how many med students could make more money in other job?

[phillyfornia]

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seems to be a common belief here that people shouldn't go into medicine for money. i realize that there are various reasons why medicine may not be the most lucrative profession out there (debt, time in training, etc.) and that there are other jobs that pay more (i-banking).

seems to me, however, that medicine is the best bet for making bucks for over 90% of the people in medical school. IMO, most students that i meet couldn't make more money doing another profession. what do you guys think?

 

[sga814]

First of all, the average investment banker salary is, at best, about 135K (and that's after several promotions). Sure there are those that far exceed that average, but not many. Like in any corporation, if you work your way up the ladder, you could be making millions, but once again- not many achieve this. In terms of jobs where you pretty much "go along with the flow", medicine is still the profession with the highest guaranteed pay, whether or not you "work your way up the ladder". 🙂

Check out Monster's salary center if you don't believe me.

 

[Centinel]

First of all, the average investment banker salary is, at best, about 135K (and that's after several promotions).

Depends on which bank you're at. I have a friend whose first year salary+bonus was $120,000. With the big name firms, the starting salary+bonus can be enormous.

 

[Law2Doc]

IMO, most students that i meet couldn't make more money doing another profession.

Nice to meet you. That should change the percentage.

Truth of the matter is a lot of hardworking smart people you meet in med school could do as well, or better in a lot of other fields, if they put the same effort into it. I know I did. Because of the training time involved and the amount of debt incurred, not to mention the hours and lifelong level of responsibility, medicine is just not the quickest path to wealth for many, if that is a priority. Expect to be comfortable, not filthy rich.

 

[Law2Doc]

First of all, the average investment banker salary is, at best, about 135K (and that's after several promotions). ...

Check out Monster's salary center if you don't believe me.

Agree with the prior poster -- the biggest component of most I bankers income tends to be in their bonus, not salary. In good years, 2-3 times your salary as a bonus is not unusual. I know quite a few folks who started their jobs at around the 60k/yr salary range right out of college, but got another 150k at year end (after having been there a year). So you are very at the mercy of the market, but your salary (on monster etc) almost always drastically underestimates your income quite significantly.

 

[YouDontKnowJack]

sure. i could make more.

it's not hard for me to be like bill gates. all i need is an mba from podunk online b-school and i'm golden. retire by 35.

i know everyone agrees with me. I'm not the only one who says "there are tons of jobs that could make you more money." If you wanna make more, just get an mba and be a CEO of a fortune 100 company!! easy as pie baby. easier than getting a derm residency. 👍

 

[Mperor]

lets put it this way:

There are a million easier ways to be rich.

This is the best way to make a comfortable and secure living.

 

[lexrageorge]

seems to be a common belief here that people shouldn't go into medicine for money. i realize that there are various reasons why medicine may not be the most lucrative profession out there (debt, time in training, etc.) and that there are other jobs that pay more (i-banking).

seems to me, however, that medicine is the best bet for making bucks for over 90% of the people in medical school. IMO, most students that i meet couldn't make more money doing another profession. what do you guys think?

If you think you'd enjoy practicing medicine, then by all means do it. You will make decent bucks. If you hate the idea of practicing medicine, or if you're completely ambivalent, don't go into the field solely for the $$$. It's way too much work, and you will be miserable.

But, yes, I do laugh when I read comments such as "I should have went into something easy like I-banking or law". Anyone who thinks investment banking is an easy way to make millions is an idiot.

BTW, some physicians do go into law, investment banking, venture capital, etc., and do very well. So, it is not necessarily an either-or decision.

 

[loveumms]

During the summer between my first and second years, I put my resume on Monster b/c I was trying to find a summer job.

One day I got a call from American Express and they wanted to offer me a job. I listened to the proposal just b/c I was interested. The manager told me that they would train me to be a financial advisor and were willing to offer me $80,000 a year. I was totally floored and reminded him I had a degree in neurobiology and physiology and was attending medical school and he told me that was part of the reason he wanted me - on top of having a "very desirable GPA".

Had to turn the offer down but, it definitely made me think twice on why I was slaving away in school (paying $25K +) when I could be making big bucks in business.

Bottom line is - I don't think I would have been happy doing anything else besides medicine so, even though the money is nice, happiness and job satisfaction is much more important.

