how important is your med school's ranking?

[jjy2103]

does it really matter what med school you go to in terms of where you will end up matching into?

or would it be purely based on board score and gpa?

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[Chief Resident]

does it really matter what med school you go to in terms of where you will end up matching into?

or would it be purely based on board score and gpa?

It matters, don't let anybody tell you otherwise. Look at the match lists from the best med schools and compare them to the lower ranking schools. Sure you'll always have the student from Timbuktu Med School with a 280 on his USMLE and two dozen first author publications matching into a residency like Neurosurgery at Mass General once every other decade, but in general the best med schools send their students to the best residencies. Program Directors of prestigious residencies have a thing for filling their residency roster with graduates of prestigious med schools.

 

[Law2Doc]

It matters, don't let anybody tell you otherwise. Look at the match lists from the best med schools and compare them to the lower ranking schools. Sure you'll always have the student from Timbuktu Med School with a 280 on his USMLE and two dozen first author publications matching into a residency like Neurosurgery at Mass General once every other decade, but in general the best med schools send their students to the best residencies. Program Directors of prestigious residencies have a thing for filling their residency roster with graduates of prestigious med schools.

You may be right, but you can't glean that data from match lists. A good match list could mean less about the school rank or prestige and how that is regarded by residency directors, and more about the students these med school admitted. If the top med school programs select a group of very smart individuals who also do extremely well on the boards, had lots of publications etc, the great match list wouldn't necessarilly mean that it was the school's rank/name that added anything to their success. (Meaning the students who went to eg. Harvard would have matched just as well if they went to a lesser school). To state that it outright "matters", you really would need to demonstrate that people who went to more prestigious schools and got the same or lower boards than their peers actually did better.

 

[ny skindoc]

It matters, don't let anybody tell you otherwise. Look at the match lists from the best med schools and compare them to the lower ranking schools. Sure you'll always have the student from Timbuktu Med School with a 280 on his USMLE and two dozen first author publications matching into a residency like Neurosurgery at Mass General once every other decade, but in general the best med schools send their students to the best residencies. Program Directors of prestigious residencies have a thing for filling their residency roster with graduates of prestigious med schools.

Its no doubt true that grads of the top 15-20 or so med schools tend to match at more prestigious residency programs.However once you get past that level in the "rankings" the match lists are quite similar.Differences are more due to geographic factors than anything else.For most applicants the choice is not between Penn or Columbia and a low ranked school.Its between an expensive private school (not in the top 15) and their state school.For such individuals the rank will count for little.Residency programs in the most competitive specialties are filled heavily with grads of "lower" ranked schools.

 

[hakksar]

It matters, don't let anybody tell you otherwise. Look at the match lists from the best med schools and compare them to the lower ranking schools. Sure you'll always have the student from Timbuktu Med School with a 280 on his USMLE and two dozen first author publications matching into a residency like Neurosurgery at Mass General once every other decade, but in general the best med schools send their students to the best residencies. Program Directors of prestigious residencies have a thing for filling their residency roster with graduates of prestigious med schools.

The correlate to that is you also do not see any Hopkins or Harvard grads with Board Scores of 190 and no publications matching into Neurosurgery at Mass General (or for that matter at Timbuktu Med school). Match lists mean crap unless you know the rank order lists of the students that matched which none of us know. The med school I woud like to be at is the med school where everyone matched their number 1 choice but that data just isn't available. I say go where you are comfortable and where you fit in.

 

[almost_there]

I'm ignorant, but why does research/publication matter for matching into residency? Do you do research in residency? Are the most "prestigious" residencies research-intensive?

I guess -- why is it that having done research/published makes the person a more attractive candidate for residency?

 

[hakksar]

I'm ignorant, but why does research/publication matter for matching into residency? Do you do research in residency? Are the most "prestigious" residencies research-intensive?

I guess -- why is it that having done research/published makes the person a more attractive candidate for residency?

Most competitive residencies look for research and more specifically publications as an indicator of scholarly interest and motivation. However, most do not care if the research is in the particular field or not. Less competitive residencies and fields could care less about any research. However, if you want to match into derm, orthopedics, neurosurgery, opthamology, etc. it is a huge help if you do research (no matter where you go since all of these residencies are very competitive) almost to the point of being mandatory. Hope that answers your question.

 

[Chief Resident]

The bottom line is that your med school does matter.

