how many of you just want the upper middle class lifestyle

[mikhail1945]

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that medicine affords? i mean, to be honest, you can take care of patients as a nurse or PA. you can dish out drugs as a nurse anesthesiologist. you can contribute more to society at large by being a PhD researcher. you might possibly impact the community more by doing public health advocacy or working in hospital administration. you can help the sick and the indigent and the elderly by volunteering in a hospital or shelter or nusing home.

and don't give me the stuff like "if i wanted to make money, id go into ibanking or law school". medicine is pretty much one of the few options for a student from a typical undergraduate school can access (in a relatively straightforward manner) to break securely into the upper middle class. even a lot of kids from ivy league schools don't get into good law schools or get investment banking jobs.

so apart from the eventual promise of a 200-400k/yr salary, im curious as to what reasons you have.

 

[MedicineNutt]

you know all my life ive always wished for a middle class life...that wealthy status just doesnt fit me well!!! i know that being a physician allows you to be wealthy, but i could care less...money isnt why someone should do the job

 

[MattD]

that medicine affords? i mean, to be honest, you can take care of patients as a nurse or PA. you can dish out drugs as a nurse anesthesiologist. you can contribute more to society at large by being a PhD researcher. you might possibly impact the community more by doing public health advocacy or working in hospital administration. you can help the sick and the indigent and the elderly by volunteering in a hospital or shelter or nusing home.

and don't give me the stuff like "if i wanted to make money, id go into ibanking or law school". medicine is pretty much one of the few options for a student from a typical undergraduate school can access (in a relatively straightforward manner) to break securely into the upper middle class. even a lot of kids from ivy league schools don't get into good law schools or get investment banking jobs.

so apart from the eventual promise of a 200-400k/yr salary, im curious as to what reasons you have.

Medicine allows people to have a career based around science and problem solving, while developing interpersonal relationship and yes, helping people. Now sure, you can help patients as a nurse or PA, but SOMEONE has to develop the diagnosis and treatment plan, and if you have an interest in doing those things, medicine is a good option for you. Some people just like being the decision maker. It's not a power trip kinda thing, it's just that that's their personality. As far as contributing more to society as a researcher or public health advocate, that's a big fat maybe. Sure if you come up with the cure for AIDS, that's a pretty major impact career. If you toil away for 15 years and finally pin down some obscure facts about pathways that turn out not to have the clinical relevance you thought they would, then maybe you haven't achieved quite as much. Frankly, which type of researcher do you think is more common? Nothing against them, it's just that breakthroughs are few and far between. Same sorta deal with public policy. The benefit of medicine is that you can be certain that you WILL help a certain subset of the population intimately and directly to manage their health issues. That, to me, is an extremely satisfying goal. The idea of volunteering in a hospital or shelter doesn't really make sense. Volunteering by definition isn't a job or a career, so I'm not sure how that's a valid alternative. The income is nice, don't get me wrong, and I'm not gonna stand here and say 'oh, just pay me a dollar over the poverty line and I'll be happy', because that's bull, but everyone likes to be well compensated for the work that they do. Why would physicians be any different?

 

[Brainsucker]

I want to saw heads open and fiddle with brains. Who else gets to do that? In any field of medicine, you get more responsibility and autonomy as a doc.

 

[Law2Doc]

even a lot of kids from ivy league schools don't get into good law schools or get investment banking jobs.

I wouldn't say a lot. If you had a 3.5 from an ivy league school (or whatever GPA you would need from there to be competitive to med school) you could get into upper middle class via one of the above routes a whole lot quicker than via medicine.

You will ultimately learn that life is long and if you don't actually enjoy your job, which you will be spending 60-70 hours a week for the rest of your life doing, you are going to be miserable, paycheck notwithstanding. Find something you enjoy doing -- and let the money just be a pleasant perq.
Unfortunately this might be something you need to experience rather than be told. Good luck.

 

[austinap]

Several things, and I've considered all of the other options you've mentioned. I've done reasearch and while I like to do it, I can't picture myself in a lab for the rest of my life. I'm pretty damn good at my research too, and I know I could help a broader base of people if I chose that route. I've considered nursing, but I've always been a person that likes to really know whats going on all the time. I like to know why a specific disease causes certain symptoms, etc. (I'll also admit that I don't take subservient roles very well, and tend to be pretty independant. I can work well with others, but I wouldn't handle an order-taking job for a long period of time very well.) I still haven't ruled out some more patient-oriented type position, though I doubt it because I do have a more technical brain and I like doing things myself whenever possible.

I've also considered the public health positions, and I would definately take that role in some situations, though not in general here in the states. In under-developed countries I would immediately step up to that role as I think more good can come of it than could from direct patient care, however here I think there are people that can do that job much more efficiently than I.

