How lethal can MCAT retakes be for MD schools?

[radioactive15]

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If you have a high GPA, but low initial MCAT score which you then improve during a second MCAT testing, does this dramatically lower your chances of an MD acceptance or do they strongly consider your second score and downplay the first low score?

I talking about taking it the first time and scoring the equivalent of a 27 but then retaking it and getting a 30 equivalent. Would this still ruin MD chances severely if you have a 3.7+ and solid activities?

Update: Forgot to mention that these are NOT my scores (I haven't taken it yet). Just wanted to know because I was scoring average on practice tests

 

[_Cassiopeia]

I have a really good friend who applied to med school last year with similar credentials (her MCAT scores were about the same as your scores) and did not hear back from any schools, she reapplied this year after taking the MCAT and was accepted to quite a few awesome schools. I would think that taking the MCAT a second time would only hurt your application if you scored lower.

 

[efle]

It's lethal if you do the same or worse. A few points higher will be a small help at schools that average, and a big help at schools that take your most recent score. If you had a 27, 30 combo you would just need to be smart and apply mostly to places that take most recent scores.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Edit

 

[GrapesofRath]

It's lethal if you do the same or worse. A few points higher will be a small help at schools that average, and a big help at schools that take your most recent score. If you had a 27, 30 combo you would just need to be smart and apply mostly to places that take most recent scores.

This is overstating things. There are many many people accepted every year who take the MCAT again who don't show improvement. There are people who retake and go from a 34 to 32 who are still accepted. It doesn't help their application but the whole it's lethal thing is going overboard. Lethal for admission is a cheating IA. Getting the same MCAT score again is simply something that can be overcome.

Every school is different. Some average. A few superscore. Some give by far the most weight to the most recent score. It all varies by school. By and large you'll find many schools willing to put more weight in a second score that is significantly higher than the first.

That said, one re-take in itself is certainly not what I would classify a major concern, particularly if there is improvement. More than two MCAT attempts is when it starts to become an issue or if there is a significant decline in an MCAT score the second time around.

Other thing that isn't really relevant to you but small MCAT improvements on re-takes aren't all that significant. A 30 is different than 32 and how it is perceived when taken once. A 30 the first time retaken to a 32 is not going to do much at all to help an applicant in comparison to the one who just has the 30. 3+ points on MCAT improvement is when the improvement matters alot more.

 

[Doug Underhill]

Retaking the MCAT gives them a second set of scores. The stated policies of most admissions office is that the highest set of scores is considered. Adcoms here often say they take all sets of scores into consideration.

 

[efle]

This is overstating things. There are many many people accepted every year who take the MCAT again who don't show improvement. There are people who retake and go from a 34 to 32 who are still accepted. It doesn't help their application but the whole it's lethal thing is going overboard. Lethal for admission is a cheating IA. Getting the same MCAT score again is simply something that can be overcome.

Every school is different. Some average. A few superscore. Some give by far the most weight to the most recent score. It all varies by school. By and large you'll find many schools willing to put more weight in a second score that is significantly higher than the first.

That said, one re-take in itself is certainly not what I would classify a major concern, particularly if there is improvement. More than two MCAT attempts is when it starts to become an issue or if there is a significant decline in an MCAT score the second time around.

Other thing that isn't really relevant to you but small MCAT improvements on re-takes aren't all that significant. A 30 is different than 32 and how it is perceived when taken once. A 30 the first time retaken to a 32 is not going to do much at all to help an applicant in comparison to the one who just has the 30. 3+ points on MCAT improvement is when the improvement matters alot more.

A 27 retaken without improvement or with a few points lower is lethal to most MD. A retaken 34 will get your judgement called into question even if you improve a couple points, let alone dropping points. But fair point that it isn't lethal the way felony convictions or cheating IAs are. It's just really really bad.

 

[GrapesofRath]

I wouldnt goes as far as say most have that state policy. As GrapesofRath said previously, there is a wide array of how schools "slice and dice" MCAT scores. Since MCAT is a standardized quantitative measure that is broken into subscores, some schools have formulas that may average all tests, average all subscores, take highest subscores, give weight to most recent over earlier, etc.

