How Many Radiation Oncologists Does the United States Need?

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How many of us would feel comfortable treating 150 pts per year all comers. Even 200 is low for most in private practice and would amount to less than 20 on treatment. Lastly, to your point of dropouts, still dont know anyone who has strait up retired, most go part time/locums etc.
Great points. Esp the last one. We've had two retirements in the last decade, and rather than hire a new partner, those two physicians have essentially agreed to fill in when needed to cover the clinic

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I always thought it was more like 35%. The future will probably be more like 25%.
Our hospital participates in some type of regional cooperative with tumor registries from nearby hospitals, and it in my neck of the woods it has been around 35% (we used to say 30% of pts got radiation as part of first course of cancer treatment, but this has also dropped into the mid 20s). FWIW, in my experience academic centers often have lower utilization of radiation.
 
Great points. Esp the last one. We've had two retirements in the last decade, and rather than hire a new partner, those two physicians have essentially agreed to fill in when needed to cover the clinic

Saw this at my place a few years back. Took over a new site. Good amt of patients. But after running the numbers it just made sense to pick up the slack yourself even with the added cost of inconvenience if driving to the site and forget about hiring. It’s just not cost effective to hire another RO even. They are in a desirable area and even though you’d get an RO at bargain basement prices it still made no sense.
 
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Our hospital participates in some type of regional cooperative with tumor registries from nearby hospitals, and it in my neck of the woods it has been around 35% (we used to say 30% of pts got radiation as part of first course of cancer treatment, but this has also dropped into the mid 20s). FWIW, in my experience academic centers often have lower utilization of radiation.

Do you find that’s an evidence based decision for the most part? I certainly have not. Usually the surgeon or the Med Onc Dept runs the show and calls the shots.
 
Its pretty easy numbers to get for resident or medstudent. How many new pts seen at cancer center and how many new starts in radiation department. I bet you that number is not 50% now although we all used to cite similar figures.
 
I've always heard the 50% number, and I'm actually bullish on the future. Data for treatment of oligomets continues to look good.

I do agree, however, that 150 patients is pretty low.
 
I've always heard the 50% number, and I'm actually bullish on the future. Data for treatment of oligomets continues to look good.

I do agree, however, that 150 patients is pretty low.

The people at my shop were doing 180 on avg with the part timers doing probably around 70-80 back in 2015. They used to complain they were getting overbooked. That was years ago and now the the volumes have dropped off probably now around 130-140/yr and they ditched the PTs and locums. Now they fight each other for cases. I think our GYN and Breast really took a hit hard that and referring patterns and practice style of the new Med oncs coming out of training.
 
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For Canadian numbers: https://www.redjournal.org/article/S0360-3016(19)30651-0/fulltext

According to their modelling, they are expecting a decrease in RO supply again in the next 5-7 years, so are anticipating by slowly bumping up new RO trainees starting next year, to try and target equilibrium.

The crazy thing is they have more control of they’re supply than we do and they couldn’t even really make it work well. They’re chasing an equilibrium that may not even be real. Trying to hit labor market equilibrium like that is like trying to catch a leprechaun.
 
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Also 100000 population per linac is not current state. It’s wrong because right now in a country of 350M that would mean 3500 linacs.

There are about 10,000 active linacs in America right now. That’s my guess because Varian has 8000 of their own active in their books.
 
My experience has been the newer MOs actually follow guidelines and are pro radiation when appropriate vs some old timers who think radiation is satanic

Unless of course you graduated from Dana-Farber and were trained by someone with a name ending in -ongo or Penn were everything can be solved with an ALK inhibtor or a myraid of TKIs for everything.
 
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This post above needs to be made more conspicuous for medical students. Not buried in the thread below the onslaught of comments.