My main motives for medical school are the following:

1. Flexibility. With an MD, I know I could go pratically anywhere in the world, find some sort of job, and be useful and (hopefully) appreciated.
2. Problem solving. I love figuring out things, and I like using my brain as much as possible. Medicine combines more fields than any other single profession, and I love almost every one of those fields.
3. Interpersonal contact. This is one of the major reasons why I can't see myself in a full-time research position. I like having contact, and I like being able to see and talk to the people that I am helping.
4. Challenge. I like to see how far I can push myself and what things I can actually get myself to do. Everyone always talks about how hard med-school is, which is a sort of standing-challenge to me.
5. I love wearing scrubs. And stethescopes 😉

I can't say the money thing is completely irrelevant, but I know for a fact that I could live the rest of my life on $30-50k a year (changing with inflation, of course!) and be happy so long as I was doing things that I felt were important. I could care less if I ever have a big beach-front house or wicked-fast car. So long as I could afford a library membership, a good meal from time to time, and enough money to travel around and stay in hostels once in a while, I'd be pretty damn happy no matter what I was doing.

The main self-centered reason for me is the flexibility. I once heard a fourth-year medical student say that medicine is like the liberal arts of grad school, and I tend to agree with him. Med-school opens up options, while most other grad-school choices close them. I love travelling, but at times I start to feel a little unneccessary when travelling. I'd love to be able to go down to honduras, or to kenya or nepal for a month or two and just give out free medical care and know first hand how much I am really doing for the people.

 

[gostudy]

Several things, and I've considered all of the other options you've mentioned. I've done reasearch and while I like to do it, I can't picture myself in a lab for the rest of my life. I'm pretty damn good at my research too, and I know I could help a broader base of people if I chose that route. I've considered nursing, but I've always been a person that likes to really know whats going on all the time. I like to know why a specific disease causes certain symptoms, etc. (I'll also admit that I don't take subservient roles very well, and tend to be pretty independant. I can work well with others, but I wouldn't handle an order-taking job for a long period of time very well.) I still haven't ruled out some more patient-oriented type position, though I doubt it because I do have a more technical brain and I like doing things myself whenever possible.

I've also considered the public health positions, and I would definately take that role in some situations, though not in general here in the states. In under-developed countries I would immediately step up to that role as I think more good can come of it than could from direct patient care, however here I think there are people that can do that job much more efficiently than I.

My main motives for medical school are the following:

1. Flexibility. With an MD, I know I could go pratically anywhere in the world, find some sort of job, and be useful and (hopefully) appreciated.
2. Problem solving. I love figuring out things, and I like using my brain as much as possible. Medicine combines more fields than any other single profession, and I love almost every one of those fields.
3. Interpersonal contact. This is one of the major reasons why I can't see myself in a full-time research position. I like having contact, and I like being able to see and talk to the people that I am helping.
4. Challenge. I like to see how far I can push myself and what things I can actually get myself to do. Everyone always talks about how hard med-school is, which is a sort of standing-challenge to me.
5. I love wearing scrubs. And stethescopes 😉

I can't say the money thing is completely irrelevant, but I know for a fact that I could live the rest of my life on $30-50k a year (changing with inflation, of course!) and be happy so long as I was doing things that I felt were important. I could care less if I ever have a big beach-front house or wicked-fast car. So long as I could afford a library membership, a good meal from time to time, and enough money to travel around and stay in hostels once in a while, I'd be pretty damn happy no matter what I was doing.

The main self-centered reason for me is the flexibility. I once heard a fourth-year medical student say that medicine is like the liberal arts of grad school, and I tend to agree with him. Med-school opens up options, while most other grad-school choices close them. I love travelling, but at times I start to feel a little unneccessary when travelling. I'd love to be able to go down to honduras, or to kenya or nepal for a month or two and just give out free medical care and know first hand how much I am really doing for the people.

I highly encourage you to come back and read this post a few years from now when you are an intern and see what you think about it. Kudos to you if you still feel the same way.

 

[infiniti]

austinap, I 😍 your post.

Several things, and I've considered all of the other options you've mentioned. I've done reasearch and while I like to do it, I can't picture myself in a lab for the rest of my life. I'm pretty damn good at my research too, and I know I could help a broader base of people if I chose that route. I've considered nursing, but I've always been a person that likes to really know whats going on all the time. I like to know why a specific disease causes certain symptoms, etc. (I'll also admit that I don't take subservient roles very well, and tend to be pretty independant. I can work well with others, but I wouldn't handle an order-taking job for a long period of time very well.) I still haven't ruled out some more patient-oriented type position, though I doubt it because I do have a more technical brain and I like doing things myself whenever possible.

I've also considered the public health positions, and I would definately take that role in some situations, though not in general here in the states. In under-developed countries I would immediately step up to that role as I think more good can come of it than could from direct patient care, however here I think there are people that can do that job much more efficiently than I.

My main motives for medical school are the following:

1. Flexibility. With an MD, I know I could go pratically anywhere in the world, find some sort of job, and be useful and (hopefully) appreciated.
2. Problem solving. I love figuring out things, and I like using my brain as much as possible. Medicine combines more fields than any other single profession, and I love almost every one of those fields.
3. Interpersonal contact. This is one of the major reasons why I can't see myself in a full-time research position. I like having contact, and I like being able to see and talk to the people that I am helping.
4. Challenge. I like to see how far I can push myself and what things I can actually get myself to do. Everyone always talks about how hard med-school is, which is a sort of standing-challenge to me.
5. I love wearing scrubs. And stethescopes 😉

I can't say the money thing is completely irrelevant, but I know for a fact that I could live the rest of my life on $30-50k a year (changing with inflation, of course!) and be happy so long as I was doing things that I felt were important. I could care less if I ever have a big beach-front house or wicked-fast car. So long as I could afford a library membership, a good meal from time to time, and enough money to travel around and stay in hostels once in a while, I'd be pretty damn happy no matter what I was doing.

