How many people in your class are applying rads this year?

[RadiologyLD50]

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There is a good reason why fewer and fewer people are applying to Radiology residencies -- the bad Radiology job market. It sucks plain and simple. Private practice guys may post on this site but many are partners who have secure positions. As a job seeker, you do not (unless you have a family member who owns a practice).
If you're like me and most of the people I know, you will face a tough market and and even tougher job (should you get one).
This is no joke. I'm not exaggerating or being a "troll." I'm simply reporting my experience. I see posts from Radiologists who are working, they talk about how hard it is now in PP, but no one is talking about all of the unemployed Radiologists out there. There seems to be far more candidates applying for jobs, which means that if you're lucky enough to get one, you'd better be prepared to work your butt off to keep it (providing you can keep up with the high volumes most practices expect, not make too many mistakes and not get sued). Get prepared to read so many cases you feel like your eyeballs are going to fall out, then hope they don't let you go because they found someone else who can do your job for less and/or they don't want to offer you partnership. It's not only Radiologists who are suffering, I've witnessed physicians in other fields undergo major changes in their practices. Being a doctor used to be a respected position, but our profession has been transformed into a commodity and Radiologists are only as good as the number of cases they can crank out a day, and even then there's always someone in India who can do the job for less. American medical students should start demanding a free medical education. It's time for physicians to stick up for themselves and stop being abused.

 

[cbtk18]

Wow

 

[samurai7]

There is a good reason why fewer and fewer people are applying to Radiology residencies -- the bad Radiology job market. It sucks plain and simple. Private practice guys may post on this site but many are partners who have secure positions. As a job seeker, you do not (unless you have a family member who owns a practice).
If you're like me and most of the people I know, you will face a tough market and and even tougher job (should you get one).
This is no joke. I'm not exaggerating or being a "troll." I'm simply reporting my experience. I see posts from Radiologists who are working, they talk about how hard it is now in PP, but no one is talking about all of the unemployed Radiologists out there. There seems to be far more candidates applying for jobs, which means that if you're lucky enough to get one, you'd better be prepared to work your butt off to keep it (providing you can keep up with the high volumes most practices expect, not make too many mistakes and not get sued). Get prepared to read so many cases you feel like your eyeballs are going to fall out, then hope they don't let you go because they found someone else who can do your job for less and/or they don't want to offer you partnership. It's not only Radiologists who are suffering, I've witnessed physicians in other fields undergo major changes in their practices. Being a doctor used to be a respected position, but our profession has been transformed into a commodity and Radiologists are only as good as the number of cases they can crank out a day, and even then there's always someone in India who can do the job for less. American medical students should start demanding a free medical education. It's time for physicians to stick up for themselves and stop being abused.

Haha

You just won the dumbest post award of the year by a long margin. Please do not feed this troll. He probably is another radman on this forum.

 

[PL198]

There is a good reason why fewer and fewer people are applying to Radiology residencies -- the bad Radiology job market. It sucks plain and simple. Private practice guys may post on this site but many are partners who have secure positions. As a job seeker, you do not (unless you have a family member who owns a practice).
If you're like me and most of the people I know, you will face a tough market and and even tougher job (should you get one).
This is no joke. I'm not exaggerating or being a "troll." I'm simply reporting my experience. I see posts from Radiologists who are working, they talk about how hard it is now in PP, but no one is talking about all of the unemployed Radiologists out there. There seems to be far more candidates applying for jobs, which means that if you're lucky enough to get one, you'd better be prepared to work your butt off to keep it (providing you can keep up with the high volumes most practices expect, not make too many mistakes and not get sued). Get prepared to read so many cases you feel like your eyeballs are going to fall out, then hope they don't let you go because they found someone else who can do your job for less and/or they don't want to offer you partnership. It's not only Radiologists who are suffering, I've witnessed physicians in other fields undergo major changes in their practices. Being a doctor used to be a respected position, but our profession has been transformed into a commodity and Radiologists are only as good as the number of cases they can crank out a day, and even then there's always someone in India who can do the job for less. American medical students should start demanding a free medical education. It's time for physicians to stick up for themselves and stop being abused.

lol wut? You realize physicians have to have a license to practice in America? also if you're a rehab sci student, it's hardly "your profession."


I don't get what you guys mean by BFE. Like I understand the meaning but nearly all rural cities are within an hour of a decent sized town or city, so unless you're addicted to city life(which is the biggest POS the world has to offer in my opinion), I feel like you have ample opportunity to access the city if you want to. yeah if you end up in North Dakota then sure I can understand thats BFE and it's a pain, but I feel like you guys are talking about like towns of 20000 or something. That's not even close to BFE to me. Feel like there aren't that many true BFE out there.

