How long are residencies?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
zoeblogrow said:
So is a residency for cardiology (physician) simply 3 years? And how about for cardiac or thoracic surgery?

Thanks
Click to expand...

becoming a cardiologist entails doing a residency in internal medicine and then a cardiology fellowship. Figure 5 years minimum, but most likely more because of most programs' research requirements.

thoracic surgery requires a general surgery residency and then a fellowship in thoracic surgery. Figure 5 years for the gen surg residency (probably more b/c of research requirements) and then another two years or more for the thoracic fellowship, probably 9 or 10 years.

best of luck.
 
How much do such residents generally earn each year? (ex. internal medicine residency, cardiology fellowship, general surgery residency, thoracic fellowship)
 
zoeblogrow said:
How much do such residents generally earn each year? (ex. internal medicine residency, cardiology fellowship, general surgery residency, thoracic fellowship)
Click to expand...

not enough. in fact, very little (i think around 30-40K if you're lucky). but you get to postpone paying off loans until after residency.
 
zoeblogrow said:
How much do such residents generally earn each year? (ex. internal medicine residency, cardiology fellowship, general surgery residency, thoracic fellowship)
Click to expand...

You start out in the 30's and each year it goes up a tiny bit, but even after a while it's still going to be around 50 max.

Oh and usually it takes 3 years internal medicine plus another 3 to be a cardiologist, then if you want to subspecialize it's more (interventional, etc.)

So salary wise it'd be something like 36, 38, 40, 43, 46, 50 as an example (varies by where you do your residency of course, but generally that's how much you can expect lol)
 
noonday said:
but you get to postpone paying off loans until after residency.
Click to expand...

There are criteria you have to meet to get a deferment. In my wife's case, she didn't satisfy the income requirement (residency paid too much compared to what she owed --by $7!!!). She had to enter repayment immediately after graduating medical school. YMMV, but caveat emptor.
 
yeah, I know a general surgery residency could run 5 years easily. Now, if you want to become a vascular or cardiothoracic surgeon you're talking another 3 or so years after residency of fellowship training. Picture that, the same amount of time it took to go from a college freshman to an M.D. is the same amount of time it takes to go from an M.D. to a card surgeon. I think for cardiology you have to do about 3 years of fellowship and maybe 4-5 years of internal medicine residency, so no matter what specialty you choose, you're looking at a pretty decent chunk of time in which to actually become a board-certified "whatever". And yeah, you'll only be making 30-40K a year. Not that it matters anyway, you could make a million a year, when you're in the hospital 24-7 it doesn't really matter.
 
Captain Fantastic said:
There are criteria you have to meet to get a deferment. In my wife's case, she didn't satisfy the income requirement (residency paid too much compared to what she owed --by $7!!!). She had to enter repayment immediately after graduating medical school. YMMV, but caveat emptor.
Click to expand...

Ouch...that hurts. Too bad she couldn't request a paycut...
 
medguy83 said:
yeah, I know a general surgery residency could run 5 years easily. Now, if you want to become a vascular or cardiothoracic surgeon you're talking another 3 or so years after residency of fellowship training. Picture that, the same amount of time it took to go from a college freshman to an M.D. is the same amount of time it takes to go from an M.D. to a card surgeon. I think for cardiology you have to do about 3 years of fellowship and maybe 4-5 years of internal medicine residency, so no matter what specialty you choose, you're looking at a pretty decent chunk of time in which to actually become a board-certified "whatever". And yeah, you'll only be making 30-40K a year. Not that it matters anyway, you could make a million a year, when you're in the hospital 24-7 it doesn't really matter.
Click to expand...

In regards to length of residencies, it can vary greatly from 3 years post-grad for some things like Peds to 5+ (usually +2 for a total of 7) for Diagnostic Rads and General Surgery. Fellowships necessarily add on to the total time of the basic training and usually range in length from 1 to 3 additional years. See http://www.ama-assn.org/vapp/freida/spcindx/0,,TR,00.html for more detail, although take some of the info (ie, work hours) with a grain of salt.

Btw, Cirrus had it correct - Cards is 3 years of IM and 3 years of Cards fellowship; you can also add on things like an EP fellowship for additional time.

While overall the salaries are generally between the mid 30s and 50s, they can go higher with fellowships and many residencies start in the 40s/50s, depending on where you live (although the cost of living differential is not often reflected in a proportionally higher salary). The salaries for all residents in the same hospital at the same PGY level are the same - that is, general surgery residents do not get paid more than the Peds residents.

Finally, it is not true that you can defer your loans all through residency. There is a fairly complicated formula used based on your salary as a resident and how much loan debt you have. It does NOT account for the cost of living in your area - when the government decided I made too much to defer loans any longer, they generously requested a monthly payment which amounted to 60% of my monthly take home pay. Needless to say, I had to renegotiate that. So in some ways it behooves you to make less and have a higher loan debt (having too little in loans will cause them to decide you can afford to start paying them back as well).
 
