That's correct but that number includes DO and foreign schools. The average for MD is higher.
How hard is it to maintain a >3.5 SCIENCE GPA at columbia university?
- Thread starter medguy24
- Start date
That's correct but that number includes DO and foreign schools. The average for MD is higher.
I’ve heard that as well but what I don’t understand is that at my state school and a lot of other “normal not top 25 schools” the average science GPA of accepted students is also around a 3.5 . They don’t cut Columbia kids any slack for taking harder classes?
I mean if a kid goes to Columbia and takes “intensive organic chemistry for first year students” which is a really hard class and gets class average a B.
Then takes “intro to biology” taught by Deborah Mowshowitz, which is arguably the hardest course in Columbia and gets class average a B-.
Then takes Calc based General Physics and gets class average a B-.
Then takes a semester of Calc II and gets well above class average an A.
His science GPA is about a 3.0! That’s considered bad?
If the same kid were to go to his state school and put in the same effort and time and take the regular pre-med requirements (non calc based General chemistry, regular general biology, regular organic chemistry, non calc based general physics, and calculus) he can “definitely” get A, A-, B+, in his classes and get a 3.6 science GPA which is really good.
So your telling me the kid that went to Columbia and took the really hard classes, worked really hard, and got class average, and only had a 3.0 GPA probably wont get into medical school, whereas the kid that went to his state school took easier classes, worked hard- but not as hard, and got a 3.6 GPA probably will get into medical school?
If that’s true our system is really flawed…
- Joined
- May 27, 2014
- Messages
- 26
- Reaction score
- 28
Doesn't really matter where you go in my opinion (as long as it's a 4 year university within the top 100). Do well in school, get some EC's in, and be along your way into medical school.
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2012
- Messages
- 6,232
- Reaction score
- 7,578
Yes, it's bad. If you're consistently in the middle of the pack for basic science classes at ANY undergrad university, you are either underperforming or lack the academic ability to succeed at medical school. IMO.
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2010
- Messages
- 1,958
- Reaction score
- 2,076
Its true whether you like it or not. This is something that has been discussed ad nauseam in pre-allo and it always leads to ridiculous flame wars that end in the thread being locked. The search function is your friend if you want to explore this further, doing so in here won't yield different opinions or results.
What should i search for to see some of the threads?
jonnythan "Yes, it's bad. If you're consistently in the middle of the pack for basic science classes at ANY undergrad university, you are either underperforming or lack the academic ability to succeed at medical school. IMO."
Theres a HUGE difference between being "average' in a community college vs. being average in a state school vs. being average in an ivy league... so that argument dosent make sense ... if your in a group with 100 smart people and your "average" in that group, your still a very smart person. where as if your in a group with 100 normal people, and your in the top 5, that dosent mean your a smart person.. its better to be the tail of a lion than the head of a fox.
Theres a HUGE difference between being "average' in a community college vs. being average in a state school vs. being average in an ivy league... so that argument dosent make sense ... if your in a group with 100 smart people and your "average" in that group, your still a very smart person. where as if your in a group with 100 normal people, and your in the top 5, that dosent mean your a smart person.. its better to be the tail of a lion than the head of a fox.
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2012
- Messages
- 6,232
- Reaction score
- 7,578
Yes, there is. There's also a difference between being "average" in an Ivy vs top of the class at a CC. So what?
I stand by my statement. Medical school is going to be one heck of a challenge. You're setting yourself up to avoid anything resembling a serious challenge in the meantime, and I think that's the wrong decision. If you can succeed at Columbia, then awesome. You know you're up to the task of medical school. But what if you go to the state school, get a 3.9, then get to med school and realize you are completely unprepared for that sort of workload and level because the state school was so easy?
Challenge yourself. Believe in yourself.
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2010
- Messages
- 1,958
- Reaction score
- 2,076
Just search for ivies or any of the names of ivy schools (Princeton and Columbia seem to be the ones most often brought up in these threads). Its hard to be more specific than that as the threads usually start out on a somewhat unrelated topic and devolve from there. You could also just search the list of threads over the past few months and I'm sure you'll find plenty. Looking for locked threads may also help narrow things down. I'll take a look and see if I can come up with a few.
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2013
- Messages
- 208
- Reaction score
- 51
@medguy24 , it seems to me you're arguing for something you really want to believe. From what I've read being on this forum for a year now, what others have said is correct. You want to be top dog wherever you go; the institution you are at only plays a small contribution to "analyzing" your application (perhaps a 3.6 at Columbia is roughly regarded as a 3.7 somewhere else; something along those lines).
Bottom line: do your best at Columbia, don't worry about averages, and just do it. Plus, there are "average" people at every institution you go to; Columbia is not 100% comprised of diligent and intellectual students.
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2011
- Messages
- 488
- Reaction score
- 275
The system is very flawed. You are just realizing this? Your grade in intro biology affects your sGPA just as much as your grade in Proof-based Modern Analysis. Go figure. And Mowshowitz's class is not even close to the hardest at Columbia. Typical neurotic pre-med talk. Always think they have it the worst and deserve a hand-out in the application process.