 

[colbgw02]

I don't get what you guys mean by BFE. Like I understand the meaning but nearly all rural cities are within an hour of a decent sized town or city, so unless you're addicted to city life(which is the biggest POS the world has to offer in my opinion), I feel like you have ample opportunity to access the city if you want to. yeah if you end up in North Dakota then sure I can understand thats BFE and it's a pain, but I feel like you guys are talking about like towns of 20000 or something. That's not even close to BFE to me. Feel like there aren't that many true BFE out there.

Truly rural radiology is rare nowadays, in my estimation. Nearly by definition, such places don't have the workload to support a practice, and it's difficult to justify the cost of overpaying someone when teleradiology is a viable alternative.

Of course, people overuse terms like "middle of nowhere", "the boonies", or "BFE". The confusion arises because those descriptions have been conflated with anything other than a major city. For some, the entirely of fly-over country is unacceptable. Others are only willing to live in a major metropolitan area (e.g. Dallas, Houston, Chicago, Atlanta), and even many of those willing to go elsewhere still want a city (think largest cities in states with small populations, e.g. Omaha, Birmingham, Albuquerque).

The truth is that the job market isn't great in any of these subsets, but it also makes me skeptical when people anonymously gripe about not being able to find a job because I can't tell what self-imposed limitations are in play. No one has a God-given right to live in Chicago, New York, or San Diego, so if you can't find work there then you had better go to where the work is. So go to BFE if you have to; you might just like it. And yes, relocating is onerous. It's also sometimes necessary (says the guy on the verge of doing it for the 11th time).

 

[PL198]

Yes I completely agree. It seems to me that for the most part , people can match into most specialties they want if they are flexible with location. I'm completely OK with spending 5-6 years in some random place with a POS apartment if it's what it takes to get me to be a radiologist. Seems to me that people run into problems when they get picky which I don't understand at all. Even if I had a family of my own I'd way rather match somewhere BFE than not and almost get shunned in the future..

 

[g8orlife]

To answer OP's question:
2 years ago: 5?
Last year: 5
This year: 3

 

[CorneliaSt]

So I'm currently on my radiology rotation, and as someone interested in radiology as a career I've been trying to get a pulse on the job market by talking to a handful of senior residents about it. Overall, the consensus was that the job market has been improving over the last couple of years. It's still not great, but there have been more job openings than in the recent past according to them and they are optimistic about the future, for what that's worth.

 

[PL198]

So I'm currently on my radiology rotation, and as someone interested in radiology as a career I've been trying to get a pulse on the job market by talking to a handful of senior residents about it. Overall, the consensus was that the job market has been improving over the last couple of years. It's still not great, but there have been more job openings than in the recent past according to them and they are optimistic about the future, for what that's worth.

I look at it like buying low and selling high in the stock market. All the people that are still medical students will have at least 5+ years before they are ever in the attending market, so it seems like pretty much speculation to decide if you want to go into rads or not based on the prospects. In the amount of time there will be so much change and difference from the current market that there's no point worrying about it right now.

 

[shark2000]

Is the job market bad? Yes.

Can you get a job in your desirable location? Yes, but you have to work for it.
Examples: 1. Make connections from the beginning of your resident OR 2. do IR or mammo OR 3. work as a nighthawk of a group for 1-2 years 4. do 2 fellowships

Will you be well paid? Yes. Better than most doctors. Obviously you don't get paid as much as a neurosurgeon who works 80 hours per week and is on call two nights per week. But who wants that kind of life style? At least I don't want even if you pay me a million.

The market is not great but you can make it work well by putting some energy into it. You don't need to do something extra-ordinary and you don't need to be a super star. But also you won't get a job as easy as an internist or some other fields.

 

[PhillyMed777]

Is the job market bad? Yes.

Can you get a job in your desirable location? Yes, but you have to work for it.
Examples: 1. Make connections from the beginning of your resident OR 2. do IR or mammo OR 3. work as a nighthawk of a group for 1-2 years 4. do 2 fellowships

Will you be well paid? Yes. Better than most doctors. Obviously you don't get paid as much as a neurosurgeon who works 80 hours per week and is on call two nights per week. But who wants that kind of life style? At least I don't want even if you pay me a million.

The market is not great but you can make it work well by putting some energy into it. You don't need to do something extra-ordinary and you don't need to be a super star. But also you won't get a job as easy as an internist or some other fields.

Just letting you know I'm sure that there are plenty, like me, who appreciate your down to earth and realistic comments/reflections.

 

[blebb]

Is the job market bad? Yes.

