How important is school in getting residency?

[vjenniee]

Hello everyone! first of all, congratulations on acceptances and for those you are applying this cycle, good luck!. I have been accepted to Midwestern 2022, and was dying to get accepted, but now having second thought... As I am planning to do residency after vet school, I'm now worried that it will be hard for me to get it if I graduate from Midwestern (as it is so new, unranked, etc.) I know that Midwestern got full accreditation this year but I am unsure. Does school matter when getting a job or residency after graduation??

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[SkiOtter]

Hello everyone! first of all, congratulations on acceptances and for those you are applying this cycle, good luck!. I have been accepted to Midwestern 2022, and was dying to get accepted, but now having second thought... As I am planning to do residency after vet school, I'm now worried that it will be hard for me to get it if I graduate from Midwestern (as it is so new, unranked, etc.) I know that Midwestern got full accreditation this year but I am unsure. Does school matter when getting a job or residency after graduation??

RANKING DOES NOT MATTER. you can go to any vet school, get a great education, and then get a residency. Keep your grades as high as you can and network.

 

[KCgophervet]

We ranked an applicant from Midwestern pretty highly this year. The school did not impact our decisions in the slightest so long as they were accredited.

 

[SocialStigma]

I'm on the internship committee and have been involved with reviewing residency candidate applications. After screening candidates to make sure they graduated from AVMA accredited schools, we didn't look to see which vet school they graduated from.

 

[vjenniee]

I'm on the internship committee and have been involved with reviewing residency candidate applications. After screening candidates to make sure they graduated from AVMA accredited schools, we didn't look to see which vet school they graduated from.

Thank you for the reply!

 

[vjenniee]

We ranked an applicant from Midwestern pretty highly this year. The school did not impact our decisions in the slightest so long as they were accredited.

Thank you for the help!

 

[JaynaAli]

Like the others, I also had an applicant from Midwestern to my program this year. Aside from a comment from the residency coordinator that they weren't familiar with the program and what the quality of their pathology education was, it was not an issue. It didn't affect that person's ranking with us and ae still interviewed the person.

 

[Lab Vet]

Keep your grades as high as you can and network.

Important. Don't underestimate the importance of networking, history/evidence of sustained interest in the field of specialization, and LORs from faculty who know both you (preferably, as a student, clinician, and human being) AND faculty on the other side of the admissions decision.

 

[Golden Eagle 12]

Hey, I'm a current student at Midwestern (just finished second year). I understand the concerns you have, since I also want to specialize after graduation and had many of the same questions regarding how a new school would effect our chances. That said, members of the class of 2018 did well in matching into internships and residencies, so don't worry about the newness of the program potentially holding you back.

 

[Vannandy]

As many have mentioned before ranking doesn't matter. Heck, as a student at St. George's University (Caribbean) we sometimes get a backhanded "oh" even though we've been accredited longer than some schools in the states. As long as it's an AVMA accredited school it matters little where you graduated from (A sentiment expressed to me in a conversation by a member of the AVMA accreditation site visit team.)

For residencies what does matter is to an extent grades and more importantly your experiences and connections. To my understanding, for internships class rank/grades are considered a bit more than in residency applications since you haven't had the chance to demonstrate your clinical abilities. My advice would be to try to keep up your grades and put yourself out there to be the most competitive applicant should you stick with your goals of pursuing a residency.

 

[vjenniee]

that is such a relief!

Hey, I'm a current student at Midwestern (just finished second year). I understand the concerns you have, since I also want to specialize after graduation and had many of the same questions regarding how a new school would effect our chances. That said, members of the class of 2018 did well in matching into internships and residencies, so don't worry about the newness of the program potentially holding you back.

Since the school did not really provide the stats of the graduates, I was wondering about this! This really helps! thank you so much

Like the others, I also had an applicant from Midwestern to my program this year. Aside from a comment from the residency coordinator that they weren't familiar with the program and what the quality of their pathology education was, it was not an issue. It didn't affect that person's ranking with us and ae still interviewed the person.

 

[vjenniee]

As many have mentioned before ranking doesn't matter. Heck, as a student at St. George's University (Caribbean) we sometimes get a backhanded "oh" even though we've been accredited longer than some schools in the states. As long as it's an AVMA accredited school it matters little where you graduated from (A sentiment expressed to me in a conversation by a member of the AVMA accreditation site visit team.)

