How much cost of attendance is too high?

[0Mik3cho]

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What schools should I just not apply to on the basis of cost? I'm currently setting this threshold to $400,000 cost of attendance (not including interest). That leaves me with 14 schools to apply to.

 

[deleted903013]

Apply to your state school(s). My limit was 250k post interest when I applied last cycle, which only left my state school. 400k is way too much for your average new dentist imo. Many dentists I've seen on here and on dental town have said 200-250k. No matter what limit you set, have a plan to pay it and know exactly what you're getting yourself into financially. Look into scholarships like HPSP and NHSC as well. I also recently saw this video and thought it might be worthwhile. Best of luck.
.

 

[0Mik3cho]

Apply to your state school(s). My limit was 250k post interest when I applied last cycle, which only left my state school. 400k is way too much for your average new dentist imo. Many dentists I've seen on here and on dental town have said 200-250k. No matter what limit you set, have a plan to pay it and know exactly what you're getting yourself into financially. Look into scholarships like HPSP and NHSC as well. I also recently saw this video and thought it might be worthwhile. Best of luck.
.

Great video. So here's my reasoning so far. Excuse me while I think aloud. My in-state school is $320k. If I limit myself to $350,000 and include out of state schools that allow changing to in-state tuition, that leaves me with 8 schools (I can live at home or with relatives for three schools). HPSP sounds great but nothing is a sure bet and I heard they cut the spots available and now only have 3 year programs. I've got very limited leadership experience and no relationship to the military so I'm not really betting on it though. So what I think I'll do is apply to sub-$350,000 schools and HPSP. If I have to apply again, then I'll include more privates and apply for HPSP again. If I don't get into the sub-$350,000 schools or the privates with HPSP, then that's that. I don't want to have to turn down an acceptance to a more expensive school the first time around because of the risk involved in turning down an acceptance to reapply. Asides from my $350,000 limit, are there any flaws to my reasoning?

 

[2TH MVR]

At least you are thinking about your present and future financial obligations. 350K is obviously better than 500K. Your reasoning is sound. What you haven't mentioned is once you become a dentist .... where are you going to practice? That makes a huge difference. Going rural or semi-rural and eventually having your own practice will make paying your DS debt much easier than working as an Associate/Corp in a saturated city.

 

[frentist]

What schools should I just not apply to on the basis of cost? I'm currently setting this threshold to $400,000 cost of attendance (not including interest). That leaves me with 14 schools to apply to.

I applied to 15 schools last cycle without even considering the financial implications (I was very naive in part because I didn't think I would even get an interview with my low academic stats). In retrospect, I would have only applied to five schools who costs before interest all are under 350 K

I got into one of the state schools and after interest, my total comes out to 350K

if my only choice was to get accepted at a school that cost over 400 k before interest, I would have reapplied the following cycle

 

[AONLINE]

It's so hard to come up with a cut off. Some say $350k, while some dentists look at that and say no way, only below $250k would work.

 

[BasicG]

I applied to 15 schools and looking back, I should've applied to only 5-8 affordable ones. If you're going to apply to expensive 400-600k schools, you should also be applying for an HPSP scholarship in all 3 branches. You'll find out if you got the scholarship in December(ish) and you can use that to decide which school you'll attend.

 

[0Mik3cho]

At least you are thinking about your present and future financial obligations. 350K is obviously better than 500K. Your reasoning is sound. What you haven't mentioned is once you become a dentist .... where are you going to practice? That makes a huge difference. Going rural or semi-rural and eventually having your own practice will make paying your DS debt much easier than working as an Associate/Corp in a saturated city.

I’m fine practicing rural or semi-rural in the Northeast (Maybe Midwest). I don’t love the city enough to accept lower pay.