The main self-centered reason for me is the flexibility. I once heard a fourth-year medical student say that medicine is like the liberal arts of grad school, and I tend to agree with him. Med-school opens up options, while most other grad-school choices close them. I love travelling, but at times I start to feel a little unneccessary when travelling. I'd love to be able to go down to honduras, or to kenya or nepal for a month or two and just give out free medical care and know first hand how much I am really doing for the people.

 

[nibrocli]

I just wanted to add something about the PA/NP role, in terms of autonomy and directing patient care. i work in a community clinic. We have an MD, PAs, and NPs. The PAs & NPs do the EXACT same job as the MD. Exactly. They have their own appointments and do not consult with the MD. The clinic does primary care and family planning.

The only difference is that the MD makes twice as much money. She should, she went through med school and residency. But in terms of the job itself, I cannot stress enough how independent and autonomous the PA & NP clinicians are.

I know this will vary depending on clinic, hospital, etc.

 

[austinap]

I'll try to remember to dig up the old posts and see 🙂 I do know what you're getting at, and I've talked to a lot of doctors and interns that love what they do, and just as many that hate what they do. As an intern you're more than likely not getting much out of any of the reasons I mentioned other than challenge. You probably don't get much autonomy, you probably don't make many decisions, and I'm sure you have almost no flexibility. What were your reasons? And do you still think they were good reasons?

 

[Brainsucker]

I just wanted to add something about the PA/NP role, in terms of autonomy and directing patient care. i work in a community clinic. We have an MD, PAs, and NPs. The PAs & NPs do the EXACT same job as the MD. Exactly. They have their own appointments and do not consult with the MD. The clinic does primary care and family planning.

The only difference is that the MD makes twice as much money. She should, she went through med school and residency. But in terms of the job itself, I cannot stress enough how independent and autonomous the PA & NP clinicians are.

I know this will vary depending on clinic, hospital, etc.

And that's why I don't want to be in primary care.

 

[nibrocli]

And that's why I don't want to be in primary care.

same here.

 

[StevenRF]

Who said anything about middle? I love science and engineering, and this is the highest paying option for which I can combine both. Well of course excluding some amazing discovery or patent.

 

[NonTradMed]

Well, I decided early on I was horrible with research so any Phd in the biological sciences was out for me. I like biology but I'd like to apply the concepts learned rather than do pure research----medicine offers this opportunity.

A physician also has a great deal of autonomy as compared to the midlevel practitioners you mentioned and I figure if I'm going to go into the health care field, might as well go into the field that will give me the most authority over a patient's treatment plan. And volunteering isn't a JOB so you can't really compare it to a paying position like medicine.

As for law or IB, I have no head for IB and decided the law field is not for me either. I like science better. And public policies don't interest me.

The money is certainly a factor in my decision. I want to be able to eventually live comfortably and provide for my family but it was not a make or break deal for me (as you implied). I went into this field for a number of reasons: the money, the stability, the science aspect, being able to help others, the interactions I get with my patients etc. I am not naive to make a pivotal career decision on one thing.

 

[masterMood]

none of you have gone through med. school, residency and/or fellowships (neither have I), but it seems to be the case that most people would not go through the route of becoming a doctor after going through all the bull**** just to end up with more bull****.

of course i'm completely optimistic about going into medical school, but I am prepared to realize that it could turn out to be a bad lifestyle, but as long as i can give a good lifestyle for my family and kids (that aren't conceived, but the boys are just killing for a good time if you know what i mean. Heck i'd have to get married too, i haven't even thought of that barrier as well)

 

[relentless11]

My main motives for medical school are the following:

1. Flexibility. With an MD, I know I could go pratically anywhere in the world, find some sort of job, and be useful and (hopefully) appreciated.
2. Problem solving. I love figuring out things, and I like using my brain as much as possible. Medicine combines more fields than any other single profession, and I love almost every one of those fields.
3. Interpersonal contact. This is one of the major reasons why I can't see myself in a full-time research position. I like having contact, and I like being able to see and talk to the people that I am helping.
4. Challenge. I like to see how far I can push myself and what things I can actually get myself to do. Everyone always talks about how hard med-school is, which is a sort of standing-challenge to me.
5. I love wearing scrubs. And stethescopes 😉

The main self-centered reason for me is the flexibility. I once heard a fourth-year medical student say that medicine is like the liberal arts of grad school, and I tend to agree with him. Med-school opens up options, while most other grad-school choices close them. I love travelling, but at times I start to feel a little unneccessary when travelling. I'd love to be able to go down to honduras, or to kenya or nepal for a month or two and just give out free medical care and know first hand how much I am really doing for the people.