For residencies what does matter is to an extent grades and more importantly your experiences and connections. To my understanding, for internships class rank/grades are considered a bit more than in residency applications since you haven't had the chance to demonstrate your clinical abilities. My advice would be to try to keep up your grades and put yourself out there to be the most competitive applicant should you stick with your goals of pursuing a residency.

yes i feel you! I always get that response from ppl too,

 

[Penelope Renee]

Hey there! Congrats on being accepted to MWU! I just graduated from Midwestern as part of the inaugural class and like many others in my class, was accepted to my #1 choice for an academic internship. My goal is to pursue a small animal surgery residency, and have been working towards this since the first day of vet school. Like others above stated, it was my grades, letters of recommendations, and networking that led me to being selected. I interviewed with numerous schools and private practices and most were excited and interested to hear why I chose Midwestern and what I thought about the program. Coming from a new program I strategized during my clinical year and rotated through places that I was possibly interested in completing an internship at. You still have time, but when it gets close to planning out clinical year, sit down with a faculty mentor and ask them questions about places they recommend. Feel free to message me if you have any questions or concerns! Once again congrats! I loved Midwestern and I hope you will too!

 

[hygebeorht]

TBH some of the best doctors I have worked with came from the Caribbean or other traditionally "lesser-than" schools. So you are good there.

Do you know what kind of residency you are interested in? On the pro side, Midwestern allows you to basically do all externships so you can meet many badass specialists and get the hookup for recommendations. On the con side, private practices aren't built for the kind of teaching you can get in a teaching hospital.

 

[Penelope Renee]

TBH some of the best doctors I have worked with came from the Caribbean or other traditionally "lesser-than" schools. So you are good there.

Do you know what kind of residency you are interested in? On the pro side, Midwestern allows you to basically do all externships so you can meet many badass specialists and get the hookup for recommendations. On the con side, private practices aren't built for the kind of teaching you can get in a teaching hospital.

Just FYI Midwestern has a very large teaching hospital and students are required to do more than half of their rotations at the teaching hospital. After that students can choose between off-campus or the teaching hospital for the remaining elective rotations. I honestly think it’s the perfect combination of having the structure of the teaching hospital but the freedom to make connections with specialists (and primary care doctors) outside of school.

 

[hygebeorht]

Oh cool, NVM! Thanks for the correction. I see your point about best of both worlds.

 

[DVMDream]

Just FYI Midwestern has a very large teaching hospital and students are required to do more than half of their rotations at the teaching hospital. After that students can choose between off-campus or the teaching hospital for the remaining elective rotations. I honestly think it’s the perfect combination of having the structure of the teaching hospital but the freedom to make connections with specialists (and primary care doctors) outside of school.

They are still missing a LOT of specialties including ER/overnight critical care. As a vet in the region, I have called over there to see if they will take an ER patient to be told "we don't provide that service", so they at least are needing to filter students out for ER/critical care experience. That is only one of the specialties they are missing. At least at this time, if someone attends Midwestern, I would strongly urge them to take those second half of the rotations and get them elsewhere. They are trying to fill in those gaps, I see the job postings everywhere, but for now, they are still developing certain things.

 

[Penelope Renee]

They are still missing a LOT of specialties including ER/overnight critical care. As a vet in the region, I have called over there to see if they will take an ER patient to be told "we don't provide that service", so they at least are needing to filter students out for ER/critical care experience. That is only one of the specialties they are missing. At least at this time, if someone attends Midwestern, I would strongly urge them to take those second half of the rotations and get them elsewhere. They are trying to fill in those gaps, I see the job postings everywhere, but for now, they are still developing certain things.

Yes Midwestern is a new school (just graduated the first class) so of course they are still developing. ER/ICU is a required rotation that all students at Midwestern have to take. Yes our ER department is not 24hr/7days a week, but we are constantly seeing emergencies throughout the day when the clinic is open. I’ve personally been at the clinic up until the early hours of the morning doing a solo pyometra or diagnosing an addisonian crisis after being called to the front to triage a collapsed patient. I’m sure based on staffing and hours we’ve turned away cases which isn’t the real world, so if people are interested in emergency and critical care they most definitely should rotate at an outside emergency clinic. Overall we have amazing clinicians and BUSY specialty services and students experience what it’s like to learn at a teaching hospital. Midwestern wants to give students the ability to customize their clinical year and focus on rotations that will make them the clinician they want to be.

 

[DVMDream]

Yes Midwestern is a new school (just graduated the first class) so of course they are still developing. ER/ICU is a required rotation that all students at Midwestern have to take. Yes our ER department is not 24hr/7days a week, but we are constantly seeing emergencies throughout the day when the clinic is open. I’ve personally been at the clinic up until the early hours of the morning doing a solo pyometra or diagnosing an addisonian crisis after being called to the front to triage a collapsed patient. I’m sure based on staffing and hours we’ve turned away cases which isn’t the real world, so if people are interested in emergency and critical care they most definitely should rotate at an outside emergency clinic. Overall we have amazing clinicians and BUSY specialty services and students experience what it’s like to learn at a teaching hospital. Midwestern wants to give students the ability to customize their clinical year and focus on rotations that will make them the clinician they want to be.

