How imperitive is a 3.0 GPA?

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DNARNAPROTEIN

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I graduated in 2003 with a BS in Bio/Econ and 2.633 gpa and 144 credits. Went back to school in summer of 2006 and have since taken 44 post-bacc credits(upper level bio mostly) with a 4.0. Now I'm at a 2.94. I figure that if I take an additional 9 credits, I would be at 3.0. Unfortunately, I am soon having major surgery which requires 6 weeks recovery and will run into spring semester. My question is: would I have a shot anywhere with the 2.94 or should I put off applying until next year after taking at least 9 more credits?
 
I got into GA-PCOM with a 2.68 and 33P on the MCAT. Like you, this is with a strong upward trend (80+ hours of hard science coursework). I just started in a deeper hole than you.
 
Some schools have automatic 3.0 cutoffs so I would make sure any schools that you are really interested in don't.
 
depends...but its pretty imperative. From mdapplicants and other anecdotal evidence, you'd need a god-like MCAT to have a chance sub 3.0. Something like 39+.
 
I graduated in 2003 with a BS in Bio/Econ and 2.633 gpa and 144 credits. Went back to school in summer of 2006 and have since taken 44 post-bacc credits(upper level bio mostly) with a 4.0. Now I'm at a 2.94. I figure that if I take an additional 9 credits, I would be at 3.0. Unfortunately, I am soon having major surgery which requires 6 weeks recovery and will run into spring semester. My question is: would I have a shot anywhere with the 2.94 or should I put off applying until next year after taking at least 9 more credits?


At schools with an automatic GPA cutoff, you will be at a significant disadvantage. It's difficult to know which schools these are. Even with a 3.0, you are still well below the average for medical school matriculants.The other thing that is within your control is the rest of your application. Make sure that the rest of your application is excellent and apply broadly and to many schools. This is expensive but you increase your chances the more schools that you apply to. You have the fact that you show an upward trend in GPA which is good but you need the rest of your application to be as strong as possible.
 
I graduated in 2003 with a BS in Bio/Econ and 2.633 gpa and 144 credits. Went back to school in summer of 2006 and have since taken 44 post-bacc credits(upper level bio mostly) with a 4.0. Now I'm at a 2.94. I figure that if I take an additional 9 credits, I would be at 3.0. Unfortunately, I am soon having major surgery which requires 6 weeks recovery and will run into spring semester. My question is: would I have a shot anywhere with the 2.94 or should I put off applying until next year after taking at least 9 more credits?
None of us can really tell you for sure. But if it were me, I'd wait the year if only because the stress of recovering from major surgery and applying to med school right afterward is going to be tough, and it leaves you little extra time for dealing with unanticipated issues that might arise. On one hand, it seems like, oh, sure, six months is a lot of recovery time when it's only supposed to take you six weeks, but we are assuming a best case scenario where nothing goes wrong with your surgery and recovery. I hope that will be the case, but I think it would be prudent to give yourself the extra time just in case you need it even if for financial reasons. You have already been out of school for a few years and you will not be applying at age 21 no matter what you do, so there is no need to rush and potentially not be the best possible applicant that you are capable of being. Medical school will be waiting when you are ready. Best of :luck: to you. 🙂
 
To be honest for MD schools, you are mostly looking at in-state schools being by far your best shot. It would help if you let us know what state you're in.

TexasTri, you are getting a look from TX MD schools, correct?
 
I'm in NY.

So far, I'm thinking I'm going to put it off another year...take some more credits, research, and volunteer.

How do you view my chances if I do an SMP this year and do stellar instead?
 
No, my MD interviews have been out of state. Not a peep from TX MD schools or TCOM.

My out of state MD interviews were the last time I applied. I got my AMCAS in a lot later this time, and still haven't heard back from them either accept or reject. I am going to mail in my deposit check to GA-PCOM next week, after I get paid, and then I will close up shop. I will be withdrawing my application from all other schools once I make the commitment to GA-PCOM. I actually see some very good opportunities there, and I like the small class-size (80). DO/MD doesn't concern me, because I know I can do what it takes to get wherever I want with either.
 
I graduated in 2003 with a BS in Bio/Econ and 2.633 gpa and 144 credits. Went back to school in summer of 2006 and have since taken 44 post-bacc credits(upper level bio mostly) with a 4.0. Now I'm at a 2.94. I figure that if I take an additional 9 credits, I would be at 3.0. Unfortunately, I am soon having major surgery which requires 6 weeks recovery and will run into spring semester. My question is: would I have a shot anywhere with the 2.94 or should I put off applying until next year after taking at least 9 more credits?

