How important are required clerkship grades?

[getunconcsious]

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Hi all,
Just a quick question about the match in pathology. Everyone is always going around saying how MS3 clerkship grades are the most important thing for applying to residency. Is this also true for pathology? Or do clerkship grades carry less weight due to the fact that H&P and SOAP writing isn't really a big part of pathology? I made an Honors in my Path class last year, so will that help me out? I don't know my Step 1 scores yet but based on practice exams I think I can confidently say that I will break 235.

The reason I ask is because I am 3 weeks into my first rotation (OB/Gyn) and I really don't think there is any way for me to honor it, and even high pass would probably be a stretch. I'm very easy to get along with and all my residents like me, but I'm not at all aggressive by nature so never get any deliveries, sometimes can't anticipate what I'm supposed to do, etc. So I think I'm considered friendly and nice, but useless which I'm guessing = pass.

Thanks for any advice!

 

[yaah]

Clerkship grades are part of the entire picture - as I have said before, anything in isolation is less significant than the overall picture. If your board scores and reference letters are stellar, getting just a pass in required clerkships is unlikely to matter much.

I was the same way in OB. I avoided deliveries, actually. But I gave all my evaluation forms to the Gyn-Onc team so I got around that. 😉

 

[mlw03]

have faith - i went into MS3 thinking the same thing. "i don't like this clinical stuff that much, so i'll just hope for a year of B's" - well, MS3 is about some of the same things that served you well in MS1 and 2 - study hard, learn the material for that shelf exam, and try to be useful. useful earns you a lot of points i think, and useful doesn't mean suck-up. useful means simply doing exactly what you're told, and doing it without bugging your residents, and if something doesn't seem right, letting a resident know (hemoglobin is 4 - that's something the resident might want to know 😱). point is, if you did well your first two years, don't think you won't do well this year.

The reason I ask is because I am 3 weeks into my first rotation (OB/Gyn) and I really don't think there is any way for me to honor it, and even high pass would probably be a stretch. I'm very easy to get along with and all my residents like me, but I'm not at all aggressive by nature so never get any deliveries, sometimes can't anticipate what I'm supposed to do, etc. So I think I'm considered friendly and nice, but useless which I'm guessing = pass.

Thanks for any advice!

 

[docbiohazard]

Much like my first two years, I just aimed at high passing everything. If I honored, I'd be pleasantly surprised. Each clerkship used its own grading system so I seemed to wash into the HP category every time, with the exception of OB/Gyn, which I honored, which is pretty hillarious all things considered.

You sound like you're on your first rotation of third year, don't worry, you'll get the hang of it, and it'll get - well, maybe not better, but more routine. Before you know it, you'll be a 4th year juggling Step 2 CK, CS, deans letters, CVs, personal statements, ERAS tokens, and who knows what else... 🙂

I figure your grades are important, but since we're talking about Pathology, a pass here or there won't be too fatal to your chances, as long as your actual eval comments are good and reflect that you work hard, are personable, and not a complete freak / slacker / drug addict. Don't be shy about telling your residents or attendings you're interested in Pathology. I've had people tailor their comments on my skills to reflect my aptitude for Pathology, so that's definitely helpful.

Anyway, back to studying...
BH

 

[gbwillner]

Hi all,
Just a quick question about the match in pathology. Everyone is always going around saying how MS3 clerkship grades are the most important thing for applying to residency. Is this also true for pathology? Or do clerkship grades carry less weight due to the fact that H&P and SOAP writing isn't really a big part of pathology? I made an Honors in my Path class last year, so will that help me out? I don't know my Step 1 scores yet but based on practice exams I think I can confidently say that I will break 235.

I heard from a guy who heard froma guy that some programs like MGH won't take you unless you honor surgery.

 

[docbiohazard]

I heard from a guy who heard froma guy that some programs like MGH won't take you unless you honor surgery.

How about a high pass in surg and honors in OB/Gyn... it's like Surgery Lite, right? 🙂

I have trouble imagining that to be true, just because I have a hard time believing that many people honor surgery who don't want to be surgeons... anyone from MGH care to comment?

BH

 

[yaah]

My 3rd year grades were: Honors (surgery), high pass (IM, OB/GYN), pass (FP, Psych, pedes). I also honored my first three 4th year electives (one of which was path). If programs mentioned my clerkship grades, they referred to it as an "outstanding academic record. This included big name programs. So take that for what it's worth.

No one really cares a great deal if you honor specific courses, I would say. Honors never hurt, though.

 

[mlw03]

My 3rd year grades were: Honors (surgery), high pass (IM, OB/GYN), pass (FP, Psych, pedes). I also honored my first three 4th year electives (one of which was path). If programs mentioned my clerkship grades, they referred to it as an "outstanding academic record. This included big name programs. So take that for what it's worth.

No one really cares a great deal if you honor specific courses, I would say. Honors never hurt, though.

thanks for being so open with that info, yaah. i think clerkship grades should matter to pathology residencies for 2 reasons:

1 - pathologists interact with clinicians, and learning what a particular pathologic diagnosis will mean clinically is important. as i'm quickly learning during my pathology rotation it's sometimes a tough call between diagnoses X and Y, and keeping the patient implications of that decision in mind is important.