If two applicants are similar in terms of grades, board scores, publications, letters of rec, interview and so on, a program director is more inclined to have a graduate of a top 10 school in his residency than one from Podunk University. I'd even venture to say that they're more likely to take the student from Harvard Med over the one from a lower school even if the Harvard student had marginally lower stats.

You can argue all you want about how it is the 'student and not the school' and how match lists don't mean anything, but in reality graduating from a top school helps you a lot in getting a better residency. People in medicine tend to be fickle, and the reputation of your school carries weight with them even if you yourself try to take the 'high road' and tell yourself the school you go to doesn't matter.

 

[thackl]

It really depends on what you want to do. If doing research at a top institution or teaching at one is your thing, then it could matter quite a lot. If you just want to be a good Dr., then it dosn't matter..... and might be better to be at a less prestigous place (or so I've been told).

 

[automaton]

in my opinion the role of a doctor is not just to practice medicine but also to develop the science and find ways of taking care of people better. i hear people say that going to a decent no-name school will make you a good doctor, perhaps even a better doctor. but i think that only looks at part of what it means to be a doctor of medicine.

there is a reason why the top ranked schools are the most prestigious, and why the top ranked schools also happen to be the strongest in research. they are the leaders expanding medicine and adding to the collective knowledge base. people who concentrate purely on clinical care serve important roles in healthcare, but if everyone just practiced clinical medicine without research, we would not have heart surgeries or things like that.

i don't know how important a school's ranking is for impressing the residency directors. but i think going to a research oriented school has its own benefits. there is something to be said for working with the pioneers in medicine who are constantly advancing the field. it inspires the same kind of attitude in its students and cultivates important aspects of a medical student's educational process above and beyond purely clinical competency.

and i will also say that going to a high powered research school by no means limits your clinical opportunities. i have seen people talk about going to my school if you want to do research, and to other schools if you want to actually practice medicine. that's stupid. it's not like students at "research schools" spend 4 years in the lab. we get trained in all the clinical aspects of medicine just like everyone else - we do not sacrifice clinical training for research. instead we just tend to do research in addition to the clinical training that others all do.

if i were a residency director i would keep those things in mind when choosing residents.

 

[dancindr]

there is a reason why the top ranked schools are the most prestigious, and why the top ranked schools also happen to be the strongest in research. they are the leaders expanding medicine and adding to the collective knowledge base. people who concentrate purely on clinical care serve important roles in healthcare, but if everyone just practiced clinical medicine without research, we would not have heart surgeries or things like that.

This is true, but all less prestigious schools also have active research and most are "leaders expanding medicine" in some field(s). Sure, they are not huge institutions known for research in many fields, but they may be the only people doing major research in 1 or 2 specific fields which can be important and which students may have access to. Students at every med school (that I know of) can do research within their institution if they want to, its just more of the culture at the prestigious schools, where everyone does it.
As for clinical education, I know that at least some big name schools don't get as much simply because the residents do most of the good stuff while students do all the scutwork. However, I'm sure this is not true across the board.

 

[Acherona]

How many students do research while in medical school at the "big research schools?". It's my impression that most students even at these schools don't engage in research during the year, preferring to get that experience during the summer. In the summer lots of people go to different schools anyway.

btw, I don't think the prestige factor actually correlates all that well with the amount of research going on at the institution, or the number of "pioneers" (with whom you probably won't be working anyway), at least among the top like 50 schools.

in my opinion the role of a doctor is not just to practice medicine but also to develop the science and find ways of taking care of people better. i hear people say that going to a decent no-name school will make you a good doctor, perhaps even a better doctor. but i think that only looks at part of what it means to be a doctor of medicine.

there is a reason why the top ranked schools are the most prestigious, and why the top ranked schools also happen to be the strongest in research. they are the leaders expanding medicine and adding to the collective knowledge base. people who concentrate purely on clinical care serve important roles in healthcare, but if everyone just practiced clinical medicine without research, we would not have heart surgeries or things like that.

i don't know how important a school's ranking is for impressing the residency directors. but i think going to a research oriented school has its own benefits. there is something to be said for working with the pioneers in medicine who are constantly advancing the field. it inspires the same kind of attitude in its students and cultivates important aspects of a medical student's educational process above and beyond purely clinical competency.

and i will also say that going to a high powered research school by no means limits your clinical opportunities. i have seen people talk about going to my school if you want to do research, and to other schools if you want to actually practice medicine. that's stupid. it's not like students at "research schools" spend 4 years in the lab. we get trained in all the clinical aspects of medicine just like everyone else - we do not sacrifice clinical training for research. instead we just tend to do research in addition to the clinical training that others all do.

if i were a residency director i would keep those things in mind when choosing residents.

