How hard is matching into radiation oncology or another competitive specialty...

[Penner]

... For someone who's smart enough to get >3.8 in college and >40 on the MCAT, and willing to work pretty hard to attain his/her goals?

Is it comparable to getting into a top 10 med school? Much harder? Easier?

Or is it pretty likely that someone who's smart enough and willing to work hard in med school will match into a rad/onc program if he/she applies to enough?

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[ButImLETired]

... For someone who's smart enough to get >3.8 in college and >40 on the MCAT, and willing to work pretty hard to attain his/her goals?

Is it comparable to getting into a top 10 med school? Much harder? Easier?

Or is it pretty likely that someone who's smart enough and willing to work hard in med school will match into a rad/onc program if he/she applies to enough?

Rad/onc is a little tricky because it's one of the specialties that basically requires quite a bit of research experience. Most rad/onc residents I know here are actually MD/PhD (although to be fair, our rad/onc residency is particularly research focused and academic).

The best way to find out this kind of stuff is to look at the NRMP charting outcomes data (don't have it on hand, google it, i think it's just called "charting outcomes from the match") which breaks down what PD's from each specialty value the most, how many residents had AOA, etc. As a rule though, rad/onc generally requires high grades (mostly clinical years), high Step 1 score, definitely lots of research (so coming from a research powerhouse will help), and the usual rotation in rad/onc and good LORs.

I don't really know what to say about your intelligence and getting >40. Er...I guess if you're very smart and determined, you remain very disciplined, you study your butt off through priclinicals and step 1 and you impress your residents (all the while finding time to do research), then yes, you have a good chance. I'd try to go to a fairly well-known research school if rad/onc is your thing though, it's definitely the kind of specialty for which that would help.

 

[drizzt3117]

LET's summary is pretty good. Rad onc is also pretty serious about their ppl having extremely strong quant backgrounds. I work with medical physics ppl on a daily basis and have an engineering background but a lot of the concepts they're working on is extremely complex. It's one of the fields that has a strong interest in basic science / technical pubs/presentations over clinical ones as well.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

RadOnc is a field I'm extremely interested in and from what I understand, there's a pretty heavy focus on research. Just like the other competitive specialties, it seems that a strong Step I score, good LoRs, etc are important as well. But, like LET said, there's a strong focus on research. It's a very academic field (which is part of its appeal to me).

I don't know if you should specifically aim for a research powerhouse type of med school though. There are several summer and year-long research fellowships that you don't have to stay at your school for. For example, I believe MD Anderson has a pretty nice summer research program for med students. Other year long research positions include NIH fellowships, HHMI, Doris Duke, etc. I don't how radonc specific you can make those last two though.

 

[drizzt3117]

RadOnc is a field I'm extremely interested in and from what I understand, there's a pretty heavy focus on research. Just like the other competitive specialties, it seems that a strong Step I score, good LoRs, etc are important as well. But, like LET said, there's a strong focus on research. It's a very academic field (which is part of its appeal to me).

I don't know if you should specifically aim for a research powerhouse type of med school though. There are several summer and year-long research fellowships that you don't have to stay at your school for. For example, I believe MD Anderson has a pretty nice summer research program for med students. Other year long research positions include NIH fellowships, HHMI, Doris Duke, etc. I don't how radonc specific you can make those last two though.

most of the people at the prestigious year off programs are from top schools, though, they are quite competitive. Rad onc and prs are pretty much the most competitive specialties, there just aren't many spots.

 

[MossPoh]

It is as hard as it is for the 3.5, 30 MCAT person who works hard to get.

 

[Penner]

It is as hard as it is for the 3.5, 30 MCAT person who works hard to get.

Really? Because according to this:
http://www.medfriends.org/step1_estimator/

A 40 can be estimated to translate to a 256 +/- 17 on the Step 1 while a 30 translates to a 233 +/- 17.

And according to this:
http://www.aamc.org/programs/cim/chartingoutcomes.pdf

Radiation oncology applicants with a 256 have a ~93% chance of matching while ones with a 233 have an ~85% chance of matching.

Sure, it's possible for the 3.5/30 to get the same Step 1 score as the 3.8/40, but if I had to bet, my money would go to the guy who got a 3.8/40 to get the higher score and have a higher likelihood of matching.

 

[Renaissance Man]

haha owned

 

[ThaliaNox]

Really? Because according to this:
http://www.medfriends.org/step1_estimator/

A 40 can be estimated to translate to a 256 +/- 17 on the Step 1 while a 30 translates to a 233 +/- 17.

And according to this:
http://www.aamc.org/programs/cim/chartingoutcomes.pdf

Radiation oncology applicants with a 256 have a ~93% chance of matching while ones with a 233 have an ~85% chance of matching.

Sure, it's possible for the 3.5/30 to get the same Step 1 score as the 3.8/40, but if I had to bet, my money would go to the guy who got a 3.8/40 to get the higher score and have a higher likelihood of matching.

I'm going to be the statistics Nazi here. Those differences are not highly statistically significant. The MCAT correllation ranges overlap by a large amount. (256-17=329 and 233+17=250) Their chance of matching is only 8% apart. MCAT is not an excellent predictor of USMLE scores, as admitted on the site you linked. Also, that site is not based on real scores, but on annonymous submission of scores by visitors, making the whole distribution suspect.

