How important is reputation/ranking?

[sponge]

---

Members do not see this ad.

How important is the reputation of a med school?

To me, I think its most important that students recieve excellent hands-on clinical experience (so they can be good/excellent residents) in a variety of fields (so they know which specialty to enter, and also have an understanding, if not appreciation, of other specialities).

But as for name recognition of the school, how important is it? For NYC schools, say Columbia vs NYU vs Downstate for example.

And will it make more of a difference if one does a combined degree, like an MPH, and would like to do clinical research, advocate certain public health policies, or other things than just practice medicine?

 

[nmnrraven]

How important is the reputation of a med school?

You're asking for a huge debate with this question. I have been accepted to big name schools and my personal opinion is that the name will get you little in the grand scheme of things. There are many people who go to Harvard and become nothings. There are many people who never go to college and become huge. There is a correlation between going to big name schools and being big-time but that's really only because those big name schools accept people more likely to go big-time.

The answer is that everything, and i mean everything, depends on you. If it is a US accredited medical school, then it is good. Someone who goes to Harvard and does terrible on the USMLE is not as impressive as someone who goes elsewhere and gets top scores. You decide your own fate, not your schools. The reputation can only produe a prejudice for or against you. That prejudice will only last until your own abilities are evaluated.

 

[Law2Doc]

You're asking for a huge debate with this question. I have been accepted to big name schools and my personal opinion is that the name will get you little in the grand scheme of things. There are many people who go to Harvard and become nothings. There are many people who never go to college and become huge. There is a correlation between going to big name schools and being big-time but that's really only because those big name schools accept people more likely to go big-time.

The answer is that everything, and i mean everything, depends on you. If it is a US accredited medical school, then it is good. Someone who goes to Harvard and does terrible on the USMLE is not as impressive as someone who goes elsewhere and gets top scores. You decide your own fate, not your schools. The reputation can only produe a prejudice for or against you. That prejudice will only last until your own abilities are evaluated.

Agree with this. All other things being equal, a good school's name will help. But all other things are never equal. You can get to a good residency from any allo school if you do well. You can end up not matching from a top school if you suck the house down. It's all in your hands whatever you decide.
That being said, unless you had a strong opinion/reaction about the three of the NY schools you listed, I would probably personally select them in the order you wrote, unless substantial financial incentives made a different order make more sense.

 

[kenmc3]

When you talk about ranking you are probably referring to US news. A large chunk of their ranking system looks at the NIH funding a particular institution receives. While research is important it doesn’t have much bearing on the quality of doctors the school produces. In my experience the professors who bring in the big research $$$ are very poor teachers (caring more about research than some medical students). I have seen schools make giant leaps on this ranking scale simply because they received a large NIH grant that particular year. Clearly the quality of their medical education or graduating physicians couldn’t have improved that much in one year.

I say take rankings with a grain of salt. Sure going to Harvard may help you get into a more competitive residency, or get a good teaching position. But if you go into private practice not many people will care. Remember that these rankings are very subjective and very temporary. The quality of the medical education at most US medical schools is very similar. There aren’t too many different ways to teach the same material and an eyeball is an eyeball no matter what school you attend. I guarantee you that Harvard graduates bad doctors and that small state schools graduate some great doctors. I understand that rankings and reputations seem important now and for some people they are. But for most people it will probably never matter.

I say, go to the school you like the best. Since you will be spending 4+ years there, it will probably weigh more on your life that the schools ranking will.

 

[represent_CV]

i have a different take on this...for two reasons

1) selecting a school isn't just about the education, its about the people you'll meet and the opportunities you'll have through them.

-- at any medical school you'll learn the same anatomy, physiology, pharmacology, etc... just like in every undergrad everyone learned the same biology, ochem, gchem necessary for the mcat and research. however, the medical school you go to will inevitably position you for a great residency/job because of the people you'll meet (classmates and professors) and the connections you'll form. this is just like a person that went to harvard or stanford undergrad and obviously has some better connections to help them along their career as say someone who went to some state school with 5x as many people/not as ambitious overall. this can be extended to letters of rec. and companies that began as spin offs of an academic institution.