Except there's way more variables in a complex condition like cancer and it's impossible to anticipate future demands. Not sure where the graph is from (not cited) but the decrease in CA in men would presumably be from decreased PSA screening. That's a detection issue, not an incidence issue. Also, advent of SBRT for mets will change the demand. How long will that trend last? No one knows but it's promising for oligo mets. IMO surgeons should be worried as their indications continue to constrict and they don't have a ton of new space to move. SBRT for Vtach? Looks incredibly promising and more centers are doing it. The only thing holding back that avalanche is a proper billing code.

So, take the talking heads here with a grain of salt. It's likely we are oversupplied, but it's not a simple fix and no system has a flexible method to make spaces aside from the Netherlands, where Ben Slotman tweaks it year to year.
 
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It would be nice if these people were blackballed from the private practice world for their dishonesty/ignorance (depending on how you look at it). I can't wait to see how they react when their only options are satellites paying 200k with plenty of opportunities to "mentor" future satellite monkeys. It's one thing to completely ignore the pyramid scheme, but to actively engage in it is disgusting. I overheard an academic chair at ASTRO gleaming as he explained how he recieved "over 100 applications" for a satellite job he advertised. Meanwhile, look at the GI forum: 3 open jobs for every graduating resident offering >700k in any city. Tell me a GI applicant would've even come close to rad onc in the last 10 years.

Retrain. It's not that complicated to get an open IM position and do GI.

RE: ARRO... RadBio High Yield Summary Webinar Not sure what you're doing for the specialty but those residents are advocating for their peers, improving education and lobbying for small classes and better training. All with their names in front of everyone. Posting for a group to be blackballed who actually does something shows a little about why it's not been easy to find the right job.
 
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So, take the talking heads here with a grain of salt. It's likely we are oversupplied, but it's not a simple fix and no system has a flexible method to make spaces aside from the Netherlands, where Ben Slotman tweaks it year to year.

So the possibility of more sbrt going forward, delivered in 5fx or less as per CMS guidelines, while traditional breast and prostate business moves towards surveillance and hypofx, is the reason why RO residency spots have essentially doubled in the last decade?

Doesn't make a lot of sense to me
 
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So the possibility of more sbrt going forward, delivered in 5fx or less as per CMS guidelines, while traditional breast and prostate business moves towards surveillance and hypofx, is the reason why RO residency spots have essentially doubled in the last decade?

Doesn't make a lot of sense to me

The two are not connected, but you are trying to connect them. Absolute revenue will go down in a fee for service model of reimbursement. Number of patients treated will likely go up, which may or may not require more docs. Those are trends dictated by science/research and are better for patients. As previously posted here, Rad Onc doesn't have much to complain about in salaries based on the Doximity data.

The number of spots is a free market mess, related to desire to have a spot, and having enough patients to do it. It would be ideal to have control over a resources that tax payers partly fund, but it's not exclusive to Rad Onc or even the US.
 
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The number of spots is a free market mess, related to desire to have a spot, and having enough patients to do it. It would be ideal to have control over a resources that tax payers partly fund, but it's not exclusive to Rad Onc or even the US.
Yet many other specialties manage things far, far better, whether you'll care to admit that or not
 
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Yet many other specialties manage things far, far better, whether you'll care to admit that or not
dead on. and to those who say we just dont know, we cant predict the future etc- that is not compatible with doubling training slots over 10 years. If you really cant predict anything (which is wrong), you would have to think it is a really bad idea/totally reckless to double training spots over such a short period, which happens to coincide with hypofractionation, apm etc.
 
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Retrain. It's not that complicated to get an open IM position and do GI.

Is that the MO now? Use residents for 4 years and then have them retrain in another residency? The fact that you think this is "not that complicated" hints at how narcissistic and nefarious many people's thoughts have become. Why would you ask medical students to pursue radiation oncology, only to have them retrain in something else when they finish?

Those residents at ARRO are cleaning up your mess. Not mine. Don't get confused.
 
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The two are not connected, but you are trying to connect them. Absolute revenue will go down in a fee for service model of reimbursement. Number of patients treated will likely go up, which may or may not require more docs. Those are trends dictated by science/research and are better for patients. As previously posted here, Rad Onc doesn't have much to complain about in salaries based on the Doximity data.