 

[LFA20]

What schools should I just not apply to on the basis of cost? I'm currently setting this threshold to $400,000 cost of attendance (not including interest). That leaves me with 14 schools to apply to.

above 200k before interests I wouldn’t attend.

aka you need to have help from parents, savings, rich relatives/wives, or military/nhsc

 

[LFA20]

Great video. So here's my reasoning so far. Excuse me while I think aloud. My in-state school is $320k. If I limit myself to $350,000 and include out of state schools that allow changing to in-state tuition, that leaves me with 8 schools (I can live at home or with relatives for three schools). HPSP sounds great but nothing is a sure bet and I heard they cut the spots available and now only have 3 year programs. I've got very limited leadership experience and no relationship to the military so I'm not really betting on it though. So what I think I'll do is apply to sub-$350,000 schools and HPSP. If I have to apply again, then I'll include more privates and apply for HPSP again. If I don't get into the sub-$350,000 schools or the privates with HPSP, then that's that. I don't want to have to turn down an acceptance to a more expensive school the first time around because of the risk involved in turning down an acceptance to reapply. Asides from my $350,000 limit, are there any flaws to my reasoning?

No body cares about your leadership experience/connection in the military. I had none of them when I applied and got it. It’s all based on availability and TIMING of your application. The sooner you apply the better. You need to apply to ALL branches of the military and NHSC ASAP. Decide later if you want to take them or not..

good luck

 

[GoDental101]

I’m fine practicing rural or semi-rural in the Northeast (Maybe Midwest). I don’t love the city enough to accept lower pay.

I would say just limit yourself to those cheaper schools. I limited myself to 5 schools that fit what I thought were worth it. I was accepted to 4 of them and I declined the interview to one of them, and it looks like your stats are better than mine. You'll be fine!

P.S In your case at the maximum I would set that 350k threshold with the max of 8 schools. You could probably apply to less and save money on the application and be fine.

 

[Anondds87]

I applied to 15 schools last cycle without even considering the financial implications (I was very naive in part because I didn't think I would even get an interview with my low academic stats). In retrospect, I would have only applied to five schools who costs before interest all are under 350 K

I got into one of the state schools and after interest, my total comes out to 350K

if my only choice was to get accepted at a school that cost over 400 k before interest, I would have reapplied the following cycle

Yes but this is how people get screwed. They say their cutoff is 350k but only get an acceptance for 450k and think oh well, what's an extra 100k debt going to make over my lifetime.

People should apply to the 350k schools only and apply to different degrees too so they dont have to put themselves in a tough decision, applying to the more expensive schools just leaves potential for a tough choice and no one is turning down their expensive offer as psychologically it's a hard thing to do

Ps for me that number is 250k as the cutoff

 

[frentist]

applying to the more expensive schools just leaves potential for a tough choice and no one is turning down their expensive offer as psychologically it's a hard thing to do

I completely agree with you.

if I had to start my pre dent journey again, it would be by first speaking with CPA/ financial advisor and running through the numbers, having a frank conversation with all the dentist I shadowed about the financial implications about joining this profession ( only one of which told me to find another career). I would also have the mindset that I can only become a dentist if I apply to affordable schools (and that there is nothing wrong with reapplying if I don't get in on my first try)

in my case, this pandemic to make me realize how big of a mistake I was going to make by going to a public OOS school which before interest was 450 K (after interest is was 540 K) prior to being accepted to the dental school in my hometown

 

[GoDental101]

Yes but this is how people get screwed. They say their cutoff is 350k but only get an acceptance for 450k and think oh well, what's an extra 100k debt going to make over my lifetime.

People should apply to the 350k schools only and apply to different degrees too so they dont have to put themselves in a tough decision, applying to the more expensive schools just leaves potential for a tough choice and no one is turning down their expensive offer as psychologically it's a hard thing to do

Ps for me that number is 250k as the cutoff

How many schools fit that 250k cutoff?

 

[0Mik3cho]

How many schools fit that 250k cutoff?

Per the ADEA Explorer for 2019, it was just Southern Illinois University for in-state. Only hope of sub-$300,000 COA is the public schools.

Correction: Other sub $250,000 schools include Puerto Rico, Mississippi, Texas A&M, West Virginia University, and University of Alabama.