I find these reasons to be misguided. Although I doubt this was your intention, it does sound like you are implying that physicians are the only ones that solve problems, and is a profession that has "almost every field" associated with it. This is a very naive perspective. I can say the same thing about PharmD's, PhD's, DDS's, DVM's....and the list goes on.

As a PhD student in pathology, I can be a professor, work in industry, be a consultant, etc etc. Physicians can do the same. My project relates to ICU patients and thus I attend weekly ICU rounds, diagnose, interact, and recuit patients into my study. The ONLY thing I cannot make patient care decisions. Thus, having and MD and passing your boards allows you to legally PRACTICE medicine, and this is WHY I will pursue an MD degree.

Although a PhD isn't required to do research in medicine, the rigors of my PhD program will make the first two years of med school a lot more pleasent. At least because I've taken the pathology courses already. Med school won't be a cakewalk, but med school doesn't have a qualifying exam either. Try having 3 PhD's and 2 MD's grill you for 3 hours on what you learned as a 1st year and 2nd year med student rather than taking USMLE Step 1.

In terms of patients, as a PhD I will need a physician to act as an intermediate if some kind of therapy is needed. As an MD, I will have to at least do a research fellowship to get some experience to do research. As an MD/PhD, I believe I can more adequately do patient care, and in some way push the realm of biomedical sciences forward. Thus my PhD will open more options rather than close them.

 

[omgwtfbbq?]

It's my dream to get my hands inside someone's chest cavity. medicine is really the only legal option I have to persue that dream.....

 

[Dr. Pepper]

I think that whenever people talk about medicine and the incentives for pursuing the profession, too many sweeping generalizations are made.

For the most part, I think everyone who goes into medicine considers that the lifestyle is a factor. It isn't necesarily a large factor, but it is comforting to know that you can do what you enjoy and live comfortably.

However, on the same token, when people simply say that they want to go into medicine to "help people," it is interpreted as: a. not genuine or b. misguided for the simple reason that there are many other professions that deal with helping people.

Really, when it comes down to it, medicine is a desired profession because of its ability to combine some of the favorable attributes of many other professions.

For example, some may say that using money as an excuse for being a doctor is baseless because those people could "just go into business or law," but once again, this motivation makes sense when it is brought into perspective as simply one part of the whole package. Sure, you can make good money as a lawyer or a businessman, but you can also have direct personal contact with people (which you can have in other professions), use a mixture of science and ethics/humanities etc.

Therefore, in order to answer your question, no matter how altruistic or egotistical you are, no one factor is enough to influence someone to maintain a lifelong dedication/career. Medicine is great for what it offers, and for the reason that what it offers is strengthened by its multifacated approach.

I'm not going to list all of the factors why I enjoy medicine because of time and apathy, but I think we can all agree that in order to go into medicine, many things have to fall into place, there are many obstacles, and medicine contains an interwoven web of opportunity and consequence.
-Dr. P.

 

[riceman04]

that medicine affords? i mean, to be honest, you can take care of patients as a nurse or PA. you can dish out drugs as a nurse anesthesiologist. you can contribute more to society at large by being a PhD researcher. you might possibly impact the community more by doing public health advocacy or working in hospital administration. you can help the sick and the indigent and the elderly by volunteering in a hospital or shelter or nusing home.

and don't give me the stuff like "if i wanted to make money, id go into ibanking or law school". medicine is pretty much one of the few options for a student from a typical undergraduate school can access (in a relatively straightforward manner) to break securely into the upper middle class. even a lot of kids from ivy league schools don't get into good law schools or get investment banking jobs.

so apart from the eventual promise of a 200-400k/yr salary, im curious as to what reasons you have.

a good amt of that 200 - 400k you speak of will go towards malprac. insurance.

 

[OctoDoc]

There have been a lot of threads with this subject, three in particular of which I am aware in the past few weeks.

I have learned from these threads that one's desire to be a doctor is either unarticulatable (if that is a word, but I'm sure you get my meaning) or individualized without exception. Even from this particular thread you can see that someone will have a problem with anything that is said about the motivations for wanting to be a doctor.

So, the only safe, and perhaps true statement is, "I want to be a doctor for my own reasons, which you cannot fully understand because you are not me."

Of course, someone will have a problem with that statement.

 

[CruiseLover]

I'm also always amazed why your title is "upper middle class" when you're assuming 200-400K/yr. salary. Do you know what the average nationwide salary is? What do you consider wealthy? Were you born with a silver spoon in your mouth?

 

[OctoDoc]

I'm also always amazed why your title is "upper middle class" when you're assuming 200-400K/yr. salary. Do you know what the average nationwide salary is? What do you consider wealthy? Were you born with a silver spoon in your mouth?

In defense of the OP, I think he meant the upper middle class lifestyle, as which one can live, even though the income can afford better. You'll just have more money in the bank, so to speak.

 

[Law2Doc]

it seems to be the case that most people would not go through the route of becoming a doctor after going through all the bull**** just to end up with more bull****.

There will always be more bull****. At the other end it's primarilly going to be insurance company bull****. Don't be too surprised if incomes don't stay quite as rosy as they are today and your level of paperwork increases remarkably -- physicians are no longer driving this train.

