’t teach you how to market your service or do lunch and learns with PCPs.

Its just an opinion that most upper levels at the society of interventional radiology happen to agree with me on.

The upper levels of SIR, vocal members that is, is a very small group of individual. A lot of their opinions and policies changes thing for trainee, but some are not applicable and some are controversial. The push for surgical internship is one of those things that don’t matter.

Thank you for lecturing me before your radiology residency even started. Hell I could be your attending next year, you never know.
 
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ok I'm not sure if this conclusion is correct but the resident made points advocating that "surg internship will give you certain advantages over other interns at the start of r1" whereas the attending is like "well, will it actually make a difference by the time you start an attending job and have a lot of DR and IR training behind you? I don't think so"
 
It's not going to make or break you for applications. On paper maybe a small advantage in a few places to do a surgery prelim.

In preparation for radiology (DR or IR), surgical rotations are more relevant than medicine but if you would be happier living closer to your family/friends, then that's probably the better choice for you in the end.
 
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I've already given my opinion on this in another thread. But to summarize:

From a practical standpoint? Prelim year does not matter at all. Medicine intern year will make you no better or worse an IR attending than surgery intern year. Individual ability and conscientiousness and agreeableness is far more important than what type of intern year you did.

From a political standpoint? SIR promotes doing a surgical intern year. That does not mean that it is more useful or will make you a better IR.
 
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counterpoint: surgerical internships are noncompetitive and always looking for bodies. It’s significantly easier politically to add a surgical internship.

In a lot of places, mine included, combo a surgical internship basically allow us to bundle a not so hot item with a hot item.


Counterpoint: in actual practice it’s about 50/50 or even less depends on your practice environment. I have a large base of renal patients so there is a lot of diabetes and HTN management. Our surgeons actually don’t suck (haha jkjk) so we don’t end up doing a ton of abscess drain or pseudoan

Glad to hear that you as an intern sutures a port in better than any medicine intern IR attending you know. How many ports have you done with IR attending already as an intern? I am sure you can suture a port better than ANY medicine internship trained IR attending out there. Congrats.

Oh, by the way, you should go look up CMS data about portion of surgical port vs IR placed port over time.

Population: I can work up a vascular consult in 2 minutes . Medicine residents dont even get those consults.



This may come as a diss but most IR attending or trainee will not need to work up an arterial vascular consult either. Either way it’s not difficult to work up and cold leg happen on medicine services too.

Demanding also doesn’t necessarily translate to good education. Unfortunately surgical internship often translate into doing floor work so surgical categoricals can go to the OR. It certainly seem to happen more th




I think my understanding of the human anatomy is just fine. You don’t need to worry about that if you do radiology residency.



I know SIR and some posters out there are always be like “learn to compete”. Doing a surgical internship teach you how to write post op notes and pull drains among other things. It doesn’t teach you how to market your service or do lunch and learns with PCPs.



The upper levels of SIR, vocal members that is, is a very small group of individual. A lot of their opinions and policies changes thing for trainee, but some are not applicable and some are controversial. The push for surgical internship is one of those things that don’t matter.

Thank you for lecturing me before your radiology residency even started. Hell I could be your attending next year, you never know.
I am not an Intern. But your welcome, anytime.
 
I am not an Intern. But your welcome, anytime.
So I dug through your post history a little bit, apparently you’ve been quite abrasive to a variety of specialists like in this thread here


Also, congrats on finishing your intern year and becoming an IR1 where you appearently done dozens of Kypho. That’s honestly more than the amount of kypho I do this year given Covid so kudos!

You may want to turn down your arrogance or just plain express your opinion more politely though. IR is a small field. Judging by your post history, you are a DO, doing IR1 right now and is in a community/hybrid program. I think one of my buddy works in such a program. Almost make me want to checkin with him and ask about the next great gift to IR.
 
