How important is grading system when picking schools?

[mehc012]

Lucky you pre-meds I popped in.

Anyone that is hating in UW-Madison med school for its grading system is a total ****ing idiot. It's OK, they just don't know what they don't know.

You always apply to your in-state school, even if it's the biggest piece of **** there is.

Then you consider all other schools for which you are competitive.

You can look up the NRMP match data to see data that will literally tell you what each specialty residency program director ranks in order of importance (1, 2, 3, 4) based on a massive survey they fill out. Individual programs will obviously have their own quirks, but in general:

It will not matter to worry too much about specialty now, like half of everyone changes their mind and even with shadow experience untill you've done 3rd yr rotations you have nowhere near the exposure to decide, often not even then. There are probably specialties you've never even heard of at this moment.

Residency is a geographical game, meaning you are most likely to match in your geographical region, but this is not the rule.

General reputation, "name" or pedigree of your med school, will always matter more than ANY ****ing grading system.

Med schools can often be thought of in 4 tiers. UW Madison last I heard was like top of 2nd tier. It is very highly respected and I would not sneer on attending that med school for any reason accept for already being accepted to Harvard if that name meant a lot to you, which it shouldn't.

So worry about getting in, have a thought for geography, and realize that the schools that have prestige are not as related to location as it was for undergrad.

Some fine schools: UW Madison, Mayo (Minnesota, NO one goes to MN except for a great med school) OHSU, St. Louis, Michigan

1) getting in
2) reputation
3) location
4) likelihood you will survive it
5) likelihood you will thrive
(Which means STEP 1 BITCHES!)
6) how good the clinical rotations are (LORs and clinical grades trump preclinical, clinical curriculum plays into Step 2 scores)
7) Preclinical literally only matters for Step 1 score

Dude, nobody in this thread has been hating on UW-Madison. One person asked about the grading scheme and another gave some details before calling the school one of their top choices. Chill.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Psai]

you must live in some fantasy land. pre-meds at my school try to throw each other under the bus, give bad information, or just straight up be a dick on a daily basis. what makes you think it will be better in med school when grades are involved? i know i know, you haven't experienced it first hand so it must not exist.

Because grades are given based on your effort, not based on how well you do compared to others. Medical students are much better people than premeds because they have some more maturity, more accomplishments and the crappy ones tend to be filtered out

 

[mehc012]

Because grades are given based on your effort, not based on how well you do compared to others. Medical students are much better people than premeds because they have some more maturity, more accomplishments and the crappy ones tend to be filtered out

Man, I hope this is at least somewhat true...this thread was starting to make me depressed for my future academic environment.

 

[22031 Alum]

Man, I hope this is at least somewhat true...this thread was starting to make me depressed for my future academic environment.

I think some of the... enthusiastic responses you are getting are just because you are so certain about what will or won't motivate you as a student. You may have an idea, but you actually don't know for sure. Med school is very very much not college, and you/what motivates you will change once you start. Especially at this time of year, when new MS1s are just realizing how much of a different world they are in, and that they don't actually know yet what works best for them, such bold declarations from a pre-med can be off-putting.

I do get where your head is. I had a similar thought process when deciding not to go to a school that requires a LOT of self-motivation (ie optional tests). The difference is, I made that decision after interviews and acceptances and going through the dozens of other factors that go into picking a school. Later on I realized that I ultimately would've done all right there, since my motivation changed/evolved significantly once med school started.

tl;dr- You can guess what kind of med student you'll be, and what environment you'll thrive in, but you don't know yet.

 

[mehc012]

I think some of the... enthusiastic responses you are getting are just because you are so certain about what will or won't motivate you as a student. You may have an idea, but you actually don't know for sure. Med school is very very much not college, and you/what motivates you will change once you start. Especially at this time of year, when new MS1s are just realizing how much of a different world they are in, and that they don't actually know yet what works best for them, such bold declarations from a pre-med can be off-putting.

I do get where your head is. I had a similar thought process when deciding not to go to a school that requires a LOT of self-motivation (ie optional tests). The difference is, I made that decision after interviews and acceptances and going through the dozens of other factors that go into picking a school. Later on I realized that I ultimately would've done all right there, since my motivation changed/evolved significantly once med school started.

tl;dr- You can guess what kind of med student you'll be, and what environment you'll thrive in, but you don't know yet.

I spent the last several years completely reinventing myself as a student, specifically with med school in mind. I may get it wrong, but it's hardly a stretch to consider that what works for me in school, athletics, works, and my personal life will continue to apply, especially when I've put in a conscious effort to make myself as aware of the challenges facing med students as can be possible without living it, and think about how I would react. Could I be wrong? Sure. But I'm the most accurate person there is when it comes to predicting my personal motivators.

At the end of the day, we never will know, since I can't attend both types of schools, and will probably end up simply love/hating whichever school I end up at just like everyone else. So no one really gets to be right or wrong about this, we just get to have opinions...and I'm sorry, I still think that my own opinion on my own preferences is valid.

 

[WedgeDawg]

I spent the last several years completely reinventing myself as a student, specifically with med school in mind. I may get it wrong, but it's hardly a stretch to consider that what works for me in school, athletics, works, and my personal life will continue to apply, especially when I've put in a conscious effort to make myself as aware of the challenges facing med students as can be possible without living it, and think about how I would react. Could I be wrong? Sure. But I'm the most accurate person there is when it comes to predicting my personal motivators.

At the end of the day, we never will know, since I can't attend both types of schools, and will probably end up simply love/hating whichever school I end up at just like everyone else. So no one really gets to be right or wrong about this, we just get to have opinions...and I'm sorry, I still think that my own opinion on my own preferences is valid.

