How many interviews is necessary?

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Considering only 10 U.S. Seniors (allopathic fourth years) did not match in Pathology last year, I'm contemplating how many interviews are really necessary. Looking at Charting Outcomes (link below), 7 of the non-matchers ranked 1 or 2 programs. Another pair of individuals ranked 7 and 8 programs and did not match. An additional person ranked 16+ programs and did not match (weird).

I have 9 interviews scheduled. I'm seriously considering whittling that down to 7 to save about $650. Both of these programs are good, but I will probably not rank in my top 5.

I was wondering how other applicants are approaching their interview schedule.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2011.pdf

 

[mlw03]

Answering this question requires an honest assessment of yourself as a candidate. If you're a good candidates, 5 interviews is plenty. Weaker ones need more, and still may not match as you see. I stopped myself at around 10, figuring I'd match and not really being that interested in the programs I had scheduled in January (didn't see myself fitting in at any of the Boston programs which I'd clustered).

If you have a step 1 above 230, decent grades, and can present yourself as a normal American, 9 interviews should be fine.

 

[KeratinPearls]

Considering only 10 U.S. Seniors (allopathic fourth years) did not match in Pathology last year, I'm contemplating how many interviews are really necessary. Looking at Charting Outcomes (link below), 7 of the non-matchers ranked 1 or 2 programs. Another pair of individuals ranked 7 and 8 programs and did not match. An additional person ranked 16+ programs and did not match (weird).

I have 9 interviews scheduled. I'm seriously considering whittling that down to 7 to save about $650. Both of these programs are good, but I will probably not rank in my top 5.

I was wondering how other applicants are approaching their interview schedule.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2011.pdf

Depends on how competitive your application is and how competitive are the programs you are applying to. If you are an American grad (MD), you should be fine.

 

[LADoc00]

Answering this question requires an honest assessment of yourself as a candidate. If you're a good candidates, 5 interviews is plenty. Weaker ones need more, and still may not match as you see. I stopped myself at around 10, figuring I'd match and not really being that interested in the programs I had scheduled in January (didn't see myself fitting in at any of the Boston programs which I'd clustered).

If you have a step 1 above 230, decent grades, and can present yourself as a normal American, 9 interviews should be fine.

9 interviews?! Crap. That is alot of cash you are probably just heaping on top of your likely already mega loan balance...

I guess if money and time are no object sure but I would think 4-5 is fine. Heck, I literally went to 3 interviews.

 

[Euchromatin]

I think the year I was interviewing there was some bar graph in an NRMP document from the previous year's match that stratified people based on their Step 1 scores and listed how many programs they had to rank in order for X% (i.e. 95%, 98%, 100%) to match. I can't remember if it was pathology specific or for all specialties overall. I think for my step score the cutoff at which 100% matched was 11 programs in the ROL. So I went along with the data and applied to about 15 or so and picked 11 of those to schedule interviews. But I got really sick of interviewing around the end of November and bailed on the last few.

Unless your step scores are kinda iffy and the only places you've applied to are snobby big name academic places like JHU, MGH, etc. I would think that 5 to 7 places would probably be sufficient.

 

[bauber]

I'm going on 8. Been to 4 in state and now have 4 out of state coming up. I haven't spent a ton of money on the process, around 1300 so far, most of which was a 700 dollar plane ticket to the west coast.

 

[bauber]

.

 

[mlw03]

I'm going on 8. Been to 4 in state and now have 4 out of state coming up. I haven't spent a ton of money on the process, around 1300 so far, most of which was a 700 dollar plane ticket to the west coast.

1300!? That's nothing for this process. I spent close to 5K because almost all of my interviews were flights from Florida to the northeast, midwest, or mountain west. Consider this money an investment in your future.