My question would be if you are interested in DO schools? My GPA is about the same as yours, but when AACOMAS calculates it the retakes replace the first grade instead of both counting, so I have a 3.1 there. For me, I wanted to go DO anyways, but if you are interested, perhaps there is a C or something that you can retake in the spring that will dramatically impact your GPA, then you can shoot for a good MCAT. If you app is strong otherwise, you should have a good chance (perhaps even at some MD schools like TT said).
 
I'm in NY.

So far, I'm thinking I'm going to put it off another year...take some more credits, research, and volunteer.

How do you view my chances if I do an SMP this year and do stellar instead?
Versus taking more UG classes? It's higher risk (you're sunk if you don't do well) and I don't know for how much more reward. Try posting in the mentor forum and see if anyone in the know can give you some specific advice about post-bac versus SMP.
I am going to mail in my deposit check to GA-PCOM next week, after I get paid, and then I will close up shop. I will be withdrawing my application from all other schools once I make the commitment to GA-PCOM. I actually see some very good opportunities there, and I like the small class-size (80). DO/MD doesn't concern me, because I know I can do what it takes to get wherever I want with either.
FWIW, coming from a total stranger, I think you're doing the right thing. Congrats on your acceptance and give 'em hell. 🙂
 
This thread and my whining about Ochem in the other got me thinking, in our University, in the Biology, Chemistry, and Physics departments, the average grades are in the 70's. In the rest of the school it is not that difficult to get A's.

Is this *normal*? If so, I guess a lot of people get crushed right then and there.
 
Depends on your MCAT,

Actually this is not true. It's not like there's any score that is going to balance out a sub 3.0 GPA. The sliding scale approach to numerical stats is largely a myth. Don't expect anything to balance anything else out. Treat everything in the app (grades, MCAT, ECs) as having to each be independently adequate for med school admission. Because most schools will. They are looking for that one reason to eliminate you from the other 10,000 applications they are getting. A low MCAT OR a low GPA OR poor LORs OR inadequate ECs OR poor essays, etc, are all enough, independently for them to give the thumbs down.
 
I'm in NY.

So far, I'm thinking I'm going to put it off another year...take some more credits, research, and volunteer.

How do you view my chances if I do an SMP this year and do stellar instead?

Most of the better SMP programs require a 3.0, precisely because you still need an adequate undergrad GPA for the SMP to give you that extra push.
 
Actually this is not true. It's not like there's any score that is going to balance out a sub 3.0 GPA. The sliding scale approach to numerical stats is largely a myth. Don't expect anything to balance anything else out. Treat everything in the app (grades, MCAT, ECs) as having to each be independently adequate for med school admission. Because most schools will. They are looking for that one reason to eliminate you from the other 10,000 applications they are getting. A low MCAT OR a low GPA OR poor LORs OR inadequate ECs OR poor essays, etc, are all enough, independently for them to give the thumbs down.
As an applicant who applied with no UG GPA and a 43 MCAT and got rejected from about half of the schools to which I applied, I have to agree with the good counselor here. A stellar MCAT score will unfortunately not make an abysmal GPA go away. Both of your numbers have to be acceptable to the medical schools, though of course different schools will define acceptability differently.
 
We all have different experiences in this. But I have a sub 3.0 GPA and an acceptance to a top 20 school. I cannot believe some of the interviews I've gotten so far, but it seems, at least in terms of interviews if not acceptances, that a major turn around can attract positive attention if you spin it as a positive experience. I have some pretty exceptional circumstances, and I'm not going to presume what yours are, but the bottom line, as one who's going through it, is that it can be done.
 
Actually this is not true. It's not like there's any score that is going to balance out a sub 3.0 GPA. The sliding scale approach to numerical stats is largely a myth. Don't expect anything to balance anything else out. Treat everything in the app (grades, MCAT, ECs) as having to each be independently adequate for med school admission. Because most schools will. They are looking for that one reason to eliminate you from the other 10,000 applications they are getting. A low MCAT OR a low GPA OR poor LORs OR inadequate ECs OR poor essays, etc, are all enough, independently for them to give the thumbs down.

Depends on a lot of things...Some Adcoms on this board would tend to disagree with you. While it will be very, very difficult to show that you have the capability to handle medical school classes after a bad ugrad, it can be done. And, a god-like MCAT is the first way to get there. I could cite anecdotal evidence all day, but that's not really the point.

I guess what I'm saying is that it CAN be done, but the OP should realize how hard an uphill battle he's going to be fighting. Be prepared to try and score in the 99th percentile on your MCAT, and gather as many volunteer/heath care work hours that you possibly can. Also be realistic and realize that you may have to consider international medical education.

Good luck.
 
Depends on a lot of things...Some Adcoms on this board would tend to disagree with you. While it will be very, very difficult to show that you have the capability to handle medical school classes after a bad ugrad, it can be done. And, a god-like MCAT is the first way to get there. I could cite anecdotal evidence all day, but that's not really the point.

