How is Anesthesiology ROAD?

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johnaddams said:
I just watched a lifestyle video on the specialty. It looks demanding and you always have someone's life on the line, so why is it road?
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ROAD are for "controlled" lifestyle specialties, not necessarily due to the daily demands of the specialty itself.

http://yalemedicine.yale.edu/autumn2007/features/feature/51534

Anesthesiology tends to have more "controlled" hours, and once you're done, you're done. No pager kept on you when you go home, no actual patients that you have of your own, etc.
 
man, for anyone wanting to do EM, there's a thread on the EM forums that is just the most depressing stuff you can read.

read that and then think whether or not EM is a lifestyle specialty.
 
Probably an overly dramatic promotion piece. You are standing ever vigilant. And for moments or during difficult airways can be as hectic as anything in medicine. But the routine stuff is quite peaceful and as was mentioned the control over lifestyle is outstanding.

Anesthesiology is an awesome field.

The things that knock fields out of the realm of sweetness are control over lifestyle and compensation per hour of labor. For EM it's the control issue. It should be noted that when jailors and torturers want to break down the psyche of their prisoners step 1 is removing all control the prisoner has over themselves and their environment.
 
southernIM said:
ROAD is a 40+ year old acronym, cemented into history in House of God.
Lots of things have changed since then.
Every 6-8 months someone will post a suggestion of how it should be "modified" or asking why XXX lifestyle field isn't included.
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Oh geez... that book again? I should probably suck it up and read it. Every time I try, I just can't get into it.
For the record, I don't think EM should be part of the awesome-lifestyle club. I just offered it up as a foil. I figured there had to be more to the criteria than just controlled hours, lack of pager, etc.
Didn't know it was a book reference...

notbobtrustme said:
man, for anyone wanting to do EM, there's a thread on the EM forums that is just the most depressing stuff you can read.
read that and then think whether or not EM is a lifestyle specialty.
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(hint, it's not)

Nasrudin said:
The things that knock fields out of the realm of sweetness are control over lifestyle and compensation per hour of labor. For EM it's the control issue. It should be noted that when jailors and torturers want to break down the psyche of their prisoners step 1 is removing all control the prisoner has over themselves and their environment.
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EM is, perhaps, the cause of many other specialty's lack of control. You think you have your day all planned out, then *bam* a consult from the ED, followed by *bam* another, and another and another!
 
Doctor Bob said:
Oh geez... that book again? I should probably suck it up and read it. Every time I try, I just can't get into it.
For the record, I don't think EM should be part of the awesome-lifestyle club. I just offered it up as a foil. I figured there had to be more to the criteria than just controlled hours, lack of pager, etc.
Didn't know it was a book reference...



(hint, it's not)



EM is, perhaps, the cause of many other specialty's lack of control. You think you have your day all planned out, then *bam* a consult from the ED, followed by *bam* another, and another and another!
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Yeah, lack of control over these round the clock consults is one reason why some fields suck. And the metric of how much access EM has to your service and how promptly and frequently your service must respond is probably a superb criteria for lifestyle scoring.

You still have to answer to the night-to-day flip flop schedules of most ED attendings to be scored as high as derm and such for lifestyle.
 
Doctor Bob said:
Oh geez... that book again? I should probably suck it up and read it. Every time I try, I just can't get into it.
For the record, I don't think EM should be part of the awesome-lifestyle club. I just offered it up as a foil. I figured there had to be more to the criteria than just controlled hours, lack of pager, etc.
Didn't know it was a book reference...



(hint, it's not)



EM is, perhaps, the cause of many other specialty's lack of control. You think you have your day all planned out, then *bam* a consult from the ED, followed by *bam* another, and another and another!
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That book taught me everything I know about gomers before I even got to meet them.
 
notbobtrustme said:
man, for anyone wanting to do EM, there's a thread on the EM forums that is just the most depressing stuff you can read.

read that and then think whether or not EM is a lifestyle specialty.
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They sound like a bunch of crybabies. Average EM physician only works 1700 hours a year or so. I worked swing shift 40-50 hours a week and it wasn't that bad, and I had coworkers who were in their 50s and 60s pulling the same hours.
 
circulus vitios said:
They sound like a bunch of crybabies. Average EM physician only works 1700 hours a year or so. I worked swing shift 40-50 hours a week and it wasn't that bad, and I had coworkers who were in their 50s and 60s pulling the same hours.
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Yeah, because working 40-50 hours as an emergency physician is analogous to working 40-50 hours at whatever job you used to do.