2) coming out of a great (top 10) institution with the same stats as someone who came out of a lower ranked institution gives you an edge when applying for residency/jobs

-- of course, in the outlier cases ( top or bottom of your class ) there is a clear difference between the last girl/guy @ say columbia versus #1 in his/her class a lower ranked school such as uc irvine. however, most people are not outliers. most people fall somewhere closer to a mean and thus the school's reputation will carry you a long way. say for example...a 3.5 gpa and a 30 MCAT from harvard is probably a lot better than a 3.5 and a 30 mcat from san diego state. in a case like this, going to a top ranked school will carry you further than going to a smaller, less recognized institution.


just my two cents, feel free to disagree. but i definitely saw some help in the application process coming from a very highly ranked undergraduate institution as opposed to some friends with the same stats coming from lower ranked undergrads

 

[nutmegs]

less important than how you thrive in the school's environment

 

[Law2Doc]

but i definitely saw some help in the application process coming from a very highly ranked undergraduate institution as opposed to some friends with the same stats coming from lower ranked undergrads

Sure, but its not really the same. There are only 120 some odd med schools with a very finite number of seats. There are many many multiples that many undergrads. There is likely a more appreciable difference between the most and least prestigious undergrad than med school. Thus since the med school universe is so much more finite, the range from top to bottom is smaller, and likely perceived that way by residency directors. I'm basing this on the fact that the top school's graduates don't get all the top residencies -- check out the thread on match lists and you will see that folks from everywhere match anywhere. A great board score will take you much farther than the school name.

 

[drchekhov]

1) selecting a school isn't just about the education, its about the people you'll meet and the opportunities you'll have through them.

...this can be extended to letters of rec. and companies that began as spin offs of an academic institution.

Although in general I agree more with Law2Doc's sentiments, I concede this point to the prestige crowd. If you want to do hot-shot research, create policy, or build a Rolodex full of important colleagues, then reputation will help you.

However, after a certain point, I think prestige rapidly deteriorates as useful measure, especially because of the fluctuation in funding issues addressed. Where does this decay begin? Probably after the first twenty, possibly even ten, schools. Beyond them, you shouldn't look at the numerical rankings so much as group schools under categories that are important to you: location, curriculum design, cost, research facilities, goals to serve certain segments of the population, etc.

 

[lea]

Speaking to current Harvard med students, they say that the name DOES take you far. They laugh at students who score well on the boards, but come from non-ivy/non-big name schools because these HARVARD kids can do mediocre on the boards and still get into an even better residency.

But, I have spoken to quite a few doctors who say that harvard grads often do not fare well when it actually comes to being a resident...

Ahh...it's not fair, but it's true...life.

 

[Law2Doc]

Speaking to current Harvard med students, they say that the name DOES take you far. They laugh at students who score well on the boards, but come from non-ivy/non-big name schools because these HARVARD kids can do mediocre on the boards and still get into an even better residency.

You might get a different story from folks a few years further down the road than "current med students", particularly those in the basement of their class. If you tank the boards, you are not going to get a better residency, regardless of what your school is. Also folks tend to have a lot of school pride, leading to biased and not particularly accurate responses.

 

[Plastikos]

Sure, but its not really the same. There are only 120 some odd med schools with a very finite number of seats. There are many many multiples that many undergrads. There is likely a more appreciable difference between the most and least prestigious undergrad than med school. Thus since the med school universe is so much more finite, the range from top to bottom is smaller, and likely perceived that way by residency directors. I'm basing this on the fact that the top school's graduates don't get all the top residencies -- check out the thread on match lists and you will see that folks from everywhere match anywhere. A great board score will take you much farther than the school name.

You have to face it, name ALWAYS makes a difference. Its not insurmountable, and the names will change somewhat depending on your chosesn field, but youd be foolish to believe that a Harvard/Yale/Johns Hopkins doesnt get you things the exact same person from XSUSOM would not. Foolish. The world is a huge old boys club that just gets smaller the higher up you go. Also, you have to think about when you graduate, most lay people are very ignorant as to what the best schools are for x specialty, etc...So a degree from a BIG name will convey incredible marketability, especially if you end up not practicing medicine your whole life.

 

[Plastikos]

Although in general I agree more with Law2Doc's sentiments, I concede this point to the prestige crowd. If you want to do hot-shot research, do policy work, or build a Rolodex full of important colleagues, then reputation will help you.


However, after a certain point, I think prestige rapidly deteriorates as useful measure, especially for the fluctuation in funding issues addressed. Where does this decay begin? Probably after the first twenty, possibly even ten, schools. Beyond them, you shouldn't look at the numerical rankings so much as group schools under categories that are important to you: location, curriculum design, cost, research facilities, goals to serve certain segments of the population, etc.

Thats an important point, especially since after the most people wont know the difference between WashU and OHSU. Its all about perspective, it doesnt make it true or right, but thats the way it is. Medicine is very subjective and you will be wronged at times b/c of it, so you better get used to it.

 

[TheMightyAngus]

How important is the reputation of a med school?

To me, I think its most important that students recieve excellent hands-on clinical experience (so they can be good/excellent residents) in a variety of fields (so they know which specialty to enter, and also have an understanding, if not appreciation, of other specialities).

