How much cost of attendance is too high?

[0Mik3cho]

1-2 long essays are required for the scholarships that worth a couple hundred dollars at my school, so I never bother. Heck, I got more from the COVID stimulus check than any of those scholarships.

Is this a private or public school?

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[ToothJockey]

300k including both undergraduate and dental school. 500k including endo Perio oms specialty.

It's nice you took into consideration undergrad as well.

Undergrad schools are also getting more expensive (although not at the rate dental schools are).
If you have no scholarships or parental help, undergrad can easily tack on an extra 100k+ to your student loans.

I think that future pre-dents will have to start their pre-dental journey in high school. And by that I mean pick the cheapest undergrad you can possibly go to.

If I could go back to high school knowing what I know now, I would have worked my buttcheeks off and gotten a full ride somewhere. I've probably paid ~100k towards undergrad which could have been used towards dental school. But unfortunately at 15 I had no clue what the value of 100k was so I slacked off. Don't be like me kids.

 

[oralcare123]

Depends on what you can afford, how much effort you are prepared to put into paying off loans, how good your stats are and how many schools offered you an admission

 

[midds2022]

My two cents... I'll be 110k in the hole from 3 year HPSP and undergrad when I would've been about 350k in debt otherwise before interest. I can refinance 110k, live in a garbage house for 3 years, and pay that off by the time I'm 30-31. I don't regret that for a second, and I'm sure 32 year old me down the road trying to buy a practice and build passive income won't either. Obviously, military isn't for everyone, but I don't see how paying back 400k over 10 years or so after so much work to earn that higher salary or getting crushed by a tax bomb at the end of REPAYE seems like a better option than an NHSC/HPSP. What if you even happen to meet your future spouse in dental school and double that amount up? yikes lol...

 

[Adam_W]

You are in great shape. 110K is a good number.

 

[cloth_alert00]

make smart choices, ace ur SAT, get a full ride for undergrad, kill ur DAT, work in the summers, start tutoring. Basically, just hustle. Every drop of sweat will pay off in the long run.

 

[Molar Whisperer]

A subaru? Come on guys. You gotta live a little. Being a young boomer .... I grew up with cars. Cars were more than an appliance to get you from point A to B. But I get it. Now days people are just not that into cool cars. It also takes $$$ to have nice cars.

Here's my thoughts on car ownership. My dental specific longterm acct recommended that I lease my business cars through my C-Corp practice. Now. I did have 2 ortho practices at the time which made this easier. You can write off BUSINESS use .... not personal. But I wrote off maintenance, insurance, gas, etc. etc. So ... I leased some pretty cool cars. Why not? At the time ... I could afford it. YOLO.

Yes. Best to purchase expensive cars USED. I did this to obtain an expensive sportscar. I also had no intention of keeping the car longterm .... so best to buy used and save money. Same with your every day commuter cars. Save money and buy used.

Now. A caveat. If I plan to keep a car for a long time .... I buy BRAND NEW. That's just me.

I work Corp now ... so I purchased a cheap, inexpensive bland subcompact suv for the long commute I have. I work in some seedy areas ... so no need to draw attention and get car jacked. Once that little suv dies .... I'm looking at a small, inexpensive used electric car for commuter purposes.

Hey, don't knock Subarus too bad. This OS liked mine so much he bought 2 top of the line trims. 2 of my neighbors bought one as well. Too bad Subaru didn't offer me any endorsement deals. At my steep hill overlooking the valley, only Subarus can get around without chains when it gets icy. There was a nice Porsche that slid to its doom at a friends hill. Big pimping cars don't get the love they deserve in the Pacific NW. I guess the local au naturale hippies prefer their homemade bicycles and heavily decorated Priuses. Since Subaru is the unofficial car of the LGBT community, I felt bad for this female colleague (her hair was cut extra short) who was inappropriately hit on (a female pt tried to kiss her) for driving one. Man I had too much fun at my last DMO.