Can you get a job in your desirable location? Yes, but you have to work for it.
Examples: 1. Make connections from the beginning of your resident OR 2. do IR or mammo OR 3. work as a nighthawk of a group for 1-2 years 4. do 2 fellowships

Will you be well paid? Yes. Better than most doctors. Obviously you don't get paid as much as a neurosurgeon who works 80 hours per week and is on call two nights per week. But who wants that kind of life style? At least I don't want even if you pay me a million.

The market is not great but you can make it work well by putting some energy into it. You don't need to do something extra-ordinary and you don't need to be a super star. But also you won't get a job as easy as an internist or some other fields.

We need to sticky this post and close all job market threads.

... and ban radman

 

[Surf123]

Interesting discussion. Not sure why the hate towards Radman? Much of what he says is true about current conditions in radiology. Check out auntminnie. Same topics with multiple posters saying pretty much the same thing.

 

[shark2000]

Interesting discussion. Not sure why the hate towards Radman? Much of what he says is true about current conditions in radiology. Check out auntminnie. Same topics with multiple posters saying pretty much the same thing.

You don't know whether they are multiple posters or the same poster with multiple usernames. And you never know whether Radman posts on auntiminnie or not.

I don't say things are good. Talk to the fellows and residents in your program and see what they say.

Don't base your decision on an anonymous online forum.

 

[cbtk18]

Interesting discussion. Not sure why the hate towards Radman? Much of what he says is true about current conditions in radiology. Check out auntminnie. Same topics with multiple posters saying pretty much the same thing.

Says the guy with one post who joined today.

You're radman, aren't you.

These trolls are pathetic!

 

[DermViser]

Truly rural radiology is rare nowadays, in my estimation. Nearly by definition, such places don't have the workload to support a practice, and it's difficult to justify the cost of overpaying someone when teleradiology is a viable alternative.

Of course, people overuse terms like "middle of nowhere", "the boonies", or "BFE". The confusion arises because those descriptions have been conflated with anything other than a major city. For some, the entirely of fly-over country is unacceptable. Others are only willing to live in a major metropolitan area (e.g. Dallas, Houston, Chicago, Atlanta), and even many of those willing to go elsewhere still want a city (think largest cities in states with small populations, e.g. Omaha, Birmingham, Albuquerque).

The truth is that the job market isn't great in any of these subsets, but it also makes me skeptical when people anonymously gripe about not being able to find a job because I can't tell what self-imposed limitations are in play. No one has a God-given right to live in Chicago, New York, or San Diego, so if you can't find work there then you had better go to where the work is. So go to BFE if you have to; you might just like it. And yes, relocating is onerous. It's also sometimes necessary (says the guy on the verge of doing it for the 11th time).

Isn't that a bad sign?

 

[colbgw02]

Isn't that a bad sign?

Of course. No one is asserting that the radiology job market is good - only that it's not as bad as many claim and that people should be wary of anonymous claims about having to take a job in the "middle of nowhere". That term should mean rural South Dakota, but population shifts being what they are, middle of nowhere is now used too often to mean anything other than a major coastal city.

 

[TrueAntagonist]

Of course. No one is asserting that the radiology job market is good - only that it's not as bad as many claim and that people should be wary of anonymous claims about having to take a job in the "middle of nowhere". That term should mean rural South Dakota, but population shifts being what they are, middle of nowhere is now used too often to mean anything other than a major coastal city.

Growing up and living in one of those 'middle of nowhere' mid-sized cities in a fly-over state, it's really, really not that bad. If anything, I find my city preferable to any major east coast metropolitan. It has everything a big city has but way more convenient and safer.

And the rads job market in my city is also not as bad as people make it seem on here.

 

[MU420]

That's the problem with anonymous online forums. Auntminnie has some blatant trolls who will make ridiculous posts like "I have two fellowships and I have two IR job offers so far after 10 months of search. One at 180k with partnership option in 5 years and one at 220k and no mention of future partnership. Which should I take???"

Could be a single person with multiple accounts, who knows? People making these posts could be anyone from a random troll, to a disgruntled attending, to medical students gunning for rad and trying to eliminate competition, which would be absolutely pathetic.

 

[eablackwell]

I know this thread is a few days old, but thought I'd throw my school's stats in (going back to the original point of the post):

Out of a class of 80 we have 7 going into rads. Granted, we are a weird class, we also have 10 going into psych. 😉

 

[Etorphine]

Is the job market bad? Yes.