This is something really important that all of us pre-meds should know and most don't.

 

[GrapesofRath]

A 27 retaken without improvement or with a few points lower is lethal to most MD. A retaken 34 will get your judgement called into question even if you improve a couple points, let alone dropping points. But fair point that it isn't lethal the way felony convictions or cheating IAs are. It's just really really bad.

What your saying is mostly true but retaking and not improving happens more than we might think

https://www.aamc.org/students/download/271680/data/retestertotalscorechange.pdf

This is all speculation but of the 2000 people with 30+ scores who didn't improve the second time around from this time span, I don't think it's unreasonable to guess there were still a number who got into MD programs(what proportion I have absolutely no idea and whatever it is that stat alone is misleading).

What you said about not improving the second time around with what was already a subpar score really causing problems is on point.

 

[drmerbear]

n = 1
I took the MCAT a second time and scored 2 points above my original score in verbal reasoning (the old mcat) while the other sections stayed the same. Applied to 25 schools last cycle and got a good number of interviews and early acceptances in October. For some context, GPA =3.9, clinical shadowing, research, lots of TAing, and some student activities. You want to do your best on your first attempt, but don't think of it as the end of the world if you have to retake it. Think of it as a second chance to prove yourself. Of course ideally you'll want to improve the second time around... so there is a risk associated with retaking it if you score lower, but just make sure you're prepared and reasonable (obviously don't retake a 37 to try to get 40 but retaking a 30 to get 32 is more reasonable). Remember, the MCAT is only a part of your application, so just try your best.

 

[steelersfan1243]

This is overstating things. There are many many people accepted every year who take the MCAT again who don't show improvement. There are people who retake and go from a 34 to 32 who are still accepted. It doesn't help their application but the whole it's lethal thing is going overboard. Lethal for admission is a cheating IA. Getting the same MCAT score again is simply something that can be overcome.

Every school is different. Some average. A few superscore. Some give by far the most weight to the most recent score. It all varies by school. By and large you'll find many schools willing to put more weight in a second score that is significantly higher than the first.

That said, one re-take in itself is certainly not what I would classify a major concern, particularly if there is improvement. More than two MCAT attempts is when it starts to become an issue or if there is a significant decline in an MCAT score the second time around.

Other thing that isn't really relevant to you but small MCAT improvements on re-takes aren't all that significant. A 30 is different than 32 and how it is perceived when taken once. A 30 the first time retaken to a 32 is not going to do much at all to help an applicant in comparison to the one who just has the 30. 3+ points on MCAT improvement is when the improvement matters alot more.

n = 1
I took the MCAT a second time and scored 2 points above my original score in verbal reasoning (the old mcat) while the other sections stayed the same. Applied to 25 schools last cycle and got a good number of interviews and early acceptances in October. For some context, GPA =3.9, clinical shadowing, research, lots of TAing, and some student activities. You want to do your best on your first attempt, but don't think of it as the end of the world if you have to retake it. Think of it as a second chance to prove yourself. Of course ideally you'll want to improve the second time around... so there is a risk associated with retaking it if you score lower, but just make sure you're prepared and reasonable (obviously don't retake a 37 to try to get 40 but retaking a 30 to get 32 is more reasonable). Remember, the MCAT is only a part of your application, so just try your best.

OP I think these two posts really highlight the situation well and reflect the right attitude

Do not go into your first MCAT thinking you only have one shot to do well. This only puts on more unnecessary stress that may affect your performance. If you do not score as well as you wished, so be it, and take it again. What happens, happens. This will not kill your app, just have full confidence you will do better next time.

 

[ridethecliche]

A 27 retaken without improvement or with a few points lower is lethal to most MD. A retaken 34 will get your judgement called into question even if you improve a couple points, let alone dropping points. But fair point that it isn't lethal the way felony convictions or cheating IAs are. It's just really really bad.

I'd say that retaking a 34 will be called into question depending on your other EC's and your school list. You're going to passed over by a few low-mid tier schools that are pretty certain you're not interested in them even if you apply, whereas schools at upper tier schools will question your decision to retake, but the committee meeting will have a few voices that will ask the rest whether they'd have even considered your application if you hadn't retaken and received a higher score.