 

[cloth_alert00]

When the time is right, and your budget allows, you should invest in a nice car, clothes, and watch. Patients will respect you more. Not saying it is the right thing, but it is just the way it is. If you see a new Mercedes AMG in the "doctors parking" space, it will make ppl take you seriously. Of course, this is not a universal rule, it depends where you practice. I am in a large city, so these things matter.

 

[Molar Whisperer]

When the time is right, and your budget allows, you should invest in a nice car, clothes, and watch. Patients will respect you more. Not saying it is the right thing, but it is just the way it is. If you see a new Mercedes AMG in the "doctors parking" space, it will make ppl take you seriously. Of course, this is not a universal rule, it depends where you practice. I am in a large city, so these things matter.

A wise small town dentist once told me what a dentist drives (in a small town) matters. Drive too fancy and the pts will think their money is going there or anything similar. Drive too crappy and they will be ashamed of you.

If you set up an appropriate corporate entity, leasing nice cars are fairly attainable (tax write off like 2th MVR mentioned). My sister just started her practice from scratch less than 2 yrs ago and she's on her 3rd Acura lease during the Covid Closures. Since my W2 doesn't allow me to lease a Black on dark 23" carbon fiber wheel Audi RSQ8 murdered out with 19 speaker Bang & Olufson virtual reality sound system and 600 hp, my sister offered to lease one for me if I did her molar endos. I'm sure her 2 1/2 y/o resource needy son would love to ride in it. Maybe it can help me be a legit dentist in my city and show up all the lesser MDs with their $180k AMGs.

 

[Cold Front]

A wise small town dentist once told me what a dentist drives (in a small town) matters. Drive too fancy and the pts will think their money is going there or anything similar. Drive too crappy and they will be ashamed of you.

If you set up an appropriate corporate entity, leasing nice cars are fairly attainable (tax write off like 2th MVR mentioned). My sister just started her practice from scratch less than 2 yrs ago and she's on her 3rd Acura lease during the Covid Closures. Since my W2 doesn't allow me to lease a Black on dark 23" carbon fiber wheel Audi RSQ8 murdered out with 19 speaker Bang & Olufson virtual reality sound system and 600 hp, my sister offered to lease one for me if I did her molar endos. I'm sure her 2 1/2 y/o resource needy son would love to ride in it. Maybe it can help me be a legit dentist in my city and show up all the lesser MDs.

Don’t lease. Own. You still reap the same benefits as a lease and more.

I have a paid off customer built 3 yrs old Porsche and a 1 yr old Mercedes (my wife’s), and we still get $12-15k in commute to work mileage deductions between them every year. Unlike a lease, no monthly payments, no mileage restrictions, and no wear and tear talks. Clear and free. These days, any car that’s less than a 5y old is solid and has warranty like any new car.


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[Molar Whisperer]

Don’t lease. Own. You still reap the same benefits as a lease and more.

I have a paid off customer built 3 yrs old Porsche and a 1 yr old Mercedes (my wife’s), and we still get $12-15k in commute to work mileage deductions between them every year. Unlike a lease, no monthly payments, no mileage restrictions, and no wear and tear talks.


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Do you get rid of your cars before the warranty? Maintaining and repairing those kinds of cars are a money pit although they're tax write offs of course.

 

[Molar Whisperer]

When the time is right, and your budget allows, you should invest in a nice car, clothes, and watch. Patients will respect you more. Not saying it is the right thing, but it is just the way it is. If you see a new Mercedes AMG in the "doctors parking" space, it will make ppl take you seriously. Of course, this is not a universal rule, it depends where you practice. I am in a large city, so these things matter.

Very true. My wife and I were at a Lexus dealership for her dream car (RX350) and nobody would help us initially. If only the wf would buy mine......

 

[Cold Front]

Do you get rid of your cars before the warranty? Maintaining and repairing those kinds of cars are a money pit although they're tax write offs of course.