 

[jocg27]

I was totally floored and reminded him I had a degree in neurobiology and physiology and was attending medical school and he told me that was part of the reason he wanted me - on top of having a "very desirable GPA".

Had to turn the offer down but, it definitely made me think twice on why I was slaving away in school (paying $25K +) when I could be making big bucks in business.

they wanted you to drop med school? or was it contingent on you finishing?

 

[Law2Doc]

they wanted you to drop med school? or was it contingent on you finishing?

If it was similar to communications I have received from there, it is unrelated to med school and they wanted him/her to drop out.

 

[skypilot]

During the summer between my first and second years, I put my resume on Monster b/c I was trying to find a summer job.

One day I got a call from American Express and they wanted to offer me a job. I listened to the proposal just b/c I was interested. The manager told me that they would train me to be a financial advisor and were willing to offer me $80,000 a year. I was totally floored and reminded him I had a degree in neurobiology and physiology and was attending medical school and he told me that was part of the reason he wanted me - on top of having a "very desirable GPA".

Had to turn the offer down but, it definitely made me think twice on why I was slaving away in school (paying $25K +) when I could be making big bucks in business.

Bottom line is - I don't think I would have been happy doing anything else besides medicine so, even though the money is nice, happiness and job satisfaction is much more important.

This is a sales job. Yes you can make 80k but you will have to work your butt off, deal with lots of rejection, and sell your soul to do it. 🙂

 

[QuikClot]

sure. i could make more.

it's not hard for me to be like bill gates. all i need is an mba from podunk online b-school and i'm golden. retire by 35.

i know everyone agrees with me. I'm not the only one who says "there are tons of jobs that could make you more money." If you wanna make more, just get an mba and be a CEO of a fortune 100 company!! easy as pie baby. easier than getting a derm residency. 👍

I can't tell if there is sarcasm here or not. I hope so.

The question I'm really interested in -- as a working-class stiff -- is how many of my fellow students could be making more money at a particular job called "spending Daddy's money."

You know, I have nothing but respect for people who set themselves a lofty goal like the MD when they could be sitting on their asses drinking gin. But the gossip in me is curious (as well as a little envious): How much are they getting? How much could they eventually get? How many of them are there in a med school class of 120?

 

[ERdoc08]

seems to be a common belief here that people shouldn't go into medicine for money. i realize that there are various reasons why medicine may not be the most lucrative profession out there (debt, time in training, etc.) and that there are other jobs that pay more (i-banking).

seems to me, however, that medicine is the best bet for making bucks for over 90% of the people in medical school. IMO, most students that i meet couldn't make more money doing another profession. what do you guys think?

Medical students don't make any money, since most don't work.

Thus, you could make more money doing just about any job.

 

[Centinel]

I can't tell if there is sarcasm here or not. I hope so.

The question I'm really interested in -- as a working-class stiff -- is how many of my fellow students could be making more money at a particular job called "spending Daddy's money."

You know, I have nothing but respect for people who set themselves a lofty goal like the MD when they could be sitting on their asses drinking gin. But the gossip in me is curious (as well as a little envious): How much are they getting? How much could they eventually get? How many of them are there in a med school class of 120?

From AMSA :
The composition of the physician workforce is also changing in that more and more students are coming from wealthy families. Today, the fraction of medical students that come from families in the top 20% of annual income exceeds 60%. On the other hand, students from families in the bottom 20% of annual income make up less than 3% of medical students.

So your intuition is right - the majority of medical students are from the upper middle and upper classes (you can dissect this for yourself at Wikipedia )

 

[Law2Doc]

From AMSA :
The composition of the physician workforce is also changing in that more and more students are coming from wealthy families. Today, the fraction of medical students that come from families in the top 20% of annual income exceeds 60%. On the other hand, students from families in the bottom 20% of annual income make up less than 3% of medical students.

So your intuition is right - the majority of medical students are from the upper middle and upper classes (you can dissect this for yourself at Wikipedia )

But QuikClot's suggestion that those folks had the choice of going to school or retiring on family money is likely false -- it is the pretty rare rich kid in med school who had the choice of school or cash -- the choice is almost always school or go out and get a job. And much more than 40% of any med school class takes out loans, so even of that 60% whose families are apparently wealthy, their school isn't being paid for by parents free and clear.