 

[KCShaw]

I really wouldn't worry about the money. I know that's hard to do right now, but it's absolutely an investment for the future. I'm not saying you need to go to 20 interviews -- far from it. Just that you shouldn't let a few bucks be the sole factor in a decision to cut it to 5. Really if that were so important you wouldn't have gone to medical school and racked up the 140+k debt statistically you probably already have; $650 or even a couple thousand will look pretty measly in retrospect, particularly if you don't match.

But I actually tend to agree that if you look decent on paper (around average or better Step I, no fails, no extended time off, have done a pathology rotation at some point, etc.) and are generally sociable, interact well under pressure, etc., then the difference between 7 and 9 interviews is probably negligible if those interviews are at institutions reasonable for the strength of your application (i.e., probably not ALL of them brand name programs that field thousands of apps and a hundred+ interviews for a handful of highly competitive positions). The key I think is being able to accurately assess how strong, or weak, your application is AND your interview capabilities are.

 

[BU Pathology]

This question really needs to be answered by someone who will look closely at your entire application. It takes me about an hour to advise a student on where to interview and how many interviews. There are so many factors that influence this decision that the advice on an internet board is almost certainly not sufficient.

You should schedule an appointment with your school's assigned faculty member who will be able to give you appropriate advice. Even if you think the adviser is "old school" and doesn't understand the current environment, they will certainly spend more time answering your question.

 

[Euchromatin]

This question really needs to be answered by someone who will look closely at your entire application. It takes me about an hour to advise a student on where to interview and how many interviews. There are so many factors that influence this decision that the advice on an internet board is almost certainly not sufficient.

You should schedule an appointment with your school's assigned faculty member who will be able to give you appropriate advice. Even if you think the adviser is "old school" and doesn't understand the current environment, they will certainly spend more time answering your question.

This is good advice IF your medical school or local pathology program has such a person. My medical school's "assigned faculty mentor" in pathology never showed up for student mentoring events. When I finally met the individual while rotating through their department, they repeatedly dodged the question of where I should apply (and to how many places), usually by saying that their knowledge was out of date and would be useless to me.

So I used my medical school's match results from the year ahead of me to "stalk" the graduates who matched into pathology and cold emailed them for advice. I also looked at a lot of NRMP data from the web.

 

[BU Pathology]

This is good advice IF your medical school or local pathology program has such a person. My medical school's "assigned faculty mentor" in pathology never showed up for student mentoring events. When I finally met the individual while rotating through their department, they repeatedly dodged the question of where I should apply (and to how many places), usually by saying that their knowledge was out of date and would be useless to me.

So I used my medical school's match results from the year ahead of me to "stalk" the graduates who matched into pathology and cold emailed them for advice. I also looked at a lot of NRMP data from the web.

Fair point, but you want someone who will look at your entire application and not just a small portion of it.

 

[mlw03]

Fair point, but you want someone who will look at your entire application and not just a small portion of it.

Dr. Remick - the applicant wants an informed person to look at their entire application, ideally. Such a person may not exist at every medical school. Step 1 score is by far the most important thing in a pathology applicant's file to getting an interview - I simply disagree with anyone who says otherwise. Everything else is a distant second place. After that, being a normal person who can communicate in English and will have a good work ethic trumps most other stuff. We can tell med students their psych clerkship grade matters, but it only does so long as they don't fail. I know we can all come up with extremes, but for most US med students, step 1 is the most important factor in an application.

So while it'd be great to have a knowledge pathology faculty who can go through your app, you may not get it and for this forum's flaws, it's still better than nothing in some areas.

 

[KCShaw]

Definitely agree that not every medical school has an "appropriate" well informed available faculty member with relevant knowledge and experience in pathology. One should -absolutely- try to find one -- don't expect the cardiology trained sub dean to give you the best informed advice in relation to pathology -- but they just may not be available everywhere. It's one of the problems of a relatively small niche specialty which is underrepresented in many medical school hierarchies.

 

[gbwillner]

I would add that the interviews are not only about matching, they are also about going to the place that is right for you. And you might never find it if you only apply to a handful of places.