Don't have time to write a longer reply (sorry!) but I can guarantee you with 100% certainty that the bolded will not be true come med school.

 

[mehc012]

Don't have time to write a longer reply (sorry!) but I can guarantee you with 100% certainty that the bolded will not be true come med school.

Study methods, sure, but my basic response to goals and motivation? Is med school going to suddenly make me like going to the gym or running laps, too, just because I won't have time to play team sports like I'm used to?

Also, I didn't have a study technique during undergrad. After reading the med student forums on here and countless other MD student blogs, I developed my own style in Anki during my postbacc specifically because it seemed like a potentially useful method that had a long learning curve and I wanted to have the toolbox ready when I started trying to find my med school study style, but I'm aware that I will have to try a lot of different things before I find what works for me there (just as you have to, on a smaller scale, when starting a new class.)

 

[DokterMom]

Skipped the last half page -- But potentially more relevant than grading policy is testing practices. Infrequent BIG tests, more frequent smaller tests, single-subject at a time tests? If the testing practices don't line up well with your study habits and personal performance strengths and weaknesses, it won't really matter whether they call it a C or a Low Pass -- it'll just look bad.

 

[Crayola227]

Don't even know what the **** Anki is.

I hear y'all talking about new MCAT score schemes, grading schemes, blah blah like any of that **** gives you a handle on the game.

Your basic response to goals and motivation?

I'm laughing. You won't have any left most days but sleep and a vague memory of what happiness was.

You're going to war, son. We all get a different tour, but none of us come back the same.

Why even get defensive about it?
Try a little humility.

 

[mehc012]

Try a little humility.

You first.

 

[Crayola227]

I'm going to stand my ground from the last time this was put forth: I think I will learn more at a school with grades. I hope I get to go to one, but they seem to be getting rarer and rarer, which is a shame.

Also, the H/HP/P/F scale isn't fooling anyone. They should be embarrassed, and just change back to a normal A/B/C/F if they're going to grade like one anyway.

YOU, vs the next two quotes from actual med students:

Madison is near the top of my list and slightly annoyed only first year is P/F. I saw a couple mention on here they were switching it to the first two years, but apparently that isn't a thing.

So I am a M4 at a A/B/C/F school...though the "C' is really a conditional pass and if you get too many of them then there is a chance you will be asked to remediate courses or even repeat the year.

Looking back (N=1), I don't think having actual letter grades affected my class's culture at all in a negative sense. Of course, you always will have your gunners gunning but most people want each other to do well and will help one another. If you are interested in the academic side of things before you matriculate, I might suggest asking about the Step 1/2 averages for the schools of interest. Of course, somehow, every school is "above" the national mean and I don't think most schools provide medians so you really have to take the data with a grain of salt.

I know
I want to get the most out of med school, and in my experience, I will get more out of a graded system.
... and besides...I'm typically the one offering to help

Yes, you know what you want to get out of med school and how to get it.

Posts by members who actually attend graded schools contradict your guarantee. Not every one, sure, but enough that your guarantee is meaningless.

I always do study hard, and have always collaborated with my peers, even at graded institutions. I don't see why that would have to change in med school.
Sure, I care more now than I did before, but I have never been one to stress too much about grades.

Humility dripping from you, not having attended medical school, quoting people who have, to contradict the people who have attended. While you speculate that you have always been a hard studier helping others, and while you care more now, you've never been one to stress too much about grades. Humble.

I go to an ultra-collaborative, P/F allopathic school and people are kicking butt. Lol it's not like the school says "hey bro you passed, but we won't tell you the percentage you got". They release our percentages, and we can gage our results as we please. I'm motivated to do well, and it seems like everyone else in my class is as well. I don't need the anxiety of freaking out over a 89 vs 90, and thinking I jibbed myself between an A/H vs. B/HP. Also, step 1 far supersedes the influence of pre-clinical grades for residency. Some don't like the weight that step 1 carries, but that's a different story.

Anyway, different strokes for different folks. I'm glad with the grading criteria in place at my school and don't envy those at schools that aren't true P/F.

And like TheLionheart has stated, the workload of medical school is no slight task. You'll have to work your hardest to seemingly get by.

More doses of reality from medical students, seconded by other doctors who popped into this forum.

Because if I'm happy with any pass, I'll know I'd be happy with any pass, so I won't continue to push myself once I reach the point where I will achieve that pass. Why would I put in effort beyond what's needed to make me happy?

I feel WAYYY happier when I aim high and succeed at it than when I aim low and succeed at it. I don't feel anything from the latter, whereas the former is awesome! I'm not as excited to go somewhere where I give up all opportunities to really aim high.

I wonder if anyone has ever actually studied the in-class test scores in graded vs pass/fail environments? I don't think it matters, since the in-class grades for P/F places don't affect anything, but I'm still curious. Step scores don't seem like a great stand-in since everyone has to do a certain amount of self-study for that (and it is a great external motivator, as you put it).

It is not a question of expending more effort to be happier, but working harder than you ever have and never getting everything you want. Every med student works harder for less when it comes to credit for doing well, as you mention below.
ANY med school acceptance is the opportunity to aim high. High like you will compete against thousands of other exquisitely selected hard studying test-taking students in self studying 1-6 mos for a test you have all studied for non-stop for 2 years, 40-120 hrs a week take your aim. But we all know time dedicated to studying for the Step 1 is cramming. But a very weak stand in for comparing medical knowledge.

Also, sorry, but I plan to do well and I want to get credit for doing well. I know that sounds egotistic, but yeah, I find that mindset more motivating than "No one will know whether you do great or OK."