 

[Bfriccia1]

How many students do research while in medical school at the "big research schools?". It's my impression that most students even at these schools don't engage in research during the year, preferring to get that experience during the summer. In the summer lots of people go to different schools anyway.

btw, I don't think the prestige factor actually correlates all that well with the amount of research going on at the institution, or the number of "pioneers" (with whom you probably won't be working anyway), at least among the top like 50 schools.

I go to one of these "big research schools" and about 70% of my class stays during the summer of 1st year to do research here (not at other schools for the most part). It is hard to do research during the year though. A lot of people also take a year off at my school for research fellowships ect. Academic medical centers tend to be judged for the research that goes on at their institution rather than the clinical skills of their clinicians (in general).

 

[drguy22]

It matters, don't let anybody tell you otherwise. Look at the match lists from the best med schools and compare them to the lower ranking schools. Sure you'll always have the student from Timbuktu Med School with a 280 on his USMLE and two dozen first author publications matching into a residency like Neurosurgery at Mass General once every other decade, but in general the best med schools send their students to the best residencies. Program Directors of prestigious residencies have a thing for filling their residency roster with graduates of prestigious med schools.

it doesnt matter...ya MAYBE itll give u SOME edge....i get this from talking to residency directors, where do you get your info?

 

[Chief Resident]

it doesnt matter...ya MAYBE itll give u SOME edge....i get this from talking to residency directors, where do you get your info?

Residency directors, residents and graduates of top-ranked residencies. People at places like 2nd/3rd tier state schools may have told you differently. But the facts generally support what I have been told and seen.

 

[skypilot]

I go to one of these "big research schools" and about 70% of my class stays during the summer of 1st year to do research here (not at other schools for the most part). It is hard to do research during the year though. A lot of people also take a year off at my school for research fellowships ect. Academic medical centers tend to be judged for the research that goes on at their institution rather than the clinical skills of their clinicians (in general).

If you go to a lower ranked school and want to match into a highly competitive residency just take a year off and do a research project in your chosen field and blow all those Harvard grads out of the water!

 

[Chief Resident]

If you go to a lower ranked school and want to match into a highly competitive residency just take a year off and do a research project in your chosen field and blow all those Harvard grads out of the water!

A year of research isn't usually enough to 'blow all those Harvard grads out of water'. Especially since even Harvard grads who want to go into competetive residencies also do research, at places like Harvard/Mass General.

 

[Anon]

A year of research isn't usually enough to 'blow all those Harvard grads out of water'. Especially since even Harvard grads who want to go into competetive residencies also do research.

I couldn't agree more.

I went from an unranked state school to a top medical school. That process alone proved that pedigree matters. While people can say, oh look at Anon, who went to a crappy state school and got into a great medical school anyway, why care about undergrad rankings? Well here's the difference: there are many ivy league grads in my class. Most of their undergrad classmates also had choices of top medical schools. There are also many state school grads in my class, but most of us are the only one from our undergrad schools here. In the year I applied for med school, of 20 or so applicants from my undergrad insitution, only 4 got in anywhere, and only 2 got into top med schools.

Among my current med school classmates, most have done a significant amount of research, and many continue to do more. It is fairly common for students here to take a year off for research fellowship or MPH training.

Med school ranking does matter. It certainly isn't the one thing that'll make or break your application, but you can't deny the fact that the name helps.

 

[Bfriccia1]

Another reason why med school ranking does play some role is the physicians at the top medical schools tend to have better connections and be more well known nationally which will make your letters for residency better and it will give you an edge when they call up programs on your behalf during residency application season. You can go to a great residency program from a lower "ranked" medical school but it is definitely more work (but if you don't mind the more uphill climb then it doesnt matter too much).

 

[Anka]

Another thing not to overlook as you're thinking about this issue is that it helps to be a known quantity. The contacts you develop (usually at our level in the form of identifying mentors) can help a lot when you're applying to residency. If you're trying to match in a relatively small and/or conservative field (i.e., one where people all tend to know each other or, in the case of the latter, where the stakes are such that people prefer recommendations from people they know) it can help to have a letter of rec from someone the PD of the place you hope to match knows. That's more likely if you're in a school where some of the top MD's in your field work; it's harder at a smaller, less prestigeous school.