But as for name recognition of the school, how important is it? For NYC schools, say Columbia vs NYU vs Downstate for example.

And will it make more of a difference if one does a combined degree, like an MPH, and would like to do clinical research, advocate certain public health policies, or other things than just practice medicine?

Keep in mind that some residency programs only look for people that are MD/PhD, others require AOA, astronomical board scores, or a degree from a prestigious medical school with LOR's from well known faculty to get an interview.

Since many residency programs only accept a handful of graduates each year, while where you went to med school does matter, it isn't nearly as important as how well you do individually.

 

[Albert Einstein]

i just wanted to note that you all have handled this topic in a professional, non-confrontational way - making very good arguments along the way. when i saw this thread i thought it was going to be a typical SDN fight.

i agree with all your points, by the way. if that any makes sense.

 

[Plastikos]

i just wanted to note that you all have handled this topic in a professional, non-confrontational way - making very good arguments along the way. when i saw this thread i thought it was going to be a typical SDN fight.

i agree with all your points, by the way. if that any makes sense.

It does, part of what sucks about medicine.

 

[Law2Doc]

The world is a huge old boys club that just gets smaller the higher up you go. Also, you have to think about when you graduate, most lay people are very ignorant as to what the best schools are for x specialty, etc...So a degree from a BIG name will convey incredible marketability, especially if you end up not practicing medicine your whole life.

Coming from another profession I can assure you that there are quite a few variations on the old boys club, and the ivies really don't have the monopoly on it. In law, regional school graduates at big law firms often hired "their own" far more voraciously than some of the ivies, and big state school grads do this too. Thus you would see big pockets of second tier school grads at lots of prestigious places. I suspect (and have heard that) some choice medical practices work similarly.
As I said before, all things being equal, the better name place will help. But all things are never equal. I would take a top board score over a Harvard/Hopkins degree any day. But that's my own 2 cents.

 

[represent_CV]

i think we've agreed that a 'top board score' will pretty much trump being in the 'basement' of one's class. my point is that it is important to realize that the majority of the people that are not at the extremes will benefit greatly by school name if we're talking top 10 or even top 20 -- in other words, i agree with drchekhov that if we're not talking top 10 or even top 20, go to the school where you'll be most comfortable and do the best

also, doesn't anyone think that there is a correlation between a top medical school and the quality of your education/experience as seen through board scores. in other words, isn't it possible that a higher ranked medical school will prepare a student better for the boards for reasons such as more funding for better teachers, smaller faculty:student ratio, videotaped lectures, more resources, private tutors, etc....????

 

[Depakote]

Ranking couldn't mean less to me.

Reputation has some value, but you have to consider who the reputation lies with, most people just recognize names and assume they're good schools/bad schools.

meh. I'm just going to go to a school I know will be a good fit.

 

[Law2Doc]

also, doesn't anyone think that there is a correlation between a top medical school and the quality of your education/experience as seen through board scores. in other words, isn't it possible that a higher ranked medical school will prepare a student better for the boards for reasons such as more funding for better teachers, smaller faculty:student ratio, videotaped lectures, more resources, private tutors, etc....????

I somewhat question this - Some of the nicest facilities I have seen were at non-top 20 schools. I think some of the big name places spend their money in the labs, not the classrooms. Some state schools have much better access to things like cadavers than the privates. Most schools these days -- big name or not, are on board with videotaped lectures/AVIs, lots of computerization- that's true for med schools in general. Also while the higher ranked schools definitely tend to attract bigger named physicians, these folks are reportedly frequently good clinicians but awful classroom teachers -- thus they don't help much with the first two years, board prep, etc though might be helpful resources for the school during clinical years, LORs for residencies, etc.

 

[beetlerum]

I think one thing you allude to, which is absolutely correct, is that the benefit of reputation drops off very quickly. Premeds may distinguish between the school ranked 23 and the school ranked 46, but there's probably little extra reputational benefit to the former. I think once you get past the top 10-15, you should choose on other factors.

Edit: I have no idea what school is ranked 23 and what school 46, not trying to take a swipe at anyone's dream school 🙂

i think we've agreed that a 'top board score' will pretty much trump being in the 'basement' of one's class. my point is that it is important to realize that the majority of the people that are not at the extremes will benefit greatly by school name if we're talking top 10 or even top 20 -- in other words, i agree with drchekhov that if we're not talking top 10 or even top 20, go to the school where you'll be most comfortable and do the best

also, doesn't anyone think that there is a correlation between a top medical school and the quality of your education/experience as seen through board scores. in other words, isn't it possible that a higher ranked medical school will prepare a student better for the boards for reasons such as more funding for better teachers, smaller faculty:student ratio, videotaped lectures, more resources, private tutors, etc....????