You should probably refrain from making these kind of judgements as you haven't even started medical school yet.
 
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sinombre said:
Yeah, because working 40-50 hours as an emergency physician is analogous to working 40-50 hours at whatever job you used to do.

You should probably refrain from these kind of judgements as you haven't even started medical school yet.
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1700/48 = 35 hours a week with 4 weeks of vacation.
 
circulus vitios said:
1700/48 = 35 hours a week with 4 weeks of vacation.
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This is normal for EM, 35-37 hr work weeks. According to residents and attendings around these forums, that is plenty of hours. There is a reason it is that way....Just saying I haven't even started med school.
 
circulus vitios said:
They sound like a bunch of crybabies. Average EM physician only works 1700 hours a year or so. I worked swing shift 40-50 hours a week and it wasn't that bad, and I had coworkers who were in their 50s and 60s pulling the same hours.
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You have no idea what you're talking about, stop offering your uneducated opinion. Every time people point out that you don't have a clue, you fall back on the "oh I did hard labor it's way harder than a cushy job in a temperature controlled climate". You don't count the work in hours but in patients. You haven't even started medical school yet and you're passing judgment on attendings? There are many reasons for why EM physicians don't work more hours than they do and you'll see why if you get there.
 
circulus vitios said:
They sound like a bunch of crybabies. Average EM physician only works 1700 hours a year or so. I worked swing shift 40-50 hours a week and it wasn't that bad, and I had coworkers who were in their 50s and 60s pulling the same hours.
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It's not the number of hours, it's what you do and what you deal with in those hours. I could (and did) pull 70-80 hours/week as a retail hourly wage slave. It wasn't that difficult, kind of mindless. Do you really think I worked harder or dealt with the same level of stress in those 80 hours than an EP in 35-40? Have you ever spent any significant amount of time in an ED doing something other than volunteering/shadowing, or are you just bored and trolling?
 
MedWonk said:
Do you really think I worked harder or dealt with the same level of stress in those 80 hours than an EP in 35-40? Have you ever spent any significant amount of time in an ED doing something other than volunteering/shadowing, or are you just bored and trolling?
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The answer is no, he has not. It's not just about hours, but also about when those hours are worked. Jumping back and forth between first, second, and third shifts (or god forbid if you're doing 12 hour shifts) makes a 35 hour work week seem like a 100 hour work week. Yeah, you get to leave your work at work, but your time at home is ruined because of your unhealthy schedule.
 
Personally, I don't think Anes, Rads, or EM are lifestyle specialties.

From my personal experience, EM is hell. But shorter hrs, off when you are off, can have outside interest, Good hr pay.

Anes have many weeks of vacation but pull 60hr weeks from those I know. Very good hr pay. Surgeon bitch to some point. and you are off when you are off. still in the OR.

Rads used to be better but from what I have been hearing from those in it. They are working more hrs and doing more crap. And from the limited time I have spent with them, they look busy. Plus, I cant read film worth a crap.

Derm is well..... great. except for the actual topic. I hate it.

Optho is a great surgery option. I cant do eyes and hate all the equipment.

So, I rather take another ROAD or ROADE..........
 
notbobtrustme said:
man, for anyone wanting to do EM, there's a thread on the EM forums that is just the most depressing stuff you can read.

read that and then think whether or not EM is a lifestyle specialty.
Click to expand...


Which one? The threads discussing CMGs or the "Medicine sucks" (i.e. "Congrats... your scan came back and your cancer decided to vacation in your brain") thread?
 
Siggy said:
Which one? The threads discussing CMGs or the "Medicine sucks" (i.e. "Congrats... your scan came back and your cancer decided to vacation in your brain") thread?
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the latter one.
 
I didn't say the job wasn't hard, I said the hours weren't bad. Working 35 hours a week on shift is a great lifestyle even if you're going balls to the wall 100% productivity for those 35 hours. I don't know about you, but I don't like being at work if I don't have to be. I'd rather work myself to the bone for 35 hours than work the typical pace of other specialties for 50-60 hours a week. If you enjoy EM, the lifestyle is unmatched.
 
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circulus vitios said:
I didn't say the job wasn't hard, I said the hours weren't bad. Working 35 hours a week on shift is a great lifestyle even if you're going balls to the wall 100% productivity for those 35 hours. I don't know about you, but I don't like being at work if I don't have to be. I'd rather work myself to the bone for 35 hours than work the typical pace of other specialties for 50-60 hours a week. If you enjoy EM, the lifestyle is unmatched.
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Yeah thanks for the perspective on EM vs other specialties, premed.
 
