How many hours/week = how much $$$?

[Shodddy18]

Let me preface this question by saying that I did not go into medicine to get rich, but being able to live a comfortable lifestyle after residency in a field that will put me ~$250,000 in debt was a as much a factor factor when I decided to enter med school as it is now when I'm trying to decide between FM and EM.

And also, I have used the search function, and after reviewing the first ten pages of results, I decided to start a new thread.

I'm just curious what the average income is for a family medicine physician who does OB is, and what the average number of hours per week one would have to work to make said income.

I don't feel comfortable walking up to the family practice docs I'm rotating with and asking them how many hours they work and how much money that makes them, so I'm hoping the anonymity of SDN will help me to get some answers. I'm happy to hear from other med students and FM residents, and I would especially like to hear from any soon to graduate / recent residency graduates as to what offers you have had, and also attendings.

Like I said, I'm trying to decide between EM and FP. I am leaning towards FP right now. I have an entire excel file comparing the pros and cons to each and most of my questions are very easily answered except the money question. Basically I just want to know if its common/easy to make the $190K-$200k that I would make in Emergency Medicine working less than 60 hours per week in family medicine.

Thanks for your time.

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[Faebinder]

Pay per hour is better for EM.... but when comparing EM vs FM with OB then the pay is pretty close.

FM with OB has the advantage of you downgrading your stress and career work hours later in your life..... You can slow down to 40 hours per week and make decent living to not care...

EM has the advantage that you will not work many hours to begin with but of course there is the disadvantage of working 12 hours every other day... that is really taxing when you are 50 but if you are up for it... then go EM.

 

[deleted87716]

The short answer is, yes...you can earn $200,000/year in family medicine working a 40-hour week. However, it's not going to fall into your lap.

According to this survey, the average income for FP w/OB after three years of practice is $204,000. You can find information regarding work hours here, although I couldn't find any specific mention of OB hours.

Personally, I think ER docs earn any extra money they get. You couldn't pay me enough.

 

[Shodddy18]

Thank you very much for your response. I had seen that survey reporting average salary being $204,000 for FM w/ OB, but I didnt know the average work hours. I had just heard lots of stuff about FM docs working huge numbers of hours weekly, and since I dont want to work more than 50 hours per week I didnt know where this would have put me on that scale.

The short answer is, yes...you can earn $200,000/year in family medicine working a 40-hour week. However, it's not going to fall into your lap.

According to this survey, the average income for FP w/OB after three years of practice is $204,000. You can find information regarding work hours here, although I couldn't find any specific mention of OB hours.

Personally, I think ER docs earn any extra money they get. You couldn't pay me enough.

 

[iatrosB]

Let me preface this question by saying that I did not go into medicine to get rich, but being able to live a comfortable lifestyle after residency in a field that will put me ~$250,000 in debt was a as much a factor factor when I decided to enter med school as it is now when I'm trying to decide between FM and EM.

And also, I have used the search function, and after reviewing the first ten pages of results, I decided to start a new thread.

I'm just curious what the average income is for a family medicine physician who does OB is, and what the average number of hours per week one would have to work to make said income.

I don't feel comfortable walking up to the family practice docs I'm rotating with and asking them how many hours they work and how much money that makes them, so I'm hoping the anonymity of SDN will help me to get some answers. I'm happy to hear from other med students and FM residents, and I would especially like to hear from any soon to graduate / recent residency graduates as to what offers you have had, and also attendings.

Like I said, I'm trying to decide between EM and FP. I am leaning towards FP right now. I have an entire excel file comparing the pros and cons to each and most of my questions are very easily answered except the money question. Basically I just want to know if its common/easy to make the $190K-$200k that I would make in Emergency Medicine working less than 60 hours per week in family medicine.

Thanks for your time.

Good questions. Many of us share the same concerns/interest. Something to keep in mind as well, it is easier to get your loans paid back as an FM doc than EM (I mean someone else paying for them), that is my experience so far anyway.

 

[sophiejane]

EM basically is FM without continuity, unless you are in a major trauma center, even then, the trauma guys/gals usually get all the glory (flame away, EMers, I know it's coming).

So...why are leaning away from EM? It's guaranteed shift work, meets your <50 hours/week requirement, and your starting salary will be in the range you are looking for. It's all the primary care you could possibly want, plus the odd dramatic moment here and there.