Can you get a job in your desirable location? Yes, but you have to work for it.
Examples: 1. Make connections from the beginning of your resident OR 2. do IR or mammo OR 3. work as a nighthawk of a group for 1-2 years 4. do 2 fellowships

Shark2000, have appreciated your level-headed approach. Have a question for you. Within the bubble that is IR, do you think that the market is even better than most other specialties in medicine in terms of job market availability? My intuition is yes, since IR is such a new field and there are fewer established attendings out there (compared to other fields like ophtho, ortho, that are traditionally considered competitive but have high levels of saturation). What is your take?

 

[DermViser]

I know this thread is a few days old, but thought I'd throw my school's stats in (going back to the original point of the post):

Out of a class of 80 we have 7 going into rads. Granted, we are a weird class, we also have 10 going into psych. 😉

Not really weird due to emphasis on lifestyle.

 

[qwerty89]

Semi necrobump: ACR jobs board currently has 303 jobs which is more than I have ever seen in the past couple years.

I seem to remember a time when it was in the low 100s, but never below that. This would have been 2-3 years ago.

 

[MadRadLad]

Shark2000, have appreciated your level-headed approach. Have a question for you. Within the bubble that is IR, do you think that the market is even better than most other specialties in medicine in terms of job market availability? My intuition is yes, since IR is such a new field and there are fewer established attendings out there (compared to other fields like ophtho, ortho, that are traditionally considered competitive but have high levels of saturation). What is your take?

Would like to bump this too to see if there's an answer. O almightly @shark2000, I summon thee.

 

[shark2000]

Would like to bump this too to see if there's an answer. O almightly @shark2000, I summon thee.

Many surgical subspecialties don't have a good job market. You can find a job, but the starting salary is pretty low, lower than many other specialties. Then YOU HAVE TO BUILD A practice. This is at least what the group tells you. Whether you can build a practice or not is dependent on many factors. In almost every saturated market, there are a few surgeons that are super-busy and make a bank. For a new graduates, it takes almost a decade to MAY BE build a busy successful practice. In remote areas and less desirable areas building a practice is not that difficult. There are always some exceptions of right person at right place at the right time (for example first generation of GI doctors who learned to do ERCP or first people who learned LASIK or NeuroIR or stunting or ...).

The above statement is mostly true for elective surgeries. For example most patients choose their spine surgeon (other than trauma) or choose their ophthalmologist or ESP their plastic surgeon. On the other hand, many patients don't choose their doctor esp for emergent or inpatient procedures. For example, patients don't choose their spine surgeon for trauma or for fixing hip fracture or they don't choose their neurosurgeon to drain epidural. The same for many aspects of Radiology, ICU, Cardiology, IR and some other fields.

Going back to your original question. IR has better job market than some surgical subspecialties (ophtho, CT surgery, ...) and has worse market than some other (trauma surgery and spine surgery comes to my mind). By job market I mean just finding a job and not having an established practice. However, in my experience, building an IR practice is somehow easier than many of these fields. IR is more diverse than for example breast surgery and you can build your practice on different areas. Also, many IR physicians switch back to DR after 10-15 years of doing IR or at least decrease their IR workload since they can still do DR which open ups the market for younger people.

 

[anbuitachi]

To answer OP's question.. even though its a old thread... out of a class of 200-205, in 2013, 13 people matched, 2014, 7 people matched, 2015 3 people applied with all 3 planning to go into IR. So pretty much it's been decreasing at 50% each year over the past 3 years.

Also I read all the posts in this thread, not sure why there is so much arguing. A survey was released on AAMC stating that radiology starting salary is 200k.
[https://www.aamc.org/services/first/first_factsheets/399572/compensation.html]. In comparison, Medicine is 180k. PMR is 200k, and Radiology has a longer residency than both of those. So I dont understand why people are calling people trolls for saying the job market is bad.. the drop in starting salary pretty much shows that. The HUGE drop in applicants shows that too. I highly doubt radman's experience is in the bottom 0.5% of the radiologists'. Funny thing is I was just on my medicine rotation, and there is an intern here who was previously a radiologist working in a PP, who hated the recent changes so much that he decided to go back to medicine residency and start all over again.

 

[PL198]

I've never once heard of a radiology starting job paying 200k

 

[blebb]

To answer OP's question.. even though its a old thread... out of a class of 200-205, in 2013, 13 people matched, 2014, 7 people matched, 2015 3 people applied with all 3 planning to go into IR. So pretty much it's been decreasing at 50% each year over the past 3 years.

Also I read all the posts in this thread, not sure why there is so much arguing. A survey was released on AAMC stating that radiology starting salary is 200k.
[https://www.aamc.org/services/first/first_factsheets/399572/compensation.html]. In comparison, Medicine is 180k. PMR is 200k, and Radiology has a longer residency than both of those. So I dont understand why people are calling people trolls for saying the job market is bad.. the drop in starting salary pretty much shows that. The HUGE drop in applicants shows that too. I highly doubt radman's experience is in the bottom 0.5% of the radiologists'. Funny thing is I was just on my medicine rotation, and there is an intern here who was previously a radiologist working in a PP, who hated the recent changes so much that he decided to go back to medicine residency and start all over again.

