How many people in your class are applying rads this year?

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hawkward

hawkward

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Radiology has had fewer and fewer applicants since 2010.

Any MS4's out there have any insight into how many in your class are interested this year? More or less than last year?

Im in a class of about 180 and we have 10 applicants so far vs. 8 last year.
 
2 years ago - 8
Last year - 5
This year - 5
 
2 years ago -15
Last year - 3
This year - 1
 
Though may be temporary, the past few months the job market has been fine and much better than 2-3 years ago. If it stays like this, you will be able to find a job in your desirable location albeit with some compromises.
 
Job market fine? What do you base this statement on? I have been looking around here for many years and few decent jobs have come up. Hear the few openings get dozens of applicants.
 
There are no jobs. Market keeps on getting worse. Lot of people doing second fellowships, which was unheard of in the past and it's unheard in most other specialties except pathology.
 
radman123 said:
Job market fine? What do you base this statement on? I have been looking around here for many years and few decent jobs have come up. Hear the few openings get dozens of applicants.
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You seem to be overall negative about Radiology in general. I don't get it. Would you rather be a Hospitalist doing long H&Ps, doing discharge summaries, etc.?
 
DermViser said:
You seem to be overall negative about Radiology in general. I don't get it. Would you rather be a Hospitalist doing long H&Ps, doing discharge summaries, etc.?
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No, at this point in my career/life I would rather leave medicine or cut back hours but I can not because I am not financially independent yet.

I used to love radiology when I was a resident and fellow and early attending. The money was great. The future was bright. The material was new and exciting. I had a good partner job in a bad location.

Then I took a job which I thought would be fine in a better location. The schedule, unfairness, volume demands particularly on call, pay cuts, lack of control as an employee have burned me out. The treatment from administration, the way our field has become like a commodity, few career choices, low stability etc. has made me really dislike radiology. The market is so crappy and the quality of jobs so low that I have almost given up looking.

Kind of bored after all these years. Would like to try something new but I have invested too much and am getting kind of old. Pains me to see all these bright students going into radiology. Tough long road with poor rewards at the present time for new grads. Radiology may be interesting on a four week rotation but the real world of practice is not so much currently.
 
radman123 said:
No, at this point in my career/life I would rather leave medicine or cut back hours but I can not because I am not financially independent yet.

I used to love radiology when I was a resident and fellow and early attending. The money was great. The future was bright. The material was new and exciting. I had a good partner job in a bad location.

Then I took a job which I thought would be fine in a better location. The schedule, unfairness, volume demands particularly on call, pay cuts, lack of control as an employee have burned me out. The treatment from administration, the way our field has become like a commodity, few career choices, low stability etc. has made me really dislike radiology. The market is so crappy and the quality of jobs so low that I have almost given up looking.

Kind of bored after all these years. Would like to try something new but I have invested too much and am getting kind of old. Pains me to see all these bright students going into radiology. Tough long road with poor rewards at the present time for new grads. Radiology may be interesting on a four week rotation but the real world of practice is not so much currently.
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But all specialties get boring when you're done with training and practicing as an attending. This applies to all areas of medicine. Did you do a fellowship? Seems like you hate the actual job environment you're in and not the actual field itself.
 
Yes did a fellowship which has poor marketability right now, I feel like I am stuck in a bad job. There are few other options. There have been layoffs where I work. I feel like I am hoping it lasts even though I hate it because I want to get to the finish line of financial independence. Not the way I thought it eould end up. Easier ways to end up like this.
 
radman123 said:
Yes did a fellowship which has poor marketability right now, I feel like I am stuck in a bad job. There are few other options. There have been layoffs where I work. I feel like I am hoping it lasts even though I hate it because I want to get to the finish line of financial independence. Not the way I thought it eould end up. Easier ways to end up like this.
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Your experience is on the very bad side. Most people have much better experience than you even now.