No. I actually don’t drive a lot. Work is 10 miles round trip from home. My wife and I drive together a lot. The cars are always in new condition, because we don’t have kids or pets that travel with us. Warranty in my opinion is not as an important perk for high end cars, because those brands take a lot of pride in longevity and zero issues of their cars. If the car has a major issue in the first 100k miles, it’s a bad PR for the manufacturer and they usually take care of the issue at a big discount if you have a good relationship with the local dealer. Warranties are more help in GM, Ford and similar US based cars - the Fix Or Repair Daily brands.


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[cloth_alert00]

Very true. My wife and I were at a Lexus dealership for her dream car (RX350) and nobody would help us initially. If only the wf would buy mine......

RX350 is a fabulous choice! I love the F sport trims..Plus Lexus dealerships always have the best snacks haha

 

[Molar Whisperer]

No. I actually don’t drive a lot. Work is 10 miles round trip from home. My wife and I drive together a lot. The cars are always in new condition, because we don’t have kids or pets that travel with us. Warranty in my opinion is not as an important perk for high end cars, because those brands take a lot of pride in longevity and zero issues of their cars. If the car has a major issue in the first 100k miles, it’s a bad PR for the manufacturer and they usually take care of the issue at a big discount if you have a good relationship with the local dealer. Warranties are more help in GM, Ford and similar US based cars - the Fix Or Repair Daily brands.


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Euro cars are known by many as being in the shop more than in use with many before 100k miles. And to do anything to them, they need special tools that only the dealer will have. Parts are a joke. A shifter in a Jag has a plastic part that fails and you have to buy the whole $600 kit plus labor. Mercedes are known for having BS sensors go bad leaving one stranded. My father has a Mercedes and it didn't happen to him yet but did to many of our acquaintances.

 

[Cold Front]

what porsche did you get CF? My brother just got a GT3, but has not been able to drive due to the virus/closed DMVs.

I drive a Macan Turbo, for its practicality. I’m looking into getting the new Targa 4S later this year. Saving the GT3 for retirement. lol


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[2TH MVR]

This thread should have been renamed: "How much cost of attendance is too high? if your end goal is a Subaru (exception: Subaru WRX STi @rsk384 ) vs. the 911 GT3 RS. lol.

 

[yappy]

When the time is right, and your budget allows, you should invest in a nice car, clothes, and watch. Patients will respect you more. Not saying it is the right thing, but it is just the way it is. If you see a new Mercedes AMG in the "doctors parking" space, it will make ppl take you seriously. Of course, this is not a universal rule, it depends where you practice. I am in a large city, so these things matter.

lol, really? I seriously doubt this. It must be regional because where I live people adopt the "soak the rich" mentality. Being successful earns you zero points.

 

[Cold Front]

my brother, normally financially astute and all, sort of KINDA regrets it, only because he has to buy a home/apt as well after some changes in his daily affairs. But, he's been a work horse since we were kids and doesn't ever splurge nada once, so I can't blame him. Plus, cars give him the most joy.

But, coldfront, I only say this cause I care for you. You're not getting any younger. Why not skip the targa 4s, and also skip the GT3 for retirement-we know that isn't happening ever.

Spring for the 911 GT3 RS instead, 1 epic piece of machinery instead of 2- lesser, but still mighty impressive, autos. Come on you deserve it. haha Let me live thru you

I drove by a GT3 on my way to work today, with a vanity plate “ALL EGO”.

Anyways, even if I wanted to get a GT3 today, the new 992 generation is not out yet - probably next year.

As [mention]2TH MVR [/mention]said, we hijacked this thread! lol


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[Cold Front]

lol, really? I seriously doubt this. It must be regional because where I live people adopt the "soak the rich" mentality. Being successful earns you zero points.

I agree.


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[Molar Whisperer]

I drove by a GT3 on my way to work today, with a vanity plate “ALL EGO”.

Anyways, even if I wanted to get a GT3 today, the new 992 generation is not out yet - probably next year.

