How important are Ec's?

[hnbui]

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How important are ec's?

Would being in clubs be important to colleges?
How does being in clubs compare to doing clinical work?
Also, would it look bad if i did research and clinical work during the summer, because i'm planning to take alot of courses during the academic part of the year.

 

[dhoonlee]

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[stoic]

VERY IMPORTANT

Think about it this way:

Pretty much everyone who applies to medical school school is smart and has had some measure of academic success. Once you get rid of the super stars and those who probably shouldn't have applied, you're left with a ton of people who's GPA are 3.4 to 3.6 w/MCATs from 28 to 32. How do you decide between applicants like this who are basically the same in terms of academic qualifications? Extra curriculars, that's how.

Clinical is generally better than being involved with clubs. Clubs are still good though, and not just for building applications! Go out and do stuff that interest you and that you enjoy. I believe very strongly that an undergraduate education is about a lot more than spending every waking hour studying.

As for doing stuff in the summer, sure, that's fine. But it looks even better if you show the admissions committees you can handle tough courses and extracurriculars.

Good luck,
S

 

[hnbui]

thanks for the reply. I'm just worried that i will not be able to keep up with my classes if i do ec's. But i guess i'll just have to find a way.

 

[sunflower79]

thanks for the reply. I'm just worried that i will not be able to keep up with my classes if i do ec's. But i guess i'll just have to find a way.

During the semester, you should be able to do well in your courses AND do one or two ECs that you enjoy. That's part of the test itself, that you can multi-task, IMHO. Anyway, it's not that difficult to do, just make sure you don't overextend yourself (i.e. learn to say no!)

good luck 🙂
~sunflower

 

[Og kingofBashan]

I had a conversation today with a 4th year California med student, and he barely even did any clinical volunteering - just like 2 or 3 months of it. But he said he did lots of research. I guess it really depends on you and your situation. If you have amazing grades and awesome test scores, maybe you don't need as much EC's?? is this right? some one correct me

 

[WatchingWaiting]

I had a conversation today with a 4th year California med student, and he barely even did any clinical volunteering - just like 2 or 3 months of it. But he said he did lots of research. I guess it really depends on you and your situation. If you have amazing grades and awesome test scores, maybe you don't need as much EC's?? is this right? some one correct me

First and foremost, admissions is a numbers game. If your MCAT and GPA are not in line with the 25th-75th percentile range of the particular school to which you are applying, your extracurriculars and personal statement will be irrelevant and likely not even looked at. So, numbers are in fact the most important thing.

However, as mentioned in other posts, once you have sufficient numbers, the intangibles play a very important and substantial role in determining who gets the interview and the ultimate acceptance. It's not that you "have" to volunteer, or "have" to do research. It's that you have to demonstrate a committment to and understanding of the rigors of medicine and that you have to come off as likely to make a good physician. In general, the question of, "Why medicine?" can only be answered by demonstrating a reasonable amount of exposure to clinical medicine through shadowing, interpreting, participating in a free clinic, or some other medically relevant activity in a meaningful way for a sustained period of time. Thus, it is fair to say that you have to have some form of clinical exposure.

In terms of extracurriculars, it really doesn't matter whether you are doing research, doing community service, doing a varsity sport, or what, so long as you demonstrate some type of sustained, in-depth non-academic activity that shows evidence of compassion, likely to be a physician scientist, good interpersonal skills, or some combination of the above.

 

[Og kingofBashan]

good post!!

 

[mikedc813]

I definitely agree with these responses. Med schools don't just want a nerdy guy who cooped himself up in his tiny dorm room with his books and computer for 4 years, even if he manages to get a 3.8gpa/35mcat. Let's be realistic here - if you were on the adcom would you choose someone like that or....someone who manages to get a respectable 3.6/30mcat but has incredible ECs, whether it be doing some sort of serious research or community service?

The best advice you'll find regarding ECs, and this is posted all over these pre-allopathic threads, is find something you REALLY ENJOY doing and do it well. If it's research then get a publication or two if you can. If it's volunteering then show some real initiative in doing that (I directed an ESL mentoring program for middle school kids for 4 years). So choose one, maybe two, things and do them very well. That's more noticeable than having 5 ECs but only being lightly involved in each.