The numbers from that survey are wildly off. Granted the job market is bad, but pretty much everyone in pp starts off 300+

 

[anbuitachi]

The numbers from that survey are wildly off. Granted the job market is bad, but pretty much everyone in pp starts off 300+

that sounds more like a personal experience. perhaps the people you know started off 300k+. some guy posted above said the fellows he know got low/mid 200s, so clearly people are saying different things. The survey seems accurate for other professions (IM 180k, PMR 200k, Anesthesia 270k , etc all sounds very reasonable). Not saying that the survey is 100% correct but it seems more trustable than opinions on forums esp since people are saying very different starting numbers. Besides, i imagine the survey has a bigger sample size than the experiences of ppl here..

 

[shark2000]

To answer OP's question.. even though its a old thread... out of a class of 200-205, in 2013, 13 people matched, 2014, 7 people matched, 2015 3 people applied with all 3 planning to go into IR. So pretty much it's been decreasing at 50% each year over the past 3 years.

Also I read all the posts in this thread, not sure why there is so much arguing. A survey was released on AAMC stating that radiology starting salary is 200k.
[https://www.aamc.org/services/first/first_factsheets/399572/compensation.html]. In comparison, Medicine is 180k. PMR is 200k, and Radiology has a longer residency than both of those. So I dont understand why people are calling people trolls for saying the job market is bad.. the drop in starting salary pretty much shows that. The HUGE drop in applicants shows that too. I highly doubt radman's experience is in the bottom 0.5% of the radiologists'. Funny thing is I was just on my medicine rotation, and there is an intern here who was previously a radiologist working in a PP, who hated the recent changes so much that he decided to go back to medicine residency and start all over again.

Ophthalmology has a starting salary of 180K, if that matters to you. With your logic, its competitiveness should be less than most of other fields and should also be less than IM.

The number of applicants are down but you can not extrapolate your medical school applicants. By your logic, the number of applicants in 2015 should be only 25% of the number of applicants in 2013. There were about 1000+ applicants in 2013, so this year should be about 250. Great math.

A radiologist working in private practice makes more than hospitalists and definitely more than IM residents. Though I don't believe your story, there are always some ..... people in any field. You can always find somebody who switches and somebody who does a second residency.

Not for you, but for all medical students: I live in a very competitive area and the starting salaries here are much higher than the number mentioned above. I barely talk about salaries on public forum, but google some salary surveys and consider that there are always some wrong surveys our there.

Disclaimer: The only reason that I responded to above post is medical students, residents and applicants. Unfortunately, on many public forums there are people who try to spread false information for DIFFERENT REASONS. The poster is definitely not a radiologist or radiology resident. Why should a general surgeon or an IM doctor or a medical student or a spine surgeon or ... come to a radiology forum and talk about salaries?
Just ask yourself a question. Why should I (as a pp radiologist) should go to pediatrics forum and try to prove to them that their salaries are low? Or why should I go to surgery forum and try to prove to them that their life style sucks?

 

[meister]

The survey is wrong, but I don't mind if it means there's any chance at all CMS finally leaves us alone.

 

[anbuitachi]

Ophthalmology has a starting salary of 180K, if that matters to you. With your logic, its competitiveness should be less than most of other fields and should also be less than IM.

The number of applicants are down but you can not extrapolate your medical school applicants. By your logic, the number of applicants in 2015 should be only 25% of the number of applicants in 2013. There were about 1000+ applicants in 2013, so this year should be about 250. Great math.

A radiologist working in private practice makes more than hospitalists and definitely more than IM residents. Though I don't believe your story, there are always some ..... people in any field. You can always find somebody who switches and somebody who does a second residency.

Not for you, but for all medical students: I live in a very competitive area and the starting salaries here are much higher than the number mentioned above. I barely talk about salaries on public forum, but google some salary surveys and consider that there are always some wrong surveys our there.

Disclaimer: The only reason that I responded to above post is medical students, residents and applicants. Unfortunately, on many public forums there are people who try to spread false information for DIFFERENT REASONS. The poster is definitely not a radiologist or radiology resident. Why should a general surgeon or an IM doctor or a medical student or a spine surgeon or ... come to a radiology forum and talk about salaries?
Just ask yourself a question. Why should I (as a pp radiologist) should go to pediatrics forum and try to prove to them that their salaries are low? Or why should I go to surgery forum and try to prove to them that their life style sucks?