Thats definably true.
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2014
- Messages
- 290
- Reaction score
- 297
That doesn't seem to be a realistic statement. I have yet to hear of people dropping out of med school because they went to a super easy undergrad and 4.0'd and now med school is suddenly too hard. I honestly don't see the point in going to a hard school when your 3.9 from any school will be considered excellent.
thats also true...
This is why i have a problem. Fabio Lanzoni and jonnythan both have two different view points that are both true yet both opposites. And i dont know which to follow. :/
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2014
- Messages
- 290
- Reaction score
- 297
Work smart, not hard is my philosophy. Why go through the stress of a top 25 school when you can basically get to the same place with a more chill school?
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2010
- Messages
- 1,958
- Reaction score
- 2,076
School reputation will do you very little in the application process. Go where you think you'll be happiest and do the best.
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2012
- Messages
- 6,232
- Reaction score
- 7,578
I can't yet speak for medical school, but I can speak for the difference between a good state school and RPI. The level of work I had to do at the state school (where I did the second half of my undergrad), in terms of quantity of work, amount of knowledge I actually needed to master, and amount of stuff I had to memorize, was a world apart from what I had to do at the engineering university. Just miles apart. There was no comparison between the students, professors, expectations, volume of information, and pace.
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2014
- Messages
- 290
- Reaction score
- 297
That is fair. I definitely agree that Berkeley will be different from Random University in terms of expectations, and amount of rigor, etc. But is that higher level of work really necessary for medical school? Ad coms seem to not place such a huge emphasis on it (especially because they all claim a 26 MCAT is sufficient). I went to a top school, but looking back I don't really see the point
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2012
- Messages
- 6,232
- Reaction score
- 7,578
If med school ends up being remotely as easy as State U, I'll be incredibly disappointed.
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2010
- Messages
- 1,958
- Reaction score
- 2,076
Found this one http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/top-private-schools-screwed.1072228/ its not as bad as some. Check MDforMee 's post/thread history as well.
The average MCATs of pre-meds at ivys are in the range of 34-35. You think these people lack the academic ability to succeed in medical school?
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2012
- Messages
- 6,232
- Reaction score
- 7,578
Are the people with 34s and 35s getting 3.0 sGPAs at Columbia? Probably not.
The average GPA at Columbia is more around a 3.5.
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2012
- Messages
- 6,232
- Reaction score
- 7,578
Yeah, that's the point. A 3.5/34 from Columbia is going to be fine for MD admissions. medguy is talking about pulling a 3.0 sGPA at Columbia by being in the middle of the pack in every class. My contention is that if you're in the middle of the pack at every class, you're either underperforming (which would definitely be the case if you pull a 34+ on the MCAT) or should be reconsidering how suited you are to medical school.
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2014
- Messages
- 290
- Reaction score
- 297
Source por favor! I keep hearing these stats but I have never been able to find them
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2014
- Messages
- 290
- Reaction score
- 297
The question here is if that "excellence" is superfluous or necessary. Do you need to run 6 minute miles when 8 minutes is good enough for admission to your track team? Same difference here. Ad coms have said repeatedly that the undergrad you attend doesn't make much of a difference and people from all types of undergrads aren't failing med school. There is no reason to attend a difficult school in my opinion.
A lot of the "more difficult" schools have a lot to offer outside of academics. The research opportunities at many Ivies and top schools are incredible and the connections that you can make (if you choose to seek them out) can be valuable not only for med school admissions but general networking for jobs/research gigs/doctors in the fields you might be interested in. That's not to say that you can't find these things at other schools but I'd hate for people to rule us out because of perceived coursework difficulty. A number of people here (including myself) have already pointed out that it's possible to get good grades and that kids often exaggerate the difficulty of their classes.
I don't know all that much about neuroplasticity, but my understanding is that the brain is constantly rewiring itself even into adulthood based on what you spend your time doing and thinking about. The more mental energy you put into doing a given thing, the more your brain gears itself towards that. If you're aiming for a competitive specialty in medical school, it makes sense to me that you should get in the habit of working hard sooner rather than later. If you spend all of high school and college taking it easy and relying on natural intelligence, you're likely going to struggle a lot more than the person who has spent those years crafting those neural pathways, figuring out how to learn and think.
As far as getting accepted goes, sure, going the less rigorous route is probably fine. It might even be better, because it would allow you more time for EC's, etc. All types of people manage to make it through medical school without failing out, but it might be interesting to look at what kind of students excel there. I would expect that a pretty big majority of people who go into more competitive specialties were overachievers during undergrad as well. But heck, I could be wrong. I know there is plenty of anecdotal evidence on either side.
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2012
- Messages
- 6,232
- Reaction score
- 7,578
I guess the question is whether you want to be average and just get by, or you want to be as good as you can be.
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2014
- Messages
- 290
- Reaction score
- 297
I agree. There are many perks to attending a top school that you outline. Perhaps it is down to the individual to see what they value most.