As [mention]2TH MVR [/mention]said, we hijacked this thread! lol


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Some perspectives before this thread gets retired/locked. Although waiting for the GT3 makes more financial sense, there are some inevitable drawbacks. When you get older, your body and senses deteriorates so you won't be able to drive it as fast. Newer generations are trending toward more electric so you won't be able to enjoy the old school motor revs. Like 2TH MVR mentioned previously, YOLO. Make CPAs earn their keep. Have him or her find you hidden deductions, newly implemented IRS loopholes, recharacterize protected trust funds, set up off shore accts & shell companies, and have your hungry banker remortgage your commercial and rental properties. Once you have your car, everyday would be more meaningful and feel like Saturdays. And most of all, the feeling you get when your peers and hometown folks view you as Mack Daddy is priceless.

 

[Cold Front]

Some perspectives before this thread gets retired/locked. Although waiting for the GT3 makes more financial sense, there are some inevitable drawbacks. When you get older, your body and senses deteriorates so you won't be able to drive it as fast. Newer generations are trending toward more electric so you won't be able to enjoy the old school motor revs. Like 2TH MVR mentioned previously, YOLO. Make CPAs earn their keep. Have him or her find you hidden deductions, newly implemented IRS loopholes, recharacterize protected trust funds, set up off shore accts & shell companies, and have your hungry banker remortgage your commercial and rental properties. Once you have your car, everyday would be more meaningful and feel like Saturdays. And most of all, the feeling you get when your peers and hometown folks view you as Mack Daddy is priceless.

I live in a downtown community (for 0 property taxes reasons) and the downside of living in a downtown area, or at least in neighborhoods adjacent to it - is the abundance of potholes, at least in my city. I would be stopping and going and maneuvering literally like a race a car around those potholes if I drove a GT3 in my neck of the woods. Unless I go for long distant drives with much smoother roads in the suburbs and further out of the city.

Anyways, my Macan Turbo is really good daily fun Porsche car now. Plus there is 4-5 months of winter in my state (the reason for those potholes), so I will have to treat any 911 car I will own like a boat - and keep it dormant in the winter until warmer weather returns.

The better idea for me would be to have a winter home at somewhere warm - and have a 911 there.

Again, we didn’t just hijack this thread... we are asking for a ransom to give it back to the OP at this point.


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[cluelessdr]

well i really dont know what else to do with my life other than dental school? especially with a bio degree i cant do much

 

[Molar Whisperer]

well i really dont know what else to do with my life other than dental school? especially with a bio degree i cant do much

Save money by living at home if possible. Buy a foreclosed or fixer upper 4 BR preferrably close to a community college or similar. Make sure the property has no liens. Fix it up and live in it while renting the other 3 BRs. You will live in it for free plus passive income. This process will help you know the ins and outs of real estate to prepare your next property investment. During the recession, many properties are on sale, some on clearance. The 4 yrs in DS sucks, the dental income is sucking and the school loans will be a nightmare to pay back.

 

[Molar Whisperer]

Haha, I feel so bad for OP. But, drcobad, you make great points, as well as 2th/CF. We always talk about financial acuity and may sometimes do so to a hyperbolic degree, this is to reinforce how utterly poopey the situation is. But, it's nice to have the semblance of balance for the fulfillment purposes and satiate your soul. Because in all seriousness, your contentment, optics of your success/happiness/progression of wealth etc are all important factors. Obviously, when you get to this stage in life, you would have navigated thru the monsoon/hurricane/covid-19/nuclear that is coming for you in debt/financial hurdles in the dental field and life, so it is assumed you would have the skill set and 'earned' the right to even have that decision to make (buying the GT3 now rather than later) But, potholes are a pain. I have an e300 with the amg package (which is just the body trim, lowered with the airmatic suspension to give the sportier look, as well as 19 inch low profile, run flats. I have owned it since 2017 and have popped/have to exchange 5-6 maybe of them since 2018. Just did one the other day. The manufacturer has an issue with these tires for some reason, or the consumers do, and I live in Long Island/commuted into NYC for some time. Property taxes are INSANE on long island, and our roads are even worse, which makes no damn sense. I respect CF's decision, man. Watching your baby(ies in CFs/2TH's case) get roughed around like that, man. Also, the stop and go traffic is killing my brake pads, I feel just awful. Replaced them after only 8k miles... some people tell me that is normal for benz or this model of auto. I didn't know if I was angrier at him or the NYS for not fixing the potholes.