 

[courtyard]

EC's are very important for two reasons.
First, some schools will actually assign number scores based on your gpa, mcat, lor, and ec. I dont know how they can attribute numerical score to something as subjective as EC, but somehow ADCOM's got to select people.

Second, I can't imagine how interviews would have been if I didn't have my EC's to base my answers from.

I would say clinical experiences is far more important than club activities. In fact I have never been in any school clubs, high school or college. But what's more important than just trying to accumulate total clinical experience hours is doing something unique and memorable activities in clinical settings that will set you apart. Interviewers really like to talk about these.

Good luck.

CY.

 

[mikedc813]

But what's more important than just trying to accumulate total clinical experience hours is doing something unique and memorable activities in clinical settings that will set you apart. Interviewers really like to talk about these.

I am going to agree with this. You can have lots of experiences in clubs to discuss in your interviews too. I surely did and I'm willing to bet that those experiences is what helped my interviews go well and eventually get me into med school. If I had no personal experiences I'm 100% positive my interviewed would have sucked simply because they would have been soooo boring and generic for the interview to listen to.

 

[superdevil]

Med schools don't just want a nerdy guy who cooped himself up in his tiny dorm room with his books and computer for 4 years, even if he manages to get a 3.8gpa/35mcat.

i'm sorry, but this is a myth. most state schools will accept their own residents with kick-ass numbers without a second thought. they *want* you to go to their school, coop yourself up in your room with your books, get a 250 on Step I, land a neuro surg residency, and make them look good. period.

also, like people have said, EC's are usually just tie-breakers among various levels of applicants. if you are a 3.45, 28-P student, you'd better have good EC's to separate you from the pack--because that "pack" is HUGE. if you are a 3.95, 41-T student, you have less competition on your "level" (well, at least in terms of population size), so EC's aren't as *crucial*--though they should NOT be neglected, regardless of your numbers.

 

[velo]

In general, the question of, "Why medicine?" can only be answered by demonstrating a reasonable amount of exposure to clinical medicine through shadowing, interpreting, participating in a free clinic, or some other medically relevant activity in a meaningful way for a sustained period of time. Thus, it is fair to say that you have to have some form of clinical exposure.

In general this was a great post, but I'm not sure I agree with this statement. I spent a few days in high school shadowing a friend of the family doing his residency, and then just talked to some other MDs and that was enough for me to decide on medicine...thus ended my clinical exposure. When I applied I had high numbers, lots of research, and no real volunteering/clinical exposure. The doc interviewing me at my future med school asked me if i ever shadowed because "some people on adcom make a 'thing' about it" I told him I did a bit in HS and he said that was fine, he just wanted something to tell the rest of the committee...then he told me clinical exposure is overrated, the only thing it really tells you is whether or not you'll faint at the sight of blood.

Now, I'm not saying that volunteering can't be a very rewarding experience...I tried to volunteer over summers in college but the local hospital told me they "weren't taking volunteers" at the time (don't want my free help?!) And yes my school is somewhat research oriented, so that might have contributed to the adcom's point of view. I'm just saying, maybe we overestimate the importance of "sustained clinical exposure." It is certainly not the only way to answer the question of "why medicine" my 2 cent...

 

[mikedc813]

i'm sorry, but this is a myth. most state schools will accept their own residents with kick-ass numbers without a second thought. they *want* you to go to their school, coop yourself up in your room with your books, get a 250 on Step I, land a neuro surg residency, and make them look good. period.

I'm wondering why state schools would primarily do this. All med schools require students to coop themselves up for hours while studying. Why would state schools be any different? I'm sure they all want their students to get a 250 and land a neuro surg residency.

And when I made that previous post I obviously was referring to the vast majority of schools. Ok fine, I'll admit there is probably a small fraction of state schools that will accept nerdy loner isolated types with great grades. But honestly what percentage of all med schools will accept people like that??? 😕

If you want to give yourself the best shot at getting in people, get yourself out there and into some great ECs you really enjoy. You can't lose - you get to enjoy something you love doing and it will help you get into med school.

