How many programs to apply to as a safe minimum?

[Raskolnikov]

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Hello everybody. I've been lurking here a long time and this is my first post. I'm a 4th year applying for path this year. Just wondering what people consider a necessary number of programs to apply to in order to stand a reasonable chance of matching. For geographic reasons, I've only chosen 9. I'm not a top student so I'm a little worried. Am I making a mistake? On a related note, how many interviews is considered reassuring?
Thanks for any feedback everyone.

 

[yaah]

10

Eh, it varies. I dunno. I applied to like 18, but didn't go on all the interviews. Ended up ranking 12. It sort of depends on the programs. If all 10 are high powered well known programs it's tougher. If you have some good solid but not as famous academic places, it will probably be ok. It's reassuring if you get interviews. The best candidates will get them at all or almost all of the places they apply. But just because you don't doesn't mean you are not a good candidate. It's kind of a crapshoot, every PD has different goals in mind.

You can always add more programs. I added one a month after my initial application was sent in.

 

[stormjen]

These days, I think only better applicants can get away with applying to nine programs. If you are a sub-par applicant, I'd apply to many more than that. Others may disagree, but if you're worried about not matching, apply to 25+ programs. I know someone who applied to 30 programs (all Path), and got only 12 interviews.

Remember, SCRAMBLING SUCKS! Better to overapply than have to scramble, in my opinion.

 

[cytoborg]

Apply generously, maybe 15-20. You can always decline interviews once you're invited, but you can't add programs come December when you realize you don't have enough interviews. As for # of interviews to go on, I went on 12, and that seems to be a pretty common number. However, that felt like a LOT. I was exhausted, broke, and by the last interview I pretty much didn't care anymore. If I had to do it over, I would limit myself to 8-9 interviews. The conventional wisdom is that you need to rank at least 7 programs, statistically speaking, to increase your chances of matching.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Hello everybody. I've been lurking here a long time and this is my first post. I'm a 4th year applying for path this year. Just wondering what people consider a necessary number of programs to apply to in order to stand a reasonable chance of matching. For geographic reasons, I've only chosen 9. I'm not a top student so I'm a little worried. Am I making a mistake? On a related note, how many interviews is considered reassuring?
Thanks for any feedback everyone.

Well anyone who applies to fewer programs due to geographic limitations runs a risk. It is better to overapply rather than underapply. But if your 9 programs consist of a good mix of competitive to non-competitive programs, I think you'll be OK.

You don't have to be a top student to match into pathology SOMEWHERE. Path seems to be getting more competitive, but it's still not that competitive. It used to be a "buyer's market" for almost all applicants back in the day where path programs were familiar with the concept of not filling (hence, an easy ticket for even the total slackers and marijuana smokers to match at top programs). But nowadays, it seems that pathology is a "buyer's market" more or less for the top-tier candidates, folks from top medical schools, or dual-degree candidates. More people are applying to pathology these days but I don't think the interest in pathology is increasing in a parallel fashion. I don't buy for one second the whole deal about those stupid forensics TV shows making pathology more glamorous for medical student. It's not. Anyways, I think the number of people people who are simply settling for pathology is on the rise.

Rank 7 programs at least, if you can. Don't feel obligated to rank places that you think suck for you. If you get 7 interviews, then you can pretty much assume that you will be on all their rank lists and hence you can rank 7 programs (unless you totally f*ck up the interview in which case, they may not rank you).

As for your last question, "Am I making a mistake?"...well I think you would be making a serious error if you forced yourself to apply to more programs outside your geographical preference (because of what a few folks on an online forum said) and ended up somewhere you didn't want to be!

 

[Pingu]

Rank 7 programs at least, if you can. Don't feel obligated to rank places that you think suck for you. If you get 7 interviews, then you can pretty much assume that you will be on all their rank lists and hence you can rank 7 programs (unless you totally f*ck up the interview in which case, they may not rank you).

I interviewed at 6 and ranked 5. I was offered many more interviews but wound up not going on a bunch. By my last interview I was unbelievably surly and not willing to put up with the program's bs (you need to tell us if you're going to rank us number 1 and you better not lie or we'll destroy your life) so I could pretty much guarantee that the program sure wasn't ranking me. That and the fact that the resident that took me to lunch couldn't remember my name.