I guess what I'm saying is that it CAN be done, but the OP should realize how hard an uphill battle he's going to be fighting. Be prepared to try and score in the 99th percentile on your MCAT, and gather as many volunteer/heath care work hours that you possibly can. Also be realistic and realize that you may have to consider international medical education.

Good luck.

Well there are two different concepts here (1) showing that you have the capability, and (2) the notion that you can balance out one low numerical stat by doing higher in another. While I have no problem with the idea of folks getting advantage by demonstrating the former (the concept of SMPs is built on this notion), and I suppose the MCAT in some smaller way demonstrates improved ability to handle sciences, I would suggest that the latter (concept #2) is far overblown on this board, and in fact there is no sliding scale used in the majority of med school admissions -- ie there is not a particular MCAT score that balances out a particular GPA. It simply doesn't work that someone with, say, a 3.3 needs a 30 and someone with a 3.2 needs a 31 and someone with a 3.0 needs a 35 and so on. Such a sliding scale simply doesn't exist at many, if any, schools.

I know that LizzyM (who you are likely referencing) and others have floated a rule of thumb calculation that factors in both GPA and MCAT and that that formula is suggestive that high in one can balance out low in the other. I actually think she meant this formula for folks to gauge whether or not they are competitive, not that schools actually admit/interview based on such a calculation, and I actually think her formula falls apart in practice when the scores are at the more extreme ends of the range, rather than consistant with each other. However, this formulaic approach is, if at all, only applied at a minority of schools, and even then more for screening purposes than admissions.

Truth of the matter is schools are getting 10,000 applications. You had better believe that there are tons of folks who have done well in both grades and MCAT. And so the expectation is that to be competitive, you do well in both. A string of great grades after a bad start works for many, but odds are still best when the cumulative average reaches a competitive range. SMPs tend to admit people with cumulative 3.0s because those are the applicants they foresee being able to get in with some graduate tweaking. So I maintain that the OP should break that 3.0 line, and score competitively (30 or higher) on the MCAT (as any other applicant ought to attempt to do), and even consider an SMP. But don't expect a particular MCAT number to make a difference based on a particular GPA starting point. That is where I assert SDN is full or more myth than data.
 
Law2Doc, what if you have a 3.5cum, but a low science (with a 4.0 postbac) of 3.2 or so. You think a score around 35 balance that out a little bit and give you a shot (assuming other things were in order)?

Um no, you won't need a specific score -- see my prior post. With a 3.5 cum and a 3.2 science with a 4.0 postbac, I'd say if you broke 30 on your MCAT, or whatever is a "competitive" score these days, you would get looked at at least some places. There is no specific number needed due to a particular GPA, and no real "balancing" ever happens. Schools want to see good numbers in EACH category. So you have an adequate GPA and an adequate MCAT, you make it to the next pile. At that point, your essays, ECs and interview are what is really going to matter a whole lot more than another 4-5 points on the MCAT. Forget about the sliding scale stuff -- you score competitively and your GPA is adequate, you will get looked at. And once you get looked at, other things may matter more. The dude with adequate numbers but with awesome and interesting experiences is going to do better than someone with a slightly higher MCAT but with a more generic background much of the time.
 
L2D,

I have to disagree with your assertions to some degree. While I agree that there's not necessarily a sliding scale per se where one will definitely receive invites/acceptances etc, I think if my MCAT was 30 instead of 39, with my GPA I wouldn't be getting top 25 interviews/acceptances regardless of my background/ECs/history/LORs/PS. While 3.6/30 is probably good enough to get in somewhere, it's not a slam dunk by any means. Certainly there's not much more than anecdotal information either way, but I would argue that the 3.3 GPA non-URM applicants that you see in med school generally have MCAT scores that are significantly above average.
 
L2D,

I have to disagree with your assertions to some degree. While I agree that there's not necessarily a sliding scale per se where one will definitely receive invites/acceptances etc, I think if my MCAT was 30 instead of 39, with my GPA I wouldn't be getting top 25 interviews/acceptances regardless of my background/ECs/history/LORs/PS. While 3.6/30 is probably good enough to get in somewhere, it's not a slam dunk by any means. Certainly there's not much more than anecdotal information either way, but I would argue that the 3.3 GPA non-URM applicants that you see in med school generally have MCAT scores that are significantly above average.

Totally disagree with the last sentence -- they have a hook, but more often than not it isn't so numerically related as you suggest. (In fact the number of folks with low GPAs who "rock the MCAT" is pretty negligible, and far lower than the number of folks who get in with 3.3 range stats. That you are getting interviews from good schools probably suggests that both your GPA and MCAT are adequate for a look, at which point these other things in your record come into play.
As for "slam dunk"s -- there are none with med school. Half of all applicants won't get in anywhere. Folks with 4.0/40s will still get their share of rejections. If you look at the pre-allo board, you will read thread upon thread of "randomness" and "crapshoots". In fact, there is none of this going on. What is going on is that the numbers are only part of the story, and so thinking there is a formulaic rule of thumb is where folks go astray. Numbers matter, but you basically need to have decent ones in both categories, and then ideally top it off with something non-numerical and compelling. With the number of applications, schools can look for all around good stats, and not have to balance one versus the other.
 