 

[Centinel]

But QuikClot's suggestion that those folks had the choice of going to school or retiring on family money is likely false -- it is the pretty rare rich kid in med school who had the choice of school or cash -- the choice is almost always school or go out and get a job. And much more than 40% of any med school class takes out loans, so even of that 60% whose families are apparently wealthy, their school isn't being paid for by parents free and clear.

Quite true. The Wiki link estimates the cutoff between upper middle class and upper class at about $88,000 per family per year. If that's even in the ballpark of an accurate figure, there's no way that most of these students could actually 'retire'. I took QuikClot's statements to be mildly hyperbolic.

 

[loveumms]

I wish I was born with a silver spoon in my mouth - but then again, some of the spoon fed in my class really are completely oblivious to the world around them, mainly b/c mommy and daddy gave them everything and sheltered them from the 'real world'.

Maybe a little off topic, but still relevant to parental sheltering: I still find it completely amazing that some med students don't know what a 40 is. How does that happen with four years of college (even if you don't partake in the parties)?

 

[anon-y-mouse]

I can't tell if there is sarcasm here or not. I hope so.

The question I'm really interested in -- as a working-class stiff -- is how many of my fellow students could be making more money at a particular job called "spending Daddy's money."

You know, I have nothing but respect for people who set themselves a lofty goal like the MD when they could be sitting on their asses drinking gin. But the gossip in me is curious (as well as a little envious): How much are they getting? How much could they eventually get? How many of them are there in a med school class of 120?

Many people in my class are wealthy... also many of them are sons/daughters of physicians, who probably had to work hard to get where they are now, so probably encourage hard work in their children. You don't get rich simply by sitting on your ass (unless you're a Walton or Hilton or something); I don't think many parents would be pleased if their children were unsuccessful on their own. I could probably live a comfortable life even if I never got a job... but my parents wouldn't be very happy. All the same, there are still people who are still taking out loans, etc.

 

[want2beadoc]

I was offered a 120k job through a friend at an oil company (my undergrad degree was in mechanical engineering). This was a month ago before I started MS1. That being said this was through a friend and I would have had to work long hours in foreign countries (at least initially). Engineering can make a lot of money and have great upward mobility in a corporation. In fact, there are more S&P 500 companies with CEOs with undergrad engineering degrees than business administrator degrees. (~21% v. ~15%) (Source: http://content.spencerstuart.com/sswebsite/pdf/lib/Statistical_Snapshot_of_Leading_CEOs_relB3.pdf)

So I think it's a toss-up for some medical students depending on there previous professions and degrees. Some couldn't make more money in any other field, some could. I'm not willing to put a percentage on it.
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Concerning the silver spoon thing. Put yourself in a upper-class parental position. Say you make 140k a year and your son or daughter wants to go to med school. 30k a year our of 140k is a significant amount of money. Your lifestyle might change. You might have to skip a year between buying new cars or move into a smaller house because you can't afford the mortgage anymore. It would just be easier to tell the kid "your 22, you'll be a doctor, take out loans. I might help out a little bit."

That situation might change for the ultra rich. I don't know if there is data about it (if there is, let me know, I'm interested). Definitions of upper, middle, and lower-class change depending on who is using the statistics. If I wanted to make it look like med schools were full of a bunch of spoiled rich kids I would say 80K+ per household is upperclass.

Also, most people don't just "decide" to go to med schools, they have to work for it. Some can afford Kaplan courses, private tutors, etc. but in the end it was their MCAT score, their GPA, and their interview that got them in. I'm sure there is parental influence on schools, too... but thats not upper-class thats upper-upper-class (rich alumni, people of influence).

Ughh.. I'm too tired to proofread that.

 

[kito]

Before I started school I worked on a trading floor in New York and did very well. I walked away from it all because I couldn't see myself doing what I was doing for thirty years. Making lots of money wasn't enough to keep me waking up every morning and feeling happy about what I was doing and where I was headed, and so I changed my life and decided to do this.

I am very happy with my decision, and the truth is that I feel that I am a more well rounded person for it. I still love trading, and still love games of finance, but I also love all that I learn every day, and the way I get to interact with people on a level that is so much more solemn than earning or swindling them out of yet another buck.

 

[MossPoh]

I am not in medschool yet but IBM offered me a great job starting at about 60k a year with tons of benefits and decent hours...if I did the internship which I had no real craving to get into the field...that and if I did the apprentice type stuff with my brother I could have a damn decent job as a mechanic. 4 years of training at about resident salary and then I'd get 40 dollars per manhour starting with about 80-100 man hours being possible per week, although probably about 60 per week until I got better(manhours not to be confused with working hours) and along with that stuff a decent healthplan and discount on all cars....and I'd also help managing my brothers property biz and some other stuff for another couple grand a year.....but they are tough hours with chance of injury and in a very expensive area.