All in all, I am more than happy at where I wound up. It wasn't my top ranked program, but after three months at the program, I truly believe that the match really works and people wind up where they are supposed to. My program just feels right to me. 🙂 So don't sweat it, you'll wind up where the great gods of pathology want you to be.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

By my last interview I was unbelievably surly and not willing to put up with the program's bs (you need to tell us if you're going to rank us number 1 and you better not lie or we'll destroy your life) so I could pretty much guarantee that the program sure wasn't ranking me.

Yes, I didn't like programs that did this either. I can imagine that this tactic doesn't work very well but I'm curious as to how far down their rank lists these programs really go to fill their program.

 

[ChipLeader]

WTF?! Programs actually ask this point blank? Does this happen at the interview, or do they contact you afterwards? Either way that's rediculous...

 

[b&ierstiefel]

WTF?! Programs actually ask this point blank? Does this happen at the interview, or do they contact you afterwards? Either way that's rediculous...

Some programs are flat out shameless about this. Other programs tend to be a little more sly. For instance, one program in particular offered me an all expenses paid second interview visit (which is some sick test to see if you're still interested)...I'm like, "No more visits for me. You saw me once...now rank me to match you bitches!"

 

[fedor]

I'm going to wear a wire during interviews and later release a blooper CD of all the dumb and incriminating **** PD's say.

 

[fedor]

Some programs are flat out shameless about this. Other programs tend to be a little more sly. For instance, one program in particular offered me an all expenses paid second interview visit (which is some sick test to see if you're still interested)...I'm like, "No more visits for me. You saw me once...now rank me to match you bitches!"

Did you wind up matching at your #1, Andy?

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Did you wind up matching at your #1, Andy?

Word. But none of these programs which put pressure on me were my #1 (granted my #1 choice never changed from before September to March). In fact, my top 5 programs put absolutely no pressure on me and were very cool. I was only ranked to match at one of them so I felt a little uneasy going into match day.

 

[fedor]

Word. But none of these programs which put pressure on me were my #1 (granted my #1 choice never changed from before September to March). In fact, my top 5 programs put absolutely no pressure on me and were very cool. I was only ranked to match at one of them so I felt a little uneasy going into match day.

How did you know you were only ranked to match at one of them? Did they say "We have 5 slots but we're ranking you #7. Hopefully someone will go elsewhere."?

 

[b&ierstiefel]

How did you know you were only ranked to match at one of them? Did they say "We have 5 slots but we're ranking you #7. Hopefully someone will go elsewhere."?

Well, here's the way I see it. You are ranked to match (YARTM) only if a program tells you so. One program contacted me by phone while I was out eating and drinking and then followed the conversation up with a letter from the department chair (which basically said, we have 8 spots, you are one of those 8, and if you ranked us 1st, you will end up here...the ball is in your court.) The other programs expressed high interest in me but never said the magic "YARTM". One program in my top 5 was honest with me that I was NOT ranked to match. And I knew this because based on what yaah told me, if you are ranked to match at this program, they call you without any provocation. See at this program, I expressed a high level of interest...then the PD told me to call him on his cell phone which is when he broke it down for me..."we go down pretty far down our rank list so if you ranked us #1 you would probably end up here." Yeah, sorry bud...ain't gonna happen.

 

[fedor]

Well, here's the way I see it. You are ranked to match (YARTM) only if a program tells you so. One program contacted me by phone while I was out eating and drinking and then followed the conversation up with a letter from the department chair (which basically said, we have 8 spots, you are one of those 8, and if you ranked us 1st, you will end up here...the ball is in your court.) The other programs expressed high interest in me but never said the magic "YARTM". One program in my top 5 was honest with me that I was NOT ranked to match. And I knew this because based on what yaah told me, if you are ranked to match at this program, they call you without any provocation. See at this program, I expressed a high level of interest...then the PD told me to call him on his cell phone which is when he broke it down for me..."we go down pretty far down our rank list so if you ranked us #1 you would probably end up here." Yeah, sorry bud...ain't gonna happen.

It's such a charade, really.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

It's such a charade, really.

I've said this many times. The Match is stupid because it is so prone to manipulation and shenanigans.

 

[fedor]

What type of Step1 numbers do these top programs expect anyways?

 

[ChipLeader]

I'm going to wear a wire during interviews and later release a blooper CD of all the dumb and incriminating **** PD's say.