Not sure if you are trolling but most of those things you mentioned isn't really related to what I mentioned. Everyone knows optho has very low starting salary compared to what they can make mid/late career. Saying they make 180k starting has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

Also, I wasn't extrapolating based on my medical school. I mentioned my medical school because that's OP's original question. Just because I am answering OPs question, doesn't mean its the basis of my argument. By huge drop off, i was referring to the official #s, (i dont remember the exact # but it did decrease a lot, and 81 spots didn't even fill last year).

Your opinions seem very biased based off your personal experience. I dont even know if you read my previous post carefully before targeting what I wrote, but if you did, your opinions are clearly biased enough to have spun my words into what you wrote in your post.

Either way, there is a big drop off in AMGs applying to radiology, and there is a reason for that. I don't want to argue about what's what. I was just saying lets not just call someone a troll just because his opinion of the field/job market isn't as optimistic as yours.

 

[shark2000]

Not sure if you are trolling but most of those things you mentioned isn't really related to what I mentioned. Everyone knows optho has very low starting salary compared to what they can make mid/late career. Saying they make 180k starting has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

Also, I wasn't extrapolating based on my medical school. I mentioned my medical school because that's OP's original question. Just because I am answering OPs question, doesn't mean its the basis of my argument. By huge drop off, i was referring to the official #s, (i dont remember the exact # but it did decrease a lot, and 81 spots didn't even fill last year).

Your opinions seem very biased based off your personal experience. I dont even know if you read my previous post carefully before targeting what I wrote, but if you did, your opinions are clearly biased enough to have spun my words into what you wrote in your post.

Either way, there is a big drop off in AMGs applying to radiology, and there is a reason for that. I don't want to argue about what's what. I was just saying lets not just call someone a troll just because his opinion of the field/job market isn't as optimistic as yours.

As a radiologist in private practice I stated my opinion about my field and you as a non-radiologist also expressed your opinions. My post is based on MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE and the EXPERIENCE of my friends from at least 10 other radiology groups and two academic centers.

Since you are interested in looking at surveys, I recommend you to take a look at medescape and AMGA surveys. After all, as you mentioned, people should not listen to some anonymous poster about 100K or 200K or 800K salary. Medescape salary survey needs username and password (free). This is AMGA survey:

http://www.beckershospitalreview.co...s-on-physician-compensation-january-2014.html

Consider that AMGA survey is compensation and not salary. Depending on your specialty, the salary is lower than the compensation since the latter includes malpractice, insurance and other expenses.

Are there radiologists that make 100K? Definitely. The same for neurosurgeons, OB, ED, IM and ... The survey shows the median salaries. There is a huge variability depending on the location and type of practice. There is also a lot of overlap. This is just a general idea.


Anyway, I posted this to make sure than medical students don't get false impression from your biased post. I also mentioned two salary surveys and there are more including MGMA (I have access to it through my group but it is not free for public) which is inflated across the board. My post is addressed to medical students and residents. Otherwise, I don't try to change your opinion. You are entitled to your opinion. If you FEEL BETTER and LESS STRESSED by sticking to your idea, then please do yourself a favor and don't look at other surveys.

 

[anbuitachi]

As a radiologist in private practice I stated my opinion about my field and you as a non-radiologist also expressed your opinions. My post is based on MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE and the EXPERIENCE of my friends from at least 10 other radiology groups and two academic centers.

Since you are interested in looking at surveys, I recommend you to take a look at medescape and AMGA surveys. After all, as you mentioned, people should not listen to some anonymous poster about 100K or 200K or 800K salary. Medescape salary survey needs username and password (free). This is AMGA survey:

http://www.beckershospitalreview.co...s-on-physician-compensation-january-2014.html

Consider that AMGA survey is compensation and not salary. Depending on your specialty, the salary is lower than the compensation since the latter includes malpractice, insurance and other expenses.

Are there radiologists that make 100K? Definitely. The same for neurosurgeons, OB, ED, IM and ... The survey shows the median salaries. There is a huge variability depending on the location and type of practice. There is also a lot of overlap. This is just a general idea.


Anyway, I posted this to make sure than medical students don't get false impression from your biased post. I also mentioned two salary surveys and there are more including MGMA (I have access to it through my group but it is not free for public) which is inflated across the board. My post is addressed to medical students and residents. Otherwise, I don't try to change your opinion. You are entitled to your opinion. If you FEEL BETTER and LESS STRESSED by sticking to your idea, then please do yourself a favor and don't look at other surveys.