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Agree that as an ESIR applicant we are looking at the total package 1) letters (most importantly letters from someone we know and trust) 2) IR research 3) procedural and clinical experience (ICU/clinical blocks/procedural experience (diversity and volume and primary operator experience) 4) networking at meetings , virtual lectures etc (arguably most important to showcase your interest and passion for IR ) 5) ACR in service training exam scores 6) Internship (if all of the above are similar may use this as a tiebreaker to see if you were ready to take on the challenge of a busy intern year and thus would be less likely to have problems dealing with a super busy IR fellowship). The internship does not make or break you but a strong surgical internship does give one a lot of confidence, stamina and less fear than the average medicine or TY prelim graduate. I personally feel we need more of the aggressive can do attitude that is more pervasive in surgical disciplines.


Though I have done a reasonable number of ports and feel my suturing is "adequate" and get follow up in clinic to see how the incision has healed and if there are any port issues. I do recognize that my suturing skills are not as refined as I personally would like and I have tried to pick up tips from those who have done surgery so I can improve on that. Ideally I would scrub with a plastic surgeon and really get this aspect down . Most of my sutures are to suture drains in and I feel that I can do that fairly well.

When I was initially working on surgical femoral arterial cutdowns prior to the use of proglide( I struggled with the Castros and the 5-0 polypropylene stitches which even the surgical interns managed much more adeptly). The day to day existence that I personally have reflects a surgical field far more than IM or TY. I round prior to my operating day, I have to do inpatient consults (similar to acute care surgery). We deal with post operative periprocedural complications. (sepsis/bleeding) etc. The surgical residents (on average) develop more stamina and are able to see more patients efficiently.

The surgical rotations are quite helfpful for radiology as well as VIR. It is essentially 12 months of anatomic based training, surgical techniques, improving manual dexterity (simulation lab/ operative time/ minor procedures including I and D at bedside etc). Surgical oncology is comparable to what we need to know (resection and ablation are comparable in goals (curative intent)), staging of cancers (Colorectal cancer, liver cancer (HCC/ cholangiocarcinoma/Neuroendocrine tumor), endocrine (thyroid/parathyroid), thoracic surgery (lung cancer staging, treatment, nodal station anatomy), Acute care surgery (bowel obstruction, cholecystitis, appendicitis, diverticulitis, hernias, pancreatitis), trauma (blunt/ penetrating), transplant (renal, liver, pancreas, small bowel), Breast surgery (mammography, mastectomy, needle localization, axillary node dissection, lumpectomy), cardiac surgery (CABG, Valves (stenosis/regurg/endocarditis), aortic dissections) and the perioperative management including IABP etc, SICU (dealing with postoperative bleeding, infections , anastomotic leaks etc). Not all programs are the same so it is important to identify a surgical internship which will give you adequate time doing floor work (improve efficiency and deal with floor issues), ICU time (deal with ill patients with multi-organ support (dialysis, pressors, ventilators etc), clinic time (seeing new consults and follow up to learn the disease), operative time (to improve your anatomic knowledge and knowledge of surgeries and manual dexterity). The below has some links of some surgical programs.

 
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I'm not very knowledgeable so please correct me if I'm way off here, but at most programs isn't the PGY1 surgical intern year mostly managing the floor with relatively few days scrubbing into cases?

Like, I can see how IM is even less relevant, but wouldn't a TY with lots of procedural/surgical elective rotations where you actually scrub in all day every day be the better option?
 
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6) Internship (if all of the above are similar may use this as a tiebreaker to see if you were ready to take on the challenge of a busy intern year and thus would be less likely to have problems dealing with a super busy IR fellowship).


The internship does not make or break you but a strong surgical internship does give one a lot of confidence, stamina and less fear than the average medicine or TY prelim graduate. I personally feel we need more of the aggressive can do attitude that is more pervasive in surgical disciplines.

The surgical residents (on average) develop more stamina and are able to see more patients efficiently.
The surgical residents (on average) develop more stamina and are able to see more patients efficiently.