Dude that would be awesome. I'd love to download a Podcast of PDs pressuring scaring the crap out of applicants...

 

[b&ierstiefel]

What type of Step1 numbers do these top programs expect anyways?

Who knows. Even at top programs, you will probably see a variation of scores. I dunno about my program since I don't go around asking what people scored on their boards.

 

[fedor]

Dude that would be awesome. I'd love to download a Podcast of PDs pressuring scaring the crap out of applicants...

Don't worry, I'll interview with 50+, tell them all they're #1 on my list, and smoke a cigar in my underwear while drinking beer and grinning come match day.

 

[fedor]

Who knows. Even at top programs, you will probably see a variation of scores. I dunno about my program since I don't go around asking what people scored on their boards.

I'll show you mine if you show me yours.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

I'll show you mine if you show me yours.

Ha. Funny. I've already posted my usmle scores here on this forum. Go find it. Fetch, bitch!

 

[ChipLeader]

It's such a charade, really.

I agree with this sentiment. It should be based on merit but instead all sorts of politiking enters in to it from all sides. When I did my path away rotation there was another student rotating at the same time that basically made it a mission to shamelessly kiss the PD's ass. It even appeared to work, as the PD seemed to take a liking to her...kind of pissed me off, but that's life I guess. That sort of blatant ass-kissing is just not my style and I my more laid-back attitude probably didnt do me any good during the rotation...Things are not always fair, ya just gotta roll with it...

 

[fedor]

Fetch, bitch!

You must have a quite few beers in you to be so uncharacteristically brave.

Out with your scores now, or else at the next SDN meetup, beatdowns will be flowing as smoothly as the beer.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

fine. i got a 700/99. next question.

 

[fedor]

When I did my path away rotation there was another student rotating at the same time that basically made it a mission to shamelessly kiss the PD's ass. It even appeared to work, as the PD seemed to take a liking to her...kind of pissed me off, but that's life I guess. That sort of blatant ass-kissing is just not my style and I my more laid-back attitude probably didnt do me any good during the rotation...Things are not always fair, ya just gotta roll with it...

I find the entertainment value of these type of students to more than offset their preferential treatment. Much like in elementary school we had those kids who would almost fall out of their seats raising their hands moaning "Oooh Ooooh Oooooh" beckoning for attention. These med school gunners are just the Oooh Oooh crowd slightly older. No worries. My self-respect can't be traded quite so cheaply.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

I agree with this sentiment. It should be based on merit but instead all sorts of politiking enters in to it from all sides. When I did my path away rotation there was another student rotating at the same time that basically made it a mission to shamelessly kiss the PD's ass. It even appeared to work, as the PD seemed to take a liking to her...kind of pissed me off, but that's life I guess. That sort of blatant ass-kissing is just not my style and I my more laid-back attitude probably didnt do me any good during the rotation...Things are not always fair, ya just gotta roll with it...

I too think it should be based on merit. Sometimes I think programs will be biased to rank people somewhat based on the probability that they will end up there. People shouldn't be obligated to kiss ass or keep following up with programs after interviews via stupid political emails and letters. And this whole "Thank you card" thing people send after interviews...more bullsh*t...one person sends these thank you cards and then everybody feels obligated to do so because this one person just raised the bar by introducing another variable into the equation.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Then there are people who go on second visits to places. Geezus. Raising the bar again! I started feeling guilty because I felt too tired to go onto second visits and so many people were doing this. "Maybe they will feel that I'm not interested because I didn't go on a second visit! Oh no. I may not match. I may have to do a postdoc instead!" Why do these people gotta make my life all difficult and ****? 😛

 

[yaah]

I think the whole business of "we won't rank you unless you rank us #1" actually does work for some people. They get freaked out, and they convince themselves in the end that they made the right decision. In actuality, it is a match violation and if someone were to report it the program would be the one in trouble, not the applicant. Easier said than done though, no one wants to be "that guy" who reports it. Of course, one could be anonymous...

There was only one program (who has since changed PDs, so it may not be the same there anymore, so don't ask which one) that told me they would only rank me if I was definitely interested in their program. So I said yes I was. I ended up ranking them somewhere between 5 and 7, can't quite remember, but I was honest. I did really like their program and would have been happy there.