On my interviews, I spent at least 3 days at each city, to get to know it and the program better. I would "shadow" residents for at least a day.

I applied to 10-11 programs, went to interviews at 8, turned down an interview or two and never heard back from one program.

I then went back for a second look (for 1 week) to my top 3.

I don't advise that this method is for everybody, but I knew what I was getting myself into and made the most informed decision I could.

 

[Euchromatin]

I would add that the interviews are not only about matching, they are also about going to the place that is right for you. And you might never find it if you only apply to a handful of places.

On my interviews, I spent at least 3 days at each city, to get to know it and the program better. I would "shadow" residents for at least a day.

I applied to 10-11 programs, went to interviews at 8, turned down an interview or two and never heard back from one program.

I then went back for a second look (for 1 week) to my top 3.

I don't advise that this method is for everybody, but I knew what I was getting myself into and made the most informed decision I could.

I agree that trying to assess a residency program with just the one day long interview can be difficult and spending more time at your top choices would be helpful. However, given that many medical schools are rather strict about how much time off of rotations they will allow students to take for interviewing, I am surprised that you had so much time available to do this.

I suspect it is more common for students to use an elective month to just do a actual rotation in the pathology department(s) they are most interested in for residency.

 

[bauber]

Can anyone clarify if there is a 'recruitment period' following the interview season? I have heard there is, but what does that entail? Are program directors going to call me and tell me how special I am? Several programs have told me to email them after I finish interviews. Is telling my #1 program how much I liked them and that they will be ranked #1 a good idea?

 

[pathstudent]

This question really needs to be answered by someone who will look closely at your entire application. It takes me about an hour to advise a student on where to interview and how many interviews. There are so many factors that influence this decision that the advice on an internet board is almost certainly not sufficient.

You should schedule an appointment with your school's assigned faculty member who will be able to give you appropriate advice. Even if you think the adviser is "old school" and doesn't understand the current environment, they will certainly spend more time answering your question.

The path adviser at my place was essentially retired and completely out of touch with residency programs since the 80s.

Common sense response is to apply to all programs in cities you would like to live. Go on as many interviews as you can afford. Rank all programs you would be willing to go to. If you rank at least five places you are very very likely to match. I don't have the number in front of me but I once read that most american med students match in their top three.

 

[mlw03]

Can anyone clarify if there is a 'recruitment period' following the interview season? I have heard there is, but what does that entail? Are program directors going to call me and tell me how special I am? Several programs have told me to email them after I finish interviews. Is telling my #1 program how much I liked them and that they will be ranked #1 a good idea?

People ask about this little game every year. Short answer is virtually nothing short of a "I am ranking you to match" means anything. Period. Some PDs will contact you, others won't. Don't let that stuff affect your rank list. Rank programs in the order you want. Do not get sucked into the games. If you want to tell your #1, you can, but then don't freak out if they don't give you the "I love you" back.

 

[yaah]

Dr. Remick - the applicant wants an informed person to look at their entire application, ideally. Such a person may not exist at every medical school. Step 1 score is by far the most important thing in a pathology applicant's file to getting an interview - I simply disagree with anyone who says otherwise. Everything else is a distant second place. After that, being a normal person who can communicate in English and will have a good work ethic trumps most other stuff. We can tell med students their psych clerkship grade matters, but it only does so long as they don't fail. I know we can all come up with extremes, but for most US med students, step 1 is the most important factor in an application.

So while it'd be great to have a knowledge pathology faculty who can go through your app, you may not get it and for this forum's flaws, it's still better than nothing in some areas.

In actuality, the "most important thing" in one's application is likely different for everyone. If your step score is extremely high or it is very low, that might be the most important thing. if it's in the middle somewhere, the most important thing will be something else.

And if you are a terrible communicator or have a bad reputation clinically, that will be the most important thing.

So you can say that step I is the most important factor because you might not get looked at otherwise, but it really is all relative because if your step I score is good but not great it essentially becomes more irrelevant at the expense of whatever else makes you stand out. And if you have a great step I score but you failed two of your third year clerkships and one of your reference letters says you were unimpressive, your step I score is pretty unimportant.