 

[Wackie]

All I want to be able to do is pay my bills and go out to eat once a week. Seriously, that's it.
The reason I'm running this marathon is for the job. It's dynamic and challenging. I love gathering information and coming up with a solution. I'm my own mechanic and love diagnosing and fixing my truck. I'm much more interested in the human body, so gathering history, signs and symptoms and then diganosing and fixing a person who will "run smoother" because of it...it absolutly tickles me since I want people to feel better.
I honestly can not imagine doing anything else...regardless of what a physician's salary will be in the future.

Hell, after my schooling and residency, I hope to be able to take a group, as often as I can, and provide free services to those in need (in this country or another). Fixing people is like breathing to me (though requires more effort 😀 ). I've got to do it.

 

[Pancho Villa]

i'm pretty much all about the money. i'm not ****ing working an 80 hour week just to get pocket change.

 

[Law2Doc]

i'm not ****ing working an 80 hour week just to get pocket change.

That is the definition of residency actually.

 

[Anastasis]

That is the definition of residency actually.

So true!

 

[ssefase]

you can do a lot more as a doctor to help, than you can as a nurse. For Instance, you have the knowledge and the ability to open up your own clinic in another country. whereas it would be a lot more difficult to do as a nurse.

 

[trustwomen]

I'll try to remember to dig up the old posts and see 🙂 I do know what you're getting at, and I've talked to a lot of doctors and interns that love what they do, and just as many that hate what they do. As an intern you're more than likely not getting much out of any of the reasons I mentioned other than challenge. You probably don't get much autonomy, you probably don't make many decisions, and I'm sure you have almost no flexibility. What were your reasons? And do you still think they were good reasons?

You know, I think a lot of people use the fact that they got cynical as god-given proof that it's inevitable. It's not. You can keep your generosity and good intentions, if you stay humble and grateful for all you've been given (and if you're a med student/resident/doctor, I promise you've been given a lot). It's all about attitude.

I really understood your post, austinap, as I feel much the same way. When I was a starry-eyed 22-year-old, people smiled condescendingly and said that I should "keep up that good attitude" as long as I could, with the assumption that it would inevitably go away after a few years in "the real world". They did not know what I had already seen and overcome in my life. I have been a social worker since then and have seen a lot of really harsh things. And I am now a starry-eyed 29-year-old. I know (now) that I can't save the entire world, but I refuse to use that as an excuse to become self-centered and bitter. I still envision a life of service as the greatest good I can do - and as my duty. I think your reasons will serve you well and will help you avoid bitterness - remember, if all else fails, you still get to wear pajamas (scrubs)to work!

 

[Rafa]

You know, I think a lot of people use the fact that they got cynical as god-given proof that it's inevitable. It's not. You can keep your generosity and good intentions, if you stay humble and grateful for all you've been given (and if you're a med student/resident/doctor, I promise you've been given a lot). It's all about attitude.

I really understood your post, austinap, as I feel much the same way. When I was a starry-eyed 22-year-old, people smiled condescendingly and said that I should "keep up that good attitude" as long as I could, with the assumption that it would inevitably go away after a few years in "the real world". They did not know what I had already seen and overcome in my life. I have been a social worker since then and have seen a lot of really harsh things. And I am now a starry-eyed 29-year-old. I know (now) that I can't save the entire world, but I refuse to use that as an excuse to become self-centered and bitter. I still envision a life of service as the greatest good I can do - and as my duty. I think your reasons will serve you well and will help you avoid bitterness - remember, if all else fails, you still get to wear pajamas (scrubs)to work!

👍 Yup. It's a wolf-in-a-manger syndrome, AKA "I lost it, so I'll go out of my way to tell every Tom, Dick and Jane that s/he'll lose it too!"

 

[Law2Doc]

👍 Yup. It's a wolf-in-a-manger syndrome, AKA "I lost it, so I'll go out of my way to tell every Tom, Dick and Jane that s/he'll lose it too!"

Perhaps, although I think it's probably more of a light at the end of the tunnel is really a train syndrome. Folks are premed in college, bust their a$$es in med school and then become part of a hierarchy where they are at the bottom and pi$$ed on (figuratively and litterally) by everyone for a bunch of years. Then they get out and realize that practice is nothing like they thought, that they don't have the autonomy they hoped, don't get the respect that they hoped, they don't earn the salary they hoped, don't have the lifestyle they hoped. Realists and folks who have been out in the world tend to do much better than idealists in handling this ego blow.
It's clear from SDN when you read posts by folks already counting their mansions and Bentleys and trophy wives and derm residencies, and thinking that a high MCAT score means some form of certain path in life, that a lot of people are in for a rude awakening. And everyone on here will know folks from college who are doing better than them while working fewer hours. If you are excited about what you do, and less concerned with the magnitude of some of the perqs, your life will go smashingly. If you are focused on other things, you may be in for some upsets. Good luck all.

 

[slackerjock99]

and don't give me the stuff like "if i wanted to make money, id go into ibanking or law school". medicine is pretty much one of the few options for a student from a typical undergraduate school can access (in a relatively straightforward manner) to break securely into the upper middle class. even a lot of kids from ivy league schools don't get into good law schools or get investment banking jobs.