One thing IR as a field needs to watch out for is to put surgery onto a pedastal, which surgical services do to themselves. They surround themselves in the mystical aura of being a surgeon and argue that the skill they acquire is mystical and cannot bacquired outside of a surgical residency.

Meanwhile, some surgeons do not display the humility or extend a similar courtsey to other fields. They truly believe that they are radiologist, internist, etc plus more and believe they do other specialist’s job just as well. Most often they do not and just have an overinflated sense of own ability.

I had a previous SO who is a surgical trainee. She told me point blank that she could read CT abdomen and pelvis as well as a senior radiology resident just by doing her general surgical residency....She was also convinced that she could manage diabetes as well as a senior medicine resident....

This attitude extends into practice where surgeons essentially took over many IR services after brief weekend courses while argue that other specialist can never do surgery...

In my experience working with trainees, work ethics, ability to work with patients and clinicians and the can-do attitude do not at all depend on where they did internship. There maybe some slight difference in knowledge that smooth out over the time of the residency and there is very little (if any) by the end.

As far as how much weight I put their internship for ESIR or fellowship selection? About as much weight as the hobby section on their CV, and sometimes the hobby section worth more.

I am not a surgeon, but when it comes to doing surgeries that I perform, I am confident that I can do it just as well as any of them. There is nothing mystical about their craft or our graft and practice makes perfect.

And stop putting them on a pedastal. We are all equal members of the same team trying to take care of our patients. In my opinion, a PCP is just as important as an IR and just as important as a neurosurgeon.
 
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I'm not very knowledgeable so please correct me if I'm way off here, but at most programs isn't the PGY1 surgical intern year mostly managing the floor with relatively few days scrubbing into cases?

Like, I can see how IM is even less relevant, but wouldn't a TY with lots of procedural/surgical elective rotations where you actually scrub in all day every day be the better option?
If you are keen you will absorb the knowledge around you (some by "diffusion" and some by reading around cases). Outside of vascular surgery, IMO scrubbing in is not a good use of time. Most major nonvascular surgeries do not use the same overlapping skill sets with IR except suturing skills on closing. Floor work, consults, clinic, ICU time, and small procedures (chest tubes, lines) are more useful. On call work in surgery is much more relevant. As an intern I had to make decisions on whether or not to call the attending surgeon or manage the consult/admission by myself, which often included using some basic imaging interpretation skills. That said you're still doing most of your radiology learning in radiology.
 
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Agree that attitude,work ethic, passion for the field, being unselfish (team player) trump almost anything else including your internship. But, if all things are equal, I personally want someone who is surgically minded as they have a can do and sure why not attitude. Also, those who did not shy away from a surgical internship suggests to me a certain work ethic that I wonder if the TY may or may not have.

Agree, vascular surgery is super high yield as you deal with acute limb ischemia, critical limb ischemia, diabetic foot management and wound care, vascular us and non invasive lab, bleeding complications, identify compartment syndrome, fistula creation, carotid disease, venous disease (varicose veins) , aortic disease and you get to practice your endovascular skills. In fact most surgical residents focus on open and will let you have your share of endovascular procedures so you may get your skill set up quickly. I do think it is helpful to interpret post operative scans with the surgical knowledge as you have been in the actual surgery seeing what they do (reading up before and after the case and asking questions will enable you to hone that knowledge).

Not all surgical programs are built a like and you want to identify a preliminary program that VIR graduates come out with a quality skill set and have a broad based experience including outpatient clinic, admissions, inpatient consults, operative time, and floor work.
 
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Agree that attitude,work ethic, passion for the field, being unselfish (team player) trump almost anything else including your internship. But, if all things are equal, I personally want someone who is surgically minded as they have a can do and sure why not attitude. Also, those who did not shy away from a surgical internship suggests to me a certain work ethic that I wonder if the TY may or may not have.

we can agree to disagree, but in my opinion and experience being surgically minded or not, or work ethics, have no relations to internship choices.

