How many programs?

[Abby_Normal]

About how many programs is it reasonable for a solid applicant to apply to in psychiatry? I've been told everything from 10--which sounds to me like it's cutting it a little close--to 30 (and then just pick and choose interviews carefully) which seems overwhelming. Any thoughts?

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[Doctor Bagel]

About how many programs is it reasonable for a solid applicant to apply to in psychiatry? I've been told everything from 10--which sounds to me like it's cutting it a little close--to 30 (and then just pick and choose interviews carefully) which seems overwhelming. Any thoughts?

With no red flags and some variety of programs, 10 is probably enough. How many can you apply to before they start charging you more? I'd at least go for that much because why not? 10 interviews would certainly be enough, and your average applicant gets interviews almost everywhere they apply. That whole psych becoming competitive thing still hasn't happened.

 

[Jalapeño King]

I applied to something like 20+ programs and found myself cancelling several interviews. I interviewed at 10 which in hindsight I believe was overkill. Got my #1, as did others I knew. If you're a solid applicant from the U.S. and aren't limiting yourself to the most competitive programs, you should be fine with a half dozen interviews. I'd agree that 10 is enough as long as you've got a couple of backup programs in there.

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

Strong applicants can be fine with 6 or 7. Moderate applicants should do 9 or 10. Red flag problems should do 20 - 30, but at some point, more will not add much to the odds. If you apply to 30 and get 10 interviews, you are going to 10 interviews. If you apply to 30 and get 30 interviews, you should go to 10 interviews.

Programs don’t interview applicants they are not willing to take. Please, please, don’t interview at places you know you would be unwilling to go to. If you do, do not put them on your list. Every match I get calls from people I interviewed that are looking for unexpected openings, but that matched in family medicine somewhere they don’t want to go. They always say something like “I don’t know why I put them in there, I’m begging to NRMP to let me out of my obligation.” This is serious business.

You will get the most data about how you are doing when you see what interview invites you get. Most people match near the top of their lists. If you don’t match in you top 5, you probably will not match in your top 30 either. There are exceptions, but it tends to go fairly black and white.

I would be poorly qualified to give advice on how to match in derm, but I do know psychiatry isn’t derm. Medical school advisors have a tendency to scare applicants into overkill because they don’t understand psychiatry. This causes problems on both sides. If all of the top applicants hold onto 20+ interviews and then run out of money and energy, they cancel late and space is lost for both sides. Our capacity to interview is finite, and as applicants keep ramping up the ratios, we have to begin to thin the interview experience, or risk not filling. Be good applicant citizens. If you are getting more than a dozen interviews and you know you are unlikely to want to go to a program, or if you know your time and budget will not get you somewhere, call and cancel. It makes room for others. Neither side likes wasting their time.

Bottom line, if you are getting invited to 90+% of where you apply, you are going to match. If you are getting only a handful of interviews, go to every single one of them. Apply broadly, but interview more narrowly if you are overwhelmed with opportunity. This can get expensive.

 

[TexasPhysician]

I applied to roughly 13 which was way too many in hindsight.

 

[barzan]

Strong applicants can be fine with 6 or 7. Moderate applicants should do 9 or 10. Red flag problems should do 20 - 30, but at some point, more will not add much to the odds. If you apply to 30 and get 10 interviews, you are going to 10 interviews. If you apply to 30 and get 30 interviews, you should go to 10 interviews.

Programs don’t interview applicants they are not willing to take. Please, please, don’t interview at places you know you would be unwilling to go to. If you do, do not put them on your list. Every match I get calls from people I interviewed that are looking for unexpected openings, but that matched in family medicine somewhere they don’t want to go. They always say something like “I don’t know why I put them in there, I’m begging to NRMP to let me out of my obligation.” This is serious business.

You will get the most data about how you are doing when you see what interview invites you get. Most people match near the top of their lists. If you don’t match in you top 5, you probably will not match in your top 30 either. There are exceptions, but it tends to go fairly black and white.

I would be poorly qualified to give advice on how to match in derm, but I do know psychiatry isn’t derm. Medical school advisors have a tendency to scare applicants into overkill because they don’t understand psychiatry. This causes problems on both sides. If all of the top applicants hold onto 20+ interviews and then run out of money and energy, they cancel late and space is lost for both sides. Our capacity to interview is finite, and as applicants keep ramping up the ratios, we have to begin to thin the interview experience, or risk not filling. Be good applicant citizens. If you are getting more than a dozen interviews and you know you are unlikely to want to go to a program, or if you know your time and budget will not get you somewhere, call and cancel. It makes room for others. Neither side likes wasting their time.

Bottom line, if you are getting invited to 90+% of where you apply, you are going to match. If you are getting only a handful of interviews, go to every single one of them. Apply broadly, but interview more narrowly if you are overwhelmed with opportunity. This can get expensive.

Well Said! what would your thoughts be in terms of IMG's?

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

I don’t have much IMG experience, but the concepts are similar I’m sure. I would bet that even a strong IMG could apply to over 20 places and get zero interviews if they only applied to places that don’t take IMGs. I do encourage IMGs to be bold and put in some long shots, just not exclusively so. Applying to every program in the United States isn’t going to help much more than applying to 20 with a wide range of probability. If you go to web sites and a program has no IMGs, or one token IMG who had an in via some sort of relationship, this would probably be unlikely. There are good programs who take IMGs, there are OK programs that take IMGs, and there are poor programs who take IMGs. Applying “broadly” isn’t just about the number of programs.

 

[psychattending]

You can look at the NRMP Match site. They will have some metrics about contiguous rankings and matching. They will break out the results by different variables (Board scores, IMG, publications, etc). That should also give you some idea.