The number of spots is a free market mess, related to desire to have a spot, and having enough patients to do it. It would be ideal to have control over a resources that tax payers partly fund, but it's not exclusive to Rad Onc or even the US.
Except there's way more variables in a complex condition like cancer and it's impossible to anticipate future demands. Not sure where the graph is from (not cited) but the decrease in CA in men would presumably be from decreased PSA screening. That's a detection issue, not an incidence issue. Also, advent of SBRT for mets will change the demand. How long will that trend last? No one knows but it's promising for oligo mets. IMO surgeons should be worried as their indications continue to constrict and they don't have a ton of new space to move. SBRT for Vtach? Looks incredibly promising and more centers are doing it. The only thing holding back that avalanche is a proper billing code.
There are patients, and there are patients. There are new patients per week, per year, what have you. And then there's the real "number of patients treated" as you say, and that is the daily number under treatment. Again governed by a simple calculus, one which is not complex: number of new patients on average seen per week times average length of treatment in weeks. Ten years ago, when prostate treatments of 9 weeks and breast treatments of 6-7 weeks and palliative treatments of 2 weeks were de rigeur, the average number of weeks was 5. So if you saw 5 new patients a week you had 25 patients under treatment Now, breast is ~3 weeks, prostate ~6 weeks, palliative 0.2 weeks. (Whole brain RT is a vanishing animal, etc etc.) The average number of weeks is now likely 3.5; what was 25 patients/day is now ~17. So that alone right there means the number of new indications, and new patients, needs to be 20-40% more to offset that. It is not "impossible" to anticipate future demands. We can calculate the average planetary temperature 50 years into the future for Pete's sake. Oligomets SABRing is apt to be a wash with no survival advantage; the advantage we state now is tendentious at best. V-tach SABRing could be great. I have argued it could be the field's salvation. A horrible outcome on this though could be cardiologists trying to take on SABR like the neurosurgeons tried to usurp radiosurgery or a "CardioRads" à la Urorads outcome.

So in summary future demands must be 20-40% increased to counteract the 20-40% decrease in historical demands. And as shown previously the radiation oncology net production rate is increasing and greater than presently needed. The incidence of cancer is steady or decreasing (and it's not just PSA screening changes, as ironically the prostate cancer incidence and death rate is going up on account of this). The U.S. population is in a steady state (maybe not with immigration?). Theoretical life preservers like SABR are getting whacked in terms of reimbursement. And these salaries of which you speak. Would it be true that a radiation oncologist going into non-ACGME "fellowship" out of residency is the lowest paid of any specialist first year in practice of any specialty? And the radiation oncologist who can't get a job out of residency has got to be pretty low on the salary scale too.

Let's be honest and stop trying to slap veneers of truth over reasonable sounding piles of mendacity.
 
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So, take the talking heads here with a grain of salt.

Look, I'm sure you're an esteemed radiation oncologist in private practice or academics with decades of experience. But please stop trying to discredit us "talking heads". Our thesis is not malicious. We love radiation oncology. We're competent and skillful clinicians. Our thesis is just about numbers; that is, the number of radiation oncologists is disproportionately large compared to the number of patients that could benefit from radiotherapy, and more importantly, this is getting worse year-by-year. If this was remedied, it'd be good for patients (no over-treatment, no inappropriate use of outdated fractionation schedules), good for radiation oncologists (low unemployment rates), and good for society (no wasted Medicare dollars). Even if we assume it isn't easy to fix this oversupply issue --- and I'm not sure that's a valid assumption --- we should at least come to a consensus that an oversupply issue exists. Much like global warming, it's "complicated" to model and has seasonal and yearly variations, but the general trend is bad.

Not sure what you're doing for the specialty but those residents are advocating for their peers. All with their names in front of everyone.

A junior attending was fired for rubber-stamping his name on this issue of workforce oversupply. As a trainee, I sure as hell am not going to subject myself to a firing squad. I can afford to be more courageous later in my career.