Also, I love it when people overemphasize standardized tests...they're by far my biggest strength.

****s on arguably one of the world's hardest standardized tests meant to represent years of endless study, while boasting of plans to do do well and get credit for it, and how good they are at standardized tests.

Also, every school will tell you, graded or pass/fail, IS THAT MOST OF THE TIME AS A PHYSICIAN NO ONE CAN REALLY TELL IF YOU ARE DOING GREAT OR OK, OFTEN YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN TELL HOW MUCH EFFORT YOU PUT IN AND WHAT THE RESULT, THEREFORE, YOU MUST GET USED TO HOLDING YOURSELF TO THE HIGHEST STANDARD AT ALL TIMES WHILE RECEIVING NO CREDIT AT ALL
(in fact someone might literally spit in your face for it)

lThe mean MCAT of matriculants is a 31, which is only 2 points higher than the average score including everyone who didn't get into MD schools (which would be over half of the total pool, if the 40% acceptance number is to be believed). So, yes, those with higher scores are more likely to get in, that's the nature of the game...but not all, or even most students in MD schools are particularly great at standardized tests. (That's a good thing...standardized tests are not particularly meaningful and something ike the MCAT should not be able to be the single barrier to anyone seeking a particular profession.)
I intend to do the latter. I just happen to prefer discrete goals grade-wise. And I said nothing about AOA...getting an A/B/C/F is the recognition. If I pulled off an A grade, or a B, or hell, even if I scrape a C by the skin of my teeth, I want to have that A/B/C to show for it. To me, P/F means that if you put in the effort for an A/B, you'll get a C anyways, which feels like a waste.
If getting a 90 earns me a better grade, sure I won't get it much (if any of the time), but I'll aim for it every time, and when I eff up, I'll probably still pass.

You sneer on the statistics, but note that the 2 points is so easy to get that only around half of people studying their ass off get it. Apparently those 2 points make all the difference, yet are somehow meaningless. And not even half of med students are great at standardized tests.
When you eff up in med school or beyond, you have no idea if you will still pass or not.
You talk as an undergrad that gets accepted to med school: like As and Bs represent effort and Cs are rare. A/B undergrads ARE the average in medical school. C is for average. The average medical student puts in 100% effort and.... gets average. If you care so much about grades, why don't you read what the grade and ranking distributions are at med schools, even those with "embarassing" H/NH/P scales? Many will tell you there is an absolute score and adjusted grade. Meaning, everyone can get a 90%, and only the ones who got 99% got an Honors, and 95% got you NH, and 90% was needed TO BE AVERAGE.
And sometimes the class average is 65%, and that's a pass.
Passes in med school do not feel like "wastes" of effort. Talk about humility.

You're still not getting my point: the grade is the recognition. If you earn an A, you get an A. If you earn a B, you get a B. If you earn a C, you get a C.
At a P/F place, if you earn an A, you get a P. If you earn a B, you get a P. If you earn a C, you get a P. That's the lack of recognition I am talking about. Idgaf about AOA or beating my peers in this particular discussion, it's not relevant to why I would prefer to go to a graded place. Competition against classmates doesn't motivate me.
I am motivated by striving to meet goals. If more effort gets me a better grade, I will put in more effort. If more effort gets me the same grade, frak putting in more effort, once I've met the threshold I'll go play frisbee instead!
All I'm saying is that, knowing myself and how I operate, I will probably put in less effort and get lower grades if I attend a P/F school vs a graded one. I would rather go to a graded one for that reason.

To predict that there is any med school where you can put in less effort and pass

OK, so some people are @$$holes...but just because the premeds at your school are, doesn't mean all med students are/will be. Are you seriously going to sit here and commit the same fallacy you're accusing me of, while pointing it out to me?

Again, you're toe to toe with other med students

I aim for a target. If they move the target closer, I don't have to work as hard at aiming...so I don't.
I don't see how "I want to purposefully tackle the harder goal so that I keep working hard even when I would otherwise be able to ease up" shows a lack of motivation, but OK.

The grading scheme at your program does nothing to move the target, which are the Step scores

I don't think that. I just don't see why the assumption is that the majority of the class will be @sshats just because the school has grades.

Maybe because they thought they needed the "challenge" of grades to get enough challenge from med school?

I can motivate myself...to meet a goal. But there has to be a goal.
I wanted a certain MCAT score, so I sat down and studied my ass off for it. I want an A, I'll sit down and work for it. But you don't see me cramming myself through the med school curriculum right now, when I'm not enrolled, because I'm so incredibly motivated I don't need any structure to help me pace myself and set goals. You don't see pretty much anyone doing that. If everyone else was as gorram motivated as your ideal, we wouldn't even need schools, we'd just have final exams (I'd love that world, btw). But that's not how it works, because like it or not, people need structure and targets, and schools provide that. I prefer a certain kind of target...so what?

I'll sprint all day to make a catch in the endzone, or get the ball in the net. Ask me to beat someone running in circles on a track, and...no thanks. It's the same for school.

LOL. You will want a certain test score in med school, sit down to study for it.... and not always get it. And every test you take will be like a giant finals exam, until you take the most ultimate finals exam.... the Steps, almost each of which doubles the time of the test before it (the MCAT was like a vacation test compared to Step 1). You will enter that world if you are lucky, it is called all of medical school, and you will not love it. No one does. Not the constant final exams part. Learning, patients, sure. Not the tests. You will run circles and circles.. like a hamster in a wheel. That is what being a physician is to a great extent.