 

[GoDental101]

Per the ADEA Explorer for 2019, it was just Southern Illinois University for in-state. Only hope of sub-$300,000 COA is the public schools.

Yeah I figured the chances were slim for a 250k school I don’t know how he is setting that as his limit....When I applied the cheapest school on my list was going to cost me 280k the rest were around 350kish. Now I’m estimating to come out of it having paid a total of 200k due to scholarships and grants.

 

[0Mik3cho]

Yeah I figured the chances were slim for a 250k school I don’t know how he is setting that as his limit....When I applied the cheapest school on my list was going to cost me 280k the rest were around 350kish. Now I’m estimating to come out of it having paid a total of 200k due to scholarships and grants.

Actually I'm wrong (Deleted some schools in my spreadsheet and forgot about these ones). Other schools include Puerto Rico ($120k), Mississippi ($146k), Texas A&M ($221k), University of Texas ($238k), West Virginia University ($241k), and University of Alabama ($243k).

 

[ToothJockey]

Not sure if this has been mentioned but I just wanna add with your 28AA, you should be able to receive some scholarships. That should help lower your COA.

Also, there's only 14 schools that cost <400k pre-interest? WTF!!! I knew it was bad but I didn't know it was this bad.

 

[0Mik3cho]

Not sure if this has been mentioned but I just wanna add with your 28AA, you should be able to receive some scholarships. That should help lower your COA.

Also, there's only 14 schools that cost <400k pre-interest? WTF!!! I knew it was bad but I didn't know it was this bad.

That's what I'm hoping for. But even so, I don't want to apply for anything over $350,000 incase I don't get scholarships and have to turn down an acceptance. Purely from a numbers perspective, I've got very good odds at my in-state school but of course, no guarantees.

And seriously, it's absurd. If not for COVID-19, I would have never started worrying about the finances.

 

[Ivy.ch]

I used to think that there would be an economic incentive for schools to keep COA low - the best and brightest would choose to go to the cheapest schools. That was definitely the case here at state school. Most of us got accepted to every school we applied to, but turned the others down for money. But then I realized students are just cattle for most schools; they don't even care about attracting the best students with a lower COA.

Maybe pre-dents should start with this question: how much of my salary am I willing to throw into the garbage every year? Most wouldn't say $54,000 every single year for most of their life (which after taxes, leaves them about, what, like $60,000 to live on?). Yet, follow the calculation @Big Time Hoosier just did in the other post, and that's the reality of the loans a typical student is taking these days. $300k or $600k doesn't make sense to a human, especially not a 21-year-old brain. They see the $120k number and imagine $120k going into their pocket every year. Well, more actually, because obviously they're special. And $150k x 4 years = $600k, so it will take them about 4 or 5 years to pay it off (because they're thrifty and willing to work wherever, duh). I kid you not, pre-dents think this way.

Sorry for ranting. I'm basically a 4th year now, so I think I have a little allowance to complain here.

 

[deleted903013]

$300k or $600k doesn't make sense to a human, especially not a 21-year-old brain. They see the $120k number and imagine $120k going into their pocket every year. Well, more actually, because obviously they're special. And $150k x 4 years = $600k, so it will take them about 4 or 5 years to pay it off (because they're thrifty and willing to work wherever, duh). I kid you not, pre-dents think this way.

I was browsing the USC forum and an accepted pre dent said the price of USC wasn't actually ridiculous because of USC's "world-renowned doctors". I don't care if you're being taught by GV Black himself, no dental school is worth 152k per year. It's sad how uniformed pre dents are about personal finance.

 

[0Mik3cho]

I was browsing the USC forum and an accepted pre dent said the price of USC wasn't actually ridiculous because of USC's "world-renowned doctors". I don't care if you're being taught by GV Black himself, no dental school is worth 152k per year.

$152k per year for a necromancy + dental program taught by GV Black sounds like a good deal.