This is kind of my point thought. That at least for the time being, vet students at Midwestern should get outside experience to actually get a realistic view of ER/critical care. When a vet in the community calls up to get a patient in significant distress addressed immediately and I get told "we don't do that here", it really doesn't leave a great view of what the students are learning/what are they actually seeing on "ER" if they can't handle this case (and no it wasn't the end of the day, quite the opposite). Instead, I drove the client out to another emergency clinic that was further away so that patient could get the care needed. In order to be a proper critical care clinic and to get that experience, it really does need to be open 24/7, there is no other way to do critical care, as they do need around the clock care.

Not to mention, the missing ophthalmology, dentistry, dermatology and cardiologists just by viewing the current doctors on the Midwestern website. And, yes, I know you guys do provide dentals and have dental services but you do not have a board-certified dentist so anyone interested in that, at this time, will need to look elsewhere. As well as anyone interested in any of the other specialties listed.

I am not saying it is "bad", just the school is new and still developing so students do need to take that into consideration and be prepared to get experiences elsewhere. At least the school has the availability for students to do that.

 

[DVMDream]

Oh and radiologists. No boarded radiologists.

 

[Caiter92]

To be fair, we don’t have dentistry or derm at our VTH either. We have a 24/7 ECC/ICU, but it’s not always busy. We have a satellite derm clinic an hour and a half away that you can do rotations at, and can go to the closest major city 5 hours away for a dentistry rotation. But that’s because we’re pretty rural and we just can’t support certain services.

Other schools don’t have cardiologists or radiologists either (IL and KSU I think?), so I don’t think needing to get experience else where is reserved just for a newer school like MWU.

 

[battie]

Oh and radiologists. No boarded radiologists.

UIUC doesn't currently have one either (though I think we're supposed to get one soonish....). From what I've heard from fourth year friends, the imaging rotation is a waste of time, even for the people who try to make the best of it.

If I remember correctly, a ton of schools don't have a boarded radiologist cause they're making more living that referral life.

 

[Penelope Renee]

This is kind of my point thought. That at least for the time being, vet students at Midwestern should get outside experience to actually get a realistic view of ER/critical care. When a vet in the community calls up to get a patient in significant distress addressed immediately and I get told "we don't do that here", it really doesn't leave a great view of what the students are learning/what are they actually seeing on "ER" if they can't handle this case (and no it wasn't the end of the day, quite the opposite). Instead, I drove the client out to another emergency clinic that was further away so that patient could get the care needed. In order to be a proper critical care clinic and to get that experience, it really does need to be open 24/7, there is no other way to do critical care, as they do need around the clock care.

Not to mention, the missing ophthalmology, dentistry, dermatology and cardiologists just by viewing the current doctors on the Midwestern website. And, yes, I know you guys do provide dentals and have dental services but you do not have a board-certified dentist so anyone interested in that, at this time, will need to look elsewhere. As well as anyone interested in any of the other specialties listed.

I am not saying it is "bad", just the school is new and still developing so students do need to take that into consideration and be prepared to get experiences elswehere. At least the school has that availability for students to do that.

Our clinical year is pretty unique in that it’s 34 weeks of required on campus rotations and 30 weeks elective rotations. So like you said students need to go to outside places to learn more, but that is their goal. They want students to be able choose what specialties they rotate through, and that is why we are given 30 weeks of elective rotations.

The mission of Midwestern University is to create “day one ready vets”. So at the teaching hospital, the main focus is general practice. If a student chooses the small animal track, they spend 4 months rotating through general practice at the teaching hospital. During their time on general practice students perform routine surgeries, dental procedures (tons!!), manage infectious, emergency, dermatology, ophthalmology, cardiology, respiratory, endocrinology, as well as routine preventative medicine cases. So students can choose to go to a specialist if they have an area of interest, but 4 months on primary care gives students a ton of exposure to a wide variety of cases. I’m not saying those 4 months should take the place of rotating through a specialty service, just that our students get unique exposure to these cases as a general practicitioner. Students learn how to manage and work-up these cases before referring it- what most of the students will have to do when they are out working. Specialists tend to see the crazy, once in a lifetime cases and Midwestern wants students to have more exposure to the every day cases and how to manage these cases if owners don’t want to or can’t afford to see a specialist.

On the ER/ICU rotation I did things I would be able to manage as a general practitioner- cut pyos, wound care, hospitalize and manage parvo patients/DKA/repsiratory distress, etc. We do take on true emergency cases though and we don’t turn away anything that walks in, so I don’t know what the situation was that they wouldn’t see your patient. Either way, I’m not sure if Midwestern will ever have a fully functioning ER/ICU because once again, that’s not really their goal.

 

[DVMDream]

UIUC doesn't currently have one either (though I think we're supposed to get one soonish....). From what I've heard from fourth year friends, the imaging rotation is a waste of time, even for the people who try to make the best of it.