But yes, retaking and scoring lower= buh bye felicia.

 

[efle]

I'd say that retaking a 34 will be called into question depending on your other EC's and your school list. You're going to passed over by a few low-mid tier schools that are pretty certain you're not interested in them even if you apply, whereas schools at upper tier schools will question your decision to retake, but the committee meeting will have a few voices that will ask the rest whether they'd have even considered your application if you hadn't retaken and received a higher score.

But yes, retaking and scoring lower= buh bye felicia.

I just remember that Azor Ahai thread where he declared he was going to retake a 35 and there was a chorus of "don't do it it'll reflect badly even if you go up a couple points"

Ended up getting a 39 though so i guess he made the right choice

 

[GrapesofRath]

I just remember that Azor Ahai thread where he declared he was going to retake a 35 and there was a chorus of "don't do it it'll reflect badly even if you go up a couple points"

Ended up getting a 39 though so i guess he made the right choice

Still wouldn't really call it the right choice.

 

[ridethecliche]

No one's going to really question you if it works and the improvement is statistically significant.

If you retake a 36/37+ though....

A 34 is borderline for those schools. I retook a 30 and got a 34, so that was worth it

Still wouldn't really call it the right choice.

I would, depending on target schools. There will be adcomm members that disagree and others that like it. Depends on the school.

 

[GrapesofRath]

No one's going to really question you if it works and the improvement is statistically significant.

If you retake a 36/37+ though....

A 34 is borderline for those schools. I retook a 30 and got a 34, so that was worth it



I would, depending on target schools. There will be adcomm members that disagree and others that like it. Depends on the school.

Still wouldn't

The only schools where re-taking a 34 and doing substantially better could be the difference between competitive and not competitive are those with the 37/38 type medians. Even the Duke, Pitt, Columbia and Michigans of the world a 34 can work. And given the odds ANYBODY has at a chance like WASHU or Penn schools with those 38 median MCATs I think its a terrible idea to invest in an MCAT re-take just to boost your odds for those 5-10 schools where a 34 is too low.

The much bigger issues are two fold
1) Retaking and getting a 35-36 isn't really going to help you too much. A 36 is better than a 34. But a 36 with a 34 the first time around really just doesn't hold the same weight. And much more significantly, not only is the statistical boost not really significant you are creating a red flag from what ADCOMs perceive as poor judgment retaking a 34.
2) A big part of the reason why ADCOMs don't like people re-taking 34's is because the odds of doing alot better just aren't very good. 26% of people with 33-35's got more than 2 points better the second time around. 40% did the same or worse. You know how to really start messing with what's already a strong score for most schools? Re-take and get a lower one.
https://www.aamc.org/students/download/271680/data/retestertotalscorechange.pdf


Your case of a 30 which while sufficient is below average for MD programs being re-taken to a 34 is different and your decision was fine.

 

[Master3930]

I took the old MCAT got a 23 retook the new one got the equivalent of a 32 so I guess retaking was worth it 😉

 

[efle]

Still wouldn't really call it the right choice.

I'd call 35 --> 39 a good choice for someone aiming at Top 20. That takes you from a point or two below median to a point or two above, total game changer if you're otherwise standard for those schools.

Agree that for the less number-whoreish top schools (places like UCSF/UCLA, Columbia, Mayo) its only going to hurt you though.

 

[efle]

I took the old MCAT got a 23 retook the new one got the equivalent of a 32 so I guess retaking was worth it 😉

Lol with a 23 you didn't really have a choice

 

[GrapesofRath]

I'd call 35 --> 39 a good choice for someone aiming at Top 20. That takes you from a point or two below median to a point or two above, total game changer if you're otherwise standard for those schools.

Agree that for the less number-whoreish top schools (places like UCSF/UCLA, Columbia, Mayo) its only going to hurt you though.

It's a easily a bad decision for the vast majority of top 20 schools. A 35 works completely fine at 36 median schools(And this says nothing about the red flag that goes up retaking that). Even with 37 medians a 35 isn't going to be some major issue that warrants a retake.

