How hard is it to match into a top 10 residency program?

[Ucme2]

Hi all,

Im currently an MS3 with a new-found interest in ophtho. Ive already garnered a good bit of advice from this forum but there is still one thing I have been wondering that I haven't seen explicitly addressed.

My question is what does it take to land a coveted spot at one of these top tier programs (specifically USC, UCLA, U of U, OHSU, Iowa, Miami)? How hard is it really to nab a position?

Quick bio: average medical school, 265 Step 1, multiple research publications and posters in non-ophtho surgical subspecialty, currently no ophtho research but that is in the works, no other real distinguishing features (connections, outstanding extracurriculars etc.).

I know everyone who matches in ophtho is already outstanding to a certain degree, but what is it about the people who land one of these top spots that sets them apart from those who only match at "average" programs? Any tips? Would y'all recommend an away at one of these top programs if I can manage it? Any advice on how to develop big name connections if limited by a fairly run of the mill ophtho program at my school? As of now my plan is just to try to crank out some ophtho research.

Cheers mates!

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[Game of Cones]

I'm in the current cohort of applicants but my two cents is lots of factors at play and nothing is a given. Top ten program requires good step, probably AOA or otherwise great grades, strong research, interesting life story/personality, strong letters ideally from well known faculty, killer personality/life story. "Pedigree" matters too tbh. None of these are make or break and there are certainly just very interesting individuals out there with many of these features. Luck matters. Always can help.

Seems like you should be able to match with your stats but no one here can ever guarantee you will match at a top ten. Lots of strong programs outside of the top ten. Lots. Maybe be a little more open minded.

 

[Ucme2]

I'm in the current cohort of applicants but my two cents is lots of factors at play and nothing is a given. Top ten program requires good step, probably AOA or otherwise great grades, strong research, interesting life story/personality, strong letters ideally from well known faculty, killer personality/life story. "Pedigree" matters too tbh. None of these are make or break and there are certainly just very interesting individuals out there with many of these features. Luck matters. Always can help.

Seems like you should be able to match with your stats but no one here can ever guarantee you will match at a top ten. Lots of strong programs outside of the top ten. Lots. Maybe be a little more open minded.

Thanks for the response! It's good to hear that there are a lot of other strong programs.

What do you mean by "pedigree?"
Also any tips on how to get to know "well known faculty" for a letter? The school I attend has a fairly weak ophtho program.

Thanks!

 

[CarpetWindow7]

Thanks for the response! It's good to hear that there are a lot of other strong programs.

What do you mean by "pedigree?"
Also any tips on how to get to know "well known faculty" for a letter? The school I attend has a fairly weak ophtho program.

Thanks!

Be careful with such comments as "run of the mill". You never know, may end up matching at a "run of the mill" program. Nothing is a given, granted, on paper you should be set.

 

[Slide]

Don’t get too caught up in solely matching at a top 10 program. It is not necessarily an indicator you will get the training that you want at the end of residency. If you are interested in just doing general ophthalmology this holds even more true.

 

[Ucme2]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I don't want to come across at all that I would be discontent at an "average" or "run of the mill" program. In fact at the end of the day I really just want good training and Ill be happy to get that no matter the reputation of the school and I'm glad to hear that it sounds like that is available at many programs.

Part of the reason I asked in the first place is that there is one program that seems to be a really good fit for me and happens to be in a prime location for where I want to live. It also happens to be a top 10 residency... This is really where my question was stemming from. Trying to pick the brains of people on here of what might set apart someone who matches at such a competitive program.

I see often, and even some have mentioned it in this thread, that having a letter from a distinguished ophthalmologist can be key to setting apart an applicant. Any advice on how to establish such a connection if no such distinguished faculty are available at my current institution?

Thanks again!

 

[Game of Cones]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I don't want to come across at all that I would be discontent at an "average" or "run of the mill" program. In fact at the end of the day I really just want good training and Ill be happy to get that no matter the reputation of the school and I'm glad to hear that it sounds like that is available at many programs.

Part of the reason I asked in the first place is that there is one program that seems to be a really good fit for me and happens to be in a prime location for where I want to live. It also happens to be a top 10 residency... This is really where my question was stemming from. Trying to pick the brains of people on here of what might set apart someone who matches at such a competitive program.