I once met a guy who interviewed for med school at all of the US News top 10 schools one year. His MCATs were 40+, he had publications and strong research. But his reference letters were weak and his interview skills were, to put it mildly, horrible. He got zero acceptances from the top 10 schools.

 

[Johnny Sunshine]

Not sure if this helps much, but perhaps it will add more data to help form the overall perspective:

I seemed to have a strong application and "did everything right", yet I did not match.

I went to a fairly well respected American medical school, where I was an average student. Most of my test scores and evaluations hovered around the 45-55th percentile marks, with the occasional one up to 75th. By the time I applied to residency, I had taken USMLE Step I and Step II, and passed them both with, again, rather average scores.

No big deal, I figured. Of course I would have liked to be a stronger applicant, but I was still sitting better than half of my class, which was saying something. I even had several publications and presentations at national conferences under my belt.

In contrast to some who go into pathology, I had pretty extensive med school exposure. My 4th year was practically all pathology, both AP and CP rotations, and even an away visiting rotation. Pathology wasn't my back-up plan; it was my primary goal. I had also worked 15 years in various fields before going to med school, working with the public, other professionals, and having some leadership roles as well. Everyone seems to find me as an agreeable, easygoing, polite and responsible person. Maybe I'm somewhat more socially reserved than average, but in the numerous mock interviews I performed (with 6 different people over a 4 month period), I received positive feedback on my friendliness and conversational ability.

I had letters of recommendation from pathologists I had worked with, as well as one from a surgeon I had been working with in clinic for over two years and one from my research mentor (an MD) who I'd been working with for over three years.

I applied to about 30 places, a wide variety across the nation, both big and small, public and private, hospital and small practice. Got 12 offers for interview, interviewed at 9, ranked 8 (about half were strong names, about half just average, and no I didn't just rank the big places first). Did not match.

It especially hurt during the scramble, when I saw that 3 of the programs I had ranked still had openings, which meant that they didn't rank me. Not even the small private practice place where I had been the first American grad to interview there in 7 years... Not even the place I did an away rotation at ranked me.

And, the star player of my class didn't match either. She was just going into general surgery, had 270+ on both Step 1 and Step 2, and was a social darling and dedicated hard worker.

I guess the moral is that sometimes, things just don't mesh in your favor. :/

 

[deleted314957]

Not sure if this helps much, but perhaps it will add more data to help form the overall perspective:

I seemed to have a strong application and "did everything right", yet I did not match.

I went to a fairly well respected American medical school, where I was an average student. Most of my test scores and evaluations hovered around the 45-55th percentile marks, with the occasional one up to 75th. By the time I applied to residency, I had taken USMLE Step I and Step II, and passed them both with, again, rather average scores.

No big deal, I figured. Of course I would have liked to be a stronger applicant, but I was still sitting better than half of my class, which was saying something. I even had several publications and presentations at national conferences under my belt.

In contrast to some who go into pathology, I had pretty extensive med school exposure. My 4th year was practically all pathology, both AP and CP rotations, and even an away visiting rotation. Pathology wasn't my back-up plan; it was my primary goal. I had also worked 15 years in various fields before going to med school, working with the public, other professionals, and having some leadership roles as well. Everyone seems to find me as an agreeable, easygoing, polite and responsible person. Maybe I'm somewhat more socially reserved than average, but in the numerous mock interviews I performed (with 6 different people over a 4 month period), I received positive feedback on my friendliness and conversational ability.

I had letters of recommendation from pathologists I had worked with, as well as one from a surgeon I had been working with in clinic for over two years and one from my research mentor (an MD) who I'd been working with for over three years.

I applied to about 30 places, a wide variety across the nation, both big and small, public and private, hospital and small practice. Got 12 offers for interview, interviewed at 9, ranked 8 (about half were strong names, about half just average, and no I didn't just rank the big places first). Did not match.