The one's with the 38 median MCATs where a 35 MIGHT be perceived as too low(I believe only WASHU and Penn maybe one or two others have 38 medians) you also have to consider some ADCOMs at those schools might still not be fan of the decision for a variety of reasons. And re-taking for the sole purposes of wanting to get into those 2-3 schools where a 35 might low but where ANBODYs odds are so low of getting in no matter who they are is a terrible decision.

 

[Master3930]

Lol with a 23 you didn't really have a choice

well obviously, but OP was talking about a low initial score to a decent score not this 34-39 nonsense everyone is going on about

 

[Doug Underhill]

I wouldnt goes as far as say most have that state policy.

I'm just basing it on this old-ish topic on SDN where someone called a ton of admissions offices and asked. Caveat emptor: this is several years old.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...age-mcat-scores-or-which-take-highest.838204/


It looks like a split between "the best set of scores" and "the most recent set of scores". The two should really be the same for your application: don't go down on the second attempt, whatever you do!

 

[efle]

It's a easily a bad decision for the vast majority of top 20 schools. A 35 works completely fine at 36 median schools(And this says nothing about the red flag that goes up retaking that). Even with 37 medians a 35 isn't going to be some major issue that warrants a retake.

The one's with the 38 median MCATs where a 35 MIGHT be perceived as too low(I believe only WASHU and Penn maybe one or two others have 38 medians) you also have to consider some ADCOMs at those schools might still not be fan of the decision for a variety of reasons. And re-taking for the sole purposes of wanting to get into those 2-3 schools where a 35 might low but where ANBODYs odds are so low of getting in no matter who they are is a terrible decision.

I'm not convinced. There's a good number of schools with tenth percentiles at 32-34 and if you're a cookie cutter Asian male bio major you bet your ass a 35 vs 39 is a HUGE difference for your prospects.

 

[GrapesofRath]

I'm not convinced. There's a good number of schools with tenth percentiles at 32-34 and if you're a cookie cutter Asian male bio major you bet your ass a 35 vs 39 is a HUGE difference for your prospects.

That's your prerogative if you aren't going to heed the advice of ADCOMs who have said hundreds of times on here don't retake these type of scores. You really don't think ADCOMs who say don't do it don't know what the MCAT scores needed for top 20 schools are and what's considered too low? Gyngyn has shown what he thinks in this very thread.

 

[partypantss]

This is overstating things. There are many many people accepted every year who take the MCAT again who don't show improvement. There are people who retake and go from a 34 to 32 who are still accepted. It doesn't help their application but the whole it's lethal thing is going overboard. Lethal for admission is a cheating IA. Getting the same MCAT score again is simply something that can be overcome.

Every school is different. Some average. A few superscore. Some give by far the most weight to the most recent score. It all varies by school. By and large you'll find many schools willing to put more weight in a second score that is significantly higher than the first.

That said, one re-take in itself is certainly not what I would classify a major concern, particularly if there is improvement. More than two MCAT attempts is when it starts to become an issue or if there is a significant decline in an MCAT score the second time around.

Other thing that isn't really relevant to you but small MCAT improvements on re-takes aren't all that significant. A 30 is different than 32 and how it is perceived when taken once. A 30 the first time retaken to a 32 is not going to do much at all to help an applicant in comparison to the one who just has the 30. 3+ points on MCAT improvement is when the improvement matters alot more.

I don't think he was saying someone retaking a 32 and getting another 32 is lethal, I think hes talking about OP's particular case.. if he or she retook after getting a 27 and got ANOTHER 27 or lower, that would be bad for a lot of schools. There is a big difference between going from a 34 to a 32 and going from a 27 to a 25. The situation you gave, the applicant is still totally fine because both scores are high enough for many schools.

 

[efle]

That's your prerogative if you aren't going to heed the advice of ADCOMs who have said hundreds of times on here don't retake these type of scores. You really don't think ADCOMs who say don't do it don't know what the MCAT scores needed for top 20 schools are and what's considered too low? Gyngyn has shown what he thinks in this very thread.