I see often, and even some have mentioned it in this thread, that having a letter from a distinguished ophthalmologist can be key to setting apart an applicant. Any advice on how to establish such a connection if no such distinguished faculty are available at my current institution?

Thanks again!

I understand - just be ready for any potentialities including not getting interviews at any top ten. It could certainly happen. Which is why matching at one is even more difficult.

As far as the letter, doing an away can be one way to do this but it needs to be the right away and you need to shine. Aways are a double edged sword so be careful. I ended up not doing an away so someone else may have a better sense of which ones are good to get a solid letter, possibly from a big wig. Very strong and personable letters from less known faculty are also great but may do less to land a "top ten".

By pedigree, I meant some programs like students from "top ten, top 20" med schools and top undergrad in some cases as well.

 

[deep582]

I was in a VERY similar situation to you regarding board scores, home program, connections, etc... I ended up at one of those programs without doing any aways, probably due to dumb luck tbh. But what I did do was crank out a LOT of research (10+ papers published or in the works) and GET AOA. Seriously, it's so important it's stupid, given how meaningless it actually is. As many people mentioned "pedigree" is heavily over weighted. But when you are at a mid tier school, they literally discredit you immediately if you aren't AOA. If you have scores, research, AOA, and reasonable letters then you will get at least some top tier interviews. At the interview you just need to show that you are a good "resident", i.e. hard working, don't complain about stuff, go the extra mile, easy to get along with etc.

 

[Ucme2]

I was in a VERY similar situation to you regarding board scores, home program, connections, etc... I ended up at one of those programs without doing any aways, probably due to dumb luck tbh. But what I did do was crank out a LOT of research (10+ papers published or in the works) and GET AOA. Seriously, it's so important it's stupid, given how meaningless it actually is. As many people mentioned "pedigree" is heavily over weighted. But when you are at a mid tier school, they literally discredit you immediately if you aren't AOA. If you have scores, research, AOA, and reasonable letters then you will get at least some top tier interviews. At the interview you just need to show that you are a good "resident", i.e. hard working, don't complain about stuff, go the extra mile, easy to get along with etc.

Thanks for the feedback! I should have a strong chance at AOA as I have honored pretty much everything so far but getting the research may be a bit more challenging. I have two publications currently and two more in the process of being submitted (only 1st author on 1/4) but none are in ophtho. The department at my school has very little active research- not enough to crank out papers like you did. Has anyone heard of students doing research at other schools besides their home institution?

 

[pianist]

Very difficult, very much a crapshoot. This probably holds true for even top 20 programs, but these places get 300-400 applicants and easily get 50-60 applicants with score about 250-260, probably more. Many places do not go down past 5 or 10 on rank list to fill their spots. To match top 10 you have to be among top 50ish candidates your year. To make it harder, numerous programs consistently take their own med students, so you don't even have a chance to begin with. California programs (UCLA,USC,UCSF,UCSD,Stanford) are all extremely difficult, everyone wants to be in California.

Bottom line is do your best, apply widely and hope for the best, but don't count on it. There are many good programs, there's no secret sauce at a top residency. Just some places with more brand name/famous people.

 

[kiwi-doc]

Quite honestly, no on is going to care that your home program has a weak ophtho department. I totally understand how that limits your ability to do ophtho research, but you have to find a way to overcome that. There are a lot of fantastic candidates (one of the best parts of the interview trail is meeting them all and realizing what a cool crop of people are involved in ophtho). There isn't a secret formula to getting into a top ten program. You need outstanding board scores, outstanding clinical grades, and great letters. AOA and research are obviously important as well. A compelling personal narrative is always great as well. If you are weak in one area, you have to have some other way of compensating for that weakness. None of these are absolutely critical, but it never hurts to have them all obviously.