L2D,

I have to disagree with your assertions to some degree. While I agree that there's not necessarily a sliding scale per se where one will definitely receive invites/acceptances etc, I think if my MCAT was 30 instead of 39, with my GPA I wouldn't be getting top 25 interviews/acceptances regardless of my background/ECs/history/LORs/PS. While 3.6/30 is probably good enough to get in somewhere, it's not a slam dunk by any means. Certainly there's not much more than anecdotal information either way, but I would argue that the 3.3 GPA non-URM applicants that you see in med school generally have MCAT scores that are significantly above average.
FWIW, I just want to chime in and say that I agree with L2D's past few posts. You are actually supporting his point, not disproving it, based upon your record as a nontraditional candidate with a very interesting background and competitive stats. You are the kind of candidate who would look really good to an adcom. However, your MCAT is not the most unique or interesting thing about your app IMHO, and I don't agree that it's what made you an attractive candidate to several schools.
 
Well there are two different concepts here (1) showing that you have the capability, and (2) the notion that you can balance out one low numerical stat by doing higher in another. While I have no problem with the idea of folks getting advantage by demonstrating the former (the concept of SMPs is built on this notion), and I suppose the MCAT in some smaller way demonstrates improved ability to handle sciences, I would suggest that the latter (concept #2) is far overblown on this board, and in fact there is no sliding scale used in the majority of med school admissions -- ie there is not a particular MCAT score that balances out a particular GPA. It simply doesn't work that someone with, say, a 3.3 needs a 30 and someone with a 3.2 needs a 31 and someone with a 3.0 needs a 35 and so on. Such a sliding scale simply doesn't exist at many, if any, schools.

I know that LizzyM (who you are likely referencing) and others have floated a rule of thumb calculation that factors in both GPA and MCAT and that that formula is suggestive that high in one can balance out low in the other. I actually think she meant this formula for folks to gauge whether or not they are competitive, not that schools actually admit/interview based on such a calculation, and I actually think her formula falls apart in practice when the scores are at the more extreme ends of the range, rather than consistant with each other. However, this formulaic approach is, if at all, only applied at a minority of schools, and even then more for screening purposes than admissions.

Truth of the matter is schools are getting 10,000 applications. You had better believe that there are tons of folks who have done well in both grades and MCAT. And so the expectation is that to be competitive, you do well in both. A string of great grades after a bad start works for many, but odds are still best when the cumulative average reaches a competitive range. SMPs tend to admit people with cumulative 3.0s because those are the applicants they foresee being able to get in with some graduate tweaking. So I maintain that the OP should break that 3.0 line, and score competitively (30 or higher) on the MCAT (as any other applicant ought to attempt to do), and even consider an SMP. But don't expect a particular MCAT number to make a difference based on a particular GPA starting point. That is where I assert SDN is full or more myth than data.

I do not disagree that the 'sliding scale' is a myth. I don't really believe it exists either. But what I am disagreeing with is the assertion that he would not have much of a chance even with a god-like MCAT. He would. You can check the anecdotal evidence on mdapps, or where ever else. Fact of the matter is, with a godlike MCAT (39+ is what I consider extremely exceptional, 99th pecentile) you are in a very small cohort of applicants, and those students tend to get an interview and acceptance 1/3 years somewhere in america. It is doubtful that there are many students at all that scored 39+ and have been denied an interview three years in a row. (Notice I said 'interview' and not acceptance, because if you are offered an interview, then the game really is much more than just numbers.)

Let's look at it this way.

In 2007, 610 students who took the MCAT out of 62787 were awarded a 39 or higher. If we assume the MCAT is valid for three years, and take into account that most people who score that high get into medical school within two years, then there are probably about 1200 students currently applying with a 39+ MCAT.
1200 students is a small cohort of students, and a large estimate. It's probably much smaller than the cohort of students that have high GPAs (3.85 or higher). In my university, McGill, there are 3,000 students in science, and the top 3% of the graduating class had a 3.85 or higher. So thats 90 students, not even counting students in other disciplines. Of these 90 science students 30 said they were 'pre-med'. The number of universities in the US is quite high (2,618), so already you can see that the number is probably higher than those with high MCAT scores.