If I remember correctly, a ton of schools don't have a boarded radiologist cause they're making more living that referral life.

I mean, there are schools missing 1 or 2 certain areas, but not 4+. That's the point I'm making. Very easy to pick up that 1 missing specialty, gets harder when you have 4, 5 or more to find elsewhere.

 

[battie]

It's interesting to see how different schools do 4th year. UIUC does 52 weeks from March to March and 6 weeks of PD (concentrated area of study basically) from March to May. @pinkpuppy9 can correct me if I'm wrong, but nearly all of those are on-site, especially now that they've revamped 4th year. And 4th years the last several years haven't gotten their schedules until weeks to days before clinics were to start; scheduling off campus seems to be a free for all with a lot of luck thrown in. I couldn't imagine scheduling 30 weeks off campus.

 

[DVMDream]

On the ER/ICU rotation I did things I would be able to manage as a general practitioner- cut pyos, wound care, hospitalize and manage parvo patients/DKA/repsiratory distress, etc. We do take on true emergency cases though and we don’t turn away anything that walks in, so I don’t know what the situation was that they wouldn’t see your patient. Either way, I’m not sure if Midwestern will ever have a fully functioning ER/ICU because once again, that’s not really their goal.

Parvo, yes, you probably can as a GP, but again, if you hospitalize there is no one to monitor overnight and while not "ideal" we do it often. Pyo, you may or may not be able to cut depending on your schedule. Wound care, again, depends on your schedule and the extent of the wound whether or not you can actually deal with it during your busy GP day. A respiratory distress case should be monitored 24/7, not something you should be "managing" in the GP-land, you can stabilize it, but it should be punted on to a 24/7 facility. DKA also needs or should have 24/7 care, GPs don't have overnight staffing to monitor the fluids on these patients and to get regular BG's, these can go south fast and shouldn't be placed in a kennel on IV's overnight without monitoring.

The thing is, in GP, you often can stabilize these ER cases, but they will need to be referred out. Also, you have to remember that anytime you stop to see an emergency you are making other clients wait, which can cause people to become angry. I have lost clients seeing emergencies on GP because they get upset waiting. Is it any great loss? probably not. But I could see the frustration of a client if every time they come to their GP, their GP is inundated with emergencies. And that is part of being a GP, recognizing what you realistically can and can't see at any particular point of time depending on your schedule, staff available and supplies/equipment.

It is quite a different balancing act once you add in the aspect of having a GP schedule on top of emergencies coming in.

So while it seems easy to "manage" the above cases as a GP, it really isn't and often is not ideal. So what you may have been able to do on your ER rotation, you won't be able to once you toss in regular appointments that you also have to address.

I sure as hell hope Midwestern decides to get a fully functioning ER/ICU, but that is just my opinion. A Day 1 vet should have had exposure to all the specialties so that they have some idea of what things can be provided to clients. There are things I learned we can do on specialty rotation that I had no idea existed, but now I can explain to my clients even in general practice. I do think it is important we get exposure to these things. I will never do cataract surgery, but having seen the surgery and helped with the patient, I can explain the process to a client and the potential complications after and help guide them to that decision. That is just one example.

 

[Penelope Renee]

I mean, there are schools missing 1 or 2 certain areas, but not 4+. That's the point I'm making. Very easy to pick up that 1 missing specialty, gets harder when you have 4, 5 or more to find elsewhere.

Not if you have 30 weeks of elective rotations. And the school has relationships with all of these specialties (with a lot being in the valley) so it's easy for students to set them up.

I'm just trying to provide more information about the program, because I feel that many are misinformed or have no idea about it. Having just completed my clinical year, including rotations to other vet schools, I was extremely happy with the clinical knowledge and experience gained.

 

[DVMDream]

Not if you have 30 weeks of elective rotations. And the school has relationships with all of these specialties (with a lot being in the valley) so it's easy for students to set them up.

I have stated twice (this time now three), I am glad to see the school leaves open plenty of time for students to actually get rotations in the fields in which they do not provide at the school.

 

[Lab Vet]

Our clinical year is pretty unique in that it’s 34 weeks of required on campus rotations and 30 weeks elective rotations. So like you said students need to go to outside places to learn more, but that is their goal. They want students to be able choose what specialties they rotate through, and that is why we are given 30 weeks of elective rotations.