I went to an ivy undergrad and everyone i know who wanted a job in finance got one.

The question i have is, if you just want money as a practitioner, why not dentistry? For more info, read my signature.

 

[trustwomen]

I'm also always amazed why your title is "upper middle class" when you're assuming 200-400K/yr. salary. Do you know what the average nationwide salary is? What do you consider wealthy? Were you born with a silver spoon in your mouth?

I absolutely agree with this. And OctoDoc, I know there are some doctors that don't spend all their money (good for them) but that doesn't make them middle-class (although they might live like the middle class).

I think we also need to keep in mind that a lot of the trappings of "middle-class" these days, big house, nice car etc.. are actually not affordable for those who are middle-class (say 50-150K/year, though I know that's debatable). The record levels of debt attest to this. Perhaps we need to call them what they are, the trappings of the wealthy - but which make the middle-class feel like failures if they don't have them. The difference between doctors and the middle class may not be obvious in lifestyle, except that the doctors can actually afford that lifestyle.

I blame TV - the only people we think of as "wealthy" anymore are the Paris Hiltons of the world, and the (wealthy) people who get their huge houses redecorated on TV are falsely presented as middle-class. Meanwhile, a few hundred million people are living on 40K or less and wondering when their ship will come in. Then we wonder why we're so close to an all-out class war.

 

[trustwomen]

Perhaps, although I think it's probably more of a light at the end of the tunnel is really a train syndrome. Folks are premed in college, bust their a$$es in med school and then become part of a hierarchy where they are at the bottom and pi$$ed on (figuratively and litterally) by everyone for a bunch of years. Then they get out and realize that practice is nothing like they thought, that they don't have the autonomy they hoped, don't get the respect that they hoped, they don't earn the salary they hoped, don't have the lifestyle they hoped. Realists and folks who have been out in the world tend to do much better than idealists in handling this ego blow.
It's clear from SDN when you read posts by folks already counting their mansions and Bentleys and trophy wives and derm residencies, and thinking that a high MCAT score means some form of certain path in life, that a lot of people are in for a rude awakening. And everyone on here will know folks from college who are doing better than them while working fewer hours. If you are excited about what you do, and less concerned with the magnitude of some of the perqs, your life will go smashingly. If you are focused on other things, you may be in for some upsets. Good luck all.

I think that rather than saying "idealists vs. realists", it might be more appropriate to say "the humble vs. the egotistical". There are a lot of overinflated egos on SDN and those are, indeed, the ones who will be in for a rude awakening. I don't think idealism, if combined with humility, will lead to that kind of fall. You may have to rethink the effect YOU will likely have on the world (i.e. you will be a cog and not a messiah) but a real idealist (not an egotist in disguise) will adapt fairly quickly to the idea of being the best damn cog they can be. A useful cog. I get the feeling austinap is that kind of idealist.

And you can't deny that an MD does give you flexibility in your career. You can find useful work pretty much anywhere in the world, you will make enough money to live comfortably wherever you are, etc...

 

[trustwomen]

I went to an ivy undergrad and everyone i know who wanted a job in finance got one.

The question i have is, if you just want money as a practitioner, why not dentistry? For more info, read my signature.

You know, I'm thinking that you might want to get premeds interested in dentistry so that there will be less competition for you to get into med school...

 

[abby66]

Medicine is a calling. simple as that. True, you can make more money as a dentist. You can make a good living as a nurse or a PA with much less schooling. However, anyone who enters medicine for the money is biting off more than they can chew. Yes, as an MD you will probably make a decent living, but as the daughter of a doctor, I can tell you that it is a long road and 9 out of 10 will not make anywhere near what they should for how hard they work. You can't do it for the money. You must do it because it is what you want to do. Don't let anyone choose for you, because if you have to be talked into it, it is the WRONG profession for you!

 

[dbhvt]

You know, I'm thinking that you might want to get premeds interested in dentistry so that there will be less competition for you to get into med school...

I like this theory. I'm going to steal it if that's ok.

 

[trustwomen]

I like this theory. I'm going to steal it if that's ok.

Be my guest. 🙂

 

[slackerjock99]

Medicine is a calling. simple as that. True, you can make more money as a dentist. You can make a good living as a nurse or a PA with much less schooling. However, anyone who enters medicine for the money is biting off more than they can chew. Yes, as an MD you will probably make a decent living, but as the daughter of a doctor, I can tell you that it is a long road and 9 out of 10 will not make anywhere near what they should for how hard they work. You can't do it for the money. You must do it because it is what you want to do. Don't let anyone choose for you, because if you have to be talked into it, it is the WRONG profession for you!

Amazing post. Pleasy sticky this post so that all premeds have the chance to read it. Unfortunately, premeds are usually under age 22 and have no tested theory of the 'real world' apart from MTV.

Can someone try elucidating to these premeds, the real world picture of MD prestige?

 

[CTSballer11]

Amazing post. Pleasy sticky this post so that all premeds have the chance to read it. Unfortunately, premeds are usually under age 22 and have no tested theory of the 'real world' apart from MTV.

Can someone try elucidating to these premeds, the real world picture of MD prestige?