As if the adcoms haven't been minority opinion before? SDN preached that your undergrad wasn't taken into any serious consideration, which is contrary to the AAMC survey for private Med schools. And gyngyn is at such a school I mentioned before (UC that doesnt number *****) so it follows he would judge a retake poorly. I've seen some Wustl data on % of apps interviewed per MCAT score, and 35 vs 39 is a big big jump. It's probably slightly less the case at places with 37 medians vs 38 , and certainly more the case if you're in the most competative subpopulations. But being a point or two shy of 90th percentile vs a point or two above 10th is a massive difference for many apps at many of the top schools.

 

[Rainbow Zebra]

If you have a high GPA, but low initial MCAT score which you then improve during a second MCAT testing, does this dramatically lower your chances of an MD acceptance or do they strongly consider your second score and downplay the first low score?

I talking about taking it the first time and scoring the equivalent of a 27 but then retaking it and getting a 30 equivalent. Would this still ruin MD chances severely if you have a 3.7+ and solid activities?

Update: Forgot to mention that these are NOT my scores (I haven't taken it yet). Just wanted to know because I was scoring average on practice tests

My first score from July 2013 was a 26, retake in November 2014 with a 34. I'll get back to you in the spring to see how it goes.

 

[Lawpy]

If you have a high GPA, but low initial MCAT score which you then improve during a second MCAT testing, does this dramatically lower your chances of an MD acceptance or do they strongly consider your second score and downplay the first low score?

I talking about taking it the first time and scoring the equivalent of a 27 but then retaking it and getting a 30 equivalent. Would this still ruin MD chances severely if you have a 3.7+ and solid activities

The impact of retakes depends on how much you improved from the first score to the second. So, going from a 22 to a 37 will likely be viewed favorably, since a 15-point difference is very significant, and a 37 is a top percentile score. Likewise, going from a 23 to a 32 means you went from an applicant with dead chances to someone who stands a strong chance at all DO schools and some MD schools. Clearly, retaking the MCAT and scoring the same or worse looks bad.

Some schools average, so if you have a low first score, you may be out of luck for these schools. However, for the most part, schools look at the recent or highest score (expected to be equivalent), so strong improvements help, even though all your scores will be seen by adcoms.

Deciding to retake a 30 score depends on the situation. If a subscore is crap but the overall score is good, retaking the MCAT and scoring higher will lead to a strong, balanced score. @GrapesofRath seems to put the upper bound of MCAT retake around 33. This is substantiated in school-specific decision forums when people who did retake a 33 and received a 39 (usually as a consequence of reapplication) received much more favorable success. @efle argues that even retaking a 35 and receiving a 39/40+ is justified to show the applicants' strong interest to apply to Top 20, especially given their traditional ORM background.

To summarize concisely, I'll break it down to ranges:

• First score < 30: retake and prepare for a balanced 30s score (you'll be good for lower/mid-tier MD)
• 30 <= first score <= 35: assess your case and goals and decide accordingly. If you score high, you'll be good for any MD school based on the rest of your application
• First score > 35: don't retake (unless a subsection is poor), or you really want to go to a Top 20 school (but you must score high >39).

 

[radioactive15]

Great responses so far.

I was more concerned with scores on the low end of the MD acceptance range barely improving on the second attempt. (27 -> 30 )

 

[Master3930]

The impact of retakes depends on how much you improved from the first score to the second. So, going from a 22 to a 37 will likely be viewed favorably, since a 15-point difference is very significant, and a 37 is a top percentile score. Likewise, going from a 23 to a 32 means you went from an applicant with dead chances to someone who stands a strong chance at all DO schools and some MD schools. Clearly, retaking the MCAT and scoring the same or worse looks bad.

Some schools average, so if you have a low first score, you may be out of luck for these schools. However, for the most part, schools look at the recent or highest score (expected to be equivalent), so strong improvements help, even though all your scores will be seen by adcoms.

Deciding to retake a 30 score depends on the situation. If a subscore is crap but the overall score is good, retaking the MCAT and scoring higher will lead to a strong, balanced score. @GrapesofRath seems to put the upper bound of MCAT retake around 33. This is substantiated in school-specific decision forums when people who did retake a 33 and received a 39 (usually as a consequence of reapplication) received much more favorable success. @efle argues that even retaking a 35 and receiving a 39/40+ is justified to show the applicants' strong interest to apply to Top 20, especially given their traditional ORM background.