OP, I am officially so sorry. We can DM each other or take this elsewhere, haha. thanks for being a good sport.

In my opinion and I have a lot of acquaintances that are mechanics, lease Euro cars, keep Japanese. Numerous sources in the Mercedes Forums (I'm a car, business, and dental nerd) describe nightmares with ownership including many BS sensors failing causing people to get stranded including a coworker.

 

[Molar Whisperer]

this isn't bad advice at all. The only reason I wouldn't say it's FANTASTIC is college students, while in ever abundant supply, are sometimes very, very annoying to deal with. Some or most are generally great if studious and all, the money is usually there and no issues with rent, however the damages sometimes or liabilities that potentially exist could be problematic. Plus, it's nice to have the option of locking in long term contracts with tenants ya know, having to look for/screen/interview and show people every year takes its toll, this is what I observed growing up and seeing my folks do it. Now, my dad usually makes me or my siblings/cousins do this kind of work or management companies if he chooses to do one. seeing as it is your first endeavor, maybe it would be good experience. I could be totally wrong as it's dependent on your location, as well. But, It's a very solid option.

Real estate bubbles do exist and we have been in one for a long time, but with modern keyesnian (crap) economics and fear of executing austerity measures, we are probably just going to kick the can down the road more until this race war breaks out/covid nuclear war. This could be problematic if capital is hard to acquire. Also, it may be tough to find a solid deal as the whole mark to market pricing still encapsulates everyone's mentality in homeowner transactions. Just because they paid XYZ for a home or their neighbors sold it ABC amount, they believe the same should be of their homes. Sadly, we never learn from our past (if 2008 qualifies as 'the past'). I have a myopic viewpoint, OP, so hopefully others can shed light on the contrary point of view. Don't feel obligated to resort to the debt trap of dentistry, It's okay to feel a little lost. We all do at some point.

Usually you start out modestly living in 1 BR and renting the other 3. Your point is very valid. I may be wrong but I can't foresee someone renting a BR long-term and I witnessed this at a CC an hr away. The owner was 25 yo and knows what he is doing. As a young RE investor expands to buying a quadplex and living in one unit (numerous sources recommend this setup), then the chances of long-term tenants may be more realistic.

 

[Molar Whisperer]

very fair points. I only suggested that as a possibility because from my experience (just a note, my family is Punjabi, north indian), there's a tendency for people of the same ethnicity/south asian countrymen to occupy my folks' facilities. Obviously, this is a cultural thing I should have accounted for (lol), but usually these are students on certain VISAS or given a government stipend from their consulate or w.e so they aren't opposed to the idea as they like the familiar faces and have a sense of community. A lot of their property are located in Queens/Brooklyn/Jersey with a high degree of South Asian/ethnic folk. And, by long term I mean like 2-3 years. I have never seen a longer type of contract exist, except for commercial property my family has owned.

Regardless, I kind of condensed my family's perspective on this stuff, and didn't assume myself as a neophyte in the game. Thanks for bringing me down to reality and keeping my honest. You are definitely right. And, it's not a bad option at all. It will get you more hands on and experienced so you can, one day, correct my stupid butt.

The only thing that makes me really hesitant on giving advice, maybe to a point of a guilty conscious, is I really am dubious about forecasting the future economic climate and potential corrective measures (be it austerity or the Keynesian voodoo magic of monetary and fiscal corrections). I thought the housing markets would have crashed back in 2018 and then look at what happened (in NY/the surrounding metropolis). Given the recent wealth acquisition of our billionaire class and hampered economic viability, I really wonder what to advise or listen to.

First off, I don't know what you're wrong about. We lived in Yonkers in the 70's where my dad did his OBGyn residency in Manhattan. Then he decided to move us to the polar opposite place where RE is crap. Except for my dad, we suffered socially at this place, but rural and undesirable was the only option for a foreign born, heavily accented doctor to survive (I did notice a lot of foreign doctors at big cities as well so I didn't get it). It was until I finished USAF and moved to the Pacific NW where I witnessed RE can be lucrative. For example, a 4 suite commercial property in Seattle built in 1997 for $670k sold after the recession in 2010 for $4.5 mil. Here is a link to a similar source with more lucrative appreciation in value....