Anka

 

[skypilot]

Another thing not to overlook as you're thinking about this issue is that it helps to be a known quantity. The contacts you develop (usually at our level in the form of identifying mentors) can help a lot when you're applying to residency. If you're trying to match in a relatively small and/or conservative field (i.e., one where people all tend to know each other or, in the case of the latter, where the stakes are such that people prefer recommendations from people they know) it can help to have a letter of rec from someone the PD of the place you hope to match knows. That's more likely if you're in a school where some of the top MD's in your field work; it's harder at a smaller, less prestigeous school.

Anka

You can get around any of these problems with "Away" rotations, high board scores, and research in your chosen field.

 

[Chief Resident]

You can get around any of these problems with "Away" rotations, high board scores, and research in your chosen field.

You still don't get it.

 

[drguy22]

You still don't get it.

o think he gets it...

board score matter a whole lot more...someone from harvard with a 220 will prolly not beat anyone from a lower ranked school that has a 240+....

 

[evade]

These threads crack me up. The fact of the matter is that people who are attending top-ranked schools will say "YES rank matters, rank is EVERYTHING!" and people who are not at top-ranked schools will say "no, rank is meaningless, you can still be a fabulous doctor even if you're not at Harvard/Stanford/Yale!"

The truth is somewhere between these two extremes. If you're looking to match to an unbelievably competitive residency (derm, neurosurgery, etc.), the connections your school has is going to matter. That's where the prestige comes in. Furthermore, highly competitive people are more likely to seek out the milieu you find at top-ranked schools.

If you're looking to do what you love, and what you love is not uber-competitive (family practice, OB, etc.), you're fine in a place that you like, that you feel is supportive, and that gives you the opportunity to get involved early-on. If you're not into research, rank matters a whole lot less, since many ranking systems are based on the amount of research dollars schools pull down each year.

Bottom line: seek out the school that meets your needs. You should know what those needs are. If you don't get into the school that meets your needs, make the best of it. Rock the boards. You'll do fine.

 

[Chief Resident]

These threads crack me up.

Are you sure they 'crack you up'? Do you actually laugh out loudly and uncontrollably? Or might you be exagerating a bit? Me thinks it's the latter.

The fact of the matter is that people who are attending top-ranked schools will say "YES rank matters, rank is EVERYTHING!" and people who are not at top-ranked schools will say "no, rank is meaningless, you can still be a fabulous doctor even if you're not at Harvard/Stanford/Yale!"

I don't go to a top-ranked school and I know ranking matters. So it's not really the 'fact of the matter' which you assumed.

The truth is somewhere between these two extremes. If you're looking to match to an unbelievably competitive residency (derm, neurosurgery, etc.), the connections your school has is going to matter. That's where the prestige comes in. Furthermore, highly competitive people are more likely to seek out the milieu you find at top-ranked schools.

If you're looking to do what you love, and what you love is not uber-competitive (family practice, OB, etc.), you're fine in a place that you like, that you feel is supportive, and that gives you the opportunity to get involved early-on. If you're not into research, rank matters a whole lot less, since many ranking systems are based on the amount of research dollars schools pull down each year.

Bottom line: seek out the school that meets your needs. You should know what those needs are. If you don't get into the school that meets your needs, make the best of it. Rock the boards. You'll do fine.

What about all those people who went into med school wanting to be a family physician and sometime during 3rd year they realize they enjoy something ultra-competetive? People usually change their minds about what they want to do during the clinical years of med school. The better ranked your med school, the better your chances regardless of what you want to do. Hence why it matters.

 

[skypilot]

What about all those people who went into med school wanting to be a family physician and sometime during 3rd year they realize they enjoy something ultra-competetive? People usually change their minds about what they want to do during the clinical years of med school. The better ranked your med school, the better your chances regardless of what you want to do. Hence why it matters.

I'm not saying turn down Harvard or Hopkins if you get in. I am saying that you will not have to let a little thing like where you went to med school determine your career path.

If you can score well on the boards and do well in your rotations you will get any specialty your little heart desires. No matter what school you went to.

 

[ms1finally]

My med school isn't ranked, at all. They have a great match list. Go figure.