 

[mikedc813]

In general this was a great post, but I'm not sure I agree with this statement. I spent a few days in high school shadowing a friend of the family doing his residency, and then just talked to some other MDs and that was enough for me to decide on medicine...thus ended my clinical exposure. When I applied I had high numbers, lots of research, and no real volunteering/clinical exposure. The doc interviewing me at my future med school asked me if i ever shadowed because "some people on adcom make a 'thing' about it" I told him I did a bit in HS and he said that was fine, he just wanted something to tell the rest of the committee...then he told me clinical exposure is overrated, the only thing it really tells you is whether or not you'll faint at the sight of blood.

Now, I'm not saying that volunteering can't be a very rewarding experience...I tried to volunteer over summers in college but the local hospital told me they "weren't taking volunteers" at the time (don't want my free help?!) And yes my school is somewhat research oriented, so that might have contributed to the adcom's point of view. I'm just saying, maybe we overestimate the importance of "sustained clinical exposure." It is certainly not the only way to answer the question of "why medicine" my 2 cent...

I am going to STRONGLY disagree with your first point. Shadowing is not just to see if you won't faint from seeing blood. I mean come on are you serious? 🙁 If you actually shadow a doc for an extended period of time you'll quickly shed the initial notion that you had of what doctoring is really like and you'll see all of the frustrating, aggravating, and annoying aspects of being a practicing physician. So in that sense it's important to shadow at least a little bit. My interviewers made shadowing seem very important as well.

Medicine is demanding. They don't want to admit people who don't know what they're getting into, just so they will drop out later.

 

[superdevil]

I'm wondering why state schools would primarily do this. All med schools require students to coop themselves up for hours while studying. Why would state schools be any different? I'm sure they all want their students to get a 250 and land a neuro surg residency.

its quite simple, actually. some states just have less "superstar" applicants (as far as numbers go). that gives them an increased incentive to accept their superstars---to keep their statistical averages from being too low. in this wonderful world of academia, there are a lot of chest-pounding pissing contests among schools. if you haven't seen the petty nature of academia, i am quite jealous of you.

also, for the record, your portrayal of "nerdy loner isolated types" is a hilarious stereotype. this (someone with GREAT numbers and ZERO personality) happens less than people imagine; it just makes us more comfortable to think of over-achievers as such.

as far as what percentage of state schools accept these nerdy/high #'s types, i certainly can't quantify it without being totally arbitrary, but i've seen it in my state, anyway.

 

[Medikit]

As I've been learning from reading this board, any area in which you are weak is your important area. You get a 7 in BS but 12s in PS and V, suddenly BS is very important. You have a 3.2, suddenly your GPA is a very significant part of your application. You have few Ec's, then Ec's become a very important selection factor of your application.

 

[velo]

I am going to STRONGLY disagree with your first point. Shadowing is not just to see if you won't faint from seeing blood. I mean come on are you serious? 🙁 If you actually shadow a doc for an extended period of time you'll quickly shed the initial notion that you had of what doctoring is really like and you'll see all of the frustrating, aggravating, and annoying aspects of being a practicing physician. So in that sense it's important to shadow at least a little bit. My interviewers made shadowing seem very important as well.

Medicine is demanding. They don't want to admit people who don't know what they're getting into, just so they will drop out later.

ok, its great that you STRONGLY disagree with my first point, but I don't think you read my post very carefully. The statement about shadowing being about "not fainting when you see blood" wasn't my first point, in fact it wasn't one of my points at all...it was something a doctor deciding if I should go to med school said to me, and out of the three of us he's the only one who sits on an adcom. I'm not even sure if i agree with him...i don't think I could have made the decision to pursue medicine without doing some shadowing. However, the point I was making is that clincal experience (like shadowing) might not be as important to adcoms as we think it is (that's what this threads about, "how important are ECs"). When you shadow or volunteer, you follow doctors around, observe them, and do a bunch of busy work. How does this indicate that you're going to be a good doctor?!?! I think that's the way some adcoms see it, and I included his comment to illustrate that.