I even didn't know about it, but I did a search of south California IR fellows job placement. I already posted it in IR forum in response to someone's post. I paste it here:

I came up with USC fellow placements. You can check yourself. Out of 12 fellows in the last 3 years, 10 have found a job in south California. One ended up in Las Vegas and one in a small town in Arizona. I guarantee that except for Manhattan and a few other markets, most of other markets are (much) better than South California. Also though USC is a very solid IR program, its graduates are second to UCLA and UCSD graduates when it comes to job hunt.

Disclaimer: I don't have any relation to USC and didn't have my education there.

So as you see, 10/12 of USC IR fellows found a job in South Cali. And we don't know whether the other two couldn't find a job or wanted to move to Vegas or Arizona. I personally expected 6-7/12 job placement in the tight market of south Cali. Anyway, if this is the case, finding a job in mid-west or Texas should be much much easier. I doubt any other field except for primary care is better than this.

Mammo market is better or as good as IR. MSK is not as good as IR, but still you can find a job in your area. Neuro and Body are not good but still people find a job outside big cities.

I don't accuse you of being a troll, but your experience is way different than my experience or the real world. Both of us are anonymous on this forum. We are as valid or as invalid as each other and both of us claim that we are talking about our experience here without trolling or twisting the facts. However, I give people real life evidence here. Now whether to believe me or you is up to the people on this forum.
 
radman123 said:
Yes did a fellowship which has poor marketability right now, I feel like I am stuck in a bad job. There are few other options. There have been layoffs where I work. I feel like I am hoping it lasts even though I hate it because I want to get to the finish line of financial independence. Not the way I thought it eould end up. Easier ways to end up like this.
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Out of curiosity, what field would you have done if not Radiology + fellowship? Not sure if you were an AMG or IMG.

Based on what you've said so far, your primary interest in getting out of the red with regards to student debt/financial independence vs. actual interest in the specialty, correct?
 
Shark, do not think it is about believing you or me. My experience is what it is. Not saying this will happen to anyone else, but my experience in a competitive metro area has been poor, same with those I work and those who have interviewed for jobs where I work.

Dermviser, I have no debt and have a networth (assets-liabilities) in the low 7 figures. But not enough for financial independence. Maybe another 10-15 years. It is not necessarily radiology that I dislike, but more my job and what is happening to the field. The lack of options. The crappy terms of the few that exist. I just happen to be one disgruntled attending who comes on here to vent ( there are many others).
 
radman123 said:
Shark, do not think it is about believing you or me. My experience is what it is. Not saying this will happen to anyone else, but my experience in a competitive metro area has been poor, same with those I work and those who have interviewed for jobs where I work.

Dermviser, I have no debt and have a networth (assets-liabilities) in the low 7 figures. But not enough for financial independence. Maybe another 10-15 years. It is not necessarily radiology that I dislike, but more my job and what is happening to the field. The lack of options. The crappy terms of the few that exist. I just happen to be one disgruntled attending who comes on here to vent ( there are many others).
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Please phrase your post correctly. YOU CLAIM that this is your experience or other radiologists experience.

Just saying that this is what you CLAIM, may be right or wrong. Nobody knows. You may be a college student or an MS4 applying this year or may be an attending. Nothing to prove it. The same for me. I may be a high school junior.

I show some evidence that what I say is closer to real world that what you say. You have not shown us any evidence other than repeating your ... over and over again.
 
shark2000 said:
Please phrase your post correctly. YOU CLAIM that this is your experience or other radiologists experience.

Just saying that this is what you CLAIM, may be right or wrong. Nobody knows. You may be a college student or an MS4 applying this year or may be an attending. Nothing to prove it. The same for me. I may be a high school junior.

I show some evidence that what I say is closer to real world that what you say. You have not shown us any evidence other than repeating your ... over and over again.
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One thing I consistently notice in most of the posts on this forum in general is that when people talk about the different fellowships, they never seem to include NIR. Do you lump this together with IR or neuro? Or do not really consider NIR a fellowship anymore? Just curious. Thanks.
 
TUGM said:
One thing I consistently notice in most of the posts on this forum in general is that when people talk about the different fellowships, they never seem to include NIR. Do you lump this together with IR or neuro? Or do not really consider NIR a fellowship anymore? Just curious. Thanks.
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I think this is because NIR is seen as a dying field as neurosurg is taking it over.
 