The aamc survey posted is mgma. It appears based on survey and what I've been hearing, starting salary dropped but median salary is not that different from before

 

[maxxor]

Anbuitachi probably wants a field to feel better about since he's applying anesthesia 😛

On a more serious note, how realistic is this MGMA starting compensation report? Is it like the Medscape reports that have a 5% response rate at best? I always thought most people who respond to MGMA surveys are mid career or later, so their slice of the new people on the market is less representative.

Most numbers on that list seemed too low to me. IM at 180? I know hospitalists are getting offered 250k at my hospital as starting, and I'm 30 miles from a tier one US city. And this hospital has a shortage of hospitalists, suggesting that people are taking better offers. (And we are the safety net hospital for our area, not the for-profit fancy one across town!)

 

[preDoGuy24]

that sounds more like a personal experience. perhaps the people you know started off 300k+. some guy posted above said the fellows he know got low/mid 200s, so clearly people are saying different things. The survey seems accurate for other professions (IM 180k, PMR 200k, Anesthesia 270k , etc all sounds very reasonable). Not saying that the survey is 100% correct but it seems more trustable than opinions on forums esp since people are saying very different starting numbers. Besides, i imagine the survey has a bigger sample size than the experiences of ppl here..

Your survey is incorrect...no one believes you have a radiology attending starting his intern medicine year (why would he start as an intern if he had probably already completed an intern year somewhere, no advanced standing?) The experience of ppl here is that of attendings and residents actually out in the job market, not a random survey. You are coming to the game to late to troll applicants, lists are already submitted.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[anbuitachi]

Anbuitachi probably wants a field to feel better about since he's applying anesthesia 😛

On a more serious note, how realistic is this MGMA starting compensation report? Is it like the Medscape reports that have a 5% response rate at best? I always thought most people who respond to MGMA surveys are mid career or later, so their slice of the new people on the market is less representative.

Most numbers on that list seemed too low to me. IM at 180? I know hospitalists are getting offered 250k at my hospital as starting, and I'm 30 miles from a tier one US city. And this hospital has a shortage of hospitalists, suggesting that people are taking better offers. (And we are the safety net hospital for our area, not the for-profit fancy one across town!)

LOL =) that must be it haha.
but anyway there definitely are plenty of jobs starting at 200k+ for internal medicine. but there are also many doctors in large cities starting at much lower salaries. My attending whos been practicing for 5+ years is getting paid 170k working 6 days a week. I think to me 180k is pretty accurate for IM starting and seems comparable to most other surveys out there. According to MGMA 2012 (dont have the later ones), median salary for medicine doc is 215k, and I usually dont take MGMA median salaries as underestimates..

Your survey is incorrect...no one believes you have a radiology attending starting his intern medicine year (why would he start as an intern if he had probably already completed an intern year somewhere, no advanced standing?) The experience of ppl here is that of attendings and residents actually out in the job market, not a random survey. You are coming to the game to late to troll applicants, lists are already submitted.

i actually asked the same question about why starting over from intern year to my residents who know him. they said it's probably b/c he did prelim 10 years ago and its been a while. it's also possible that our institution doesn't take pgy2s? im not sure

and it's MGMA's survey.. not mine

 

[preDoGuy24]

LOL =) that must be it haha.
but anyway there definitely are plenty of jobs starting at 200k+ for internal medicine. but there are also many doctors in large cities starting at much lower salaries. My attending whos been practicing for 5+ years is getting paid 170k working 6 days a week. I think to me 180k is pretty accurate for IM starting and seems comparable to most other surveys out there. According to MGMA 2012 (dont have the later ones), median salary for medicine doc is 215k, and I usually dont take MGMA median salaries as underestimates..




i actually asked the same question about why starting over from intern year to my residents who know him. they said it's probably b/c he did prelim 10 years ago and its been a while. it's also possible that our institution doesn't take pgy2s? im not sure

and it's MGMA's survey.. not mine

It's not MGMA unless you are trying to say the median compensation has been cut in almost half in the last 5 years (last mgma I have a pdf of is from about that long ago). It's the AAMC survey which I have seen before and still think it is incorrect for all the specialties you stated/it states.

 

[anbuitachi]

It's not MGMA unless you are trying to say the median compensation has been cut in almost half in the last 5 years (last mgma I have a pdf of is from about that long ago). It's the AAMC survey which I have seen before and still think it is incorrect for all the specialties you stated/it states.

Which mgma survey do you have that says medicine makes 350k+?

 

[preDoGuy24]

Which mgma survey do you have that says medicine makes 350k+?

Never said medicine makes 350k, though plenty of docs I know make much more then that. Simply stating the mgma does not put starting rad income at 200 like you have previously stated here in the RADIOLOGY forum. I think it's foolish to keep throwing around salary numbers on a public forum unless you want to be in another NYT piece on greedy doctors.

