How low is too low?

[Temperature101]

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^MedPR, the standardized tests down the road are nothing like the MCAT.

Those tests, eg, USMLE, board exams, are designed to see if you know it or not, kind of like the gimme discretes on the MCAT. It is not designed to trip you up with convoluted passages, convoluted wording, or trick you. I have a good GPA, however I have never had a science test in my entire undergrad with 3-4 confusing paragraphs to read and then answer based on them. All of my science exams to date have been like discrete questions.

I have never even had an English test like that (all of my English exams focused on writing essays, sometimes identifying quotes).

So it does not surprise me in the least that someone can do very well "in the real world" and not do well on the MCAT.

The MCAT is simply not comparable to any science test out there really. I mean, think about the DAT or the PCAT...they are composed of pure discretes...the USMLE and board exams are composed of pure discretes as well.

I know quite a bit of foreign doctors who can't even compose a coherent email who have been working in the USA since forever...let me see how they would do on the passage dense MCAT, probably not very well.

I agree with you. I know an infectious disease physician who got into SGU 15+ years ago with a 2.6 GPA and 20 mcat. He is probably one the best infectious disease doc where I live.

 

[racerwad]

Well we can agree to disagree. I was basing this based on input my family members told me. I still don't think doing well on the MCAT correlates to a good USMLE or board score or even a successful future as a physician. My parents never took the MCAT and they had Step 1s of 99 percentile so...then again that was 20 years ago, maybe the exam changed.

From the board questions I have seen in my parent's review book, the questions are discrete in that the question stem provides all the info you need, there isn't blocks of text outside the question of which a lot of it is unnecessary.

It seems like others have addressed this but you are profoundly wrong. Basing any decision on the 20+ year old anecdotal experience of others, even if it is Mom and Dad, is insane.

You know that there are modern review books you can peruse: http://amzn.to/MQtzue


The fact that they "never took the MCAT" means any comparisons they may make is pure conjecture, anyway. And why do people keep suggesting that there isn't a relationship (albeit small) between MCAT score, USMLE (specifically Step 1) and medical school performance? Doing well on the MCAT means you're good at taking standardized tests. All of the boards are standardized, and while most regular exams in medical school aren't they mimic the style. This isn't to say that you won't be a good doctor. But you will probably struggle along the way.

The Predictive Validity of the MCAT for Medical School Performance and Medical Board Licensing Examinations: A Meta-Analysis of the Published Research.

Anyhow, I am not trying to crush dreams. I'm just saying it doesn't get easier once you get in. As long as you know that, you won't be disappointed. 😉

 

[Cloud 9]

You reason like someone with a low MCAT score.

The claim: MCAT score correlates to USMLE performance.

Your response: Anecdote, 2 individuals took USMLE and performed well, did not take MCAT, therefore claim is false.

Me: *brain explodes* Did you ever think they might have performed well on the MCAT if they had taken it... EHHHH???? HOW IS YOUR RESPONSE ANSWERING THE CLAIM AHHH.... I'm sorry I'm not usually this harsh but your "reasoning" is just so awful that it hurts.

P.S. there is data showing USMLE and MCAT scores correlate, too lazy to find the link. also, 24 MCAT is going to be on the low end for this cycle, apply at the really really low end schools like pikeville and the newer schools as well as a couple reaches.

I have no MCAT score, I haven't taken it yet.

They would not do well because they are foreigners, so their English wasn't great and even today they're not very good at MCAT questions...

What scores did your parents get? How do you know they scored in the 99th percentile? Do you have the data to support that? The 2 digit score is not a percentile score. Never was, if that's what you are referring to.

I posted a link to current sample questions. The fact that your parents took the test 20 years ago and you're using that as an example shows how simple minded and uninformed you are.

Lol dude you really need to chill out...this was a simple thread asking for experiences of people who got into DO school with lower MCAT scores. Why are you getting so worked up over that and bashing people with lower MCAT scores who got in? ...and no I don't know their scores, that's all they told me. I know someone today who is a reproductive endocrinologist and she was very average in her overseas medical school with poor English skills as well. I don't think she would have done well on the MCAT either.

I agree with you. I know an infectious disease physician who got into SGU 15+ years ago with a 2.6 GPA and 20 mcat. He is probably one the best infectious disease doc where I live.

Thanks for your input, I see this all the time, especially in the rural area that I live in. Lots and lots of foreign doctors...