@WedgeDawg
Sorry for overly defending myself earlier, but this is an excellent example of why I felt the need to do so...for some reason stating that I perform better in a graded environment seems to evoke this kind of response, where I'm either
- wrong (and stupid)
- dickishly competitive/gunnerish
- naïve
- lazy and unmotivated

Porbably it's just me and I come across as an @$$ posting or something, but since no one else ever posts as pro-grades, and my comments in other threads don't blow up like this, I think the subject matter is at least somewhat relevant (this happens every time this discussion comes up).

You have disagreed with every person who stopped here so far who has been to med school

Man, I hope this is at least somewhat true...this thread was starting to make me depressed for my future academic environment.

Yes, you were starting to wonder if those worthy of medical school were worthy of you

I think some of the... enthusiastic responses you are getting are just because you are so certain about what will or won't motivate you as a student. You may have an idea, but you actually don't know for sure. Med school is very very much not college, and you/what motivates you will change once you start. Especially at this time of year, when new MS1s are just realizing how much of a different world they are in, and that they don't actually know yet what works best for them, such bold declarations from a pre-med can be off-putting.

I do get where your head is. I had a similar thought process when deciding not to go to a school that requires a LOT of self-motivation (ie optional tests). The difference is, I made that decision after interviews and acceptances and going through the dozens of other factors that go into picking a school. Later on I realized that I ultimately would've done all right there, since my motivation changed/evolved significantly once med school started.

tl;dr- You can guess what kind of med student you'll be, and what environment you'll thrive in, but you don't know yet.

I'll show you some humility.

I got all the stats and all the rest to get into medical school, sat down and studied harder than I ever have in my life, and I was so happy to see that I had an 85% on one half of the test, and a 95% on another half, thinking, GREAT! That must average out to put me at Near Honors! (which was true of the one readout, and the initials NH next to it) only to see that the 85% was a Pass, and that the overall total was a Pass.

Did I then vow that all my efforts were wasted? How could I have gone to a school with such low standards as to have H/NH/P/LF/F, where 85% of the class gets a Pass?

I was pretty grateful that 65% was a pass for the rest of the two years. That's how hard the tests were. That's how hard I studied. That's how much there was to know. I got used to the idea of busting my ass, and the recognition I got were two letters, "MD"

 

[ZX10R]

When I was applying I used this as a criteria but ended of going to a graded school, why? Because you want to go to the medical school that has the least about of BS and classes are not mandatory. Believe me my friends that go to schools that require attendance hate life much more than me just going to school for 5 hours 2 or 3 days a week. Also I have way more time to study and free time. When you get in you'll understand what I mean, the professors just read you crap off powerpoints but expect you to learn so much more, so you waste your time going to lecture instead of just studying everything alone. PBL sucks and a school that has heavy emphasis on it I would be afraid of.

 

[mehc012]

I already read the thread - not sure what you're trying to accomplish.
You did increase the font size of one line...where I stated that I was willing to work hard and figured that would continue in med school. Do you disagree that people have to work hard in med school? I really don't get what you're trying to say with this post, largely because you didn't use any words.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

I already read the thread - not sure what you're trying to accomplish.
You did increase the font size of one line...where I stated that I was willing to work hard and figured that would continue in med school.

Maybe they're using it as a personal reminder to work hard and collaborate with others during med school!

 

[WedgeDawg]

I already read the thread - not sure what you're trying to accomplish.
You did increase the font size of one line...where I stated that I was willing to work hard and figured that would continue in med school. Do you disagree that people have to work hard in med school? I really don't get what you're trying to say with this post, largely because you didn't use any words.

I think you need to calm down a little bit. You've made your point and many people happen to disagree with it, which is fine. No need to start being aggressive, particularly towards people who have been through the process and are trying to give you helpful advice based on their experiences.

 

[mehc012]

I think you need to calm down a little bit. You've made your point and many people happen to disagree with it, which is fine. No need to start being aggressive, particularly towards people who have been through the process and are trying to give you helpful advice based on their experiences.

I am not the one being aggressive here...and if Crayola is actually trying to give helpful advice, I'm a bunny rabbit.

 

[Nietzschelover]

I am not the one being aggressive here...and if Crayola is actually trying to give helpful advice, I'm a bunny rabbit.

You are being aggressive. Hint: all of us know when we are being aggressive, a little snarky, a little defensive, etc. And if you don't have that self-awareness (which you basically stated is uniquely infallible) you are going to have some difficulties.

Reading your posts in this thread makes you come across as suggesting that everyone else thinks med school is a "trophies for all" or "participation medals" kind of deal, which is far from the truth and insulting. It's highly competitive and when folks get there they probably don't want to hear that they are pansies for liking a grading system that might be a little less stressful and a little more collaborative. And clearly (read Goro's guide for new med students from today) med school is plenty difficult even for high achievers and even in a P/F environment.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

You are being aggressive. Hint: all of us know when we are being aggressive, a little snarky, a little defensive, etc. And if you don't have that self-awareness (which you basically stated is uniquely infallible) you are going to have some difficulties.

Reading your posts in this thread makes you come across as suggesting that everyone else thinks med school is a "trophies for all" or "participation medals" kind of deal, which is far from the truth and insulting. It's highly competitive and when folks get there they probably don't want to hear that they are pansies for liking a grading system that might be a little less stressful and a little more collaborative. And clearly (read Goro's guide for new med students from today) med school is plenty difficult even for high achievers and even in a P/F environment.

How in the world did you extrapolate the pansies thing from her posts?! She was merely stating her personal preferences.

 

[Nietzschelover]

How in the world did you extrapolate the pansies thing from her posts?! She was merely stating her personal preferences.