It's bull**** though. Programs I guess make themselves happy by only going so far down on their rank list, even if the reason they only go down to #10 is that they are altering the game and being sleazy about it. It's dishonest, and it isn't really that much dissimilar to a dick measuring contest. They like to be able to tell applicants that they only go to #10 on their rank list to fill their 8 spots. Ooooh! That must mean you are so special! 🙄 Thankfully these programs are few and far between.

 

[bananaface]

To me a second visit says "Your program didn't impress me enough the first time but I'll give you a second chance." Or, alternately, "I'm a slow learner and can't figure out whether or not this program is for me in the standard timeframe." Why would a second visit be raising the bar? It would seem to be more of a red flag.

 

[yaah]

To me a second visit says "Your program didn't impress me enough the first time but I'll give you a second chance." Or, alternately, "I'm a slow learner and can't figure out whether or not this program is for me in the standard timeframe." Why would a second visit be raising the bar? It would seem to be more of a red flag.

All due respect, in the pathology world, second visits are not seen this way either by candidates or by programs. There are simply many things you can't get a great read on in just the interview day, and this is why many programs offer it as a further way to learn about the program and see things day to day. It is generally a no pressure situation - programs don't think more highly of you if you do, and won't criticize you if you don't. Programs start to roll together after awhile, and it's hard to actually figure out what day to day life is actually like there.

Usually you spend the second visit hanging out with residents. More interviews aren't involved.

I don't know what % of people do second visits. I didn't do any, but it may have been more for geographical reasons - the programs I would have considered doing it at would have required another plane flight or something.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

with all due respect, i must agree with my fellow colleague here. second visits are another way also to show interest in the program. some programs will respond favorably to that and may bump you up on their rank lists.

 

[yaah]

some programs will respond favorably to that and may bump you up on their rank lists.

Uh oh, the gunners are all going to be doing second visits now. 😛

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Uh oh, the gunners are all going to be doing second visits now. 😛

not only the gunners but the obsessive-compulsive folks with good hearts too. that's why i said, "raise the bar" and "f*ck with my ****". Why can't I be a lazy ass who does the bare minimum and still be rewarded? Is that too much to ask? 😛

 

[fedor]

If they keep putting me up in a hotel and paying for dinner and drinks, I see no reason to stop at the 2nd visit.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

dude, are you even applying to path this year? just curious.

 

[fedor]

dude, are you even applying to path this year? just curious.

No, but that's no reason for me not to take advantage of the free hotels and grub. I'm KiaSu like that.

 

[Raskolnikov]

Thanks to everyone that answered my original question. This whole process is a major crapshoot. Is it safe to assume that if given an interview, then a slot on the rank list, whether high or low, is guaranteed as long as you don't make an idiot out of yourself? Is the interview an opportunity to essentially improve your positioning on the rank list, or do programs interview many more candidates than they can accomodate on their list? Thanks again everyone. Your comments have been very helpful.

 

[yaah]

I don't think there is a limit on the size of their list - it's really only limited by how much effort they want to put into extending it well past where they usually go on their rank list. Programs have run into trouble with this (I'm not sure about path programs, but I know some IM have) where they only rank 20 because they NEVER go past 15 on their rank list, and then well, surprise, they don't fill.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Thanks to everyone that answered my original question. This whole process is a major crapshoot. Is it safe to assume that if given an interview, then a slot on the rank list, whether high or low, is guaranteed as long as you don't make an idiot out of yourself? Is the interview an opportunity to essentially improve your positioning on the rank list, or do programs interview many more candidates than they can accomodate on their list? Thanks again everyone. Your comments have been very helpful.

It doesn't hurt for programs to make their rank lists 10-names long vs. 100-names long. It only hurts if you don't match! 👎

 

[uhoh!]

not only the gunners but the obsessive-compulsive folks with good hearts too. that's why i said, "raise the bar" and "f*ck with my ****". Why can't I be a lazy ass who does the bare minimum and still be rewarded? Is that too much to ask? 😛

damn right!!
really wish they would realise everyone would have less **** to deal with if they just learnt to hold it in a bit..the problem is universal.you see them going to the profs/attendings at the end of the day askng "questions" any first year could look up.. still, they are the ones the attendings notice,and then we are all expected to kiss @$$ the same way.in my country, they made life for us hell by going to greet the attendings with sweets/cards/flowers/gifts for the holidays!! 😕 'twas especially bugging since the holiday season was very close to the exams!do they practice such bare-faced bribery here?