The mission of Midwestern University is to create “day one ready vets”. So at the teaching hospital, the main focus is general practice. If a student chooses the small animal track, they spend 4 months rotating through general practice at the teaching hospital. During their time on general practice students perform routine surgeries, dental procedures (tons!!), manage infectious, emergency, dermatology, ophthalmology, cardiology, respiratory, endocrinology, as well as routine preventative medicine cases. So students can choose to go to a specialist if they have an area of interest, but 4 months on primary care gives students a ton of exposure to a wide variety of cases. I’m not saying those 4 months should take the place of rotating through a specialty service, just that our students get unique exposure to these cases as a general practicitioner. Students learn how to manage and work-up these cases before referring it- what most of the students will have to do when they are out working. Specialists tend to see the crazy, once in a lifetime cases and Midwestern wants students to have more exposure to the every day cases and how to manage these cases if owners don’t want to or can’t afford to see a specialist.

On the ER/ICU rotation I did things I would be able to manage as a general practitioner- cut pyos, wound care, hospitalize and manage parvo patients/DKA/repsiratory distress, etc. We do take on true emergency cases though and we don’t turn away anything that walks in, so I don’t know what the situation was that they wouldn’t see your patient. Either way, I’m not sure if Midwestern will ever have a fully functioning ER/ICU because once again, that’s not really their goal.

Just curious, how do the Midwestern students afford 30 weeks off-site? I traveled across the country for my 8 weeks of off-site rotations, and the process costed a fortune (not just in air travel, but also lodging and associated expenses). 30 weeks off-site sounds like a very expensive proposition. I'm just curious how students handle the costs. Hope all goes well with the internship

 

[Penelope Renee]

Just curious, how do the Midwestern students afford 30 weeks off-site? I traveled across the country for my 8 weeks of off-site rotations, and the process costed a fortune (not just on air travel, but also lodging and associated expenses). 30 weeks off-site sounds like a very expensive proposition. I'm just curious how students handle the costs. Hope all goes well with the internship

Thanks!

Yeah I can imagine it could cost a lot, but luckily being located in Phoenix there are a lot of speciality hospitals that we have formed relationships with. Because of those relationships, students can get away with doing all (or at least most) of the rotations without traveling. What a lot of students end up doing, is scheduling rotations close to home so they can stay with family. I am fortunate to have grandparents that live in West LA. This allowed me (and a classmate) to rotate through specialty hospitals in LA and I got to spend time with family. Some people even lumped their elective weeks and moved back home altogether. I have a friend who is from Boston, and she was able to move back home in March and the remaining rotations from March through May were in the Boston area. And maybe it's because we are such a close class, but people stayed with other classmates or even faculty's friends and family. I ended up making two big trips to two universities and it did cost me a lot, but I'm almost certain it's how I got my internship, so it was definitely worth it!

 

[Lab Vet]

Thanks!

Yeah I can imagine it could cost a lot, but luckily being located in Phoenix there are a lot of speciality hospitals that we have formed relationships with. Because of those relationships, students can get away with doing all (or at least most) of the rotations without traveling. What a lot of students end up doing, is scheduling rotations close to home so they can stay with family. I am fortunate to have grandparents that live in West LA. This allowed me (and a classmate) to rotate through specialty hospitals in LA and I got to spend time with family. Some people even lumped their elective weeks and moved back home altogether. I have a friend who is from Boston, and she was able to move back home in March and the remaining rotations from March through May were in the Boston area. And maybe it's because we are such a close class, but people stayed with other classmates or even faculty's friends and family. I ended up making two big trips to two universities and it did cost me a lot, but I'm almost certain it's how I got my internship, so it was definitely worth it!

Thanks for your prompt response to my inquiry. I'm glad that things worked out so well for you. I would, however, caution individuals considering Midwestern that they may not be so fortunate when it comes to financing off-site rotations. Prospective students *generally* have no idea what they're getting into as a pre-vet when it comes to financing off-site travel as a fourth year. Not all disciplines will have rotation sites located in close proximity to their home address, and not all students have family/friends/connections to stay with (in general, or close to rotation sites). Subleases don't always work out, and students are on the hook for financing their home address as well as living expenses wherever they travel. Also- what about students with pets? I am single and have a dog. Sometimes, it's just not possible to have friends or family look after your pets (these people are also traveling in order to obtain experience). Fourth year travel is a significant expense in addition to tuition that individuals considering this school (every school, actually) should definitely factor in when making their decision. I, personally, could not have afforded Midwestern's requirement. Fourth year almost broke my bank account as it was with 8 weeks of travel- I can't imagine having to have financed 30. As you mentioned, it's of critical importance that students committed to the pursuit of advanced training travel to sites and demonstrate their interest. These sites may not be anywhere near the location of the veterinary school, and if students aren't fortunate enough to have connections in those key locations, they're on the hook for the cash. That's a very tough situation. I don't envy those folks. Again, no disrespect to Midwestern. I personally could not have afforded this requirement.