If that is wildly inaccurate I apologize. I'll read through again. My impression is that the poster stated her (or his) preference, and has proceeded to re-state that over and over during the course of 2 days suggesting that her preferred grading system is superior in some way and that the most competitive environment possible is the gold standard and best motivation. Why is the poster continuing to debate the matter with several posters if there are no implications implied? And I still like you avatar change.

 

[mehc012]

You are being aggressive. Hint: all of us know when we are being aggressive, a little snarky, a little defensive, etc. And if you don't have that self-awareness (which you basically stated is uniquely infallible) you are going to have some difficulties.

Reading your posts in this thread makes you come across as suggesting that everyone else thinks med school is a "trophies for all" or "participation medals" kind of deal, which is far from the truth and insulting. It's highly competitive and when folks get there they probably don't want to hear that they are pansies for liking a grading system that might be a little less stressful and a little more collaborative. And clearly (read Goro's guide for new med students from today) med school is plenty difficult even for high achievers and even in a P/F environment.

I've been defensive, sure...that is a far cry from aggressive, and not really surprising when the response to "my personal preferences are xyz" is "you are a *****, those won't be your personal preferences".

I'm not suggesting that grades are the best system, or even that they should work best for everyone else. I'm saying that, knowing how my own motivation works, they will probably be a better system for me, and thus I think I would prefer them. I am continuing to discuss the matter because the implication in some (not all, thank you @WedgeDawg for being awesome) responses is that I am wrong about my own preferences and that I am an idiot and, frankly, that irritates the crap out of me and makes me defensive.

The 'participation medals' thing is probably a response to me saying I want recognition. That is poor phrasing and I apologize if it was confusing, all I really meant was that I want my grade to reflect how well I did...if I earned a 'B', I want a 'B', not the same 'P' that I would have gotten had I earned a 'C'. It was really just an attempt to reframe a graded system in a way that reflected why I found it motivating...and I did a piss-poor job of it, apparently, since it irked so many people. This explanation probably won't help, since I put more detail than this in the first time I attempted to describe it, but oh well.

I'm sorry if I came across as saying that P/F is for pansies. That was not at all my intent. I'm saying that if I were in a P/F system, I would slack more than in a graded one. I don't think it's P/F students that that reflects poorly on (though I still think it's rude to jump on that and call me lazy/unmotivated for it).

At any rate, since I've now somehow apparently gone from defending myself to attacking all med students at P/F schools, I'm out. I'm not sure how this turned into such a clusterfrak (well, sort of...the last 2 to chime in were fairly condescending, and I've never responded well to condescension, so I did not keep my cool the way I ought to have and instead became quite prickly) but I'm sorry for it. All I really wanted was to express the minority opinion without being told I was wrong for having it, but I should have done that and just quit while I was ahead instead of getting defensive. My bad.

 

[allantois]

 

[Nietzschelover]

@mehc012 .......now THAT was a great post. Excellent. It is rare to actually see someone take a look at themselves. A quality that could make you a superb doctor. An ability to see defensiveness in oneself and even better, to not be defensive (for real and not just feigned) is about as important a quality as a professional can have imho.

 

[avgn]

I'd like to point out that Penn is H/P/F all four years and I've heard nothing but good things about their collaborative academic environment.

 

[Amba]

I'll add my 2 cents. I'm in year 2 at a school that is P/F during year 1, H/HP/P/F during year 2. Granted, we have just started this block, but our class is just as collaborative and helpful as last year. I don't see that changing throughout the course of the year. That could come off as naivety, but the 3rd and 4th years that I have talked to support that notion.

So far, the biggest difference I have noticed this year is people study harder. The volume of material is also substantially increased compared to year 1, so that may contribute as well. But I don't think many (or any) people in my class view other classmates as competition. If anything, I see how hard a lot of my friends are working, and I study harder as a result since I don't want to fall behind everyone else.

Some may like an atmosphere like this, some may not. And that's fine. I'm sure if I ended up at a true P/F school, I would be just as happy. But I do think the pre-medical community tends to overrate P/F to some extent. Pre-clinical grades aren't a huge deal, and I do think that having grades contributes somewhat to the high Step 1 scores at my school (there is also evidence supporting this).

For pre-clinical years, I think non-mandatory attendance and having tests that are spaced widely apart have contributed much more to my well-being that true P/F would have.

 

[imymemine]

yea i didn't read this whole thread... but it seems like preclinical P/F is being glorified as usual. generally i think the P/F movement is waaay overblown - there are advantages to a graded preclinical system.

preclinical grades are purely objective - everyone takes the same test and if you know the material you are rewarded for the work it took to learn it. compare this to clinical year grades where the greatest factor for your grade can be circumstances outside of your control - ie who is evaluating you. a preclinical P/F system, by removing 1-2 years of purely objective grades, thus increases the subjectivity of your overall GPA & class rank. if you are truly a good student, why would this greater amount of subjectivity and variance be advantageous?

and what kind of a doctor would you prefer to take care of a loved one of yours: the doctor who "suffered" through two years of preclinical grades in order to make As, or the one who was presumably allowed to "slide" a bit through P/F? some would prefer the one who suffered to be the best as opposed to the sheltered one. sure you could argue this is peanuts in the grand scheme of things, but the general philosophy of protecting the feelings of medical students over maximizing competence would irk some.

to answer original question, i don't think the grading system should be a factor at all. it's a non-issue compared to location, prestige, and cost.