 

[superdevil]

just realized i made a mistake typing...

i said "most state schools will accept their own residents with kick-ass numbers without a second thought." honestly, i was sub-consciously thinking of my state (OH) the whole time i was typing that. i didn't mean to imply that "most med schools in america" do this. my hands and brain aren't always on the same page. 👎

oh well, carry on.

 

[Premedtomed]

thanks for the reply. I'm just worried that i will not be able to keep up with my classes if i do ec's. But i guess i'll just have to find a way.

Hey don't get involved into a lot of ECs if your grades will be affected. Just do whatever you can and bascially show that you do get out of the house after 6.00 pm. 😉

 

[TTSD]

EXTRAORDINARILY important!

If it was all about numbers, then those humanities majors would really kick the living $hit out of the science majors in acceptance rates. EC's help offset some of those less-than spectacular aspects of your application and help show your dedicated drive towards medicine.

Not only that, but it helps introduce you to the field. A lot of people have a sort of glamourized fantasy of what medicine is.. working in a hospital, doing research, shadowing, etc helps strip away that fantasy. Nothing works best than to pull 48hour+ shifts with your eyes against the microscope and you cry at the end of the shift because your eyes hurt so much.

Nothing works best than standing in on surgeries for 10+ straight hours with only having managed to score a plate of rice, then going on rounds, heading to Cocos across the street, slamming a beer and trying to drive home.

And when you strip away all the glamour, put in tons of hours of work, and STILL want to be a doctor with all your heart. Buddy, it's there for the taking.

 

[monopolova]

Although many advise for quality over quantity, which I believe is extremely valid, I still tried to diversify my portfolio. I mean that I tried to get a little bit of everything, but I made sure I concentrated on what interested me the most. For me it was a solid clinical experience. Still, I did some research (emphasis on some) and I also did the standard med org/service org stuff.

The key is to SHOW YOUR GENUINE INTERESTS. Extracurricular should not be a journey of forced experiences. Do what interests you!! 👍

 

[mikedc813]

When you shadow or volunteer, you follow doctors around, observe them, and do a bunch of busy work. How does this indicate that you're going to be a good doctor?!?! I think that's the way some adcoms see it, and I included his comment to illustrate that.

I never claimed that doing so would indicate how good of a doctor you are. 🙄 Obviously there are people who are in med school now who faint at the sight of blood and who still get sick in gross lab. My point is that I think that shadowing and/or working within a medical environment in really key in helped unknowledgable premeds get a clearer picture of what medicine really is. Watching ER on NBC ain't gonna cut it, obviously. Hearing your family doctor talk about medicine ain't gonna cut it either. After I spent a good amount of time around doctors in their place of work I gained a different perspective for what they do. It's like saying, would you choose a surgery residency aftering seeing just a couple of surgeries without going through a surgery rotation in med school and seeing what it's really like? Perhaps some of my examples are extremely, but you get the main idea. No, shadowing does show adcoms how good of a med student you'll be. Shadowing shows them that you have done your homework and are up to speed with the reality of things.

 

[velo]

I never claimed that doing so would indicate how good of a doctor you are. 🙄 Obviously there are people who are in med school now who faint at the sight of blood and who still get sick in gross lab. My point is that I think that shadowing and/or working within a medical environment in really key in helped unknowledgable premeds get a clearer picture of what medicine really is. Watching ER on NBC ain't gonna cut it, obviously. Hearing your family doctor talk about medicine ain't gonna cut it either. After I spent a good amount of time around doctors in their place of work I gained a different perspective for what they do. It's like saying, would you choose a surgery residency aftering seeing just a couple of surgeries without going through a surgery rotation in med school and seeing what it's really like? Perhaps some of my examples are extremely, but you get the main idea. No, shadowing does show adcoms how good of a med student you'll be. Shadowing shows them that you have done your homework and are up to speed with the reality of things.

Ok, yes I know that's all well and good but I still think you're missing my point. I guess boiled down, what I'm trying to say is that clinical experience/shadowing might be one of those things that is more for our benifit, and not necessarily something that impresses adcoms (as the quote from my interviewer indicates)