 

[Trilt]

Parvo, yes, you probably can as a GP, but again, if you hospitalize there is no one to monitor overnight and while not "ideal" we do it often. Pyo, you may or may not be able to cut depending on your schedule. Wound care, again, depends on your schedule and the extent of the wound whether or not you can actually deal with it during your busy GP day. A respiratory distress case should be monitored 24/7, not something you should be "managing" in the GP-land, you can stabilize it, but it should be punted on to a 24/7 facility. DKA also needs or should have 24/7 care, GPs don't have overnight staffing to monitor the fluids on these patients and to get regular BG's, these can go south fast and shouldn't be placed in a kennel on IV's overnight without monitoring.

Meh. Depending on where you work, you very well may be dealing with all of these things in GP. Referral is not an option for the vast majority of my clients, and there is no emergency clinic open during the day within an hour of my workplace. I manage respiratory distress and parvo and pyos and DKAs and all sort of stuff in a ridiculously less than ideal situation all the time, because the estimate for care at the specialty facilities an hour away would mean the dogs just get euthanized. Different worlds. I'm glad Midwestern is exposing people to this side of things while also having venues for them to see the specialty side of things via off-campus rotations.

 

[Penelope Renee]

Thanks for your prompt response to my inquiry. I'm glad that things worked out so well for you. I would, however, caution individuals considering Midwestern that they may not be so fortunate when it comes to financing off-site rotations. Prospective students *generally* have no idea what they're getting into as a pre-vet when it comes to financing off-site travel as a fourth year. Not all disciplines will have rotation sites located in close proximity to their home address, and not all students have family/friends/connections to stay with (in general, or close to rotation sites). Subleases don't always work out, and students are on the hook for financing their home address as well as living expenses wherever they travel. Also- what about students with pets? I am single and have a dog. Sometimes, it's just not possible to have friends or family look after your pets (these people are also traveling in order to obtain experience). Fourth year travel is a significant expense in addition to tuition that individuals considering this school (every school, actually) should definitely factor in when making their decision. I, personally, could not have afforded Midwestern's requirement. Fourth year almost broke my bank account as it was with 8 weeks of travel- I can't imagine having to have financed 30. As you mentioned, it's of critical importance that students committed to the pursuit of advanced training travel to sites and demonstrate their interest. These sites may not be anywhere near the location of the veterinary school, and if students aren't fortunate enough to have connections in those key locations, they're on the hook for the cash. That's a very tough situation. I don't envy those folks. Again, no disrespect to Midwestern. I personally could not have afforded this requirement.

Those are all things that applicants need to take into consideration. But if students don't want to travel they really don't have to. The only time people chose to travel was to visit family or if they felt that the rotation was vital to their future success (future job/internship/residency). For me personally, I knew by the end of second year that I would be wanting to travel for clinical year and budgeted accordingly.

 

[DVMDream]

Meh. Depending on where you work, you very well may be dealing with all of these things in GP. Referral is not an option for the vast majority of my clients, and there is no emergency clinic open during the day within an hour of my workplace. I manage respiratory distress and parvo and pyos and DKAs and all sort of stuff in a ridiculously less than ideal situation all the time, because the estimate for care at the specialty facilities an hour away would mean the dogs just get euthanized. Different worlds. I'm glad Midwestern is exposing people to this side of things while also having venues for them to see the specialty side of things via off-campus rotations.

You also have a fully staffed clinic. You aren't 1 tech, 1 doctor trying to save the world. Which makes a world of difference. Context matters. Where you work matters.

I didn't say you couldn't manage these things. I said it was not ideal. Which is exactly what you are saying here as well. Heck, a lot of the GP's around here are just as expensive as ER. So I send them over because they aren't going to save much (if anything) by staying with me and often I will send them there anyway. I have dealt with respiratory distress but you can't tell me that it isn't better for them to be monitored 24/7 and many cases of respiratory distress should not be sitting without monitoring. A number of respiratory distress cases I will actually tell the owner if they can't go to ER then they need to euthanize to prevent needless suffering of their pet staying not monitored at my GP overnight and taking them home is not an option. Not to mention the lack of oxygen kennel at my clinic and the lack of a supply of oxygen that would actually last overnight. Kind of important things.

Parvo is a bit easier as once you get them settled with catheter, fluids and meds it is (mostly) basic nursing care after that. But when you have one tech, these patients tend to get neglected with their treatments. I can't tell you how many times I had to force staff to stop and go back to treat a hospitalized pet because otherwise, that pet would not get care. I have left parvo overnight without monitoring and most of them do fine, but that isn't without risk and if you have 24/7 monitoring available and don't offer it, you could be looking at board violation (yes the board here will get onto you for that). Yes, I will always offer best medicine.

Again, I can see a DKA, but I am not going to keep it unsupervised in my clinic overnight. Not even going to apologize on that. All it takes is that glucose getting too low overnight, seizure and gone. It doesn't take much for these to go south in a hurry and there are so many ways in which they can go south that it isn't worth it.