That said, the most important thing is are you, on a personal level, going to be a good asset to the program - a team player that fits the ethos of the institution. This brings me to aways. I did two aways at two top ten programs, and I am glad I did. Obviously people match without doing them as well. I think it depends on your home program. If it is weak, I would lean toward doing it. People say you have to shine, but that isn't true. No one expects you to know a ton about ophtho - there really isnt much exposure during medical school. So, if you make an effort to read up before you will be fine from a knowledge perspective. What they are really looking for is to make sure that you (using "you" in the general sense here) aren't a tool. I was kind of blown away by how clueless some rotators could be on aways. These are enduring personality traits that aren't going to be change over the course of the interview cycle anyway. I had the opportunity to meet all the residents and a ton of faculty on my aways. When I went back, the interview felt way more comfortable.

That's just my two cents. Always remember this is an n=1 so what worked/didn't work for me is situational. I ended up matching at one of my away spots, which is a top ten program. And last parting words, rank and reputation are undoubtedly important, especially if you want to do academia, but you need to find a place that fits you. You can leverage pretty much any program to your strengths if you feel comfortable there. There were many surprise programs that I was way more interested in than a handful of top ten programs. Find what fits for you. Good luck

 

[kukuma]

Quite honestly, no on is going to care that your home program has a weak ophtho department. I totally understand how that limits your ability to do ophtho research, but you have to find a way to overcome that. There are a lot of fantastic candidates (one of the best parts of the interview trail is meeting them all and realizing what a cool crop of people are involved in ophtho). There isn't a secret formula to getting into a top ten program. You need outstanding board scores, outstanding clinical grades, and great letters. AOA and research are obviously important as well. A compelling personal narrative is always great as well. If you are weak in one area, you have to have some other way of compensating for that weakness. None of these are absolutely critical, but it never hurts to have them all obviously.

That said, the most important thing is are you, on a personal level, going to be a good asset to the program - a team player that fits the ethos of the institution. This brings me to aways. I did two aways at two top ten programs, and I am glad I did. Obviously people match without doing them as well. I think it depends on your home program. If it is weak, I would lean toward doing it. People say you have to shine, but that isn't true. No one expects you to know a ton about ophtho - there really isnt much exposure during medical school. So, if you make an effort to read up before you will be fine from a knowledge perspective. What they are really looking for is to make sure that you (using "you" in the general sense here) aren't a tool. I was kind of blown away by how clueless some rotators could be on aways. These are enduring personality traits that aren't going to be change over the course of the interview cycle anyway. I had the opportunity to meet all the residents and a ton of faculty on my aways. When I went back, the interview felt way more comfortable.

That's just my two cents. Always remember this is an n=1 so what worked/didn't work for me is situational. I ended up matching at one of my away spots, which is a top ten program. And last parting words, rank and reputation are undoubtedly important, especially if you want to do academia, but you need to find a place that fits you. You can leverage pretty much any program to your strengths if you feel comfortable there. There were many surprise programs that I was way more interested in than a handful of top ten programs. Find what fits for you. Good luck

Thanks your sharing your experiences. I just got an away spot at a top ten program for July, and I was wondering if you have recommendations about good sources to read from or topics to read about for an introductory rotation. Also, did you request a LOR from any aways? If so, was there anything in particular you did to foster a strong relationship in that time? Finally, how important do you think aways can be in terms of making up for deficiencies in applications (in my case I'm talking about step score in mid-240s, few papers in ophthalmology)?

 

[kiwi-doc]

Thanks your sharing your experiences. I just got an away spot at a top ten program for July, and I was wondering if you have recommendations about good sources to read from or topics to read about for an introductory rotation. Also, did you request a LOR from any aways? If so, was there anything in particular you did to foster a strong relationship in that time? Finally, how important do you think aways can be in terms of making up for deficiencies in applications (in my case I'm talking about step score in mid-240s, few papers in ophthalmology)?

I did not ask for an away letter. I think it puts too much pressure on the situation, and it is kind of unfair to ask someone to evaluate you based on a month. Maybe you could just do it for that particular program. I tried to work with the same few people over my month and was able to foster good relationships with them. By the time I returned for my interview, I knew them quite well and the interview was much more natural. I think aways can help land interviews, but I don't think they will necessarily make up for big deficiencies. It's ultimately just one piece of the puzzle. That said, programs really want to make sure the people they recruit are good to work with, which is what you can show during the away.