Now, I'm not saying that someone who got a 40 on the MCAT (Keep in mind how rare this is...) wouldn't be likely to do better on the USMLE than someone who got a 30, but the data you linked proves nothing about how strong the correllation might be.

 

[ButImLETired]

Really? Because according to this:
http://www.medfriends.org/step1_estimator/

A 40 can be estimated to translate to a 256 +/- 17 on the Step 1 while a 30 translates to a 233 +/- 17.

And according to this:
http://www.aamc.org/programs/cim/chartingoutcomes.pdf

Radiation oncology applicants with a 256 have a ~93% chance of matching while ones with a 233 have an ~85% chance of matching.

Sure, it's possible for the 3.5/30 to get the same Step 1 score as the 3.8/40, but if I had to bet, my money would go to the guy who got a 3.8/40 to get the higher score and have a higher likelihood of matching.

+/- 17, huh? Wow, that IS a great correlation!

Just wait until you see what Step 1 is like and try to compare it to the MCAT. Hell, just wait until you see what med school is like and how incredibly different it is from undergrad and you see how many 4.0ers struggle. Remember, in a class where the average MCAT is a 38 and the average GPA is a 3.9, 50% of those people will be in the bottom 50 and just trying to stay afloat. And the amount of information on the MCAT vs the amount of information on Step 1 are so disparate it's actually pretty funny. It's like trying to learn goodnight moon by heart in a month vs moby dick in 2 weeks.

Of COURSE, if you're a great test taker, and you work extremely hard and you're very determined, you'll do fine on Step 1. But people who get 40s aren't necessarily good at/used to studying 12 hours a day for 6 or 7 weeks, and that IS what it takes to do well on Step 1. I sure as hell didn't do that for the MCAT, and I did well on it.

So yeah, maybe if you get a 40 you have a slightly better chance of doing super well than the kid with the 30. But you'll discover that Wash U doesn't have the highest Step 1 average (assuming the averages reported by the schools are correct) despite having the highest MCAT average, and the highest Step 1 scores each year often come from...the Carib. So I wouldn't make any major assumptions about how baller you're going to be come med school. I tell you this for your own good. Once you start, you'll see that no one talks about their gpa and mcat and that it really doesn't matter at all- you're all on the very same plane. For some people this can be disconcerting. For others, liberating. Unfortunately, this process makes you look at yourself in terms of numbers and judge others based on that too. Move past that. Don't be that guy.

 

[thesauce]

Really? Because according to this:
http://www.medfriends.org/step1_estimator/

A 40 can be estimated to translate to a 256 +/- 17 on the Step 1 while a 30 translates to a 233 +/- 17.

And according to this:
http://www.aamc.org/programs/cim/chartingoutcomes.pdf

Radiation oncology applicants with a 256 have a ~93% chance of matching while ones with a 233 have an ~85% chance of matching.

Sure, it's possible for the 3.5/30 to get the same Step 1 score as the 3.8/40, but if I had to bet, my money would go to the guy who got a 3.8/40 to get the higher score and have a higher likelihood of matching.

If you knew all this, why did you start the thread?

 

[GMed]

... For someone who's smart enough to get >3.8 in college and >40 on the MCAT, and willing to work pretty hard to attain his/her goals?

Is it comparable to getting into a top 10 med school? Much harder? Easier?

Or is it pretty likely that someone who's smart enough and willing to work hard in med school will match into a rad/onc program if he/she applies to enough?

For the person you stated above, he or she def has a better chance, but nothing is guaranteed. Just like getting into a top 10 medical school, alot of it has to do with luck in addition to the hard work. Since 3rd year clinical grades and 4th year subI/(specialty you are going into) grades are the most important criteria in my mind, you have to remember that the grading is very subjective based on the attending you have. If he or she doesn't like you, you might not get the grade you think you deserve. Alot of it also depends on your emotional IQ, which doesn't have any correlation with the GPA and MCAT. How willing are you to suck it up and take it up the A** when an attending yells at you and calls you a ****** in front of the patients or how willing are you to go that extra mile and do a presentation thats optional on rounds when you are only getting 2 hours of sleep that night. GPA and MCAT in mind has more correlation with how well you'll do 1st and 2nd year, but the grades for these years in general are not really looked upon very heavily.

 

[drizzt3117]

Pretty clear the most important factor is step...

the whole thing about subjectivity is a bit overblown IMO. It's a matter of degrees. Superstars are going to be superstars and mediocre students are going to be mediocre. Sure there will be more variability than during pre-clinicals, but those people who are really well prepared and good with people are going to do well and those that aren't, won't.

For the person you stated above, he or she def has a better chance, but nothing is guaranteed. Just like getting into a top 10 medical school, alot of it has to do with luck in addition to the hard work. Since 3rd year clinical grades and 4th year subI/(specialty you are going into) grades are the most important criteria in my mind, you have to remember that the grading is very subjective based on the attending you have. If he or she doesn't like you, you might not get the grade you think you deserve. Alot of it also depends on your emotional IQ, which doesn't have any correlation with the GPA and MCAT. How willing are you to suck it up and take it up the A** when an attending yells at you and calls you a ****** in front of the patients or how willing are you to go that extra mile and do a presentation thats optional on rounds when you are only getting 2 hours of sleep that night. GPA and MCAT in mind has more correlation with how well you'll do 1st and 2nd year, but the grades for these years in general are not really looked upon very heavily.