This brings me back to directly what I stated before. Part of being a GP is knowing what your clinic, your staff, your clients will tolerate, what management will tolerate, etc prior to just seeing whatever emergency calls us on the phone. Having the wherewithal to say "no we can not handle that at this time" is just as, if not more important, than managing the above cases. The other thing is that saying "no we can't handle that pyo right now" does NOT mean that they have to go to ER. We will recommend ER over another GP first, but we have many sister clinics and other clinics in the area that were better set up to handle these emergencies. So we gave multiple options. However a respiratory distress, hit by car or anything else that is going to need more extensive care than a day clinic can provide, I am going to recommend them to ER every time. (Remember the strongest pain control my clinic had was buprenorphine and a HBC, dog bite wound and really most traumas deserve much better than that).

I'm glad Midwestern is exposing people to this side of things too, but it sounds like she saw these cases on ER, not on GP, which means she was not balancing out a pyo, a parvo puppy, a dog bite wound, and a respiratory distress all while having appointments show up every 30 minutes. This is what a vet school really needs to show and they also need to show when it is ok to say "no we can not do all of that." Of course I could manage a pyo, wounds, a parvo and respiratory distress rather easily and all at once if I didn't also have every 30 minute appointments showing up and a deadline of 5:30PM and "don't keep staff late because we can't pay them overtime."

You have a much, much different GP experience than I do and I think you largely forget that.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

UIUC doesn't currently have one either (though I think we're supposed to get one soonish....). From what I've heard from fourth year friends, the imaging rotation is a waste of time, even for the people who try to make the best of it.

If I remember correctly, a ton of schools don't have a boarded radiologist cause they're making more living that referral life.

They're having an off-site person call in to give rounds or something...but essentially all we do is restrain for ultrasound and rads (interestingly, they're paying underclassmen to do the same thing alongside 4th years right now...). My class is the first to be allowed to do imaging off campus, so that's what most of us are doing (which has screwed up the imaging service, hence the hiring of students to do the patient fetching/holding).

It's interesting to see how different schools do 4th year. UIUC does 52 weeks from March to March and 6 weeks of PD (concentrated area of study basically) from March to May. @pinkpuppy9 can correct me if I'm wrong, but nearly all of those are on-site, especially now that they've revamped 4th year. And 4th years the last several years haven't gotten their schedules until weeks to days before clinics were to start; scheduling off campus seems to be a free for all with a lot of luck thrown in. I couldn't imagine scheduling 30 weeks off campus.

Yep, most are onsite. We get up to 8 blocks of electives off campus, but you can really only get the full 8 off campus if you're a food animal person (it's screwy).

The 6 weeks of PD can be whatever you want though. I know someone who is doing another externship for her PD.

Illinois has a lot of the specialties covered which is nice. My only real complaint thus far is that we had zero contact with our ER/ECC boarded clinician. She doesn't actually spend time on the clinic floor, so we never rounded and covered common ER stuff (DKA, trauma, etc). Wasn't the best in terms of learning. We do still have a fully functional 24 hour/365 day ER/ICU.

 

[Trilt]

You also have a fully staffed clinic. You aren't 1 tech, 1 doctor trying to save the world. Which makes a world of difference. Context matters. Where you work matters.

I didn't say you couldn't manage these things. I said it was not ideal. Which is exactly what you are saying here as well. Heck, a lot of the GP's around here are just as expensive as ER. So I send them over because they aren't going to save much (if anything) by staying with me and often I will send them there anyway. I have dealt with respiratory distress but you can't tell me that it isn't better for them to be monitored 24/7 and many cases of respiratory distress should not be sitting without monitoring. A number of respiratory distress cases I will actually tell the owner if they can't go to ER then they need to euthanize to prevent needless suffering of their pet staying not monitored at my GP overnight and taking them home is not an option. Not to mention the lack of oxygen kennel at my clinic and the lack of a supply of oxygen that would actually last overnight. Kind of important things.

Parvo is a bit easier as once you get them settled with catheter, fluids and meds it is (mostly) basic nursing care after that. But when you have one tech, these patients tend to get neglected with their treatments. I can't tell you how many times I had to force staff to stop and go back to treat a hospitalized pet because otherwise, that pet would not get care. I have left parvo overnight without monitoring and most of them do fine, but that isn't without risk and if you have 24/7 monitoring available and don't offer it, you could be looking at board violation (yes the board here will get onto you for that). Yes, I will always offer best medicine.

Again, I can see a DKA, but I am not going to keep it unsupervised in my clinic overnight. Not even going to apologize on that. All it takes is that glucose getting too low overnight, seizure and gone. It doesn't take much for these to go south in a hurry and there are so many ways in which they can go south that it isn't worth it.