To summarize concisely, I'll break it down to ranges:

• First score < 30: retake and prepare for a balanced 30s score (you'll be good for lower/mid-tier MD)
• 30 <= first score <= 35: assess your case and goals and decide accordingly. If you score high, you'll be good for any MD school based on the rest of your application
• First score > 35: don't retake (unless a subsection is poor), or you really want to go to a Top 20 school (but you must score high >39).

I agree with everything you said except the part about going from a 23--> 32 only opens doors for some MD schools, I'd say barring the elite schools, I think with the right GPA and ECs any school within reason is possible

 

[efle]

Great responses so far.

I was more concerned with scores on the low end of the MD acceptance range barely improving on the second attempt. (27 -> 30 )

A three point gain isnt barely improving! Especially in the critical 28-32 range every point counts a lot. Big diminishing returns after 33+ and essentially insignificant percentile gains 35/36+ to the point where it's pretty much unreasonable craziness how some schools keep 37/38 medians. UCSF keeping a 34ish appears to be a rare bit of sanity among the extremely elite.

 

[Doug Underhill]

The difference between 38 and 35 is about three or four questions, at least according to the AAMC practice test score conversion chart. The difference between 28 and 31 is much larger-probably about 10-15 questions.

 

[efle]

The difference between 38 and 35 is about three or four questions, at least according to the AAMC practice test score conversion chart. The difference between 28 and 31 is much larger-probably about 10-15 questions.

At a minimum it would be 3 questions; any three point drop can be seen with 3 more wrong if you're at the threshold in each section. The max difference in correct between 35 and 38 is a lot more than 3-4 questions though, gaining say 2 points in BS 11->13 and one in PS 12 ->13 could be the result of ~8 more correct. You dont get to almost always one or two question is one point until 13+ V and 14+ BS PS

 

[Goro]

It's school-specific, as pointed out above.

My school averages.

If you have a high GPA, but low initial MCAT score which you then improve during a second MCAT testing, does this dramatically lower your chances of an MD acceptance or do they strongly consider your second score and downplay the first low score?

I talking about taking it the first time and scoring the equivalent of a 27 but then retaking it and getting a 30 equivalent. Would this still ruin MD chances severely if you have a 3.7+ and solid activities?

Update: Forgot to mention that these are NOT my scores (I haven't taken it yet). Just wanted to know because I was scoring average on practice tests

 

[Doug Underhill]

It could be four, or it could be eight. Since the score table isn't released and the scoring system is obsolete now anyway, we're limited to speculation.

 

[radioactive15]

What is the accepted absolute minimum MCAT score equivalent for a US MD school? From previous posts, I gather it is 30.

Even if one has a 3.85 GPA, would a 27-29 be too low for MD? (non-URM, traditional, not the child of a dean)

 

[You're My Boy Blue]

What is the accepted absolute minimum MCAT score equivalent for a US MD school? From previous posts, I gather it is 30.

Even if one has a 3.85 GPA, would a 27-29 be too low for MD? (non-URM, traditional, not the child of a dean)

This is the problem with SDN. It is such a poor sample of the actual population. The AVERAGE at many MD schools is about 30. This means there are plenty of people with 27-29 and plenty with 31-33+. For example one mid-tier state school I talked to (ave 30) had multiple people with 24-26 and multiple people with 40+

Yes, scoring 27-29 significantly decreases your chances, but it's not the death sentence that we make it out to be

 

[efle]

This is the problem with SDN. It is such a poor sample of the actual population. The AVERAGE at many MD schools is about 30. This means there are plenty of people with 27-29 and plenty with 31-33+. For example one mid-tier state school I talked to (ave 30) had multiple people with 24-26 and multiple people with 40+

Yes, scoring 27-29 significantly decreases your chances, but it's not the death sentence that we make it out to be

But those 27-29 people were likely URM, non trad, special in some either way. If you're cookie cutter like OP describes a 27-29 is lethal for MD unless you're in a very very lucky state like New Mexico

 

[You're My Boy Blue]

But those 27-29 people were likely URM, non trad, special in some either way. If you're cookie cutter like OP describes a 27-29 is lethal for MD unless you're in a very very lucky state like New Mexico

OP has 3.7+ GPA. 45% of whites with mcat range 27-29 and gpa 3.6-3.79 were accepted. A (roughly) 50-50 shot is far from lethal. Also we don't know OPs ECs and there's plenty of time to add to these by application time

Source: the infamous table 25

 

[GrapesofRath]

What is the accepted absolute minimum MCAT score equivalent for a US MD school? From previous posts, I gather it is 30.