TUGM said:
One thing I consistently notice in most of the posts on this forum in general is that when people talk about the different fellowships, they never seem to include NIR. Do you lump this together with IR or neuro? Or do not really consider NIR a fellowship anymore? Just curious. Thanks.
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NeuroIR has become a niche market limited to academic centers and some large multi-specialty practices similar to Brain PET scan or Cardiac MRI. Very few if any jobs available and the already available market is encroached on by neurosurgeons. Most predictions about many endovascular procedures turned out to be wrong or at least not as effective as once thought to be. Even if you are a neurologist or a neurosurgeon it is going to be a small part of your practice other than a few exceptions.

NeuroIR does not have to do anything with IR.You can do a NeuroIR fellowship for 3 years, but you may not end up doing more than spine injections and few diagnostic angiograms (skills that a diagnostic neurorad has).
 
radman123 said:
Dermviser, I have no debt and have a networth (assets-liabilities) in the low 7 figures. But not enough for financial independence. Maybe another 10-15 years. It is not necessarily radiology that I dislike, but more my job and what is happening to the field. The lack of options. The crappy terms of the few that exist. I just happen to be one disgruntled attending who comes on here to vent ( there are many others).
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Ok, so it's mainly based on your actual job (and lack of mobility to hop to another job), but not really the specialty itself.
 
The job market is definitely opening up. While still not great in comparison to 2005-2009, its not as tight as it was in 2011-2013. All the fellows in my large academic program found jobs by Spring. Several had multiple offers. Fellows who wanted to were able to go to NY or Cali. Looking at the ACR jobs postings, there are currently 231 postings (http://jobs.acr.org/jobseeker/search/results/?t730=&t732=&t731=&t1841=&t733=&t735=&t42306=&max=25&site_id=10051&search=Find Jobs), while it was below 100 just a year ago. The key is a versatile skill set and some degree of flexibility as far as location.
 
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Illusive Man said:
The job market is definitely opening up. While still not great in comparison to 2005-2009, its not as tight as it was in 2011-2013. All the fellows in my large academic program found jobs by Spring. Several had multiple offers. Fellows who wanted to were able to go to NY or Cali. Looking at the ACR jobs postings, there are currently 231 postings (http://jobs.acr.org/jobseeker/search/results/?t730=&t732=&t731=&t1841=&t733=&t735=&t42306=&max=25&site_id=10051&search=Find Jobs), while it was in the 60-90 range just a year ago. The key is a versatile skill set and some degree of flexibility as far as location.
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Wait what? I've watched the ACR jobs board and there has been a steady 180-280 jobs for as far as I can remember? When was it 60-90?
 
qwerty89 said:
Wait what? I've watched the ACR jobs board and there has been a steady 180-280 jobs for as far as I can remember? When was it 60-90?
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Qwerty, I am not certain when I saw it. I have been following the ACR jobs tracking board month to month as well. 60 may have been low, but I definitely remember the number dipping into the high 80s at least a year ago. I agree most of last year however, it has been in the 100s. Apologies for any misinformation, and I edited my original post.
 
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It is not just the quantity of jobs. Many of the jobs posted are looking for subspecialties particularly breast and IR. Some of the "jobs" are for fellowships. Jobs for general radiologists have nearly disappeared. Few jobs for body, neuro, msk. Many telerad night shift type jobs. Many employee type positions. These are not prime jobs. And when you got 200 jobs posted for all those grads and others who want to switch, the competition becomes fierce, especially for decent locations.
 
It should surprise no one that the jobs listed on the ACR site are relatively unattractive. That's not the point. The point is that it's a surrogate marker for the job market. The good jobs are still unadvertised, but as the market improves the ACR site will list more jobs. That's why it's useful. Anyone who ignores that has an agenda.
 
Baller MD said:
Stable as in no increase or decrease in jobs?
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Stable as it is clearly stated in the article that "Presently, there should be a job for all finishing residents."