The LINAC manufacturers have obvious incentive to inflate the number of radiation oncologists that the United States needs, because it plays directly into their sales projections and sales pitches to hospitals & clinics. The incentives of our greying leadership are not as straightforward, and I'm hopeful that instead of being hellbent on denying or downplaying the issue of oversupply, @GreyingRadOnc and others with actual power & influence in this field will come around.
 
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Perhaps instead of ASTRO (American Society for Rad Onc) we should change the name to the Canadian/American Society for (Therapeutic) Radiation Oncology.

CASTRO.

kMYhaEC.jpg

Castrated Society of Therapeutic (Trans) Radiation Oncology
 
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Those are trends dictated by science/research and are better for patients.

I love the propaganda, "better for patients." As if there aren't other motives at play. What's better for patients is having less radoncs and more PCPs, cardiologists, endocrinologists, and other needed specialists. Not cheap labor for academics and their chairs.
 
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Yet many other specialties manage things far, far better, whether you'll care to admit that or not


The number 1 reason for that success in other specialties is leadership from leaders. The mental gymnastics Rad Onc leaders play, it’ll blow your mind. It would be funny if it wasn’t sad. People like Kachnic who is now on her third institution in 3 years are just given free reign to ruin Rad onc, being given a platform to publish drivel bc zeitman allows it in the red journal. Why the hell does zeitman get this job for life, or that loser Wallner get his position for life.
 
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I love the propaganda, "better for patients." As if there aren't other motives at play. What's better for patients is having less radoncs and more PCPs, cardiologists, endocrinologists, and other needed specialists. Not cheap labor for academics and their chairs.
Is cardiology undersupplied? News to me. Seems saturated in many coveted areas. Urology seems far more in demand
 
Is cardiology undersupplied? News to me. Seems saturated in many coveted areas. Urology seems far more in demand

Well, fill in the blank. It's definately not radiation oncology, pathology or nuclear medicine. And the sages of our field, should stop using this propaganda. They're hurting patients by denying them qualified practitioners.
 
No matter if it is said in real life, an online forum, or by imaginary figures.

Demand for rad onc is falling in all projections. Fractions per treatment and indications decreasing. Supply is increasing. Chairs are offering fellowships to desperate grads. SBRT is the future but the ACGME says 10 cases is enough to graduate.

data is data. Congratulations to all those who soaped in this year.
 
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A new report by the OIG re: 3D-CRT had me thinking. (Really wild report! No more sim charges for 77295.) I don't think there are 10000 linacs in the U.S. Per the OIG, about 1500 hospitals in the U.S. bill for 3DCRT these days. Let's assume there are half as many freestanding centers; will leave it to others as to whether that's reasonable or not. And let's assume on average two linacs per center.

My primary point here is that one rad onc per linac is about right. And right now, we are in the process of surpassing the 1:1 ratio (5000+ rad oncs and ~4500 linacs). If you go back to 2006, it seems we were nicely under the 1:1 ratio; now we are going above it. In the academic world this 1:1 ratio may not hold true, but I think even there it's pretty close. (This would explain why, maybe, in academics there's more 300K jobs: splitting a 600K job between two people "sharing" one linac.) You can keep adding rad oncs, but if the number of linacs is not keeping pace eventually some sort of correction will come to pass I would think. It's like keeping on injecting a drug into a patient whose receptors for the drug are already saturated; past a certain point, more and more rad oncs are just like a wasted drug. More rad oncs ≠ more therapeutic benefits.
 
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A new report by the OIG re: 3D-CRT had me thinking. (Really wild report! No more sim charges for 77295.)


I hadn't seen this but figured it was coming.

Cliff's notes:
- yeah, we used to pay you for that CT simulation procedure. But medicare could save millions by just not paying you for it anymore and bundling it with something else. Sorry 'bout that.

Oh, what's that? We'd save a lot more by negotiating drug prices? Nah. Rather not.
 
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