Even if one has a 3.85 GPA, would a 27-29 be too low for MD? (non-URM, traditional, not the child of a dean)

This is heavily state school dependent. Live in North Dakota I believe the median MCAT is 28. Florida has FSU with the 28 median MCAT. WVU who interviews 55% of in-staters has a median of 29-30. These stats its possible even a 26 can suffice.

The way it is these days there are many "lucky" states so I'm hesitant to put any cut offs. There a whole lot of KA, MO, LA, FL, NM, UT, ND, OH, WV, SC, TN type states with state schools that give strong in-state preference and where the stats aren't the highest. Honestly if you complied a list of what are considered lucky states, it would probably compromise half the states in the US(and then of course there is Texas). Hell even where I reside in PA has become somewhat of a lucky state now with the addition of TCMC that interviews about 40% of in-state applicants and has an MCAT average around 29-30.

 

[GrapesofRath]

As if the adcoms haven't been minority opinion before?

You're really grasping for straws here and not giving up in beating this dead horse. But you're dead set on whatever opinion it is that you have, let's just leave the discussion here at that.

 

[GrapesofRath]

The impact of retakes depends on how much you improved from the first score to the second. So, going from a 22 to a 37 will likely be viewed favorably, since a 15-point difference is very significant, and a 37 is a top percentile score. Likewise, going from a 23 to a 32 means you went from an applicant with dead chances to someone who stands a strong chance at all DO schools and some MD schools. Clearly, retaking the MCAT and scoring the same or worse looks bad.

Some schools average, so if you have a low first score, you may be out of luck for these schools. However, for the most part, schools look at the recent or highest score (expected to be equivalent), so strong improvements help, even though all your scores will be seen by adcoms.

Deciding to retake a 30 score depends on the situation. If a subscore is crap but the overall score is good, retaking the MCAT and scoring higher will lead to a strong, balanced score. @GrapesofRath seems to put the upper bound of MCAT retake around 33. This is substantiated in school-specific decision forums when people who did retake a 33 and received a 39 (usually as a consequence of reapplication) received much more favorable success. @efle argues that even retaking a 35 and receiving a 39/40+ is justified to show the applicants' strong interest to apply to Top 20, especially given their traditional ORM background.

To summarize concisely, I'll break it down to ranges:

• First score < 30: retake and prepare for a balanced 30s score (you'll be good for lower/mid-tier MD)
• 30 <= first score <= 35: assess your case and goals and decide accordingly. If you score high, you'll be good for any MD school based on the rest of your application
• First score > 35: don't retake (unless a subsection is poor), or you really want to go to a Top 20 school (but you must score high >39).

There's a whole lot of dangerous assumptions and statements listed here as definitive I wouldn't agree with or that aren't necessairly true.

 

[efle]

You're really grasping for straws here and not giving up in beating this dead horse. But you're dead set on whatever opinion it is that you have, let's just leave the discussion here at that.

Hows it grasping for straws? I gave a concrete example and explained why gyngyn would have the view he does considering his school. Ten bucks says you can't get LizzyM to say a 39 vs 35 has no impact, since her top private school places emphasis on numbers. My opinion is always open to change from reasonable argument - appeal to authority, incorrectly extrapolating from one or two adcom opinions, and giving no real counterpoints just doesn't fall in that category to me. I certainly do remain convinced for the moment that a cookie cutter ORM applicant has a much better shot at many top 20s if he's median +2 instead of -2.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Hows it grasping for straws? I gave a concrete example and explained why gyngyn would have the view he does considering his school. Ten bucks says you can't get LizzyM to say a 39 vs 35 has no impact, since her top private school places emphasis on numbers. My opinion is always open to change from reasonable argument - appeal to authority, incorrectly extrapolating from one or two adcom opinions, and giving no real counterpoints just doesn't fall in that category to me. I certainly do remain convinced for the moment that a cookie cutter ORM applicant has a much better shot at many top 20s if he's median +2 instead of -2.