It especially hurt during the scramble, when I saw that 3 of the programs I had ranked still had openings, which meant that they didn't rank me. Not even the small private practice place where I had been the first American grad to interview there in 7 years... Not even the place I did an away rotation at ranked me.

And, the star player of my class didn't match either. She was just going into general surgery, had 270+ on both Step 1 and Step 2, and was a social darling and dedicated hard worker.

I guess the moral is that sometimes, things just don't mesh in your favor. :/

All i can say is---just DAMN!

 

[LADoc00]

Johnny Sunshine that is a crazy story. Perhaps God is telling you something.

Is it possible many programs looked at you and figured you wouldnt mesh with their "100% IMG- English as Second Language-Feed Directly into Path Mills" culture?

Is it possible they even saw you as a Spartcus figure? A troublemaker, one who might question the status quo given your reading of this forum perhaps?

I suspect most programs in Pathology now, especially lesser known ones, are built around "Lamb Applicants", followers who wont ask questions or question the authority of the faculty. These programs teeter on the edge of solvency/credentialing and their greatest fear is someone who doesnt have their head in the sand actually telling the outside world how dysfunction it is...

 

[Euchromatin]

Not sure if this helps much, but perhaps it will add more data to help form the overall perspective:

I seemed to have a strong application and "did everything right", yet I did not match.

I went to a fairly well respected American medical school, where I was an average student. Most of my test scores and evaluations hovered around the 45-55th percentile marks, with the occasional one up to 75th. By the time I applied to residency, I had taken USMLE Step I and Step II, and passed them both with, again, rather average scores.

No big deal, I figured. Of course I would have liked to be a stronger applicant, but I was still sitting better than half of my class, which was saying something. I even had several publications and presentations at national conferences under my belt.

In contrast to some who go into pathology, I had pretty extensive med school exposure. My 4th year was practically all pathology, both AP and CP rotations, and even an away visiting rotation. Pathology wasn't my back-up plan; it was my primary goal. I had also worked 15 years in various fields before going to med school, working with the public, other professionals, and having some leadership roles as well. Everyone seems to find me as an agreeable, easygoing, polite and responsible person. Maybe I'm somewhat more socially reserved than average, but in the numerous mock interviews I performed (with 6 different people over a 4 month period), I received positive feedback on my friendliness and conversational ability.

I had letters of recommendation from pathologists I had worked with, as well as one from a surgeon I had been working with in clinic for over two years and one from my research mentor (an MD) who I'd been working with for over three years.

I applied to about 30 places, a wide variety across the nation, both big and small, public and private, hospital and small practice. Got 12 offers for interview, interviewed at 9, ranked 8 (about half were strong names, about half just average, and no I didn't just rank the big places first). Did not match.

It especially hurt during the scramble, when I saw that 3 of the programs I had ranked still had openings, which meant that they didn't rank me. Not even the small private practice place where I had been the first American grad to interview there in 7 years... Not even the place I did an away rotation at ranked me.

And, the star player of my class didn't match either. She was just going into general surgery, had 270+ on both Step 1 and Step 2, and was a social darling and dedicated hard worker.

I guess the moral is that sometimes, things just don't mesh in your favor. :/

Wow - that is crazy. We interview a pretty broad mix of both AMG and IMG candidates and I think there have only been one or two applicants that our program didn't rank in the past two cycles (USMLE Step 2 failure issues, not personality issues). I'm not sure if your introversion/social skills are more problematic than you think (although it sounds like you did all you could to prepare for interviews), if you just did a poor job selecting programs to apply to and interview at or if the stars aligned to to give you the worst luck ever.

I would be interested to hear how things worked out, if you'd be willing to share. Did you find a spot in the scramble? Re-apply the next year? Take a clinical transitional year/intern position?

 

[Euchromatin]

Is it possible they even saw you as a Spartcus figure? A troublemaker, one who might question the status quo given your reading of this forum perhaps?