The referenced "book" by S. Shem, is dated, but if you can't get into it, don't wast your time. Much of the material is dated. Just a note on anesthesiology as a specialty choice: A fair number of folks move into pain management. This isn't for everyone, but it is an option. A few of my friends (over 60) are still practicing—imagine that—and they're having the time of their life. Pain practice as an anesthesiologist offers a nice mix of the intellectual challenges of medicine with evolving procedures. The downside is on the regulatory side, but Pain Medicine is truly fascinating, and the opportunities in private practice will continue to thrive—despite the ACA.
 
circulus vitios said:
They sound like a bunch of crybabies. Average EM physician only works 1700 hours a year or so. I worked swing shift 40-50 hours a week and it wasn't that bad, and I had coworkers who were in their 50s and 60s pulling the same hours.
Click to expand...
Were you working the entire 40-50 hours? It seems those guys don't even get a chance to piss the entire shift.
 
circulus vitios said:
I didn't say the job wasn't hard, I said the hours weren't bad. Working 35 hours a week on shift is a great lifestyle even if you're going balls to the wall 100% productivity for those 35 hours. I don't know about you, but I don't like being at work if I don't have to be. I'd rather work myself to the bone for 35 hours than work the typical pace of other specialties for 50-60 hours a week. If you enjoy EM, the lifestyle is unmatched.
Click to expand...

35 hours and good pay sounds good on paper, but it's not all sunshine. From my experience working as an ED tech for a year before school, as much as I loved it, I was just flat out tired afterwards. And that's just as a tech!!! Sometimes the tiredness would extend into the next day, especially if I did overnight shifts. It would take a day or two to readjust my circadian rhythm, so during that time you just feel "off." You are constantly thinking and trying to be aware of every patient around you and dealing with all the crap they throw at you, and after a while, you get mentally fatigued. The docs don't get lunch breaks. Combine this with a 12 hour shift and actually being responsible for multiple lives at the same time as an ED physician. Then you also have to call patients' PCP or referral docs and have them potentially yell at you or give you an ear full because they think you're incompetent. Then there's psych patients, drug seekers, patients who just refuse to listen to you or suck at taking care of themselves, insane amounts of nursing home patients who come in for the same thing again and again, parents who are abusive or borderline abusive to their children, children who abandon their elderly parents at the ED, ED nurses who suck at nursing, floor nurses who delay receiving admitted patients making your ED packed, having to "board" patients in the ED because there is no room on the floor when they are admitted which causes your ED to overflow (this happened everywhere when hurricane Sandy hit the east coast... that was BAD. You could forget the thought of even a 30 second break), and on and on and on. Oh, you mean a nurse or ED tech didn't put a heart monitor lead back on the patient when it fell off? And the patient coded during that short period of time? You better PRAY that patient was a DNR (yes this scenario really did happen). And don't forget that the "patient experience" is also important because the higher ups are breathing down your neck. And this can all happen simultaneously, or one after the other. Mind you, I worked at an ED in a small community hospital, and still this all happened. Imagine working at larger city hospitals and trauma centers. Ha...

There is a reason why burnout is so high in the profession. Please be considerate of those who are in the field. To say they are "crybabies" shows extreme ignorance of what ED docs go through on a daily basis.
 
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NontradCA said:
Were you working the entire 40-50 hours? It seems those guys don't even get a chance to piss the entire shift.
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My last rotation was an EM rotation (matched into an intern year, still shooting for EM), and most shifts I didn't have time to stop for a restroom break. Granted it was so busy that the 8 hours flew by and I didn't feel the need to, but yea... no time for that.
 
What are the pathways to get to trauma surgery? Could you do it through EM?
 
Anastomoses said:
What are the pathways to get to trauma surgery? Could you do it through EM?
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Fellowship training after gen surg is the only one I'm familiar with. EM docs do procedures but do not operate. To what degree a country EM doc goes cowboy in trauma situations I'm not sure.
 
croak said:
The referenced "book" by S. Shem, is dated, but if you can't get into it, don't wast your time. Much of the material is dated. Just a note on anesthesiology as a specialty choice: A fair number of folks move into pain management. This isn't for everyone, but it is an option. A few of my friends (over 60) are still practicing—imagine that—and they're having the time of their life. Pain practice as an anesthesiologist offers a nice mix of the intellectual challenges of medicine with evolving procedures. The downside is on the regulatory side, but Pain Medicine is truly fascinating, and the opportunities in private practice will continue to thrive—despite the ACA.
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This comment is a breath of fresh air, specially after hearing all the doom and gloom going on at the anesthesiology forum...
 