And as colbgw02 pointed out that good jobs are not advertised. Almost all fellows at my program got a job that was not advertised on the ACR site.
 
samurai7 said:
Stable as it is clearly stated in the article that "Presently, there should be a job for all finishing residents."

And as colbgw02 pointed out that good jobs are not advertised. Almost all fellows at my program got a job that was not advertised on the ACR site.
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I would surmise that most of these are in BFE... the only question is how BF in E. Is there a Walmart and McDonald's? Is there just a Walmart? Or is there neither? Many of the medical subspecialties are facing the same issue. Sure, no one has ever heard of an unemployed physician, but a terrible job market is one where you have few to no options. You know the war is already lost when people start using phrases like "there SHOULD be a job for all finishing residents."
 
Silent Cool said:
I'm not sure if you answered my question or not.

No, Radiology is not the next Path?

New Partner in PP--how many years would that be? 10? 5? 2?
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cool down man.

No means no. I have been in practice for more than 2 years. Partnership tracks are about 2-3 years these years.

If you are very concerned about this field, go and do another field. Nobody can guarantee anything, not in this field and not in any other field.
 
I am approaching the middle third of my career (I hope).

The job market in my area is dismal (desirable metro). Sure few jobs advertised, but we had guys with 2 fellowships cold calling our group because they knew someone who knew someone who heard something about a potential opening. My crappy job is now considered ultra desirable because it is so tough for new grads to break into this market.

Partnership- ha ha! Maybe if you are lucky you can get one around here for a 3 year partnership, huge buy in, huge risk of falling apart due to many factors, huge tail if you leave, huge potential for churn and burn and abuse, etc. The few offers around here I have heard of are low 2s with little upside. Not far off from primary care.

And if you have lived in nice areas, metros etc., do not kid yourself thinking that the boons will be ok. Spend a month in a small town in the midwest and see how much you like it and raising your kids there, especially if you are not white christian. No amount of money or doing what you like in medicine will make you or family happy.
 
radman123 said:
I am approaching the middle third of my career (I hope).

The job market in my area is dismal (desirable metro). Sure few jobs advertised, but we had guys with 2 fellowships cold calling our group because they knew someone who knew someone who heard something about a potential opening. My crappy job is now considered ultra desirable because it is so tough for new grads to break into this market.

Partnership- ha ha! Maybe if you are lucky you can get one around here for a 3 year partnership, huge buy in, huge risk of falling apart due to many factors, huge tail if you leave, huge potential for churn and burn and abuse, etc. The few offers around here I have heard of are low 2s with little upside. Not far off from primary care.

And if you have lived in nice areas, metros etc., do not kid yourself thinking that the boons will be ok. Spend a month in a small town in the midwest and see how much you like it and raising your kids there, especially if you are not white christian. No amount of money or doing what you like in medicine will make you or family happy.
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Could you please talk more about primary care and hospitalist jobs?
 
Sure. Primary care and hospitalist work sucks but at least you got a decent shot of living where you want at the present time. The training is 1/2 the length and there is the potential for loan payoff if you go to the boons. If you do not like your job than you got a shot of actually switching.
 
radman123 said:
I am approaching the middle third of my career (I hope).

The job market in my area is dismal (desirable metro). Sure few jobs advertised, but we had guys with 2 fellowships cold calling our group because they knew someone who knew someone who heard something about a potential opening. My crappy job is now considered ultra desirable because it is so tough for new grads to break into this market.

Partnership- ha ha! Maybe if you are lucky you can get one around here for a 3 year partnership, huge buy in, huge risk of falling apart due to many factors, huge tail if you leave, huge potential for churn and burn and abuse, etc. The few offers around here I have heard of are low 2s with little upside. Not far off from primary care.