 

[altblue]

Going off the argument here, honestly threads like this remind me of why the idea of attending medical school scares me. In undergrad I can do the occasional netflix binge, or party, or procrastinate and still land on my feet. From what I've heard, the material itself in med school is dense enough, so passing actually means something, and so I highly doubt I'll be able to catch up after doing those things and simply pass. I can't begin to imagine the amount of stress of a graded pre-clinical cirriculum, where on top of trying to pass, I'm competing with very smart, hardworking individuals for grades.

 

[mehc012]

Just curious...for everyone else here, does graded automatically equal 'curved' in your minds? Because that might be part of why my opinion differs so much. All of my classes have always handled grading by setting a particular grading scale and seeing where you fall on that scale...I've only once faced a "the top 10% get an A, and anyone below that, regardless of numerical grade, does not" type situation. That may be why 'graded' does not automatically equal 'competition' to me, as well.

Maybe I'm wrong, but the phrasing on some of these posts is starting to make me wonder whether most people equate 'graded' and 'curved' (and therefore whether that's how most med schools are graded, which would force me to spend some time rethinking my stance).

 

[mrspecialist]

Do residency schools care on the grading system?

 

[WedgeDawg]

While I understand the sentiment, I would avoid using Penn and WashU as standards for any argument involving merits of non true P/F grading. Using these schools is basically saying "oh two of the best med schools in the world are not using P/F and get great results therefore it's an awesome system" which is basically also saying "oh Hopkins uses true P/F and has amazing results therefore it's an awesome system". It's a combination of factors for sure, and trying to suggest that just because a top school with an MCAT median of 98-99% makes it work means that it works for everyone is a fallacious argument.

Do what you think is best for you and don't worry about what other people think is best for them, and don't try to compare yourself to a top school, even from another top school. There is nothing to be gleaned from doing so.

Again, best of luck to everyone here. I hope your endeavors bring you nothing but smashing success.

 

[avgn]

Do residency schools care on the grading system?

"Residency schools"

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

1. Regardless of grading system, the overwhelming majority of medical students believe their own environment to be collaborative and supportive. Each students brags about his or her own experience and how their system is "the best"; however they only actually experience one system for themselves.

What this tells me, having read a lot of these posts over time, is that it really doesn't matter much. Most med students will be collaborative and supportive in any grading environment.

2. People have actually studied this. I'm not gonna dig for the citations because it's saturday and I've got stuff to do, but hours studied (self reported) and average test scores don't change when schools shift grading systems.

What this tells me is that most med students are relatively self starters and are going to study hard regardless.

3. Pass Fail often doesn't mean pass fail. First of all, is there any meaningful difference between A/B/C/F and H/HP/P/F? Second of all, how many of your alleged P/F schools are keeping internal scores and class rankings? (Hint, it's most of them - if you don't believe me, read some Dean's letters)

---

This is one of those things that pre-meds obsess over but really doesn't matter that much at all in hindsight. It's not like P/F means med school is magically easy or that you can coast your way to that P.

 

[BamaNicole]

I can't imagine being at a school with letter grades (or H/HP/P/etc) in the preclinical years. I'm at a true pass fail school, and the level of collaboration within our class is amazing.

I totally agree with TheLionHeart's post above. Being at a pass fail school with no ranking is amazing. Even in second year, there is still a pretty high level of collaboration. We're always helping each other out in many different ways.

Being at a P/F school means that you can take extra time during the week to go to a volunteer event or to do a clinic night. You don't have to worry about memorizing every detail on the slide to get that extra edge.

 

[Psai]

I totally agree with TheLionHeart's post above. Being at a pass fail school with no ranking is amazing. Even in second year, there is still a pretty high level of collaboration. We're always helping each other out in many different ways.

Being at a P/F school means that you can take extra time during the week to go to a volunteer event or to do a clinic night. You don't have to worry about memorizing every detail on the slide to get that extra edge.

I'm at a graded school we have been collaborative and I've done things like volunteering and clinic. Not sure what you're trying to brag about here

 

[avgn]

I'm at a graded school we have been collaborative and I've done things like volunteering and clinic. Not sure what you're trying to brag about here

People just don't realize that most med schools are collaborative. They think it's all because of the grading system.

 

[imymemine]

I totally agree with TheLionHeart's post above. Being at a pass fail school with no ranking is amazing. Even in second year, there is still a pretty high level of collaboration. We're always helping each other out in many different ways.

Being at a P/F school means that you can take extra time during the week to go to a volunteer event or to do a clinic night. You don't have to worry about memorizing every detail on the slide to get that extra edge.

I'm sure you enjoy life now... you're in the "slide" phase. Will you be happy during clinical year when your entire GPA / class rank / AOA depends on a largely subjective grading system? I would also call that "memorizing every detail" striving for a higher level of competence. Would you prefer if a doctor taking care of your loved one gave less than 100% to increasing their fund of knowledge in medical school? There is definitely a place for volunteering, early clinical experience, and work-life balance - but preclinical students will never have another opportunity to absorb so much book knowledge in their careers, and many students at graded schools still do ECs.

Edit: to clarify since i think that may have come off as overly harsh and one-sided, my stance on P/F is that it's not an important issue either way when choosing a school - i merely want to provide reassurance to prospective students that going to a graded preclinical school is not as terrible as SDN usually makes it out to be, and even has its own advantages.

 

[Affiche]

@mehc012 you got totally attacked in here lol.