TXKnight said:
This comment is a breath of fresh air, specially after hearing all the doom and gloom going on at the anesthesiology forum...
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Well the ones that are over 60 enjoying themselves are close to retirement and won't be affected.
 
DermViser said:
Well the ones that are over 60 enjoying themselves are close to retirement and won't be affected.
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Not affected? More like they're the ones that are selling out the new generation and the profession for golden parachutes into retirement. "Hey give us 4 years and we'll make you a partner. Just kidding, we'll take 3 years of your life and turn you into an employee while getting rich off your labor."
 
Psai said:
Not affected? More like they're the ones that are selling out the new generation and the profession for golden parachutes into retirement. "Hey give us 4 years and we'll make you a partner. Just kidding, we'll take 3 years of your life and turn you into an employee while getting rich off your labor."
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I'm shocked too that they're doing that. As if the CRNA threat isn't enough of a PIA.
 
Psai said:
Not affected? More like they're the ones that are selling out the new generation and the profession for golden parachutes into retirement. "Hey give us 4 years and we'll make you a partner. Just kidding, we'll take 3 years of your life and turn you into an employee while getting rich off your labor."
Click to expand...

It's not just the medical profession. The baby boomers have leeched off the country in every sector and made our generation pay the price. They have been spoiled from their very beginnings as the product of a prosperous post-war environment and subsequently enjoyed affordable education, housing, and favorable labor and equity markets. They have raped our country of natural resources, sold us out to foreign nations, turned America into a third rate superpower, pushed all of us away from actual productive careers into service industries, saddled us with debt (rather forced it down our throats), and basically turned us into a nation of effeminate pansies effectively neutered and unable to accomplish anything in life under the threat of constant litigation or political retribution at work if we step out of line or try to take measures to better ourselves. They inherited the wealth of their parents after leading self-centered lives and used it to invest in themselves driving up to cost of real estate and education making it virtually unaffordable for anyone who missed the train that left decades ago and ensuring that the vast majority of young people will never be able to achieve what they did in financial security through guaranteed pensions and appreciated real estate. They will continue sucking everything they can off us until they are dead all the while continuing to criticize us and label us as entitled all along the way.
 
Psai said:
Not affected? More like they're the ones that are selling out the new generation and the profession for golden parachutes into retirement. "Hey give us 4 years and we'll make you a partner. Just kidding, we'll take 3 years of your life and turn you into an employee while getting rich off your labor."
Click to expand...
They don't owe you anything, but I'm sure your sense of entitlement will serve you well throughout life.
 
atomi said:
It's not just the medical profession. The baby boomers have leeched off the country in every sector and made our generation pay the price. They have been spoiled from their very beginnings as the product of a prosperous post-war environment and subsequently enjoyed affordable education, housing, and favorable labor and equity markets. They have raped our country of natural resources, sold us out to foreign nations, turned America into a third rate superpower, pushed all of us away from actual productive careers into service industries, saddled us with debt (rather forced it down our throats), and basically turned us into a nation of effeminate pansies effectively neutered and unable to accomplish anything in life under the threat of constant litigation or political retribution at work if we step out of line or try to take measures to better ourselves. They inherited the wealth of their parents after leading self-centered lives and used it to invest in themselves driving up to cost of real estate and education making it virtually unaffordable for anyone who missed the train that left decades ago and ensuring that the vast majority of young people will never be able to achieve what they did in financial security through guaranteed pensions and appreciated real estate. They will continue sucking everything they can off us until they are dead all the while continuing to criticize us and label us as entitled all along the way.
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*F U K C* yeah.
 
atomi said:
It's not just the medical profession. The baby boomers have leeched off the country in every sector and made our generation pay the price. They have been spoiled from their very beginnings as the product of a prosperous post-war environment and subsequently enjoyed affordable education, housing, and favorable labor and equity markets. They have raped our country of natural resources, sold us out to foreign nations, turned America into a third rate superpower, pushed all of us away from actual productive careers into service industries, saddled us with debt (rather forced it down our throats), and basically turned us into a nation of effeminate pansies effectively neutered and unable to accomplish anything in life under the threat of constant litigation or political retribution at work if we step out of line or try to take measures to better ourselves. They inherited the wealth of their parents after leading self-centered lives and used it to invest in themselves driving up to cost of real estate and education making it virtually unaffordable for anyone who missed the train that left decades ago and ensuring that the vast majority of young people will never be able to achieve what they did in financial security through guaranteed pensions and appreciated real estate. They will continue sucking everything they can off us until they are dead all the while continuing to criticize us and label us as entitled all along the way.
Click to expand...
tumblr_m6odkq8jNo1qbolbn.gif
 