 

[evade]

Are you sure they 'crack you up'? Do you actually laugh out loudly and uncontrollably? Or might you be exagerating a bit? Me thinks it's the latter.

These posts actually do make me laugh. Really and truly. I guess it's no surprise that some of the neurotic premeds end up as neurotic meds. The future is coming, and there's no end to the worrying you can do! You are where you are, and no matter where that is, strive to be the best you can. Why tweak about rankings now?

 

[45408]

Hence why it matters.

It probably does, but you're not ever going to know exactly how much. A residency director might be partial to his alma mater moreso than a more well-recognized name. You might not go to a top school, but if the RD is friends with your PI, you could be a lock. There are a few too many interpersonal connections to prove how much your school matters. Sure, the match lists at top schools are great, but who goes there in the first place? Big fish. If I put a lot of big fish in a small pond, and I go fishing, I'm gonna catch big fish.

 

[goodies]

From everyone's posts, it seems like ranking does matter.

If I want to do residency at a certain top 20 school, would it be possible for me to do research at that school during the summer? Would that help at all or would it make me look bad at my own school for not doing research here?

 

[drguy22]

From everyone's posts, it seems like ranking does matter.

looks like u didnt read EVERYONE's post

 

[goodies]

looks like u didnt read EVERYONE's post

edit: it matters to a certain degree............

 

[NEATOMD]

This is a pretty pointless argument. It made me laugh too (Yes, literally laugh, I almost fell off my chair) My school's better than yours, my big brother will come beat up your big brother...Nuh uh...Uh huh...
Good thing people don't get matched according to maturity. We'd all be looking at the bottom of the line.

 

[Chief Resident]

This is a pretty pointless argument. It made me laugh too (Yes, literally laugh, I almost fell off my chair)

Sure you did.

And if it's 'pointless' then I guess what residency a doctor trains at doesn't matter either.

 

[hakksar]

And if it's 'pointless' then I guess what residency a doctor trains at doesn't matter either.

Depends on the specialty. Some specialties have wide variances in the residency experience and therefore the exact program matters (ie internal med/family med/peds). Yet other other specialties (ie Emergency Medicine) have really strict RRC requirements and therefore the programs are pretty uniform. If you trained in internal med at Mass General you will have an easier time getting an academic position or fellowship then if you trained at a less elite program. However, if you train in emergency medicine at a well established uniformly respected program like Denver or Cincinnatti you will really not have an advantage over someone who trained at a program that is less established when applying for fellowships. This is because anyone who trained in EM had to meet strict RRC requirements before finishing residency and therefore the fellowship programs can assume that all residents had about equal training. This brings your choice of where to apply and rank residency programs back to where you want to live and what kind of hospital do you want to be at. Rankings only matter if the RRC lets them matter, the same could be said for med school rankings depending on the LCME's requirements (which right now allow a wide variation in undergraduate medical eductation).

 

[BerlinNeuro]

Only 12-14% of all medical students are going to be attending a top 20 school. That means 86-88% percent of students will NOT be attending a top 20 ranked school. Therefore, most residency directors do not have the opportunity to fill their ranks with only Top 20 alums if they wanted to do so, and not all Top 20 alums will want those prize spots anyway. Those PDs will have to take applicants from the "other" schools as well, and to get that place you have to be good.

Maybe right now you'll get lucky and get that spot at Yale, but considering only around 50% of applicants get accepted to any spot, I think most medical students are happy to have to opportunity to fulfill their desire to become a physician. And you can become a good physician even if you went to the Carribean, or a DO school, or the very bottom ranked MD school. In the end, medical education is what you yourself put into it. If you put in the hours you probably can earn that top board score. Medicine isn't magical, it just takes effort- and that means time. So, earn your 240+ and get that mythical derm residency at Mass Gen.. But be real with yourself. Consider who you are competing with- you're competing against those who got into med school- who are the ones who made it against all those who never even got a chance to be a doc.

I guess I'm just starting to get to the rambling stage of this, and I haven't been on here in ages, but I think my pearl of wisdom into this yearly repetitive argument on SDN is to be grateful for getting accepted, and WHEN you have the choice- go with the school YOU feel is the best for you. You have another 3+ years to worry about residency. Worry about it then. Because you might graduate 149/150 in your class anyway.