I have to say that dentistry is looking very good right now. Does your wife really work around 30 hours a week and is she making around 400k? My mother is a dental hygenist and she tells me things like that. I just have trouble believing it.

 

[austinap]

I'm sure there's some truth to the dentists salary thing. My dad is a dentist (and I know a few of his friends, who are also dentists) and they're all doing quite well. Dentists have been some of the coolest people I've met (laid back, generally fairly smart, travel a lot, know how to have some fun, etc...), but dentistry isn't for me. If I wanted dentistry or the money, I could go to dental school and take over my dad's practice when I got out, and make a ton more money doing that than if I went to med-school (there's always the potential I'd make more going to medschool, but I'm not counting on it).

 

[roo425]

All I want to be able to do is pay my bills and go out to eat once a week. Seriously, that's it.
The reason I'm running this marathon is for the job. It's dynamic and challenging. I love gathering information and coming up with a solution. I'm my own mechanic and love diagnosing and fixing my truck. I'm much more interested in the human body, so gathering history, signs and symptoms and then diganosing and fixing a person who will "run smoother" because of it...it absolutly tickles me since I want people to feel better.
I honestly can not imagine doing anything else...regardless of what a physician's salary will be in the future.

Hell, after my schooling and residency, I hope to be able to take a group, as often as I can, and provide free services to those in need (in this country or another). Fixing people is like breathing to me (though requires more effort 😀 ). I've got to do it.

Since you mentioned about 'taking a group and provide free service', I've got a question for you. What specialty do you consider to pursue? I know it's very off the topic but going somewhere and providing free service is one of my dream. I have been thinking about what specialty might be good for that purpose. Personally, I want to do emergency medicine but I thought EM might not be very useful if I really want to go somewhere and provide free service.

 

[cdclled]

Some of the misconceptions about the medical profession posted in this thread are disturbing. Many physicians I have worked with did not fully pay off their student loans until their early forties, especially in primary care specialties. If premed students would just do some research they would realize that a significant number of doctors are quite frustrated with the profession at this point.
Here are some excerpts from the physician's blog site www.kevinmd.com/blog

I wouldn't even think of going into medicine. All of your concerns are huge and will only be worse. I have no faith that government can make any fundamental changes to improve things. Look at how the government has bungled social security reform, immigration reform, hurricane Katrina, the current tax code, etc... Health care is a thousand times more complex than those issues.

I am 42 years old and I still enjoy it as a career and have resigned myself to the fact that my path is set. It is too late for me to jump ship, although I am exploring opportunities to decrease patient care hours even at the expense of less income. I am in a high risk specialty and have had to endure 4 lawsuits that take years until exoneration. I have some brilliant and smart children but I will not offer much encouragement towards a career in medicine.
# posted by chuck : 9:30 AM


I am also in a high risk specialty, Emergency Medicine. I cannot leave because I currently support several family members, though I have cut my hours over the years. For me it is the Liability crisis. If I worked in a Pizzeria and I needed to earn a few extra bucks, I could just "pick up some overtime". In Emergency Medicine I have to think that every extra patient I see could be a lawsuit so I can't do extra shifts. What's remarkable to me is that in the past 3 months TWO of my colleagues quit to go into other fields. One is leaving medicine Entirely for an Office Job. She had only been a doc for 3 years. She got tired of the liability, and the fact that it's gotten so busy she can't PEE when she wants to and doesn't get a lunch break, like the rest of the world.
# posted by Anonymous : 10:45 AM


The decent (NOT rich) salary I get from busting my hump caring for patients sure as hell isn't worth it anymore. I'm in a pulmonary/critical care practice, and between the level of stress in caring for increasingly sick and complex patients, increasing numbers of times I have to come into the hospital after hours, the increasing number of difficult to deal with families, the stress of thinking that every patient you see may sue you (or to be threatened with lawsuits by families), the decreasing level of reimbursement, the increasing costs of overhead (not just malpractice) and with knowing that this incompetent Congress and Presidency can't (or won't) fix our healthcare woes, I'm looking to get the hell out of this profession. To continue this job means I'll be looking at an earlier grave. I'm 54 years old now, and while some may consider it too late to get out, I'm doing this to protect my sanity and my health.
# posted by ismd : 11:10 AM

Anon 12:04,

No, actually, it never was about an easy way to make money, despite the public's continued misperception about our salaries and motivation. It's everything else that goes with the job that's getting tiresome. And there's no way I'm gonna stop having temper tantrums, as you so fondly call them, not when my profession is being raped and pillaged by lawyers, the government and an uncaring public. There's one thing you fail to realize - healthcare in this country is going down the tubes, and it's citizens like yourselves, who don't have a clue as to what we go through on a daily basis, who are enabling the impending disasters in healthcare delivery. Yet when it's your insurance company who denies your medicine or your procedure or your MRI, it's US you whine to, and expect us to fix the problem. You know what? It ISN'T my problem, but yours, because it's YOUR insurance plan that you never bothered to understand.