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2014
- Messages
- 290
- Reaction score
- 297
That is true as well. It all depends on your end goal I suppose
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2014
- Messages
- 290
- Reaction score
- 297
Yep. To some, that "be the best you can be" feeling is worth all that trouble. To others, it's not.
As much as I think it's important to work hard, it's also important to do what you want to do... You don't want to chase the carrot, work yourself to death and become a doctor, only to regret "wasting the best years of your life".
Despite everything I wrote above, I didn't work hard in undergrad... Not when it came to academics, anyways. I partied, chased dreams and chased girls. I'm glad medicine was not on my radar at the time because I would not have been mature enough, and would have been miserable forcing myself to study. I'm almost 27 now and doing a post-bac, working super hard (because I want to) and loving every minute of it. If I had gone to med school straight out of undergrad, I'm positive I would have spent the rest of my life asking "what if?" But because of the path I took, I know the answer to that question now and won't have to ask it later.
Having fun is important. Working hard is important. I dunno. Life is complicated.
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2013
- Messages
- 1,902
- Reaction score
- 1,538
Yale has PDFs on their pre-med site with MCAT averages at 34-35. Try to search it up. Someone posted them the other day too.
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2014
- Messages
- 290
- Reaction score
- 297
Ok I googled it without much luck, but according to old SDN threads, those figures are for either accepted pre meds from those schools, or people who applied after getting letters from their pre med committees. In the first scenario, the average accepted MCAT would obviously be high, especially coming from Ivies, who would produce good test takers in the first place. In the second scenario, those committees screen out sub-par applicants from applying in the first place so the averages are inflated vs. other schools were there is no screen.
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2013
- Messages
- 1,902
- Reaction score
- 1,538
I was gonna mention the committees screening lower MCATs out; either way, that's probably where the stats come from.
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2012
- Messages
- 7,691
- Reaction score
- 13,050
I'm only able to speak for my school, but we 100% don't screen people. People may be encouraged to wait a year if advisors think they'll have a better chance, but if they insist on applying, no one is ever denied. Our average MCAT is also very high.
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2014
- Messages
- 290
- Reaction score
- 297
But even then, how is this data collected? Is it self reported? Do you submit a print out of your score? How do they know who took the test? Do they include everyone's scores or just the ones that get accepted? There are tons of ways to manipulate average data to look amazing for marketing purposes. Like I've said before, there's no way every single medical school in this country is "above average in STEP I" and "super chill and so collaborative." I vomit a little on the inside every time I hear those poor marketing techniques.
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2012
- Messages
- 7,691
- Reaction score
- 13,050
Our advisors ask (tell) us to click the box somewhere on the AMCAS application that allows them to see some of our information, which I know includes MCAT scores (unsure of what else). We also generally self-report if we go in for advising which is basically everyone, but it's backed up by the AMCAS submission.
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2012
- Messages
- 3,226
- Reaction score
- 2,490
A person who is underperforming in every single class at Columbia (key word is every) that they get a 3.0 is unlikely to pull a 3.6 GPA at another university unless that university literally has very very low bars of admission. The majority of universities in the country are not easy, especially in premed science classes.
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2010
- Messages
- 11,799
- Reaction score
- 2,808
Welp, guess I should withdraw my app.
- Joined
- May 27, 2014
- Messages
- 26
- Reaction score
- 28
Why is that?
I'm guessing his college is outside of the top 100 even though he's one of the best applicants in the country.
D
deleted503015
I'm not going to read this whole thread, but yes, it is doable, and the class most people struggle in is actually intro bio. (and yeah, definitely not the hardest class at columbia. volume of reading for core classes is hilarious and humanly impossible.) Worry about getting into college first though?
Also I saw someone talking about first year orgo--when I took it, it was deliberately curved to about a b+ so people wouldn't be discouraged from taking it. According to my transcript, 30% of the class got an a- or above in first semester, and 67% got a- or above second semester. It's the 30 best chemistry students in the class. They don't want to crush them.
Edit: since there are all these comments about % A's--our transcripts show that. The class with the lowest percent A/A- that I took was second semester of intro bio. And that was 26%.
Last edited by a moderator:
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2012
- Messages
- 224
- Reaction score
- 76
You do realize that not everyone gets in to medical school ?
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2013
- Messages
- 470
- Reaction score
- 420
Don't ****ing do it.
I go there. Huge mistake. My sci gpa is so low and med schools care more about gpa more than they do about school.
Go to a state school.
Please.
I go there. Huge mistake. My sci gpa is so low and med schools care more about gpa more than they do about school.
Go to a state school.
Please.
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2010
- Messages
- 442
- Reaction score
- 140
None of this matters because you have not gotten in. You apply ED if there's no debate and it's your dream school. More opportunities at Columbia, probably easier time/slightly higher GPA at your state school. Don't put the cart before the horse and start asking about grade distribution and college GPA. No one can predict your future and how well you adjust to college, who your roommates are, what professor is teaching that course that year, etc.
Similar threads