Again, I'm not arguing the central thesis of your post: There is no sliding scale. I agree with this point. I further agree that even with a very high MCAT, you are going to have to prove that you can handle the workload. Then again, I haven't seen an applicant who got a 38 or higher on the MCAT not get into medical school 1 out of the 3 years they applied. They may not go to the best schools, but they have gotten in. The admissions committees will consider your entire application, and they will look at your GPA and your MCAT. But the assertion that if one is not acceptable, but the other stellar, then you probably wont be considered is just not true. I've called many universities about the polarity of my application, and most if not all told me that even with my low GPA, because of my high MCAT I will be very seriously considered, and my transcript will be carefully looked at.

So I'm not sure that we are disagreeing as much as it seems. I do think that the OP should be aware of how hard he may have to fight to get into medical school, and I also agree that he should do everything in his power to raise his GPA to 3.0. (<- In fact, I think this is probably the most important thing he can do at this point to improve his application.) Also he should be willing, and expect to do an SMP, get a ridiculously high MCAT, or even pursue another undergraduate degree.

I think that we could probably meet somewhere in the middle on this issue. It's true that you can't necessarily 'compensate' for a low GPA, but the higher your MCAT, the more seriously the admissions committee will look at your application in spite of a non-stellar GPA.
 
Totally disagree with the last sentence -- they have a hook, but more often than not it isn't so numerically related as you suggest. (In fact the number of folks with low GPAs who "rock the MCAT" is pretty negligible, and far lower than the number of folks who get in with 3.3 range stats. That you are getting interviews from good schools probably suggests that both your GPA and MCAT are adequate for a look, at which point these other things in your record come into play.

I think we're talking about slightly different things. I'm not talking about candidates with GPAs less than 3.0, but candidiates with GPAs in the 3.0-3.5 range, which is below average for med schools but not low enough that they'd get screened. I know it's possible to get in with a 3.2/31 or thereabouts. I have a cousin who got into a MD school with those exact stats in two cycles. It's my contention that if she'd gotten a 40 on the MCAT instead of a 31, she'd have interest from schools beyond the relatively low ranked state school she currently attends, and more than one interview in two cycles that resulted in getting in off the waitlist.

As for "slam dunk"s -- there are none with med school. Half of all applicants won't get in anywhere. Folks with 4.0/40s will still get their share of rejections. If you look at the pre-allo board, you will read thread upon thread of "randomness" and "crapshoots". In fact, there is none of this going on. What is going on is that the numbers are only part of the story, and so thinking there is a formulaic rule of thumb is where folks go astray. Numbers matter, but you basically need to have decent ones in both categories, and then ideally top it off with something non-numerical and compelling. With the number of applications, schools can look for all around good stats, and not have to balance one versus the other.

While this is true, and stats alone won't necessarily get you in top programs etc... it seems clear that if you took 10 3.8/30 candidates and 10 3.8/40 candidates and compared their interviews and acceptances, the second group would be better qualitatively. If we extend this to a lower GPA candidate and compared 10 3.2/30 and 10 3.2/40 candidates, I think you'd see the same result.

This, however, is not really what we're arguing, per se. I don't think anyone denies that candidates with higher stats will likely have better chances, all else being equal. I agree with your basic point, that there isn't a sliding scale per se where you can overcome a poor GPA with a stellar MCAT or vice versa and that ultimately each score has to be at least palatable to a med school, meaning 2.8/45 is not the same as 3.8/35, using the LizzyM scale.

That said, I think in order for a lower GPA candidiate (meaning acceptable range, but lower than mean) to do as well as a candidiate with more average scores in both categories, they need to have a somewhat higher than average MCAT.
 
FWIW, I just want to chime in and say that I agree with L2D's past few posts. You are actually supporting his point, not disproving it, based upon your record as a nontraditional candidate with a very interesting background and competitive stats. You are the kind of candidate who would look really good to an adcom. However, your MCAT is not the most unique or interesting thing about your app IMHO, and I don't agree that it's what made you an attractive candidate to several schools.

I agree with everything you've said. I don't think people are looking at my application and saying, "Let's interview this guy because he has a good MCAT." Clearly my professional career and ECs differentiate me from other candidiates. I'm simply stating that if I'd gotten a 30 on the MCAT I wouldn't have as much interest from higher end schools.
 
Ultimately, I'm not really sure that any of the recent posters disagree that much with the central arguments, namely, that GPA and MCAT both matter and both have to acceptable in order to gain acceptance.

I think the question is whether relative competitiveness is changed with scores with all else held equal, my contention is that if all else is equal, a good MCAT score will make a candidate that is otherwise borderline more viable, which other posters may or may not agree with.

I do not disagree that the 'sliding scale' is a myth. I don't really believe it exists either. But what I am disagreeing with is the assertion that he would not have much of a chance even with a god-like MCAT. He would. You can check the anecdotal evidence on mdapps, or where ever else. Fact of the matter is, with a godlike MCAT (39+ is what I consider extremely exceptional, 99th pecentile) you are in a very small cohort of applicants, and those students tend to get an interview and acceptance 1/3 years somewhere in america. It is doubtful that there are many students at all that scored 39+ and have been denied an interview three years in a row. (Notice I said 'interview' and not acceptance, because if you are offered an interview, then the game really is much more than just numbers.)