2 - good grades prove we are teachable. i think this is the true reason step I scores matter as much as they do. will memorizing all that stuff make you a better doc? will most people remember most of it anyway? of course not, but a good score shows you can learn, integrate, and utilize that info, and that's important. same thing applies to clerkship grades, in my opinion.

just mlw's 2 cents... 👍

 

[getunconcsious]

Thanks for all the advice...I'm a bit less worried now. Sorry if I seemed like a gunner--just to clarify, I'm perfectly happy with taking a 'P' in OB/Gyn since it's really not my thing at all. My 2 main worries are:
1) That this rotation is predictive of how all of MS3 will go (I'll hate it, be panicked 80% of the time, and perform mediocre-ly at best)
2) That I'll get a bunch of unflattering comments in my eval which will find their way into my dean's letter.
I think I'm probably just being paranoid though. My next rotation is Psych and I think i'll fare much better on that since I hate procedures, like to talk to people a lot, and have tons of patience. What I don't like is fast-moving situations with lots of unpredictability (hence my hatred of OB). Scenario #2 is probably unlikely (unless my residents are completely fake) because I'm very nice to my residents and they all seem to like me. I figure if I've got to be useless, the least I can do is be likeable, right?

 

[getunconcsious]

My 3rd year grades were: Honors (surgery), high pass (IM, OB/GYN), pass (FP, Psych, pedes). I also honored my first three 4th year electives (one of which was path). If programs mentioned my clerkship grades, they referred to it as an "outstanding academic record. This included big name programs. So take that for what it's worth.

No one really cares a great deal if you honor specific courses, I would say. Honors never hurt, though.

Thanks for being so willing to bust out private info like that, I really appreciate it. Interestingly, all the stuff you HP'ed/honored are the rotations that I anticipate having the most trouble with. The ones that you passed are the ones I'm most looking forward to. LOL. So my hope is that it doesn't really matter too much which clerkships you do well in, just that you do well in some of them. (Which is pretty much what you said anyways).

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Hi all,
Just a quick question about the match in pathology. Everyone is always going around saying how MS3 clerkship grades are the most important thing for applying to residency. Is this also true for pathology? Or do clerkship grades carry less weight due to the fact that H&P and SOAP writing isn't really a big part of pathology? I made an Honors in my Path class last year, so will that help me out? I don't know my Step 1 scores yet but based on practice exams I think I can confidently say that I will break 235.

The reason I ask is because I am 3 weeks into my first rotation (OB/Gyn) and I really don't think there is any way for me to honor it, and even high pass would probably be a stretch. I'm very easy to get along with and all my residents like me, but I'm not at all aggressive by nature so never get any deliveries, sometimes can't anticipate what I'm supposed to do, etc. So I think I'm considered friendly and nice, but useless which I'm guessing = pass.

Thanks for any advice!

Don't sweat your clinical grades. I never got Honors on any single rotation. I received 5 High Passes and 2 Passes. The grades never came up in interviews...that being said, I got a PhD and had publications in reputable journals so maybe that covered up my clinical "deficiencies". Still, I remember looking at applications as a resident...how did you do on Step 1? If you scored really high, then I wouldn't worry too much. If you didn't score high and your 3rd year clinical grades aren't like all Honors...I'd count on your LORs.

 

[yaah]

Thanks for being so willing to bust out private info like that, I really appreciate it. Interestingly, all the stuff you HP'ed/honored are the rotations that I anticipate having the most trouble with. The ones that you passed are the ones I'm most looking forward to. LOL. So my hope is that it doesn't really matter too much which clerkships you do well in, just that you do well in some of them. (Which is pretty much what you said anyways).

Don't be too sure. You sound a bit like me, I loath procedures. I spent most of my surgery clerkship avoiding them, and tried to get in on the surgeries that involved laparoscopes and minimal incisions that required minimal suturing (preferably skin staples). But I read a lot, had a good attitude, worked hard on the floors, and didn't complain, so I got honors. Plus it also helped that the other students on my rotation were bumble****s for the most part.

My personality allows me to seem enthusiastic in fields like surgery and general IM (because I show up early, am efficient, and know a lot about complicated or weird issues, and I am also very thorough) but has the converse of making me seem disinterested and unimpressive in smile-happy-joy-joy fields like FP and peds where I don't come off as impressive in part because I don't shout for joy at "getting my hands dirty" and things like that. The worst, of course, is ER. They hated me in the ER, but thank god I didn't have to do a rotation there, just a few days on other rotations. I tend to do much better in evaluations with old fashioned, hard working, traditionalist-type attendings and residents. The guy who wears the bright yellow tie with elephants on it and wants to be everyone's friend and can't wait to get down to the ER and pull a pussywillow out of some kid's ear? That guy will give me a pass.

 

[deleted113029]

I heard from a guy who heard froma guy that some programs like MGH won't take you unless you honor surgery.

BS! i know for a fact that you do not have to honor surgery to match there. never, ever believe something you heard unless you hear it in person...and even then take what they say with a grain of salt.

 

[superdevil]

great thread. really puts the ol' mind at ease. i don't forsee too many Honors grades for me in 3rd year if things turn out like the devastating experience i just had in my general surgery rotation. there's no way i didn't look like a total buffoon. if getting HP's is not the kiss of death, there may be hope for me yet. well, we'll see what step 1 says...