atomi said:
It's not just the medical profession. The baby boomers have leeched off the country in every sector and made our generation pay the price. They have been spoiled from their very beginnings as the product of a prosperous post-war environment and subsequently enjoyed affordable education, housing, and favorable labor and equity markets. They have raped our country of natural resources, sold us out to foreign nations, turned America into a third rate superpower, pushed all of us away from actual productive careers into service industries, saddled us with debt (rather forced it down our throats), and basically turned us into a nation of effeminate pansies effectively neutered and unable to accomplish anything in life under the threat of constant litigation or political retribution at work if we step out of line or try to take measures to better ourselves. They inherited the wealth of their parents after leading self-centered lives and used it to invest in themselves driving up to cost of real estate and education making it virtually unaffordable for anyone who missed the train that left decades ago and ensuring that the vast majority of young people will never be able to achieve what they did in financial security through guaranteed pensions and appreciated real estate. They will continue sucking everything they can off us until they are dead all the while continuing to criticize us and label us as entitled all along the way.
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Pretty easy way to scapegoat and prevent our generation from taking any of the ownership.... You're attributing a TON of things to them that were almost completely out of their control, but whatever. All your post said to me was " oh look I'm in the current generation and we always hear how we suck (because we do), so I'm going to turn it on them and dish it back."
 
atomi said:
It's not just the medical profession. The baby boomers have leeched off the country in every sector and made our generation pay the price. They have been spoiled from their very beginnings as the product of a prosperous post-war environment and subsequently enjoyed affordable education, housing, and favorable labor and equity markets. They have raped our country of natural resources, sold us out to foreign nations, turned America into a third rate superpower, pushed all of us away from actual productive careers into service industries, saddled us with debt (rather forced it down our throats), and basically turned us into a nation of effeminate pansies effectively neutered and unable to accomplish anything in life under the threat of constant litigation or political retribution at work if we step out of line or try to take measures to better ourselves. They inherited the wealth of their parents after leading self-centered lives and used it to invest in themselves driving up to cost of real estate and education making it virtually unaffordable for anyone who missed the train that left decades ago and ensuring that the vast majority of young people will never be able to achieve what they did in financial security through guaranteed pensions and appreciated real estate. They will continue sucking everything they can off us until they are dead all the while continuing to criticize us and label us as entitled all along the way.
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THIS. THIS. THIS. Quite disgusting IMHO.
 
Pons Asinorum said:
You're knocking it out of the park in this thread. Somebody's been listening to that "How to Win Friends and Influence People" audiobook on the way to organic chem class.
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Everyone wants to reap the benefits of owning a successful practice but no one wants to take on the risk. People like Psai think they're entitled to something just because the practice was bought out 2 years into a 3 year track? Well, tough ****. No one is entitled to partnership or a steady job. The partners are free to do whatever falls under the contract, and no one held a gun to his head when he signed it.

Funny how these guys bitch about the government ruining medicine but in the same breath want to bleed the practice owners dry.
 
circulus vitios said:
Everyone wants to reap the benefits of owning a successful practice but no one wants to take on the risk. People like Psai think they're entitled to something just because the practice was bought out 2 years into a 3 year track? Well, tough ****. No one is entitled to partnership or a steady job. The partners are free to do whatever falls under the contract, and no one held a gun to his head when he signed it.

Funny how these guys bitch about the government ruining medicine but in the same breath want to bleed the practice owners dry.
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You don't know the things that you don't know about the context of the senior generation of anesthesiologists and the ASA (and lots of specialties) not protecting the longer term interests of their specialties. Please just disengage from this one. It's not a nail for your usual class-warfare hammer.
 
Pons Asinorum said:
You're knocking it out of the park in this thread. Somebody's been listening to that "How to Win Friends and Influence People" audiobook on the way to organic chem class.
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Hope he has the same attitude as a resident.
 
Pons Asinorum said:
You don't know the things that you don't know about the context of the senior generation of anesthesiologists and the ASA (and lots of specialties) not protecting the longer term interests of their specialties. Please just disengage from this one. It's not a nail for your usual class-warfare hammer.
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Sorry, I forgot that starting a practice in the 1980s or 1990s was a 0% down, risk-free endeavor.
 
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