If you think we're merely whining about our salaries, you're wrong. However, I do have a right to "whine", as you put it, when the profession I used to love goes down the tubes and you guys think it's all our fault. I'm entitiled to "whine" when I work in the only profession in this country NOT allowed to increase prices to compensate for increasing overhead. I'm entitled to whine when I get threatened with lawsuits by difficult to deal with families who want me to override their 98 year old family member's living will which says "do nothing". I'm entitled to "whine" when patients call with nonsense complaints they've had for months, and demand immediate office visits, or worse, call with these same chronic complaints in the middle of the night. I can whine when insurance companies deny reimbursements on a whim, or lose the claim my office submitted for the fifth time.

I'm no longer seeing Medicaid patients because I lose money every time I do, and that doesn't make me a money grubber or a dishonorable public servant, as some of the public would believe. I soon won't be seeing Medicare Patients with Medicaid secondary insurance because, in my state, I don't get paid the 20% Medicare allows. Medicine is a business, not a charity, and while I don't like cutting back on patients, it's a financial reality. If I don't make money, then I'm not in business.


“I'm frustrated and disillusioned. I do not know one single M.D. who is happy right now, and many are actively looking for a way out. The system is all very broken. But the health plans, the insurance companies, are all more solvent than ever.”
-Dr. Patrick Lyden, neurologitst UCSD,
Survey foresees exodus of physicians. San Diego Union – Tribune. July 14, 2001.




If you really want to educate yourself on what you think is an "ideal" profession, go read an article about defensive medicine - http://www.physweekly.com/article.asp?issueid=317&articleid=2982
or Drs being forced to let patients die rather than risking a lawsuit - http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,118049,00.html
or read why the best students are no longer going into medicine - http://www.memag.com/memag/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=133883

Then if you still feel you want to pursue medicine, you can at least do it a little less blindly.

 

[fewchewrmd]

I'm also always amazed why your title is "upper middle class" when you're assuming 200-400K/yr. salary. Do you know what the average nationwide salary is? What do you consider wealthy? Were you born with a silver spoon in your mouth?

Just yesterday I read an article on Yahoo! about incomes and what ranges each "class" comprises. Upper middle class starts around 150k and tops out at 300k, varying greatly on the area of the county you live in. To live well in CA or NY you have to be pulling in the upper range of that salary - the main driver being very expensive cost of living. I don't think the poster was necessarily wrong.

 

[MedicineNutt]

what is lower class salaries?^
that high middle class sounds kinda inflated

 

[Law2Doc]

what is lower class salaries?^
that high middle class sounds kinda inflated

You have to realize that high costs of living in certain cities on either coast skew the numbers. You can be earning six digits in Manhattan and be living pretty modestly. That same money in a small town in the midwest goes considerably further.

 

[LJDHC05]

Good Post cdclled. I think it brings out some of the uglier realities of medicine that we pre-meds tend to blindly ignore or are completely ignorant to.

Medicine is not the lucrative field that it once was because everyone wants a slice of the pie. Insurers penalize physicians for performing "unnecessary" tests, malpractice insurers charge rediculous premiums, $200K+ education expenses that have to be paid off within 10 years of graduation when you're making $35-50K as a resident with "80 hour" work weeks (more like 100 if you include "off the clock time where you're strongly encouraged to stay and watch this"), lease and other expenses for your private practice, the vanity plates for your car, legal fees for your divorce lawyer, alimony and child support after your ex gets full custody of the kids because you're "never around", your increasing drinking habit to dull the pain...not to mention the insurance premiums on your porsche after 2 DUI's.

Yes, I am having the "what the hell did I just get myself into" jitters. But, I'm into it because it's the only job where I can feel good about what I do, make enough money to pay off my loans and buy a nice old farm house, have job security (people arent going to stop getting sick all of a sudden), and because I want to make a goddamned difference in the way that things get done in medicine. Oh, and because I cant imagine doing anything else with the remainder of my 76 or so years on this earth.

 

[joedoctor]

.

 

[trustwomen]

what is lower class salaries?^
that high middle class sounds kinda inflated

According to the New York Times' Class Matters series, and census data from 2000 and 2003, the lower class makes under 25K, the middle class makes between 25K and 70K, and the upper class makes over 70K. So yes, please rethink this, people. Certainly, living in a large urban center could skew your lifestyle, but I once made 40K/year in NYC and considered myself middle-class.

I just don't think you can say that 150K is middle class. My SO's sister makes a bit less than that and lives an upper-class lifestyle in Manhattan, debt-free. Again, people are confounding "upper-class" with "incredibly wealthy". Try to compare yourself to the vast majority of workers out there, you'll feel better.

 

[masterMood]

According to the New York Times' Class Matters series, and census data from 2000 and 2003, the lower class makes under 25K, the middle class makes between 25K and 70K, and the upper class makes over 70K. So yes, please rethink this, people. Certainly, living in a large urban center could skew your lifestyle, but I once made 40K/year in NYC and considered myself middle-class.

I just don't think you can say that 150K is middle class. My SO's sister makes a bit less than that and lives an upper-class lifestyle in Manhattan, debt-free. Again, people are confounding "upper-class" with "incredibly wealthy". Try to compare yourself to the vast majority of workers out there, you'll feel better.

If you live in Dubai, that 150k ain't gonna be enough.