 

[Vox Animo]

seems to be a common belief here that people shouldn't go into medicine for money. i realize that there are various reasons why medicine may not be the most lucrative profession out there (debt, time in training, etc.) and that there are other jobs that pay more (i-banking).

seems to me, however, that medicine is the best bet for making bucks for over 90% of the people in medical school. IMO, most students that i meet couldn't make more money doing another profession. what do you guys think?

Well, if i answer the quesiton in your title, any job will earn you more than a med student. The average med student makes -50+K a year.

 

[Miami_med]

I can't tell if there is sarcasm here or not. I hope so.

The question I'm really interested in -- as a working-class stiff -- is how many of my fellow students could be making more money at a particular job called "spending Daddy's money."

You know, I have nothing but respect for people who set themselves a lofty goal like the MD when they could be sitting on their asses drinking gin. But the gossip in me is curious (as well as a little envious): How much are they getting? How much could they eventually get? How many of them are there in a med school class of 120?

80% of med students (I believe this is the right number, correct me someone who has a better statistic) took student loans last year. If you can't pay your tuition, it is unlikely that you could retire in your 20s. Yes, there are wealthy people in each class. There are also a number of children of doctors, which is normal in training for everything (children of people who do it).

Most medical students would have qualified for law school. Most would have made more money more quickly there. Most of us did not enter school just because of the income, because we could have made more money elsewhere. That is the point. My wife's friend who is in law school has been getting clerkship offers that pay more than a resident's salary for a summer. They are attached to job offers of 140k+ after 3 years of law school (No residency).

I will also point out Quikclot that tolerance doesn't mean insulting every group with which you disagree. I very well might have come from right around the 20th percentile income wise. I worked myself through college in a warehouse. I am taking student loans and am worried about my financial future like anyone else. What does my father's income have to do with that.

P.S. I didn't grow up in a castle. My first car was a 10 year old Sable that I bought myself from a side business that I started myself in High School and a summer job.

 

[johntara04]

From AMSA :
The composition of the physician workforce is also changing in that more and more students are coming from wealthy families. Today, the fraction of medical students that come from families in the top 20% of annual income exceeds 60%. On the other hand, students from families in the bottom 20% of annual income make up less than 3% of medical students.

So your intuition is right - the majority of medical students are from the upper middle and upper classes (you can dissect this for yourself at Wikipedia )

This doesn't suprise me at all. The average gp dentist salary is $178,000 a year and that puts dentists in the top 5% of income earners in America (sorry I am using dentistry, but that is what I am doing so that is what I know). So, I get the feeling (no scientific research here) that most people in the "medical" schools have some sort of connection family wise to a current Dr. Also, I come from the bottom 20% and I never thought of dentistry until I met my wife (whose father is a doctor). I had looked into being a MD, but it wasn't for me. I then thought that was it with medicine. I had no idea about the other professions. I didn't even know about DO's.

So, my vast ramblings can be summed up by saying that I would think that most people in these schools had some connection to the profession before they entered into the schools which means a higher chance their families were "doing well."

 

[Sean2tall]

My summary of the situation would be this:

1) Easier jobs which guarantee something in the range of 80-120k/year. Pharmacy, for one, only takes around 6 years post high school.

2) Jobs which can make a lot more, but there are no guarantees of a certain salary. Rock star, film actor, self-employed business owner. Even as a lawyer, many things are dependent on luck/connections/work ethic/grades. Some might make millions, while others are less than or similar to a doctor.

 

[sometime07]

My favorite answer when asked on interviews what proved my drive to go into medicine:

"I can start at a 6-figure salary tomorrow if I wanted. Medicine is what I was born to do, so I can't go into anything else."

It's true, too. All my siblings work in the family business, and they all started at $150k and now earn over $250k. I could drop out of med school tomorrow and make that salary.

 

[utorontograd]

Okay here's my take on the whole money and medicine thing:

If you presuppose that pending successful completion of medical training you are guaranteed a certain level of income, then by no means can it be the most lucrative activity to be doing.

