How important is it to tell residency programs you're interested?

[CTR]

At the conclusion of my interview day, one of the residency programs I visited told me that I should let them know some time before match day if I'm interested in them. Supposedly they will rank me higher if I tell them I want to go there. But why?

I had previously imagined that programs simply rank applicants in the order that they like them... regardless of how much each applicant actually wants to go there. Is there a limit to how many applicants a program can rank? Or are programs more interested in having a resident who really wants to be there, over one who may be more qualified but perhaps does not have as much desire to match there?

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[spinnerette]

At the conclusion of my interview day, one of the residency programs I visited told me that I should let them know some time before match day if I'm interested in them. Supposedly they will rank me higher if I tell them I want to go there. But why?

I had previously imagined that programs simply rank applicants in the order that they like them... regardless of how much each applicant actually wants to go there. Is there a limit to how many applicants a program can rank? Or are programs more interested in having a resident who really wants to be there, over one who may be more qualified but perhaps does not have as much desire to match there?

I do have the same question.
One interviewer told me that he wanted to take me and that I should let the PDs know if I would rank them #1.
I really liked the program but I'm not the type who would likely do that. I'm just wondering if it matters. If I choose not to "sell-out", would I lose the chance at matching there?

It's just a matter of principle for me.

 

[atsai3]

I do have the same question.
One interviewer told me that he wanted to take me and that I should let the PDs know if I would rank them #1.
I really liked the program but I'm not the type who would likely do that. I'm just wondering if it matters. If I choose not to "sell-out", would I lose the chance at matching there?

It's just a matter of principle for me.

Human nature. Some programs really want to be wanted, and it is very important to them that they not dip too far down in their rank list. Rather than sort amongst all of their candidates, they would simply rather sort amongst just the ones who (say they) really want to match there.

 

[psychphan]

I've heard some programs do it to boost their stats, so they can say, "we only had to rank 15 ppl to fill our 12 spots". Makes them feel wanted and implies to future applicants that everyone wants to be there. Personally, I would find this kind of pressure off-putting and kind of douchey. Truly strong programs don't need to pressure applicants into choosing them. For example,I was recently at Duke and during my interview the PD made a comment on how strong a program UNC was. To me that showed confidence in the strength of her own program that she feels comfortable enough to compliment neighboring residencies.

 

[whopper]

I don't think there is an answer to this because a lot of this depends on the psychology of the individual program director or coordinator.

I knew some people in these positions where if called they got ticked because it was literally one of dozens a day that could've been intrusive and bothersome.

While letters are less intrusive, I've even seen that set off some. I do recommend everyone at least send a thank you note, but more than that I don't know.

If a program wants you, I figure they're more likely to want verification that you want them. Kinda like going on a first date with someone you very much like, and then getting the call back that the date went well. Every program I've seen had a PD that wanted a few specific people and wanted to foster the relationship with them that I'm calling category A. Aside from that circle, the rest of the applicants were put in lower categories, B-good but not on the PD or PC's top list, C-average, no reason to put these people in the PD or PC's long-term memory bank, or D-forget about them.

But just like dating, you sometimes can't tell. This could be real finicky. I've said this before in prior posts. Never call the PC as if they're a servant and use them as a pseudo-therapist in dealing with your application process worries. I've found that to be a sure way for the PC to tell the PD "this guy is really ticking me off. Let's nix him, I don't care what his scores were. If he's like this now, I figure he'll be a nervous wreck as a resident." There's such a thing as communicating too much. It really all depends on the individual and how they perceive it and most applicants don't know the PD or PC well enough to know the answer.

 

[Saluki]

The contact after the interviews is a confusing issue.

One of the programs encouraged me in person and via response to my thank you email that I should keep in touch as the interview season went on, but when I actually sent an update a couple weeks ago, I never received a response. One of my interviews at that institution hadn't gone as well as the others, so now I'm worried that once he got the feedback from that interviewer he no longer was interested. There are a million other rational explanations, but right now the doomsday scenario is the one that appears most likely to me.

I think I will contact my first choice and tell them I'm ranking them first. I don't think, though, that any of the places I interviewed at actually pushed for any sort of commitment. If the program really is your first choice, I don't see the moral issue from your side in telling them so; the moral issue would be on the program's side if they are implying that receiving a match would be contingent on you telling the program that they were number one.

I had also planned on telling numbers two and three on my rank list that they were one of my top choices, but someone in the general residency forum posted that telling a program like that is telling them for sure that they're not number one and would actually hurt you.
.

 

[atsai3]

The contact after the interviews is a confusing issue.

One of the programs encouraged me in person and via response to my thank you email that I should keep in touch as the interview season went on, but when I actually sent an update a couple weeks ago, I never received a response. One of my interviews at that institution hadn't gone as well as the others, so now I'm worried that once he got the feedback from that interviewer he no longer was interested. There are a million other rational explanations, but right now the doomsday scenario is the one that appears most likely to me.

I think I will contact my first choice and tell them I'm ranking them first. I don't think, though, that any of the places I interviewed at actually pushed for any sort of commitment. If the program really is your first choice, I don't see the moral issue from your side in telling them so; the moral issue would be on the program's side if they are implying that receiving a match would be contingent on you telling the program that they were number one.