Fine I'll bite one last time.

You've moved the goal posts and changed the argument again completely. Someone who gets a 39 in one sitting will have an advantage vs someone who has a 35. Someone who has a 35 retakes and gets a 39 is far different than someone who gets a 39 the first time and opens up a whole can of worms retaking a 35. The 35 is fine for pretty much any school in the country and for the few 38 median MCAT schools who MIGHT have an issue with it it is a HORRIBLE idea to re-take a 35 just for the purpose of trying to appease them when you consider how low anybody's chances at them are. Not to mention the chances of getting a 39 after getting a 35 are low and it is more likely that you'll either get a similar score or do worse.

That's all there is to it. Agree or disagree if you like, but there's nothing else to this discussion to be had than that.

 

[Doug Underhill]

It all depends on just how badly you want to go to Wash U. If your goal in life is to be a doctor, retaking a 35 is counterproductive. If your goal in life is to matriculate at Wash U, you may want to retake a 35, but that's kind of an odd goal.

 

[Lawpy]

There's a whole lot of dangerous assumptions and statements listed here as definitive I wouldn't agree with or that aren't necessairly true.

Sigh. Fine. Retaking slightly devalues the higher score received in the second attempt because it's not as good as achieving it the first time. However, given the higher score that actually happened the second time opens many more doors than it would happen when applying with the lower first score. We can agree on that i hope.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Sigh. Fine. Retaking slightly devalues the higher score received in the second attempt because it's not as good as achieving it the first time. However, given the higher score that actually happened the second time opens many more doors than it would happen when applying with the lower first score. We can agree on that i hope.

It's not complicated if you want to make all these elaborate posts that try and "summarize" everything and come up with "rules" this is all you need: Don't retake very good MCAT scores.

 

[efle]

Fine I'll bite one last time.

You've moved the goal posts and changed the argument again completely. Someone who gets a 39 in one sitting will have an advantage vs someone who has a 35. Someone who has a 35 retakes and gets a 39 is far different than someone who gets a 39 the first time and opens up a whole can of worms retaking a 35. The 35 is fine for pretty much any school in the country and for the few 38 median MCAT schools who MIGHT have an issue with it it is a HORRIBLE idea to re-take a 35 just for the purpose of trying to appease them when you consider how low anybody's chances at them are. Not to mention the chances of getting a 39 after getting a 35 are low and it is more likely that you'll either get a similar score or do worse.

That's all there is to it. Agree or disagree if you like, but there's nothing else to this discussion to be had than that.

;
I've meant to discuss a retaker the whole time, if the school takes most recent / highest / superscore then its 35 vs 39, if they average its 35 vs 37 (which I still believe can have a big impact on the competativeness of someone applying to places like Northwest, UChicago, Vandy, and the handful of others with 37 medians). I believe it shouldn't matter because the scores are not very separate percentile wise and are both way past the point of confidence in the person surviving MD school...but I also believe at schools like that, those 2 or 4 points do currently matter a lot for many applicants. I really have no reason to expect most other Top 20s to differ a lot from Wustl in that regard...a cookie cutter ORM applying with what's perceived as 35 vs 37 vs 39 benefits with each increase.

 

[efle]

OP has 3.7+ GPA. 45% of whites with mcat range 27-29 and gpa 3.6-3.79 were accepted. A (roughly) 50-50 shot is far from lethal. Also we don't know OPs ECs and there's plenty of time to add to these by application time

Source: the infamous table 25

I forgot to include *low median stat, heavy instate favoring public schools* along with URM and non trad and otherwise special apps. I probably think of it as a lot nastier for your odds than most because of my Californian mindset ...

 

[ridethecliche]

I don't understand why people can't fathom that retaking a 'high' score is counterproductive in some circumstances, but productive in other.

It depends on the rest of the application, as it always does.