 

[evade]

I guess I'm just starting to get to the rambling stage of this, and I haven't been on here in ages, but I think my pearl of wisdom into this yearly repetitive argument on SDN is to be grateful for getting accepted, and WHEN you have the choice- go with the school YOU feel is the best for you. You have another 3+ years to worry about residency. Worry about it then. Because you might graduate 149/150 in your class anyway.

And of course, the school that's best for you may not be the best-ranked school you were accepted to. I got into a higher ranked school than I'm attending. But I am happier here than I would have been there, for a number of reasons, and if I could make the choice again I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

[kate88]

I also chose a less competitive school (my state medical school) over a more competitive school, and I totally agree with the above post. Of course ranking matters, but when it comes down to choosing schools, go with where you will be happy. I know this sounds cheesy, but its true. If your priority is attending a super competitive school, go there, you will regret your decision every day if you go somewhere else. If you prefer the atmosphere/tuition cost/program/etc of another school, go there.

You will excel where you are happy. Your performance is far more important than competitiveness of your program.

 

[NEATOMD]

Sure you did.

And if it's 'pointless' then I guess what residency a doctor trains at doesn't matter either.

Yeah, I think you misunderstood me. I meant that arguing over this is pointless because everyone has pretty much made up their mind one way or another. No one here is going to change anyone's mind about the matter. Disrespecting people and arguing will, more than likely, tend to polarize the issue...not resolve it.

 

[gary5]

Everything matters. Go to the best school that you want to go to and that you get into. It's that simple.

 

[2009md2b]

I think you should go to med school in a geographic area that you want to do your residency. I'm only an MS1 but it seems like every school I interviewed at and even more so at my school, students stay "in system" for residency. So go to a good school, you will have an edge up on a least one program in any speciality (the one at your institution).

 

[ivan lewis]

Are you people out of your minds? Of course it matters where you went to medical school. When I was applying for residencies, I found out that some programs rank medical schools into tiers and give points according to tiers (just as they did for step I scores, clinical grades, etc). Then they used this to grant interviews. This means that if you went to a lower tier school you can still get interviews at top programs but you'd better have much better numbers than the kid from harvard/hopkins. So yes that guy from Harvard with the 220 will beat you for a residency spot if you're from a last tier medical school with a 240.

 

[WatchingWaiting]

Are you people out of your minds? Of course it matters where you went to medical school. When I was applying for residencies, I found out that some programs rank medical schools into tiers and give points according to tiers (just as they did for step I scores, clinical grades, etc). Then they used this to grant interviews. This means that if you went to a lower tier school you can still get interviews at top programs but you'd better have much better numbers than the kid from harvard/hopkins. So yes that guy from Harvard with the 220 will beat you for a residency spot if you're from a last tier medical school with a 240.

I'm not sure the magnitude of the boost is that great. Given that top tier med schools have a 230+ Step 1 average and last tier med schools have a 200-210 average, the situation you're describing doesn't happen all that often. Don't confuse the fact that the students at the top med schools are the best and brightest (in terms of academic credentials, reserach, and the like) and so do well in the match with sticking a marginal applicant at a top med school is going to make residency directors fall over themselves based on just the name of the institution.

 

[ms1finally]

I'm not sure the magnitude of the boost is that great. Given that top tier med schools have a 230+ Step 1 average and last tier med schools have a 200-210 average, the situation you're describing doesn't happen all that often.

I hate to sound nitpicky, but I figure I've spent the last 25 years doing so and why stop now? How is it that you are privy to information that just about every pre-med and med student in the country wants and can't get their hands on? The average board scores by med school are not readily available from what I understand. If what I have read on SDN is true (hmm...find the problem in THAT statement) then the University of Florida - which I know nothing about, but it doesn't appear in the list of top 10 programs - has really high board scores (someone said they are in the 230s or so!!!!) and some of the "top tier" schools tend to actually have crappy board scores. I know from interviewing that one of the "low tier" schools I visited actually beats the national average by about 10 points on a yearly basis.

I agree that HMS/Hopkins/Wash U/etc. students have some advantage in the match, but I'm not convinced that it's due to board scores. I say this without actually knowing what the avg board scores are for these schools, since, well, no one seems to know (but please correct me if I am wrong!!!).