 

[Ivy.ch]

I was browsing the USC forum and an accepted pre dent said the price of USC wasn't actually ridiculous because of USC's "world-renowned doctors". I don't care if you're being taught by GV Black himself, no dental school is worth 152k per year.

There are very scientific studies showing the less the attending gets paid, the more they want to go home early, the more likely they are to help me get things done in clinic, and the less likely they are to contribute to the daily hell that is the dental school clinic.

 

[Awisdomtooth]

I was browsing the USC forum and an accepted pre dent said the price of USC wasn't actually ridiculous because of USC's "world-renowned doctors". I don't care if you're being taught by GV Black himself, no dental school is worth 152k per year. It's sad how uniformed pre dents are about personal finance.

There is no such a thing as “ world-renowned doctors” at USC. As a graduate from USC, I can assure you that what they teach you is no difference compare to other dental schools. I have worked with graduates from tuft, NYU, UCLA and Nova. We all shared the same knowledge As a new grads when we started working. Your choice in dentistry should be the cheapest program. You will appreciate it once you graduate and start working

 

[P7898]

What schools should I just not apply to on the basis of cost? I'm currently setting this threshold to $400,000 cost of attendance (not including interest). That leaves me with 14 schools to apply to.

That is WAYYYY too high.

 

[0Mik3cho]

That is WAYYYY too high.

Agreed. My threshold is now $350k. My instate option is around ~$300k-$320k which I am aiming for. There's also a decent private school near me for around that price. I now have 8 schools on my list. Fingers crossed for some scholarships.

 

[0Mik3cho]

There is no such a thing as “ world-renowned doctors” at USC. As a graduate from USC, I can assure you that what they teach you is no difference compare to other dental schools. I have worked with graduates from tuft, NYU, UCLA and Nova. We all shared the same knowledge As a new grads when we started working. Your choice in dentistry should be the cheapest program. You will appreciate it once you graduate and start working

Did all of those graduates you worked with go through GPRs or AEGDs (Assuming you're a general dentist)?

 

[Awisdomtooth]

Did all of those graduates you worked with go through GPRs or AEGDs (Assuming you're a general dentist)?

NYU, yes. The rest not as far as I remember. But I highly recommend a good GPR or AEGD program for new grads specialty post COVID

 

[Cold Front]

What schools should I just not apply to on the basis of cost? I'm currently setting this threshold to $400,000 cost of attendance (not including interest). That leaves me with 14 schools to apply to.

There are 3 of things that could be missing and are not being considered from the basis of your $400k threshold:

1. All current and “known” tuition and cost of attendance fees are only good for 12 months. After that, tuition and cost will go up each year at every dental school - and that cost is “unknown” until it’s “known”. Specially if you are a pre-dent, you have many “unknown” years in cost of d school ahead of you. Even during dental school, you could still not know what your sophomore, junior and senior years cost would look like. You can certainly estimate, but you could easily find yourself well above your threshold too, unless you focused on the 7 cheapest of the 14 programs that you wish to apply, and you apply them now (in 2020-2021 cycle)..

2. Even if you graduate with $400k in student loans, which would be viewed as a good level of debt in terms of 5 years from now, you can’t rule out the possibility of specializing or 1 yr in GPR/AEGD residency in your future. Unless you are completely set on general dentistry, and want to work straight out of school, you could easily be looking at an additional $400k plus interest in ortho, perio, Endo residency cost 7-8 yrs from now. Most Pedo and all OS residencies would pay you with no additional debt, but you are just leaving a lot of “unknown” options up in the air as a pre-dent. So you could be looking at least $750-900k in student loans from pre-dent level to specialist level, if you applied and got in somewhere this year. The interest on the loans during school and residency are usually what balloons the debt quickly.