I don't see anything wrong with having preferences for curriculum at this point. Those preferences may change, sure, but why choose something you know that you don't prefer in the hopes that you may prefer it once you start med school? That would't be a very logical decision to make. Based on my previous experiences, I have a tendency to lean towards doing minimal work when things get overwhelming and I know I can get away with giving less than 110%. I work well under pressure, and if a grading system applies that pressure, it might be better for me. I anticipate that P/F might not apply that pressure to keep me pushing when I'm already exhausted. That's a personal decision based on my personal tendencies. I'm identifying a weakness of mine and looking for a program that may mitigate it. I don't see how there can be anything wrong with that.

It sounds like med schools are very collaborative environments regardless of curriculum. I'm grateful for that and definitely looking forward to it.

 

[22031 Alum]

It sounds like med schools are very collaborative environments regardless of curriculum. I'm grateful for that and definitely looking forward to it

Bingo!

Also, re: why choose a system you know you don't like... I can't emphasize enough how unlike anything you've done before med school will be. Before med school I knew I didn't like skipping lecture, I knew I didn't like studying in a group, I knew I didn't like studying by drawing/mapping out concepts... I could go on. All things I was so absolutely certain about, but changed my tune on once faced with a new environment.

 

[Affiche]

Bingo!

Also, re: why choose a system you know you don't like... I can't emphasize enough how unlike anything you've done before med school will be. Before med school I knew I didn't like skipping lecture, I knew I didn't like studying in a group, I knew I didn't like studying by drawing/mapping out concepts... I could go on. All things I was so absolutely certain about, but changed my tune on once faced with a new environment.

I understand this and definitely do expect some things to change. I guess I see it this way: I hated going to lecture in college and found it inefficient, so why would I choose a school with mandatory attendance just because other people say it's not that bad? I expect that some preferences will change, but I can't bank on them changing or choose a curriculum based on the assumption that my preferences will change. What if they don't? Then I'm stuck with a curriculum that doesn't fit me when I felt that it was a bad fit all along. When going through this process, we can take into account all the experiences and advice of other medical students, but at the end of the day we have to make a decision that we feel is best for us (which will largely depend on our previous good/bad experiences).

 

[22031 Alum]

I understand this and definitely do expect some things to change. I guess I see it this way: I hated going to lecture in college and found it inefficient, so why would I choose a school with mandatory attendance just because other people say it's not that bad? I expect that some preferences will change, but I can't bank on them changing or choose a curriculum based on the assumption that my preferences will change. What if they don't? Then I'm stuck with a curriculum that doesn't fit me when I felt that it was a bad fit all along. When going through this process, we can take into account all the experiences and advice of other medical students, but at the end of the day we have to make a decision that we feel is best for us (which will largely depend on our previous good/bad experiences).

You're right, but I think grading scale is one of the least important factors that should weigh into that decision. That is, IF you're even lucky enough to be in the position to choose, which shouldn't be taken for granted.

Mandatory lecture vs. none is not the same choice as P/F vs. graded, and I would rank it as a more important factor.

 

[Affiche]

You're right, but I think grading scale is one of the least important factors that should weigh into that decision. That is, IF you're even lucky enough to be in the position to choose, which shouldn't be taken for granted.

Mandatory lecture vs. none is not the same choice as P/F vs. graded, and I would rank it as a more important factor.

I agree that they are definitely not the same and that attendance policy is a more important factor. Either way, it sounds like the environment will be supportive and for that we can all be grateful (and chill out about the importance of grading).

 

[WedgeDawg]

I would like to clarify (revise?) my position on this issue.

I have only ever attended one medical school and have not yet taken an exam, so anything I say may not be applicable/relevant.

When I was looking at schools, I knew for sure that I wanted a true P/F system. I knew I would work my hardest no matter what grading system I had, but that I would have much less internal stress both about studying and about the actual grade I receive. I am all about aiming for the best that I can do regardless of reward, but I also recognize and thereafter ignore diminishing marginal returns and know that I would probably try to get the 90 for the H rather than the 85 for the HP (or whatever) even though it takes me as long to get those extra 5 points as it did for me to go from 70 to 85, and I think I might beat myself up mentally if I got, say, an 87 rather than 90. I want to absorb, process, and be able to apply as much information as I can, but I now have the opportunity to do so without worrying about external validation for it. All about personal preference.

I didn't want to be ranked against my classmates for the preclinical years, and although most people going into medical school are very collaborative (certainly everyone here is!), there is always the chance that some rogue, unscrupulous student will find their way into your class. The P/F system removes any incentive for that student to engage in unscrupulous activities, whereas there is slightly more incentive for that in anything other than true P/F. Are the chances of this happening high, even in an A/B/C/D/F scale? Absolutely not, but they are at least marginally higher than they would be in a true P/F system. Although the likelihood of being backstabbed by a classmate is very slim, I personally enjoy the peace of mind that I am in a system that has the least chance of this occurring, whether it makes a practical difference or not.

Now, in the long run, will this make a difference? Honestly, I doubt it. I don't think residency directors particularly care about the grading system your school has, and medical students from all systems go on to become stellar residents and attendings, so it doesn't seem to have much of an impact.

The greatest perceived advantage for me was that there is a lot less mental stress, both about relative performance to classmates (I admit that I still compare myself to other people and I am doing my best to suppress this urge) and about getting certain grades, even when they really won't make a difference in the long run. Maybe it's just the type of person I am, but I certainly think that I, personally, would feel a lot more stressed in a system that is not true P/F (and I'm already pretty stressed out in true P/F lol).

The takeaway here, I think, is that there are certainly merits to both systems (though I am obviously biased towards true P/F), though the pros/cons list might look different for different people depending on what they want. Some people might like being graded and need that external validation to put forth their best effort while others might find it an extra form of unnecessary stress.