Let's look at it this way.

In 2007, 610 students who took the MCAT out of 62787 were awarded a 39 or higher. If we assume the MCAT is valid for three years, and take into account that most people who score that high get into medical school within two years, then there are probably about 1200 students currently applying with a 39+ MCAT.
1200 students is a small cohort of students, and a large estimate. It's probably much smaller than the cohort of students that have high GPAs (3.85 or higher). In my university, McGill, there are 3,000 students in science, and the top 3% of the graduating class had a 3.85 or higher. So thats 90 students, not even counting students in other disciplines. Of these 90 science students 30 said they were 'pre-med'. The number of universities in the US is quite high (2,618), so already you can see that the number is probably higher than those with high MCAT scores.

Again, I'm not arguing the central thesis of your post: There is no sliding scale. I agree, there is no sliding scale. I further agree that even with a very high MCAT, you are going to have to prove that you can handle the workload. Then again, I haven't seen an applicant who got a 38 or higher on the MCAT not get into medical school 1 out of the 3 years they applied. They may not go to the best schools, but they have gotten in. The admissions committees will consider your entire application, and they will look at your GPA and your MCAT. But the assertion that if one is not acceptable, but the other stellar, then you probably wont be considered is just not true. I've called many universities about the polarity of my application, and most if not all told me that even with my low GPA, because of my high MCAT I will be very seriously considered, and my transcript will be carefully looked at.

So I'm not sure that we are disagreeing as much as it seems. I do think that the OP should be aware of how hard he may have to fight to get into medical school, and I also agree that he should do everything in his power to raise his GPA to 3.0. (<- In fact, I think this is probably the most important thing he can do at this point to improve his application.) Also he should be willing, and expect to do an SMP, get a ridiculously high MCAT, or even pursue another undergraduate degree, or an SMP program.

I think that we could probably meet somewhere in the middle on this issue. It's true that you can't necessarily 'compensate' for a low GPA, but the higher your MCAT, the more seriously the admissions committee will look at your application in spite of a non-stellar GPA.
 
Ultimately, I'm not really sure that any of the recent posters disagree that much with the central arguments, namely, that GPA and MCAT both matter and both have to acceptable in order to gain acceptance.

I think the question is whether relative competitiveness is changed with scores with all else held equal, my contention is that if all else is equal, a good MCAT score will make a candidate that is otherwise borderline more viable, which other posters may or may not agree with.

Yes, I agree. It is because of the fact that high MCAT students tend to be considered more seriously that there is the perception that a 'high MCAT can make up for a low GPA'. I mean, it can...as long as the rest of your application is great, and most importantly, you've shown in some way that you can handle the workload: SMP program, post-bac, upward trend in ugrad GPA, etc...
But there is a certain point where it won't matter...where that point is, I'm not sure. There have, however, been a quite a few people to be accepted to MD schools and DO schools with sub-3.0 GPAs and high MCATs.
 
This is where I think we disagree. There is no one to one relationship where the higher the MCAT the more forgiving schools will be for a low GPA. You are expected to be decent in both.

But that's not what I'm saying at all. I don't believe there is a 'one-to-one' relationship. I am just saying that having a low GPA and a high MCAT will get you consideration. In that respect, a high MCAT 'can' help to make up for a low GPA. But, there are various factors: why you got a low GPA, what you were doing during that time, how you have improved, etc... those factors will play into whether you get an interview.

The high MCAT is like a white flag to the adcoms. They see that '40' and they think, 'huh? He got a 40, but his GPA is XXX. Let's see why...' The MCAT gets you in the door, but it'll by no means carry you through to an acceptance.

EDIT: As an example, let's take the LizzyM scale for my situation:
For me: ((40/10)MCAT + 3.3)/2 = 3.65
So by her scale a student with a 36MCAT and a 3.7 GPA would be considered 'the same' as me in terms of competitiveness in the eyes of the adcoms. I don't really believe that is true at all. I'm fairly certain that an adcom would look much more favorably upon the person with a 36 and 3.7, than my application which has a 40 and 3.3. But...as I've said, I do think that my 40 will get me serious consideration.
 
I don't really believe that is true at all. I'm fairly certain that an adcom would look much more favorably upon the person with a 36 and 3.7, than my application which has a 40 and 3.3.

I agree with the above statement. The formulaic approach is fine for a thumbnail estimate of competitiveness, but not how schools actually make decisions. A 3.3 is borderline adequate. With a competitive MCAT you are meeting the adequacy test in both categories and so are getting looked at. I still assert less balancing is going on.
 