Many surgically minded IR have not done surgical internship. None of the surgically minded advanced endoscopist or cardiologist have done a surgical internship.
 
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we can agree to disagree, but in my opinion and experience being surgically minded or not, or work ethics, have no relations to internship choices.

Many surgically minded IR have not done surgical internship. None of the surgically minded advanced endoscopist or cardiologist have done a surgical internship.
Agree. But, it is a very small percentage of all the IM graduates that end up being of that mindset (aggressive IC or advanced endoscopists). It is a much higher percentage of surgeons / neurosurgeons/ VS who have that mindset.
 
Agree. But, it is a very small percentage of all the IM graduates that end up being of that mindset (aggressive IC or advanced endoscopists). It is a much higher percentage of surgeons / neurosurgeons/ VS who have that mindset.

Which is biased by the fact that people with surgical mindset self select into surgery that requires a surgical year.

It’s frankly offensive to insinuate there is any ultimate difference in ability or amplitude in INTERVENTIONAL RADIOLOGIST base on the type of internship an IR did.

Internship is just a foundation. The real learning in IR and IR related surgical techniques are done by IRs and for IRs with exception of things that IR don’t do such as SICU.

Perhaps you should look inward as to why you would hold another specialty on the pedestal. There are pros and cons in all different internship choices and one is not clearly
 
I think that for the majority of people, surgical internship is the way to go. Of course there are pros and cons for all but if I were to pick someone I would use that as a consideration.

There is a great deal of overlap in the endovascular arena and there are IC and VS who also can perform much of the endovascular procedures including embolizations. I think that for us to be have a seat at the table in the hospital systems our practice pattern has to be more reflective of surgery. Amongst administrators they understand clinic , OR procedures, hospital admissions. Hospital administrators lump IR into radiology and compare the volumes of IR procedures to those done by x-ray, CT, US and MRI.

An EVAR is seen differently, when it is done by a VIR in the IR suites as opposed to an IC in Cath lab or VS in the OR. The resource distribution is unfortunately different. Look at the amount of staff they have in the OR or Cath lab and compare it to the average VIR division. It takes time to ascertain and assimilate that.

Surgery is understood through out the globe , IR is currently not and in my opinion surgical internship is a great foundational year and you come out with a valuable skill set. Many come out of there with a "can do" attitude which I think can propel you to success as a VIR.
 
As someone going DR with an interest in procedural work it's pretty lame to think that years down the road someone might skip me for interview because I did a medicine prelim.

Also lame that TYs suggest a bad work ethic to some people. Sure, derm and rads people might often like them because they're chiller. But residents in ophtho, neuro and gas work plenty hard and the spots are coveted there too...
 
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It is just one of a checklist of things that people may look at. But certainly not the most important. Your VIR rotations will be most impactful for determining your candidacy for the 1 or 2 year independent residency. The letter writers and most importantly a phone call from a trusted interventionalist goes a long way. Your VIR research, your letters (including from the DR program director) , involvement in SIR all are important factors that are looked at. Finally once you get the interview , how well you interview and showcasing your passion for the specialty are what will be looked at .
 
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As someone going DR with an interest in procedural work it's pretty lame to think that years down the road someone might skip me for interview because I did a medicine prelim.

Also lame that TYs suggest a bad work ethic to some people. Sure, derm and rads people might often like them because they're chiller. But residents in ophtho, neuro and gas work plenty hard and the spots are coveted there too...

Out of the people I talk to in APDIR, some people hold similar opinion, but almost none will ever use that against you. You are better off ranking internship based on proximity to families and friends or yelp score of local restaurants and most would not bat an eye.

There is a minority of IRs who are seemingly self hating and wish they were surgeons and some even go as far to consider IRs who did not have formal surgical training inferior. I find this attitude laughable. Many great IRs have never had formal surgical training past medical school and it’s comical to suggest that internship choice is any predictive of work ethics.