 

[MedPR]

I have no MCAT score, I haven't taken it yet.

They would not do well because they are foreigners, so there English wasn't great and even today they're not very good at MCAT questions...



Lol dude you really need to chill out...this was a simple thread asking for experiences of people who got into DO school with lower MCAT scores. Why are you getting so worked up over that and bashing people with lower MCAT scores who got in? ...and no I don't know their scores, that's all they told me. I know someone today who is a reproductive endocrinologist and she was very average in her overseas medical school with poor English skills as well. I don't think she would have done well on the MCAT either.



Thanks for your input, I see this all the time, especially in the rural area that I live in. Lots and lots of foreign doctors...

First and foremost, I disagree that being a "foreigner" automatically means they wouldn't do well on the MCAT. Sure, not speaking english fluently puts them at a disadvantage, but that doesn't take them out of the game completely.


I'm not bashing anyone with any score. There is data to support that MCAT/USMLE Step 1 are slightly correlated. I've said before that if someone works really hard in school/MCAT and doesn't perform well, they might need to take a step back and assess if they can really make it through medical school. It's a hard truth, but things don't get any easier once you're in.

I don't know what it would be like to take the MCAT as an ESL student, but I also haven't made any statements saying that a low MCAT score means you'll be unsuccessful as a physician.

My point is this. People get caught in wanting to go to medical school so badly that they don't consider whether or not they will be able to be successful. Hard work and desire play a role in your success, but they can only take you so far. All I've tried to do is encourage people to be realistic. Am I saying that a 3.0/21 can't make it through and become a great physician? Of course not. Is the likelihood of failure for a hard working 3.0/21 higher than a hard working 4.0/43? I think so.

 

[Cloud 9]

First and foremost, I disagree that being a "foreigner" automatically means they wouldn't do well on the MCAT. Sure, not speaking english fluently puts them at a disadvantage, but that doesn't take them out of the game completely.

I'm not bashing anyone with any score. There is data to support that MCAT/USMLE Step 1 are slightly correlated. I've said before that if someone works really hard in school/MCAT and doesn't perform well, they might need to take a step back and assess if they can really make it through medical school. It's a hard truth, but things don't get any easier once you're in.

I don't know what it would be like to take the MCAT as an ESL student, but I also haven't made any statements saying that a low MCAT score means you'll be unsuccessful as a physician.

My point is this. People get caught in wanting to go to medical school so badly that they don't consider whether or not they will be able to be successful. Hard work and desire play a role in your success, but they can only take you so far. All I've tried to do is encourage people to be realistic. Am I saying that a 3.0/21 can't make it through and become a great physician? Of course not. Is the likelihood of failure for a hard working 3.0/21 higher than a hard working 4.0/43? I think so.

Great points and thank you for being civil and not resorting to condescending remarks... 🙂 It is entirely possible that foreigners can work hard and achieve a great score on the MCAT, I have seen that too. And yes there is a slight correlation between higher MCAT scores and USMLE scores but it certainly does not imply causation.

And why do people keep suggesting that there isn't a relationship (albeit small) between MCAT score, USMLE (specifically Step 1) and medical school performance? Doing well on the MCAT means you're good at taking standardized tests. All of the boards are standardized, and while most regular exams in medical school aren't they mimic the style. This isn't to say that you won't be a good doctor. But you will probably struggle along the way.

Racerwad, I will politely disagree with your post, I don't think scoring low on the MCAT implies you will struggle on the path to being a physician.

Case in point (yes, n = 1, but it's what I know): My brother got a great MCAT score (35) and he has something like a 2.96 science GPA. He is unfocused, he does not turn in homework, does not care about school, he is careless, forgets things, and honestly if you asked him to explain how he did well, he won't be able to tell you. He is great at knowing which answers to pick (?) on standardized tests but he is not a good student and many doubt he will be a good physician. He even has been regarded as sociopathic at times.

I believe he will struggle much more than someone who can foster good relationships with people, than someone who can work steadily and consistently, or someone who can work on a task for a lengthy amount of time and not get bored and start performing a sloppy job.

 

[Dmr6186]

Don't medical schools formally prepare you to take the USMLE exams? Compared to the MCAT, which is mostly through self-disciplined freelance study? I think that alone breaks the correlation between MCAT and USMLE. I know for myself I would've done much better on the MCAT had I been able to have a formal prep (good GPA but 28 MCAT. Yuck) than a couple months of studying books on my own.