It's funny that you mention readers of this forum might be considered troublemakers who question the status quo. Our program is pretty receptive to resident feedback in general, but I, personally, have been called a "firebrand" by attending staff...😉

 

[SLUsagar]

Considering only 10 U.S. Seniors (allopathic fourth years) did not match in Pathology last year, I'm contemplating how many interviews are really necessary. Looking at Charting Outcomes (link below), 7 of the non-matchers ranked 1 or 2 programs. Another pair of individuals ranked 7 and 8 programs and did not match. An additional person ranked 16+ programs and did not match (weird).

I have 9 interviews scheduled. I'm seriously considering whittling that down to 7 to save about $650. Both of these programs are good, but I will probably not rank in my top 5.

I was wondering how other applicants are approaching their interview schedule.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2011.pdf

I'd recommend going on an as many as you can afford. This is likely your one shot to visit a place you'll never again see and (hopefully) meet some bigwigs (many of which you won't realize are bigwigs until after you become a resident and read more). Pathology is also a pretty small world and you'll be surprised meeting some of these same people at meetings/etc. down the road who remember meeting you during interview season.

 

[gbwillner]

I don't know what Johnny's deal is, but that is highly atypical. Hell, just applying to 30 programs is pretty atypical for Path and makes the story a little fishy... like there is something specific to your application that raises red flags. Particularly since most US applicants get into one of the top 3 places.

I will say that at my program the residents could easily blackball any applicant for any reason, provided there was some consensus among residents. We didn't rank applicants for a variety of perfectly valid reasons- mostly things the attendings didn't pick up on (remember the lunch/dinner test?). Some had great board scores/grades, but failed the Douchebag test.

 

[bauber]

Johnny Sunshine that is a crazy story. Perhaps God is telling you something.

Is it possible many programs looked at you and figured you wouldnt mesh with their "100% IMG- English as Second Language-Feed Directly into Path Mills" culture?

Tell me more about these path mills please.

 

[LADoc00]

Tell me more about these path mills please.

You mean like story time? Like stories of beatings, pathologists from Asia chained to desks and given only water? Perhaps an Albanian thug standing guard at the exit?

Or more like "I am going to revoke your visa to be in the US unless you do exactly what a I say" (cut to sound of 'bossman' unzipping his pants...).

what are you looking for??

You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom.
Malcolm X

Freedom is not a matter of choice, it is a destined path, an undying yearning for the peace of one's soul until attainment.
Winston Churchill

 

[mlw03]

I don't know what Johnny's deal is, but that is highly atypical. Hell, just applying to 30 programs is pretty atypical for Path and makes the story a little fishy... like there is something specific to your application that raises red flags. Particularly since most US applicants get into one of the top 3 places.

I will say that at my program the residents could easily blackball any applicant for any reason, provided there was some consensus among residents. We didn't rank applicants for a variety of perfectly valid reasons- mostly things the attendings didn't pick up on (remember the lunch/dinner test?). Some had great board scores/grades, but failed the Douchebag test.

I had similar thoughts after reading Johnny's post. Don't know him/her from the man in the moon, but something about that story is odd. I'm not writing this to jump on Johnny but to point out to applicants that such a story is the exception, not the rule.

 

[LADoc00]

I was definitely unaware we had a douchebag test for Path residency decided upon by residents.

That would make my acceptance and some of my closer friends even stranger...

 

[bauber]

You mean like story time? Like stories of beatings, pathologists from Asia chained to desks and given only water? Perhaps an Albanian thug standing guard at the exit?

Or more like "I am going to revoke your visa to be in the US unless you do exactly what a I say" (cut to sound of 'bossman' unzipping his pants...).

what are you looking for??

You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom.
Malcolm X

Freedom is not a matter of choice, it is a destined path, an undying yearning for the peace of one's soul until attainment.
Winston Churchill

Do you have any stories about undercover KGB pathologists attempting to destroy the system from the inside?