I had also planned on telling numbers two and three on my rank list that they were one of my top choices, but someone in the general residency forum posted that telling a program like that is telling them for sure that they're not number one and would actually hurt you.
.

The multiple interpretations of no-communication goes both ways.

I question the wisdom of telling a program director "I will rank you highly". A program director knows, conditional on your being an honest person, that you can only tell one program director "I will rank you #1". So a statement like "I will rank you highly" has only one interpretation: "I will not be ranking you #1". On the other hand, if you choose not to communicate with a program director, that could have multiple interpretations: "I'm not interested in you", "I will rank you #1 but I don't play the communication game", "I haven't decided yet", etc. So from a game theoretic perspective, I think that an ambiguous communication would be better than a non-ambiguous "I will not be ranking you #1".

 

[belle54321]

A couple of the programs that I interviewed at made some statements about the communications during the interview seasons. Yale made it clear that they will not contact us before the match. The PD even gave a JAMA article "Manipulation and the Match." Columbia said that either the PD or aPD would call everyone 7-10 days after interview to see if we had any more questions. The aPD called but she was actually kind of vague and left the door open for additional communications.

I think it is absolutely ridiculous that there is this kind of gaming going on when the match is supposed to make the whole process transparent and straight forward.

 

[NoNoNoNo]

A couple of the programs that I interviewed at made some statements about the communications during the interview seasons. Yale made it clear that they will not contact us before the match. The PD even gave a JAMA article "Manipulation and the Match." Columbia said that either the PD or aPD would call everyone 7-10 days after interview to see if we had any more questions. The aPD called but she was actually kind of vague and left the door open for additional communications.

I think it is absolutely ridiculous that there is this kind of gaming going on when the match is supposed to make the whole process transparent and straight forward.

Agreed. It's sad and uncomfortable to watch some of the groveling and manipulating. (And do my best to keep out, too.)

I really liked that Yale's PD said that.

 

[Saluki]

I'm not above groveling for my top choice, but it makes me uncomfortable to have programs lower down on my list trying to fish for information on how likely I am to rank them. It's not even quid pro quo, because they're asking me how committed I am to them without offering any indications of their feelings in return.

It doesn't seem like this is quite how the match is designed to work, but it does seem like a couple of the program directors are trying to reverse the trend. I received the JAMA article mentioned above on "Manipulation and the Match" at two different interviews.

 

[BobA]

At the conclusion of my interview day, one of the residency programs I visited told me that I should let them know some time before match day if I'm interested in them. Supposedly they will rank me higher if I tell them I want to go there. But why?

I had previously imagined that programs simply rank applicants in the order that they like them... regardless of how much each applicant actually wants to go there. Is there a limit to how many applicants a program can rank? Or are programs more interested in having a resident who really wants to be there, over one who may be more qualified but perhaps does not have as much desire to match there?

I imagine it could have something to do with programs wanting residents who will WANT to be at their program - residents who won't be unhappy there or try to leave. Both of those are terrible situation for PD's and I'm sure they'd like to avoid them.

 

[IAmAUser]

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[LEdaddy]

this

the PD wants to look good to their department chair

so yes, you should definitely tell your #1 that they are #1. if you tell this to multiple programs, they WILL likely find out. they talk to each other, especially if they are in the same geographic area.

When does all of this craziness start? After Jan 1? February?

 

[MiddleRoad]

If one is considering telling a program that they are #1, when should it be done? Do programs typically make their rank lists in mid-February?

 

[OldPsychDoc]

this

the PD wants to look good to their department chair

so yes, you should definitely tell your #1 that they are #1. if you tell this to multiple programs, they WILL likely find out. they talk to each other, especially if they are in the same geographic area.

Ummm--No.

Sorry, but you're just NOT that important.
PDs are not carrying a list of applicants around the AADPRT meeting comparing notes.

Programs _will_ find out if a candidates they placed as a sure-thing, "ranked to match" end up matching somewhere else, though. But while it may leave us briefly puzzled, we don't care--and it's not like there's any way we're going to retaliate. (Face it--we'll barely remember we interviewed you in five years, so we won't even care if you're applying for a job with us!) But at the end of the day, you have to live with deciding whether you're living honestly and being straightforward in your dealings with your future colleagues...

Oh, and if you really ARE ranking us #1 and want to tell us--cool, thanks. But just be honest, that's all.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Ummm--No.

Sorry, but you're just NOT that important.
PDs are not carrying a list of applicants around the AADPRT meeting comparing notes.

Programs _will_ find out if a candidates they placed as a sure-thing, "ranked to match" end up matching somewhere else, though. But while it may leave us briefly puzzled, we don't care--and it's not like there's any way we're going to retaliate. (Face it--we'll barely remember we interviewed you in five years, so we won't even care if you're applying for a job with us!) But at the end of the day, you have to live with deciding whether you're living honestly and being straightforward in your dealings with your future colleagues...

Oh, and if you really ARE ranking us #1 and want to tell us--cool, thanks. But just be honest, that's all.

This about sums it up. SDN makes us paranoid.