 

[user3]

24 is mediocre at best, but with an average matriculant score of 26.5 it isn't that far off the mark. I honestly think that if their overall and science GPA are over 3.0, they have a shot. There are people on last years UD thread with like 3.2's and 23-24 that had multiple interviews. I even remember reading a thread from years back where someone with a 3.09 and 24 was getting so many interviews they were declining some!

 

[oms2]

Don't medical schools formally prepare you to take the USMLE exams?

it depends on the school. some schools make their class exams like board questions and pay for your prep materials and access to question banks. some schools just give you a few weeks off and let you sink or swim.

 

[UrshumMurshum]

24 is mediocre at best, but with an average matriculant score of 26.5 it isn't that far off the mark. I honestly think that if their overall and science GPA are over 3.0, they have a shot. There are people on last years UD thread with like 3.2's and 23-24 that had multiple interviews. I even remember reading a thread from years back where someone with a 3.09 and 24 was getting so many interviews they were declining some!

Note it has been getting more competitive every year.

Though the new schools might be more open to taking people with lower than average stats.

 

[The kitchen sink]

Don't medical schools formally prepare you to take the USMLE exams? Compared to the MCAT, which is mostly through self-disciplined freelance study? I think that alone breaks the correlation between MCAT and USMLE. I know for myself I would've done much better on the MCAT had I been able to have a formal prep (good GPA but 28 MCAT. Yuck) than a couple months of studying books on my own.

Most medical schools, at least mine, do NOT formally prepare you to take the USMLE/COMLEX. They teach you what they believe will enable you to become better physician in terms of pre-clinical education. Usually, this encompasses what is on the boards + MORE, because the boards test the higher yield concepts in general and medical school teaches you that and MORE because there is more to medicine than just high yield obviously.

Also, the MCAT and USMLE/COMLEX are just different tests in my opinion. The trend I see is that people usually become more mature as they experience the first 2 years of medical school and get their act together (as oppose to the time when they were studying for MCAT/completing undergrad coursework) and work hard and study for boards. Not always the case, but definetly applicable to a bunch of cases. Therefore, I see no correlation between MCAT and Step 1 board scores, except whether you applied the same or more work ethic to one or both. Of course being naturally smart and a good 'test-taker' will help, but the stuff under our control is how hard we work so that is the sliding scale.

 

[racerwad]

Racerwad, I will politely disagree with your post, I don't think scoring low on the MCAT implies you will struggle on the path to being a physician.

Case in point (yes, n = 1, but it's what I know): My brother got a great MCAT score (35) and he has something like a 2.96 science GPA. He is unfocused, he does not turn in homework, does not care about school, he is careless, forgets things, and honestly if you asked him to explain how he did well, he won't be able to tell you. He is great at knowing which answers to pick (?) on standardized tests but he is not a good student and many doubt he will be a good physician. He even has been regarded as sociopathic at times.

I believe he will struggle much more than someone who can foster good relationships with people, than someone who can work steadily and consistently, or someone who can work on a task for a lengthy amount of time and not get bored and start performing a sloppy job.

Anecdotes does not equal evidence. If you believe otherwise, you'll do well in OMM class

Anyhow, you are missing my point. When I said struggle, I only meant in the context of doing as well as you'd like in classes, specifically pre-clinical years. Obviously, someone who has poor social skills but is a good test taker will only do well when tests are emphasized (ie-medical school pre-clinical years). Beyond that, they will probably struggle a lot.

The other, soft-skill stuff (like patient encounters, history taking, etc) are totally independent of MCAT/standardized test taking ability. You might dominate in this area.

USMLE/COMLEX both use passage based questions, as do many medical school exams. If you struggled on the MCAT because of this, you will struggle when you encounter similar style questions in other standardized tests.

All things being equal, if you suck at taking tests, a training regime that involves a lot of tests will be difficult. That does not mean you won't finish or that you won't be a great doctor. The outcomes (of graduating medical school) are independent of the experience in this case. I just meant that you might put in 110% effort each test and yet still miss >25% of the questions; that feeling sucks (I know!) and that suckiness translates into a "struggle".

As someone who hasn't moved on to the next stage, I suggest you relax and listen to some of what those of us on the other side have to share. Our advice is all anecdotal, too, but at least it's useful based upon its context.

Good luck.