In fact, I caution trainee who interview with IR programs to sniff out those kind of behavior. They tend to be harbinger of malignant training environments and poor fit for most. If you are going to be the majority of IRs who have no desire to be a surgeon nor feel inferior to one, don’t train with someone who do.
 
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Thank you for the discussion everyone! I'm ranking prelims also based on proximity to the advanced program as well as friends and family. For my #1 choice I vibed with the IM program close to family more so I'll choose that. They even offer 1 month on IR as an elective and can do a hepatology/anesthesia/heme elective so I think it's a good option. The closeby surg prelim I'm ranking #2. Hope they like me come match time.
 
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When looking for VIR training program, identify those programs who are expansile and willing and able to compete with other specialties for referrals (spine/pain interventions/ pad) and get referrals from primary care or directly from patients (BPH/fibroids) etc. You want to go to a program that is trying to build all service lines. I would look at the scope and breadth of practice and what the autonomy of the trainee is and at what level (are the PGY2,3,4 just doing lines and drains or more complex vascular interventions). Look for completeness in training including oncology, peripheral arterial disease, pain interventions, men and women's health, and neuro training. Try to get the case logs of the trainees of the program you are interested in.

You want to go to a program that is busy and where you see and do as much you can and deal with complications. The hours will be long, but when you get out and you are in a difficult complex case you will be able to reflect back to your training and remember ways to bail yourself out. The specialty is in an important transformational evolution and there will be differences of opinions as they standardize training.
 
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Surgical internship was long and difficult but I’m glad I sucked it up and did it. I think it was absolutely worth it and mostly enjoyable.
 
When looking for VIR training program, identify those programs who are expansile and willing and able to compete with other specialties for referrals (spine/pain interventions/ pad) and get referrals from primary care or directly from patients (BPH/fibroids) etc. You want to go to a program that is trying to build all service lines. I would look at the scope and breadth of practice and what the autonomy of the trainee is and at what level (are the PGY2,3,4 just doing lines and drains or more complex vascular interventions). Look for completeness in training including oncology, peripheral arterial disease, pain interventions, men and women's health, and neuro training. Try to get the case logs of the trainees of the program you are interested in.

You want to go to a program that is busy and where you see and do as much you can and deal with complications. The hours will be long, but when you get out and you are in a difficult complex case you will be able to reflect back to your training and remember ways to bail yourself out. The specialty is in an important transformational evolution and there will be differences of opinions as they standardize training.
Definitely. Thanks for the pointers I'll keep it in mind. Overall I'm surprised how different the different IR Programs are since none of my friends in other specialties have to evaluate programs in the same way I do. To ensure breadth of expeirences etc.
 
Definitely. Thanks for the pointers I'll keep it in mind. Overall I'm surprised how different the different IR Programs are since none of my friends in other specialties have to evaluate programs in the same way I do. To ensure breadth of expeirences etc.

There is a lot of diversity in the IR practice setting. In training you should strive to see as many different type of procedures and service line as possible. There is a large diversity in how IRs view themselves as well.

What further complicates matter is that IR programs that provide the largest variety of training may not be the one that is not effective in a job search. Certain program that is within Boston and contain letters like H and B do not perform the gamut of procedures some community IR program perform due to aggressive and skilled vascular surgeons and other specialist there. But grad from those program on the average outcompete a community IR program for jobs, even the ones that require PAD skill, etc. One of the former fellow at that program said: “Sure I am not as well versed in this matter from fellowship, but my new job saw where I came from and said come on in, we’ll train you”

So for a job in a tough-to-break-in location, it can come down to either go to a training program that will get you the job but not as well trained in all aspect of what the job requires, or go to a training program that will train you for the job but may not get you the job....tough decisions indeed.

The trainees I know personally usually chose to go to the program that get them the job and adapt. They do great because all IR skills are more or less evolved from some basic techniques and once those are mastered, one can easily pick up additional skills. Vascular surgeon certainly did that for PAD.
 
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