And if you have lived in nice areas, metros etc., do not kid yourself thinking that the boons will be ok. Spend a month in a small town in the midwest and see how much you like it and raising your kids there, especially if you are not white christian. No amount of money or doing what you like in medicine will make you or family happy.
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I know the job market is not great, but your experience is bizarre to me. The fellows I have been close with at my institution have all found good PP jobs in the 300-400's range. All in metro areas. Maybe your'e just in the wrong area of the country :shrug:
 
IJL said:
I know the job market is not great, but your experience is bizarre to me. The fellows I have been close with at my institution have all found good PP jobs in the 300-400's range. All in metro areas. Maybe your'e just in the wrong area of the country :shrug:
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Yes absolutely true if we are talking about 2005 year. What experience do you have as a medical student? Your just holding your breath to finish intern year and move on the what you think will be better. THe metro/desirable areas are supersaturated to the extreme. These days, partner jobs, whatever is left of them are paying in the range you quoted in those areas.
 
IJL said:
The fellows I have been close with at my institution have all found good PP jobs in the 300-400's range. All in metro areas. Maybe your'e just in the wrong area of the country :shrug:
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I find this very hard to believe, unless it's mammo, and even so, those salaries you're quoting are too high. Most fellows now would be happy to find any job and many are doing second fellowships.
 
Think about what LJL and others are facing as they start their training.

Huge loans.

Declining reimbursement and salaries not too far from primary care for new grads in many locations.

Long work hours with weekends, holidays, evening and nights during residency and maybe even worse after.

A dreadful job market- not only in the sense of getting a position but the quality of few jobs available. Poor odds of getting anything decent near metros.

Screw job in terms of getting Board certified- graduating board eligible and competing against board certified applicants for few jobs, Having to study for boards during first job or second fellowship.

Long tough training now becoming more common to do 2 fellowships

Nothing being done about any of these issues.

No bright light at the end of the tunnel!

Now if I was facing this, perhaps I would be delusional also.
 
gonogo said:
I find this very hard to believe, unless it's mammo, and even so, those salaries you're quoting are too high. Most fellows now would be happy to find any job and many are doing second fellowships.
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And I find this very hard to believe that you are not a troll !

I just don't understand how my experience has been so different from yours or Radman's. I have been in touch with atleast 50 fellows in the past few years and I am yet to come across someone who had to do 2 fellowships to find "A" Job. Most of them found a job in their fields within an hours drive from their preferred location. One guy wanted to stay in the area where he did his training at (my institution) but there were no job openings at that time (1 year ago). However, he is back as an attending this year.

Having said all this, I agree, that finding a 400K job in a "metro" area is not common these days but it is still possible. I also want to assure you that your or radman's experiences have not and will not influence anyone's decision about going into radiology because there are outliers in every field og medicine. I am sure there are orthopods out there that are not happy with their jobs.

You both are as anonymous as I am but clearly you both find yourself in the bottom 0.5% of radiologsts who just had it rough. Maybe you made some bad decisions about choosing a fellowship that has zero value these days or your expectations about radiology or medicine in general were or still are unrealistic.
 
I have never heard of anyone doing 2 fellowships (outside of FMG's). Ever. Not saying that it doesn't happen, just that I've never even heard of anyone doing that.

These people in here are trolling so hard in here, need to be stopped.
 
Not to mention they bring the same story to every single thread regardless of the topic. Like a question about how many people from a class are applying.
 
It's ridiculous and their shtick has grown tiresome. They bring nothing to the table and if their real life personalities match their internet personas then I can see why they are unsuccessful and unhappy.
 
cbtk18 said:
I have never heard of anyone doing 2 fellowships (outside of FMG's). Ever. Not saying that it doesn't happen, just that I've never even heard of anyone doing that.

These people in here are trolling so hard in here, need to be stopped.
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I've known one person, but he graduated residency back in the early '00s. Ya know, back before it was 'cool' to do two fellowships. That had nothing to do with the job market and everything to do with the fact that he was insane.

Outside of the alternative pathway, the people doing two fellowships are those who are dead set on living and working in a certain location. In a poor job market, sometimes timing is what's keeping someone from finding the right job. Some people do the calculus and determine that taking another year of low pay to develop connections is worthwhile.
 
hawkward said:
Radiology has had fewer and fewer applicants since 2010.

Any MS4's out there have any insight into how many in your class are interested this year? More or less than last year?

Im in a class of about 180 and we have 10 applicants so far vs. 8 last year.
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