As I said in a previous post, do what you think is best for you, but particularly given how difficult the transition into medical school can be, I don't think the decision between system (if you have a choice) is as trivial as others are making it out to be, though it likely shouldn't be your primary concern.

 

[avgn]

@WedgeDawg what you're basically saying is that those most benefited by true P/F are the overthinking, easily stressed out, extremely risk averse students. If you cut out the "omg there might be some gunner out there to get me" and "UGH 3 points away" kind of thoughts, all the worries you described are immaterial. These thoughts are not the product of the grading system; they are personality flaws already present in individuals.

It is sad, but I have to admit that the general premed population is exactly susceptible to those kind of worries, hence all the fuss about grading systems. The system doesn't make students stressed out, much like SDN doesn't make you neurotic; you already were prone to those problems at the outset.

 

[WedgeDawg]

@WedgeDawg what you're basically saying is that those most benefited by true P/F are the overthinking, easily stressed out, extremely risk averse students. If you cut out the "omg there might be some gunner out there to get me" and "UGH 3 points away" kind of thoughts, all the worries you described are immaterial. These thoughts are not the product of the grading system; they are personality flaws already present in individuals.

It is sad, but I have to admit that the general premed population is exactly susceptible to those kind of worries, hence all the fuss about grading systems. The system doesn't make students stressed out, much like SDN doesn't make you neurotic; you already were prone to those problems at the outset.

The bolded describes most first year medical students lol.

I'm not at all saying the thoughts are the product of the grading system, I'm saying certain grading systems may be more appealing to certain subsets of students. However, I will go as far to say that for the vast majority of medical students, P/F will be less stressful than non-P/F. And yeah, if you remove those worries, you still end up with "it's totally okay if I only get a 75 on my exam because a pass is a pass". From a more practical standpoint, it allows you to do other cool things (like go on transplant runs, work in a free clinic, shadow, etc) that would take away time from your studying without thinking about how it will affect your grade. If you can be totally okay with getting a P in a H/HP/P/F system, then that's fine, but I don't in all honesty think I could do that.

I think it would be misleading to say that grading systems and stress are not connected. However, I think it would be accurate to say that the grading system isn't the cause of the stress, just an amplifier of it.

Again, only 1 week in, haven't had a test, am stressed out because school is hard, so there may be underlying bias in my observations right now. Ask me again in a few months and I might have a different answer.

 

[Affiche]

Erm...I have to disagree about that SDN bit. I swear this site turns even the most sane student into a neurotic one.

 

[avgn]

The bolded describes most first year medical students lol.

I'm not at all saying the thoughts are the product of the grading system, I'm saying certain grading systems may be more appealing to certain subsets of students. However, I will go as far to say that for the vast majority of medical students, P/F will be less stressful than non-P/F. And yeah, if you remove those worries, you still end up with "it's totally okay if I only get a 75 on my exam because a pass is a pass". From a more practical standpoint, it allows you to do other cool things (like go on transplant runs, work in a free clinic, shadow, etc) that would take away time from your studying without thinking about how it will affect your grade. If you can be totally okay with getting a P in a H/HP/P/F system, then that's fine, but I don't in all honesty think I could do that.

I think it would be misleading to say that grading systems and stress are not connected. However, I think it would be accurate to say that the grading system isn't the cause of the stress, just an amplifier of it.

Again, only 1 week in, haven't had a test, am stressed out because school is hard, so there may be underlying bias in my observations right now. Ask me again in a few months and I might have a different answer.

...well duh, if you know that students were neurotic to begin with, then there can be no conclusions as to which system is "better," since "better" here would mean decreasing neuroticism, so obviously the P/F warriors win. That tells us nothing about how the systems compare to each other. Since performance is largely the same, we can only responsibly conclude that they're pretty much the same damn thing. Stop this nonsense with surmising that graded schools will suddenly make everyone a gunner. It doesn't. Neurotic, close-minded people think that and will thus believe that. Stupid premeds will obsess over grading systems and rank and ignore more important school characteristics when making a decision. Sad ****

 

[avgn]

Erm...I have to disagree about that SDN bit. I swear this site turns even the most sane student into a neurotic one.

It doesn't. If someone thinks it does, s/he was already neurotic in some other way shape or form and just didn't realize it. And there are few people at our age with our achievements and life goals who have zero neuroticism within them.

SDN amplifies, it does not create.

 

[Affiche]

 

[efle]

It doesn't. If someone thinks it does, s/he was already neurotic in some other way shape or form and just didn't realize it. And there are few people at our age with our achievements and life goals who have zero neuroticism within them.

SDN amplifies, it does not create.

I dunno man I wasn't freaking out about lack of research until coming on here and seeing it mentioned as an unofficial requirement for Top 20s
I think SDN creates neuroticism via informing overachievers of their app flaws

 

[md-2020]

I dunno man I wasn't freaking out about lack of research until coming on here and seeing it mentioned as an unofficial requirement for Top 20s
I think SDN creates neuroticism via informing overachievers of their app flaws

Research isn't going to be a dealbreaker, tbh. Even at noted research mega-powerhouse Stanford, in 2013 only 1/3 of their entering class was published.

Out of 102 students in the class of 2017, this proportion is smaller than the prevalence of students from Stanford (19), Harvard (11), Yale (11), and MIT (7).


I think SDN creates neuroticism and worry from an extreme over-representation of top stat applicants (the good ol' LizzyM).

 

[Glazedonutlove]

Research isn't going to be a dealbreaker, tbh. Even at noted research mega-powerhouse Stanford, only 1/3 of their entering class was published.


I think SDN creates neuroticism and worry from an extreme over-representation of top stat applicants.

publication doesn't equal research experience..