If working fewer hours really is your main concern, there are plenty of things you can do besides Family. And family with OB, to be making >200K, you are going to be taking a fair amount of call and having to do several deliveries a month at the very least...which will likely put you over 50 hours/week.

 

[Shodddy18]

EM basically is FM without continuity, unless you are in a major trauma center, even then, the trauma guys/gals usually get all the glory (flame away, EMers, I know it's coming).

So...why are leaning away from EM? It's guaranteed shift work, meets your <50 hours/week requirement, and your starting salary will be in the range you are looking for. It's all the primary care you could possibly want, plus the odd dramatic moment here and there.

If working fewer hours really is your main concern, there are plenty of things you can do besides Family. And family with OB, to be making >200K, you are going to be taking a fair amount of call and having to do several deliveries a month at the very least...which will likely put you over 50 hours/week.

Again, thank you all for your posts. I have the exact same opinion about EM, and the type of patients I would be likely to see. The thing is I have a feeling I would probably get sick of it and burn out in ten years or so and start hating my job. If I did an EM residency, I really would not have many other options besides EM and urgent care. If I do an FP residency, I can still work as an EM doc if I deside (I will be living in Maine... not working at our one trauma center) and then change back to FP or one of of the many other things family docs can do. If I get sick of OB i can stop doing it, if I want a change of pace I can do more. I could do all sorts of office based procedures... circs, culps, endo bx's, vasectomies, etc. Besides, in rural areas of Maine (anywhere north of Portland) FP docs make better EM docs because they can do more without just turfing it off to another specialist.

Anyways, thats where my mind is now... basically, I would have more options! Like I said, I dont want to get rich, I just want to make sure I will be able to lead a comfortable life style and pay of my gynormous amount of debt.

 

[deleted87716]

Based on what you've said you'd like to do, it sounds to me like an FM residency will give you the broad scope and flexibility that you're looking for.

I'm not sure that rural Maine is necessarily the place to go if you're looking to be at the top of the income heap, but I'm sure you can find a gig there that makes you happy. That's more important than a few extra bucks any day.

 

[Marigold]

Again, thank you all for your posts. I have the exact same opinion about EM, and the type of patients I would be likely to see. The thing is I have a feeling I would probably get sick of it and burn out in ten years or so and start hating my job. If I did an EM residency, I really would not have many other options besides EM and urgent care. If I do an FP residency, I can still work as an EM doc if I deside (I will be living in Maine... not working at our one trauma center) and then change back to FP or one of of the many other things family docs can do. If I get sick of OB i can stop doing it, if I want a change of pace I can do more. I could do all sorts of office based procedures... circs, culps, endo bx's, vasectomies, etc. Besides, in rural areas of Maine (anywhere north of Portland) FP docs make better EM docs because they can do more without just turfing it off to another specialist.

Anyways, thats where my mind is now... basically, I would have more options! Like I said, I dont want to get rich, I just want to make sure I will be able to lead a comfortable life style and pay of my gynormous amount of debt.

Those are a lot of the same reasons why I want to be an FM doc. Flexibility, great variety of patients/problems/procedures if I want them. And so far, I really can't remember meeting any FM doc who wasn't happy in their career...but I've met folks in lots of other specialties who weren't happy.

From the post above, it sounds to me like you'd be happier in FM. And I agree with Kent, finding a gig that makes you HAPPY is pretty priceless. Best of luck!!

 

[FPforLife]

If your looking to make more than $200 K a year in maine look into caribou. Know adoc there that makes $225 K without OB. Of course you have to live in caribou which is very nice in the summer but wicked cold in the winter.

Also it's not that hard to make $200K as an FP w/o OB if you do alot of procedures. B/c your original comment I'm assuming your attending UNECOM. If you do OMM on most of your pt's you can easily double your income and if your good it doesn't take that much time. And if your like me and inject anything that moves you can make even more, just do a rotation with a good rheumatologist, the othopods need some competition anyway

 

[Shodddy18]

If your looking to make more than $200 K a year in maine look into caribou. Know adoc there that makes $225 K without OB. Of course you have to live in caribou which is very nice in the summer but wicked cold in the winter.