I have enjoyed the progress of this thread, and wonder if a refinement may shed some light.

I pose that everyone who does a reasonable sliding scale calculation will get the ADCOMs to eye the application. But how has that translated to non-trad success. I also pose that non-trads may shine differently on paper (if by virtue of the life experience would have many more EC lines). However, as we all know, interviews are a different matter (being hammered about our age).

I would like to know if the non-trads have noted a sliding scale from their interviews. Were you allowed to discuss old(er) grades, were you able to shine irrespective of any (perceived) AMCAS imbalance.

Additionally, for those fortunate to be accepted, is there any semblance of a post-interview "sliding scale?" I.e. you can liken your acceptance to your unique character (which non-trads should epitomize) rather than any sense of filling in numeric blanks.

Thanks!
 
Each person is going to look at your older grades differently. In my case, they wanted to know what the deal was early on, but didn't seem too concerned with it, given my improvement.
 
I would like to know if the non-trads have noted a sliding scale from their interviews. Were you allowed to discuss old(er) grades, were you able to shine irrespective of any (perceived) AMCAS imbalance.

In five interviews I haven't had a single question about my undergraduate grades...

Additionally, for those fortunate to be accepted, is there any semblance of a post-interview "sliding scale?" I.e. you can liken your acceptance to your unique character (which non-trads should epitomize) rather than any sense of filling in numeric blanks.

That really depends on the school, I guess.
 
Most of the better SMP programs require a 3.0, precisely because you still need an adequate undergrad GPA for the SMP to give you that extra push.

Not just wrong, but completely wrong. The only hard and fast grade requirements for an SMP are Loyola (3.0) and EVMS (2.75). A lot of other programs 'recommend' a 3.0 GPA. If you have a high enough MCAT, you can ignore that recommendation

I got into GA-PCOM with a 2.68 and 33P on the MCAT. Like you, this is with a strong upward trend (80+ hours of hard science coursework). I just started in a deeper hole than you.
I've also had MD interviews

Listen, I'm glad things worked out for you, but you're statistically bizarre. I don't know what your situation was, or how strong your upward trend was, but I do know only handful of people get in to MD schools, or DO schools, with a sub-3.0 GPA and no SMP. The fact that you did it does not make it a likely outcome for the OP.
 
Not just wrong, but completely wrong. The only hard and fast grade requirements for an SMP are Loyola (3.0) and EVMS (2.75). A lot of other programs 'recommend' a 3.0 GPA. If you have a high enough MCAT, you can ignore that recommendation

Respectfully disagree. I think you are underestimating how important those programs regard the 3.0 whether they require it or merely recommend it. I know of at least a couple of "recommended" 3.0 schools where it probably ought to be called a hard and fast rule because pretty much nobody gets in below that mark. In most cases they keep their options open to consider the very unusual applicant with the decade of important biomedical research/publications and the 2.99, or the kid with a 2.9 who is the daughter of the dean of a med school, (i.e. someone with a compelling non-numerical "hook") not the dude with an above average MCAT. And no, they don't really use a sliding scale either. These schools only survive if their students actually get into med school. So they set minimums that best allow them to accomplish this function. In most cases this means a 3.0 and a competitive MCAT.
 
Also about half of MD SMPs (Rosalind Franklin, EVMS, Tulane, and I think Tufts) accepts a large chunk of the people who complete their SMP into their medical school based solely on their performance in the SMP, regardless of their U-grad GPA. If you can get into one of those programs your U-grad GPA is irrelevant, you get a clean slate.

Does Tufts even have an SMP? I thought they have a formal post-bac, where if you get a certain GPA, you get an auto-interview (not an auto-admission).

At any rate, congrats on your personal SMP success, but I still suspect you are going to be the exception in your SMP class, not the norm. Good luck and congrats again.
 
Does Tufts even have an SMP? I thought they have a formal post-bac, where if you get a certain GPA, you get an auto-interview (not an auto-admission).

Tufts recently started a SMP, for either 2007 or 2008 entrance, I don't remember which.

At any rate, congrats on your personal SMP success, but I still suspect you are going to be the exception in your SMP class, not the norm. Good luck and congrats again.

I think it's just going to depend, but I do know that at Georgetown there are significant amounts of people who have < 3.0 GPAs (dozens).
 
What would be considered competitive for a DO program? I've heard stats of 3.0gpa/30MCAT. Being that I have retaken some classes, my gpa for a DO program would be somewhat higher than 3.0...maybe 3.2. If I need to, I'll go the international medicine route. I know a number of physicians who've gone that way and are successful doctors today.
 
Hello! I've really enjoyed reading the forums, and I thought I'd jump in with a quick comment regarding MCAT versus GPA. 🙂

FWIW, the US News and World Report rankings of research medical schools use a weighting of 0.13 for the mean composite MCAT score (on a 15-point scale), and 0.06 for the mean undergraduate GPA.