What I mean to say is that certainty is inversely proportional to payout. To prove this for yourself go into any bank and talk to a financial advisor about the various investment options they have available. Take mutual funds... The one's that are guaranteed (conservative) have puny return margins. The ones with the highest return margins have the uncertainty associated with them.

Similarly by undertaking activities with little to no guarantess of success you are ensured the highest returns on your activity provided you can perform. Examples of such activities are as someone mentioned, being some sort of media star. Others activities are commissioned sales, entrepreneurship, consulting, and my personal favourite direct response copywriting. Copywriters for publications like the Vanity Fair and National Enquirer are the highest paid writers and among the highest paid professionals around.

People seem to be very limited in terms of where they think the money is. There's way more out there than just I-banking. Here's a funny but pertinent example: my friend owns a valet company he's 22 and he takes in and keeps more in one year than a cardiologist. Might I mention he only has a highschool diploma and it only took about 6 months from the conception of the business model to be earning this much.

But what doctors give up in terms of income they get back in terms of respect and esteem.

 

[NonTradMed]

The engineering majors from college who graduated with me make pretty good salaries. Those that live in expensive parts of the country are making $100k, not a grand living where they live, but certainly not chump change. Others who work in less expensive areas make anywhere between $50-80k. And this is after working for a few years. Not bad.

Many of them could have gone to med school (they were smart enough to), but choose not to. Would they be earning a doctor's salary in the next five or ten years? Some probably will, others may not. The thing is, these other jobs have other factors which affects their potential to earn a six figure salary. Physician salaries do not share such a broad range, but they are far more stable. Everyone will earn enough to put their families in the top 10-20% if they work fulltime. But I think the sacrifices medicine entails makes the position a bad choice if money was the main deciding factor. I say this because the differences in lifestyle between my engineering friends and me, as a future doctor, aren't going to be so very different that I need to slave through med school and residency just to make more money than them. Most people in this country live pretty comfortably without having to go to med school. To do so just to have an extra couple of bedrooms in the house seems kind of foolhardy. One should at least have enjoyment as a factor in choosing medicine.

 

[Law2Doc]

Most people in this country live pretty comfortably without having to go to med school.

Hopefully this statement in your post was meant to relate to the college educated or professional people you were discussing. Otherwise, I think you are a bit inaccurate when extrapolated to the country at large.

 

[me454555]

IMO, being a dr is the best way to ensure a salary >200k. Sure there are many ways to make 100-150k/year. In the grand scheme of things, thats really not that much money if your thinking about living in a decent neighborhood and having kids. There are many jobs in medicine that aren't that tough to get into that allow you to gurantee yourself >200k income. The same cannot be said of almost any other field. Although other fields make money earlier, they also top out much lower. For every lawyer whose job starts @ 140k theres another whose having trouble finding a job for >60k. The ones who make that 140k/year salary are also working 80+ hrs/week so it definatly justifies their pay. Throw in the fact that in the business world your job security is nil and being a Dr. looks better and better everyday.

 

[NonTradMed]

Hopefully this statement in your post was meant to relate to the college educated or professional people you were discussing. Otherwise, I think you are a bit inaccurate when extrapolated to the country at large.

I was referring to the average Joe, so possibly college, but not necessarily since some people w/o college degrees can do ok. I was also comparing it relative to the rest of the world, where most people would consider even poor americans fairly comfortable. It's all a matter of perspective. 😉

IMO, being a dr is the best way to ensure a salary >200k. Sure there are many ways to make 100-150k/year. In the grand scheme of things, thats really not that much money if your thinking about living in a decent neighborhood and having kids. There are many jobs in medicine that aren't that tough to get into that allow you to gurantee yourself >200k income. The same cannot be said of almost any other field. Although other fields make money earlier, they also top out much lower. For every lawyer whose job starts @ 140k theres another whose having trouble finding a job for >60k. The ones who make that 140k/year salary are also working 80+ hrs/week so it definatly justifies their pay. Throw in the fact that in the business world your job security is nil and being a Dr. looks better and better everyday.

The average doc makes ~$200k, not a bad money but I'm not sure it's a 'guaranteed' salary, especially if you go into primary care. But in MOST parts of the country, people do not make $200k in order to live in a 'decent' neighborhood'. Since the average family income with kids is something like $60k, I'd say either most people are living in abject poverty or $200 is not needed to live in a decent neighborhood for most people. 🙂