Also it's not that hard to make $200K as an FP w/o OB if you do alot of procedures. B/c your original comment I'm assuming your attending UNECOM. If you do OMM on most of your pt's you can easily double your income and if your good it doesn't take that much time. And if your like me and inject anything that moves you can make even more, just do a rotation with a good rheumatologist, the othopods need some competition anyway

Yes I am an osteopath, and do lots of OMM, will do lots of procedures and injections. The plan is to work 50 hours/week ish, and maybe moonlight in an ER once a week or so. I may also look into a full time ER position for a few years... not sure yet. I know... if I do that why not just do an ER residency... so when I get sick of it I can go back to doing other things I love.

 

[deleted6669]

just remember that fm with ob= lots of after hrs call depending on the size of the group. in a small group you may be on call q 3 or q4 and in a larger group it might be q7-q14 or so...just something to think about. a good friend of mine is an fm doc who does ob and sometimes he gets a little burnt if all the deliveries end up happening on his call nights( he does q 3 ob call).

 

[YouDontKnowJack]

Also it's not that hard to make $200K as an FP w/o OB if you do alot of procedures. B/c your original comment I'm assuming your attending UNECOM. If you do OMM on most of your pt's you can easily double your income and if your good it doesn't take that much time. And if your like me and inject anything that moves you can make even more, just do a rotation with a good rheumatologist, the othopods need some competition anyway

I've been thinking about this questions as well.

The average posted is $200000 w/ OB. But being an average, that means there are a ton of people making over 200k.

So, would I be right in saying that it is common to find FP's netting over 200k per year?


And what are some examples of good paying "procedures" I keep hearing about? botox, since we're talking injections?


Are there super-family-doctors who know how to treat everything?
I mean, if an fp knew so much about dermatology, he could treat the crap without having to refer to a dermatologist, right?


and another thing, FP w/ OB means you pay higher malpractice. bad.

 

[deleted87716]

So, would I be right in saying that it is common to find FP's netting over 200k per year?

I would say so.

Are there super-family-doctors who know how to treat everything?
I mean, if an fp knew so much about dermatology, he could treat the crap without having to refer to a dermatologist, right?

Nobody knows or treats "everything," but there are many of us who refer far less than others.

 

[YouDontKnowJack]

do fp's get reimbursed the same as specialists?

let's say someone has a skin dz. both the dermatologist and the fp get the same $$$ if pt were to go either of them?


i don't know if i've heard correctly. but why do people say the FP gets jacked by insurance companies the most?

 

[deleted87716]

do fp's get reimbursed the same as specialists?

Generally, no. Typically, everything from the patient's co-payment to the reimbursement for office-based CPT codes is higher for most specialties. I'm sure this is intended to reflect the added complexity implied by the need to see a specialist in the first place, but let's face it...many of them are seeing a lot of the same crap we are. That's why it's a gravy train, especially if they hire PAs and crank the patients through just like primary care (which is what most of them are doing nowadays.) Some of the RVUs for primary care were recently increased by CMS, so there are indications that some of the inequities in this system are being addressed. We'll see.

Procedures typically reimburse the same no matter who does them, however. That's one reason for the interest amongst primary care physicians.

 

[YouDontKnowJack]

Generally, no. Typically, everything from the patient's co-payment to the reimbursement for office-based CPT codes is higher for most specialties. I'm sure this is intended to reflect the added complexity implied by the need to see a specialist in the first place, but let's face it...many of them are seeing a lot of the same crap we are. That's why it's a gravy train, especially if they hire PAs and crank the patients through just like primary care (which is what most of them are doing nowadays.) Some of the RVUs for primary care were recently increased by CMS, so there are indications that some of the inequities in this system are being addressed. We'll see.

Procedures typically reimburse the same no matter who does them, however. That's one reason for the interest amongst primary care physicians.

ok, so the derm gets more than the fp for dispensing accutane to the kid with zits?


what are some examples of procedures that get reimbursed equally?

 

[Slitherin]

A family physician that lectured to us about the business of FM said that under the capitation system she is on that pays extra for procedures she was reimbursed 150 or so for a punch biopsy, and the insurance was happy to have her do it because if she referred to derm the derm would be reimbursed 400 or so.

 

[deleted87716]

I can only answer in general...there will always be plan-specific variations.

 

[YouDontKnowJack]

A family physician that lectured to us about the business of FM said that under the capitation system she is on that pays extra for procedures she was reimbursed 150 or so for a punch biopsy, and the insurance was happy to have her do it because if she referred to derm the derm would be reimbursed 400 or so.

good to know that the lowly doc is at least getting some decent money doing a quick procedure. still, 400 vs 150 is totally unfair.