Of course, the above comment is not meant to imply that adcoms would use the same methodology.

Best of luck to everyone!
 
Hello! I've really enjoyed reading the forums, and I thought I'd jump in with a quick comment regarding MCAT versus GPA. 🙂

FWIW, the US News and World Report rankings of research medical schools use a weighting of 0.13 for the mean composite MCAT score (on a 15-point scale), and 0.06 for the mean undergraduate GPA.

Of course, the above comment is not meant to imply that adcoms would use the same methodology.

Best of luck to everyone!

Ok-I admit to breifly looking at the U.S. News and World reports rankings. I guess I assumed that their rankings were based in much the same way that they rank undergraduate schools-which (according to legend) is that they send a questionaire to the various provosts of all schools and ask who they think is best. Suffice it to say that probably every school in the country gets one #1 vote (their own) and then it becomes a status symbol game. Hence, based on inertia alone-many of the established M.D. programs get high rankings (and probably deservedly so based on the endowments, equipment, etc.)

So-this weighting number came as a surprise to me. Optimist-do you have numbers for the other weightings (I recall from a 60 Minutes report a couple of years ago that said URMs got a huge weighting at the University of Michigan which resulted in a backlash.)

TIA
 
The most important factors in USNWR rankings, are total NIH funding and NIH funding per investigator, IIRC.
 
This thread has been interesting.

My personal experience: most med students with high MCAT scores have high GPAs. I know some med students with lower MCAT scores, but they tended to have low GPAs as well.

The low GPA folks tend to get acceptances not based on a high MCAT but a compelling package. Adcoms see something they like. A high MCAT with a low GPA isn't going to save you if you don't have a good looking application. There are just too many folks out there with solid MCAT scores and solid GPAs. And the idea that med schools are just dying to get in as many MCAT 40+ers as they can is myth; once your MCAT score is high enough that they're confident you'll succeed in med school, and they won't quibble for a few extra points.
 
First, for the record, the way to calculate the LizzyM score is gpa(10)+MCAT. Compare your score to the score calculated for a given med school using the school's self-reported average gpa and avg MCAT.

Second, a low gpa + high MCAT is going to be interesting enough to draw an adcom member to take a closer look at your entire college transcript. There are a million ways to get to 3.3 and the adcom will wonder if this is a person with 1) no grade lower than B and most grades B+ with a few A- or A grades, 2) a poor start with a strong upward trend 3) a poor semester in the middle due to the death of a parent or other catastrophic event, 4) a sprinkling of "bad grades" throughout the transcript with counterbalancing good grades (often in soft subjects such as orchestra or chorus for all 4 years).

A good MCAT with poor gpa can show someone with potential who just doesn't work hard on a day to day basis or it can be something else. The adcom's job is to sort it out and then to make a call based on academics as well as essays, LORs, and experiences.
 
First, for the record, the way to calculate the LizzyM score is gpa(10)+MCAT. Compare your score to the score calculated for a given med school using the school's self-reported average gpa and avg MCAT.

Second, a low gpa + high MCAT is going to be interesting enough to draw an adcom member to take a closer look at your entire college transcript. There are a million ways to get to 3.3 and the adcom will wonder if this is a person with 1) no grade lower than B and most grades B+ with a few A- or A grades, 2) a poor start with a strong upward trend 3) a poor semester in the middle due to the death of a parent or other catastrophic event, 4) a sprinkling of "bad grades" throughout the transcript with counterbalancing good grades (often in soft subjects such as orchestra or chorus for all 4 years).

A good MCAT with poor gpa can show someone with potential who just doesn't work hard on a day to day basis or it can be something else. The adcom's job is to sort it out and then to make a call based on academics as well as essays, LORs, and experiences.

If I have a 2.5 (including an F, a couple of Ws (an F and 2 Ws all in the same class actually, and bunch of Cs etc) in the first two years, and 3.85 in the last two with nothing lower than a B+, coming up with a cumulative 3.43, will that work in my favor more than if I had a sprinkling of bad grades?
 
If I have a 2.5 (including an F, a couple of Ws (an F and 2 Ws all in the same class actually, and bunch of Cs etc) in the first two years, and 3.85 in the last two with nothing lower than a B+, coming up with a cumulative 3.43, will that work in my favor more than if I had a sprinkling of bad grades?

Obviously, there's a story there and a good adcom remember is going to look for it in your LORs or essays. What was happening in those first yrs or what happened to turn you around? How did you do in the pre-reqs? Taking the application "holistically" is important and that's what a good adcom member tries to do.
 
I took a couple pre-reqs as part of my undergrad requirement and did badly, but took them again, and I am doing a post-bac to complete all my pre-reqs....and have a 4.0 in them so far.
 
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