 

[WatchingWaiting]

I hate to sound nitpicky, but I figure I've spent the last 25 years doing so and why stop now? How is it that you are privy to information that just about every pre-med and med student in the country wants and can't get their hands on? The average board scores by med school are not readily available from what I understand. If what I have read on SDN is true (hmm...find the problem in THAT statement) then the University of Florida - which I know nothing about, but it doesn't appear in the list of top 10 programs - has really high board scores (someone said they are in the 230s or so!!!!) and some of the "top tier" schools tend to actually have crappy board scores. I know from interviewing that one of the "low tier" schools I visited actually beats the national average by about 10 points on a yearly basis.

I agree that HMS/Hopkins/Wash U/etc. students have some advantage in the match, but I'm not convinced that it's due to board scores. I say this without actually knowing what the avg board scores are for these schools, since, well, no one seems to know (but please correct me if I am wrong!!!).

Well, you are right that unlike MCAT/gpa credentials, the mean step 1 score is generally not readily available unless you are a student at the school or know someone who is. And, unfortunately, many people do outright make the numbers up. But, since I'm such a nice person, I'll link you to the Dean's newletter at Stanford:

http://deansnewsletter.stanford.edu/archive/10_03_05.html

"While this outcome needs to be interpreted carefully, it is the case that the first class entering the New Curriculum scored spectacularly on the USLME Step 1. Indeed, of the 64 students who took the exam, the pass rate was 100%, with a mean score of 237 and a median of 241. This is likely the highest score in the nation. Of course this result reflects the quality of the students taking the exam, but I believe it is also a sign of the impact of the New Curriculum on their knowledge base."

There is no link to it, but we were told at our Step 1 overview talk that the average scores over the last three years were 229, 232, and 230. The low to mid 230s average I've cited for other top schools is from people I know at schools and from the occassional post that shows up here on SDN discussing it, though you're right I don't know for sure they're accurate. The 200-210 number for bottom tier schools I made up from the likely statistical distribution based on their incoming student MCAT scores and the .6-.7 concordance between MCAT and Step 1 scores. I find it highly unlikely that a school with a below 30 MCAT average would have a Step 1 score above the 215-220 national average.

 

[ms1finally]

The 200-210 number for bottom tier schools I made up from the likely statistical distribution based on their incoming student MCAT scores and the .6-.7 concordance between MCAT and Step 1 scores.

Hmmm...let's hold off on making stuff up, shall we?

 

[WatchingWaiting]

Hmmm...let's hold off on making stuff up, shall we?

You don't believe in statistics? Some med school has to be getting below the national average on Step 1, and with every study done on the topic showing a .6-.7 correlation between MCAT and Step 1, you can fairly confidently guess which med schools those are...

 

[ms1finally]

You don't believe in statistics? Some med school has to be getting below the national average on Step 1, and with every study done on the topic showing a .6-.7 correlation between MCAT and Step 1, you can fairly confidently guess which med schools those are...

No, actually you can't. From what I've heard, Harvard (avg MCAT=35.05) has relatively low board scores (note: I can not cite any kind of source on this one, and I fully acknowledge it). Rosalind Franklin (avg. MCAT=29.57) is supposed to have excellent board scores (I believe I heard 230 or so). NYMC (avg MCAT=29.8) has an average in the high 220s from what I understand. BOTH of these schools are in the "low tier" that you cited, and yet they consistently perform well on the boards. University of Florida (avg MCAT=31.25) has board scores in the mid-230s!!!!! Yet you want to say, "Ok, because this school's MCATS are sub-30, their average board scores must be in the 200 range."

On a side note, I absolutely believe in statistics. . .when they are based on FACT and not speculation.

 

[hakksar]

You don't believe in statistics? Some med school has to be getting below the national average on Step 1, and with every study done on the topic showing a .6-.7 correlation between MCAT and Step 1, you can fairly confidently guess which med schools those are...

It is not true that "some med school has to be getting below the national average on step 1" The average for step one is derived from all takers of the exam. First of all since there are many people taking step 1 from foreign medical schools it is actually a lot less likely that an allopathic med school will average below the average on step 1. Second even if only US med school students took step 1 there is no guarantee that any med school would be below the average. All medical schools could have some people below the average and some above the average. They all could be right on the average or even above the average since the national average is based on individual student scores and not the average of schools. It is pretty basic statistics that prove that it is not true that "some med school has to be getting below the national average on step 1".

 

[Long Dong]

the Dean's newletter at Stanford:

of the 64 students who took the exam, the pass rate was 100%, with a mean score of 237 and a median of 241. This is likely the highest score in the nation.

wow their average is almost 1 sd above the the national.