I wish some current residents would chime in on this thread, because it is my understanding that current starting resident pay, at least in some places, runs in the mid to high $40s or closer to $50k, not the $30s being tossed about here...still not enough money, but enough to make a difference in quality of life...
 
postbacker said:
I wish some current residents would chime in on this thread, because it is my understanding that current starting resident pay, at least in some places, runs in the mid to high $40s or closer to $50k, not the $30s being tossed about here...still not enough money, but enough to make a difference in quality of life...
Click to expand...

The differences in pay reflect the differences in cost of living. For example, I took a look at how much residencies pay in Michigan compared to Texas and they were about $5000 higher. However, Michigan is much more expensive than Texas ($3.39 for gas compared to $2.81 in TX, $300,000 house in MI costs only $160,00 in TX), so you aren't going to avoid having it rough.
 
postbacker said:
I wish some current residents would chime in on this thread, because it is my understanding that current starting resident pay, at least in some places, runs in the mid to high $40s or closer to $50k, not the $30s being tossed about here...still not enough money, but enough to make a difference in quality of life...
Click to expand...

See my post above...

you are right, in many places, interns start out at least at 40 if not closer to 50 K per year and go up from there. In places like New York and California, the salaries tend to be higher than in the "fly over states"...but the cost of living in those places are cheaper as well. So while it may be the case that you'll start at a higher wage, it depends greatly on where you do your residency, even programs in the same town can pay differently.

By way of a real world example, I started many years ago in the mid 30s, finished residency at 50 and fellowship at near 60 (different hospital so the pay scale was better).
 
I am Hans said:
Finally, it is not true that you can defer your loans all through residency. There is a fairly complicated formula used based on your salary as a resident and how much loan debt you have. It does NOT account for the cost of living in your area - when the government decided I made too much to defer loans any longer, they generously requested a monthly payment which amounted to 60% of my monthly take home pay. Needless to say, I had to renegotiate that. So in some ways it behooves you to make less and have a higher loan debt (having too little in loans will cause them to decide you can afford to start paying them back as well).
Click to expand...

While a deferment is based on an economic hardship calculation, I thought you could always request a forbearance during residency and fellowship. You don't have to pay a dime with either, but the interest accumulates with a forbearance. Signing for more loans just to have more debt doesn't really make financial sense.
 
this site will let you search for programs near you and look at the length in time, the salary offered for that particular program as well as benefits (vacation, maternity, insurance, etc)

http://www.ama-assn.org/vapp/freida/srch/
 
I am Hans said:
Finally, it is not true that you can defer your loans all through residency. There is a fairly complicated formula used based on your salary as a resident and how much loan debt you have. It does NOT account for the cost of living in your area - when the government decided I made too much to defer loans any longer, they generously requested a monthly payment which amounted to 60% of my monthly take home pay. Needless to say, I had to renegotiate that. So in some ways it behooves you to make less and have a higher loan debt (having too little in loans will cause them to decide you can afford to start paying them back as well).
Click to expand...

Exactly what we experienced, only the government decided she wasn't eligible from the get go. We decided to consolidate and amortize over 30 years to keep the payment down and manageble while she was in residency.
 
to the OP, cardiothoracic surgery includes first a general surgery residency (6 years) then a cardiothoracic fellowship (2 years). you can then sub-sub-specialize, say, in peds cardiothor, which another 2 years of fellowship.

all in all, 10 years after medical school 🙂.
 
Dr Durden said:
The interest accumulates with a fellowship.
Click to expand...

Interest accrues during all periods of forbearance including residency. I believe the interest can be added to the prinicpal (i.e., capitalized). This means when you finally enter repayment, your loans have grown since you essentially financed your interest. Double whammy. Of course, you could also choose to make interest only payments during the forbearance to keep this from happening.

Interest does not accrue on subsidized loans during deferment.

Interest accrues on unsubsidized loans during deferment (i.e., no different than forbearance).
 
neurochic said:
to the OP, cardiothoracic surgery includes first a general surgery residency (6 years) then a cardiothoracic fellowship (2 years). you can then sub-sub-specialize, say, in peds cardiothor, which another 2 years of fellowship.

all in all, 10 years after medical school 🙂.
Click to expand...

Just being pendantic but since its been mentioned twice above: General Surgery residency is not 6 years. It is a minimum of 5 at most programs, with some programs requiring 2 years of research. Most people who spend "voluntary" time in a research lab do so for 2 years; so realistically, general surgery is 5 years in length with an additional two years for those who are interested in research, academics or a competitive fellowship (of which CT is not currently).
 