This brings me back to directly what I stated before. Part of being a GP is knowing what your clinic, your staff, your clients will tolerate, what management will tolerate, etc prior to just seeing whatever emergency calls us on the phone. Having the wherewithal to say "no we can not handle that at this time" is just as, if not more important, than managing the above cases. The other thing is that saying "no we can't handle that pyo right now" does NOT mean that they have to go to ER. We will recommend ER over another GP first, but we have many sister clinics and other clinics in the area that were better set up to handle these emergencies. So we gave multiple options. However a respiratory distress, hit by car or anything else that is going to need more extensive care than a day clinic can provide, I am going to recommend them to ER every time. (Remember the strongest pain control my clinic had was buprenorphine and a HBC, dog bite wound and really most traumas deserve much better than that).

I'm glad Midwestern is exposing people to this side of things too, but it sounds like she saw these cases on ER, not on GP, which means she was not balancing out a pyo, a parvo puppy, a dog bite wound, and a respiratory distress all while having appointments show up every 30 minutes. This is what a vet school really needs to show and they also need to show when it is ok to say "no we can not do all of that." Of course I could manage a pyo, wounds, a parvo and respiratory distress rather easily and all at once if I didn't also have every 30 minute appointments showing up and a deadline of 5:30PM and "don't keep staff late because we can't pay them overtime."

You have a much, much different GP experience than I do and I think you largely forget that.

I don't forget it. Your experience is valid, but mine is too. And of course they are not going to experience a GP practice exactly in school... it's a teaching facility. If they want to experience a GP, go hang out with a GP! I did that through vet school with a clinic that was nicer than my previous shadowing locations and use tips and tricks from that during practice regularly.

I would have loved to have experience treating emergencies that wasn't in a teaching hospital with 3, 4, 5k estimates right off the gun. Because I'm spending my time blending what I know from school with my boss' guidance and figuring out my own path by the seat of my pants and it would have been great to have some slightly more realistic experience of what GP vets can do prior to graduation.

I've left DKAs overnight on fluids. I tell owners it is non ideal, they're very sick, and they might die. Same thing with respiratory distress cases - they get put in an O2 cage and checked on, but we don't claim to be an emergency clinic. It's half assed but it gets a whole lot of them through their illness vs. euthanized because they don't have several thousand dollars that the specialty hospitals want.

And I picked my GP. I turned down higher paid offers and a less-horrible commute because I wanted to work in a clinic where we do almost everything and with multiple doctors. I specifically didn't apply to any clinics that would have me as a singleton doctor because that's not what I wanted. Anyone can do that when they're applying for jobs.

 

[DVMDream]

I don't forget it. Your experience is valid, but mine is too. And of course they are not going to experience a GP practice exactly in school... it's a teaching facility. If they want to experience a GP, go hang out with a GP! I did that through vet school with a clinic that was nicer than my previous shadowing locations and use tips and tricks from that during practice regularly.

I would have loved to have experience treating emergencies that wasn't in a teaching hospital with 3, 4, 5k estimates right off the gun. Because I'm spending my time blending what I know from school with my boss' guidance and figuring out my own path by the seat of my pants and it would have been great to have some slightly more realistic experience of what GP vets can do prior to graduation.

I've left DKAs overnight on fluids. I tell owners it is non ideal, they're very sick, and they might die. Same thing with respiratory distress cases - they get put in an O2 cage and checked on, but we don't claim to be an emergency clinic. It's half assed but it gets a whole lot of them through their illness vs. euthanized because they don't have several thousand dollars that the specialty hospitals want.

And I picked my GP. I turned down higher paid offers and a less-horrible commute because I wanted to work in a clinic where we do almost everything and with multiple doctors. I specifically didn't apply to any clinics that would have me as a singleton doctor because that's not what I wanted. Anyone can do that when they're applying for jobs.

Must be nice to have an oxygen cage. Again, this is what I mean by knowing what your clinic can handle vs what it should handle. I could see a respiratory distress patient as we had oxygen and masks. However, I shouldn't, knowing it can't stay with me long term. Knowing what is best for the patient is half the battle in this field. Then trying to placate the office manager/corporate for "not seeing that money".

The most difficult thing for a new vet is learning to say no whether that is to working 15 shifts in a row or to a respiratory distress case that you literally can't even evaluate for whatever reason. The most important thing to learn is when and how to say no and to not feel guilty about it.

Yeah, I also picked my first clinic because it had multiple vets. That lasted 3 months. It still had multiple vets, but we were spread out to accommodate for a vet leaving. Which landed me with no surgical training that per contract I would receive and regular alone shifts. There's nothing like learning vet med via crash course all alone. So, yes, I would advise any new grad to look for a clinic with multiple vets but be prepared to work alone too. And don't be afraid to say "no" if you really can't handle something else for whatever reason.