3601 Fremont Ave N, Seattle, WA

39454 sq. ft. condo located at 3601 Fremont Ave N, Seattle, WA 98103 sold for $575,000 on Sep 15, 1987. View sales history, tax history, home value estimates, and overhead views. APN 264370001002.

www.redfin.com

You can get burned in RE as well. I wished I knew more options when I was growing up. What I hope to guide my kids is invest in the least amount of school debt through scholarships, cheap, living at home, etc. and not with a useless degree. I'm not sure if it is a generational culture, but I had a disagreement with my brother's wife who is a Millennial. It was about useless college degrees and the exorbitant amt of loans to achieve it. For example, is it justifiable to take out a $250k loan to study Masters in Library Science at a private school in Vermont (this was 10 to 15 yrs ago) to be an effing Librarian? It wasn't her but she thinks all college degrees are worth it. I'm sure Millennials would come after me with pitchforks.

 

[cluelessdr]

Save money by living at home if possible. Buy a foreclosed or fixer upper 4 BR preferrably close to a community college or similar. Make sure the property has no liens. Fix it up and live in it while renting the other 3 BRs. You will live in it for free plus passive income. This process will help you know the ins and outs of real estate to prepare your next property investment. During the recession, many properties are on sale, some on clearance. The 4 yrs in DS sucks, the dental income is sucking and the school loans will be a nightmare to pay back.

so you are saying no to dental school? lol

 

[2TH MVR]

so you are saying no to dental school? lol

Look. Everyone's situation will be different. There are other options out there such as PA, CRNA, medical school, etc. If you are dead set on dentistry .... then you will have to have a plan to pay off your DS loans if they are excessive. Its been mentioned here many times.

Plan on working 6 days or more at multiple places.
Live like a poor student.
Go where other dentists do not want to go: rural. Lower cost of living.
Consider the federal public dental clinics that help with debt repayment.
Remember that getting a loan for a dental practice can be tough if you have excessive DS loans
If going private practice (should be your goal after 1 or 2 yrs out of DS) .... consider buying into a practice with sweat equity or owner financing. These may be your only options if the banks will not lend you money.

If your goal is to simply work as an associate or Corp ...... you'll never get ahead. Never. You'll be paying your DS debt well into your late 40's if not longer.

Anything is possible. Dentistry is a great field if you can graduate with minimal future debt. But like everything in life ... if you pay too much for something ...it will affect all your future financial decisions downstream.

There is no magic bullit or magic advice that can be given to you. We all pay our dues. Some longer than others.

 

[Molar Whisperer]

so you are saying no to dental school? lol

It is not fair for me to say no or yes. I provided you options I wished I knew when I was in your position. We all wish to have our wiser 25 yr older versions come back and tell us what to do. I regret growing up suppressed Asian style with no creativity, personality, and outside-the-box inspirations.

 

[exceedingexpectations]

When you guys mention these amounts (200K, 350K, etc) does that include living costs as well or just tuition/school fees?

 

[0Mik3cho]

When you guys mention these amounts (200K, 350K, etc) does that include living costs as well or just tuition/school fees?

I was referring to total cost of attendance (tuition + fees + room and board) without considering interest.

 

[GoDental101]

When you guys mention these amounts (200K, 350K, etc) does that include living costs as well or just tuition/school fees?

Good point, personally I include living costs when I project my cost of attendance. If someone isn’t including that just add about 100k to their number. Technically cost of attendance includes living costs, but some people may not include that to make themselves feel better about it.

 

[allDAT]

All in you should be below 400k and your spouse will need to work earning at least 55k/year with good Health insurance benefits. Your spouse will then need to increase his or her earning potential as you grow your income and decrease your debt.

If you’re doing this alone, 300k or less. There are a variety of reasons for the decease.