Dr Durden said:
While a deferment is based on an economic hardship calculation, I thought you could always request a forbearance during residency and fellowship. You don't have to pay a dime with either, but the interest accumulates with a forbearance. Signing for more loans just to have more debt doesn't really make financial sense.
Click to expand...

You can go into forebearance which is exactly what I did. I did decide to pay the interest while I could, but was unable to do so in fellowship (even though I was making more, my rent and COL was significantly more).

In regards to your last statement, I wasn't advocating taking out more loans just to avoid paying them off during residency but rather pointing out some of the idiocy in the system which penalizes those who take out less in loans by requiring them to pay them back unless they go into forebearance. Believe me, while it sounds good, watching the interest accrue on your non-sub loans at hundreds of dollars per month is pretty sobering.
 
Hey iamhans, I'm not sure where you got your info -- my numbers reflect the residency/fellowship process at my institution and that of a CT surgeon I shadowed. I'll PM you and would be happy to discuss the numbers because I'm actually interested, as I've considered a career in CT surgery.
 
neurochic said:
Hey iamhans, I'm not sure where you got your info -- my numbers reflect the residency/fellowship process at my institution and that of a CT surgeon I shadowed. I'll PM you and would be happy to discuss the numbers because I'm actually interested, as I've considered a career in CT surgery.
Click to expand...

Without divulging my identity, I got my information as I am a general surgery attending who is quite familiar with the training process, including that leading to CT.

I understand that in your experience in California (where I am originally from BTW), you may have seen general surgery be 6 years, but that is not a requirement of the American College of Surgeons, but rather may be an insitutional requirement.

A search of the allopathic programs on FREIDA reveals that of 18 general surgery programs in California only Cedars requires 6 years - a decidely unusual number; Stanford, UCLA, UCSF and Harbor are the only programs which require 7 years (which is the more usual length for programs that require lab time). The rest are 5 year programs. Note that this is 5 clinical years - some may choose programs or choose pathways which require lab/research time, but the amount of time required for Board Eligibility in general surgery, as well as the entry into all general surgery fellowships (which require that you be BE in general surgery) is 5 years in length. I cannot comment on the length of osteopathic surgery programs in detail, but in general they are also 5 years in length.

While I understand that your experience may be different, it would be incorrect to claim that general surgery is 6 years in length, because at the VAST majority of US programs, both allopathic and osteopathic, the required length is 5 years. Since CT surgery is no longer as competitive as it once was, it is debatable as to whether or not someone needs to do lab years to be considered for a fellowship.

Hope that clarifies things.
 
How long is the training for opthal? 5 years?

What about derm?

Is emergency med 4 years residency?
 
Here is a good website for information on training.

http://www.aamc.org/students/cim/specialties.htm

I read the link for Obstetrics and gynocology and it says:

"According to the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology, the number of U.S. medical school graduates entering residency programs in obstetrics and gynecology has declined over the past 6 years, in both numbers and percentage of graduates."

Is this because of malpractice suits? They seem to be very well compensated.
 
iamhans: thanks for the clarification and thorough response. i appreciate it.
 
postbacker said:
I wish some current residents would chime in on this thread, because it is my understanding that current starting resident pay, at least in some places, runs in the mid to high $40s or closer to $50k, not the $30s being tossed about here...still not enough money, but enough to make a difference in quality of life...
Click to expand...

We started off at $41k as interns, and the pay goes up around $2500 each year. Cost of living here is quite reasonable (compared to most other major cities).

I am Hans said:
Since CT surgery is no longer as competitive as it once was, it is debatable as to whether or not someone needs to do lab years to be considered for a fellowship.
Click to expand...

🙁

<--- See "Lab rat" under username
 
postbacker said:
...it is my understanding that current starting resident pay, at least in some places, runs in the mid to high $40s or closer to $50k, not the $30s being tossed about here...still not enough money, but enough to make a difference in quality of life...
Click to expand...

In general the starting figures I've seen tend to be high thirties to low forties (depending on geography and specialty). Bet on around 40k -- it will probably change a bit by the time you get there anyhow, though. (I've not heard of residents starting anywhere close to $50k). This goes up a few grand each year through residency, and a slightly bigger bump for fellowship, but you still won't be earning anything close to a competitive income until you complete your fellowship and join the ranks of private practice. Which is why you don't go into medicine for the money -- you will be old and gray before they give you any.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Firephoenix938
How BS are ranking sites?
Replies
18
Views
2K
FlowRate
FlowRate
H
How important are Work and Activity Descriptions?
Replies
10
Views
2K
LizzyM
LizzyM
E
how are my ECs? current sophomore
Replies
5
Views
1K
deleted1208015
D
FutureDOCTORR123456789
How are my EC'S going into sophomore year
Replies
4
Views
586
eigen
eigen
L
Realistically how long would this take me?
Replies
9
Views
1K
listenerpastry
L
Top