 

[shark2000]

Just as a side note. The days of having a "special skill" and making a bank is almost gone. Whether this skill is reading MRI or doing pancreatic surgery. There are similar number or more physicians who make a bank these days but not because of their "special medical skill". These days physicians who make a bank are those who are "doing business". A family physician who owns a clinic and have 8 other physicians working for him can easily make 2-3 times of what a radiologist or surgeon or ... make. Long story short, unlike 70s and 80s, these days business side of medicine has taken over the entire field. As a physician still you can make a good money, but making a bank needs lots of business skills. You can not just open an office or an imaging center or outpatient surgery center and see the inflow of cash. It needs lots of business talent.

 

[anbuitachi]

Never said medicine makes 350k, though plenty of docs I know make much more then that. Simply stating the mgma does not put starting rad income at 200 like you have previously stated here in the RADIOLOGY forum. I think it's foolish to keep throwing around salary numbers on a public forum unless you want to be in another NYT piece on greedy doctors.

Lol ... I don't think you know what we are talking about. Or you dont know how to use Google and check the mgma data.

 

[preDoGuy24]

Lol ... I don't think you know what we are talking about. Or you dont know how to use Google and check the mgma data.

I am not the medical student telling attendings what salaries are in their specialties. You are the only one who seems not to understand what he is talking about, even when attendings on this forum explain in detail why you are incorrect. Feel free to link to the MGMA data, what I have found does not support your statements.

 

[anbuitachi]

I am not the medical student telling attendings what salaries are in their specialties. You are the only one who seems not to understand what he is talking about, even when attendings on this forum explain in detail why you are incorrect. Feel free to link to the MGMA data, what I have found does not support your statements.

I already linked it but I guess you probably read the first sentence of my posts and assume I'm ******ed but here it is again.
https://www.aamc.org/services/first/first_factsheets/399572/compensation.html


Title of article clearly says " Starting Salaries for Physicians

MGMA Physician Placement Starting Salary Survey"

I'm guessing the next thing you say is aamc and MGMa are both ******ed because an attending posted above saying his salary and some of his friends are higher or w.e is offered in his town.

 

[preDoGuy24]

I already linked it but I guess you probably read the first sentence of my posts and assume I'm ******ed but here it is again.
https://www.aamc.org/services/first/first_factsheets/399572/compensation.html


Title of article clearly says " Starting Salaries for Physicians

MGMA Physician Placement Starting Salary Survey"

I'm guessing the next thing you say is aamc and MGMa are both ******ed because an attending posted above saying his salary and some of his friends are higher or w.e is offered in his town.

No. Just have never seen/heard a non academic starting salary that low. Literally two standard deviations below the mean of the actual mgma survey I have, which does not group all radiology together, its by subspecialty. Hopefully it's a sample size issue, even the big hitters like Ortho are quite a bit below what I have seen/heard of people getting offers from straight out of fellowship at non BFE places.

 

[anbuitachi]

No. Just have never seen/heard a non academic starting salary that low. Literally two standard deviations below the mean of the actual mgma survey I have, which does not group all radiology together, its by subspecialty. Hopefully it's a sample size issue, even the big hitters like Ortho are quite a bit below what I have seen/heard of people getting offers from straight out of fellowship at non BFE places.

Cause this is starting salary. And it's not just private practice. So the partner salaries aren't factored in

 

[preDoGuy24]

Cause this is starting salary. And it's not just private practice. So the partner salaries aren't factored in

I understand that. I have only ever spoken to residents and fellows which I would presume were telling me there starting salaries, without partner salary factored in.

 

[vm26]

LOL =) that must be it haha.
but anyway there definitely are plenty of jobs starting at 200k+ for internal medicine. but there are also many doctors in large cities starting at much lower salaries. My attending whos been practicing for 5+ years is getting paid 170k working 6 days a week. I think to me 180k is pretty accurate for IM starting and seems comparable to most other surveys out there. According to MGMA 2012 (dont have the later ones), median salary for medicine doc is 215k, and I usually dont take MGMA median salaries as underestimates...
/QUOTE]

Kaiser in northern Cali is starting new IM grads at 220K which is not that much lower for starting rads salary with much shorter training..also check out the medpac thread on AM, apparently we as radiologists are still making too much so expect continuous CMS cuts, good times ahead...

 

[FranzLO]

I will say this, I know of current 1 year fellows getting some good jobs, and while I cannot predict how the market I will end up in several years from now when I am searching, there are still some good options out there in todays market. I wish we had more ways to assess the job market.

 

[cbtk18]

Former resident just got hired out of fellowship back at our program for double those numbers, as an employee (two years to partner).