3. Assuming you graduated from DS as a general dentist and wasted no time to see your first patient, and with $400k under your belt, the question you should be asking yourself “today” should be - “how much will my monthly student loan repayments take a bite out of my monthly net take home income?”. Skipping all the long calculations (single status taxes, cost of living, etc), your net take home during your first yr, 2nd and probably 3rd yr of an associate position in an urban area will likely be close to $7k a month. If you choose the longest student loan repayment plan, your monthly payments will be about $3k a month. So you will be left with about $4k a month for rent, utilities, health insurance, car, etc. And with the historically stagnant income of a new dentist, that $4k/month today will feel like about $3k a month in 5-6 yrs as a new dentist - because of inflation, a concept that applies to everyone that makes an income.

If you understand the above 3 factors before applying and accepting a dental school, you are well ahead of your pre-dental peers in your decision making process.


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[batman12345]

There are 3 of things that could be missing and are not being considered from the basis of your $400k threshold:

1. All current and “known” tuition and cost of attendance fees are only good for 12 months. After that, tuition and cost will go up each year at every dental school - and that cost is “unknown” until it’s “known”. Specially if you are a pre-dent, you have many “unknown” years in cost of d school ahead of you. Even during dental school, you could still not know what your sophomore, junior and senior years cost would look like. You can certainly estimate, but you could easily find yourself well above your threshold too, unless you focused on the 7 cheapest of the 14 programs that you wish to apply, and you apply them now (in 2020-2021 cycle)..

2. Even if you graduate with $400k in student loans, which would be viewed as a good level of debt in terms of 5 years from now, you can’t rule out the possibility of specializing or 1 yr in GPR/AEGD residency in your future. Unless you are completely set on general dentistry, and want to work straight out of school, you could easily be looking at an additional $400k plus interest in ortho, perio, Endo residency cost 7-8 yrs from now. Most Pedo and all OS residencies would pay you with no additional debt, but you are just leaving a lot of “unknown” options up in the air as a pre-dent. So you could be looking at least $750-900k in student loans from pre-dent level to specialist level, if you applied and got in somewhere this year. The interest on the loans during school and residency are usually what balloons the debt quickly.

3. Assuming you graduated from DS as a general dentist and wasted no time to see your first patient, and with $400k under your belt, the question you should be asking yourself “today” should be - “how much will my monthly student loan repayments take a bite out of my monthly net take home income?”. Skipping all the long calculations (single status taxes, cost of living, etc), your net take home during your first yr, 2nd and probably 3rd yr of an associate position in an urban area will likely be close to $7k a month. If you choose the longest student loan repayment plan, your monthly payments will be about $3k a month. So you will be left with about $4k a month for rent, utilities, health insurance, car, etc. And with the historically stagnant income of a new dentist, that $4k/month today will feel like about $3k a month in 5-6 yrs as a new dentist - because of inflation, a concept that applies to everyone that makes an income.

If you understand the above 3 factors before applying and accepting a dental school, you are well ahead of your pre-dental peers in your decision making process.


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To your first factor, and @0Mik3cho threshold, it’s IMO a decent threshold. You realize looking at schools total COA that decreasing the max you are willing to take out really limits the schools you can apply to. Setting a limit to say 300k will leave you with such a small amount of schools, all of which will be public in state schools that are highly competitive and don’t accept out of state residents. Your chances of gaining even one acceptance drop drastically and odds are you won’t obtain one.

To your second factor, I would hope people would rather not go into one of these specialties if it would cost 300-400k extra...how many more people want to be in the situation of nearly one million dollars in student loans?

To your third factor, most dentists with high student loan debt would go on an IBR program regardless, so they will never be faced with a 3k monthly payment, unless their income reaches the over 300k level, which at that point the burden of their student loan monthly payment will still be minuscule. As long as IBR programs exist, students will not have to face the full force of those student loans.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

students will not have to face the full force of those student loans.

...until they have to pay the taxes for their forgiven student loan balance. Then they will learn how “friendly” the IRS can be.

Big Hoss

 

[GoDental101]

To your third factor, most dentists with high student loan debt would go on an IBR program regardless, so they will never be faced with a 3k monthly payment, unless their income reaches the over 300k level, which at that point the burden of their student loan monthly payment will still be minuscule. As long as IBR programs exist, students will not have to face the full force of those student loans.

They say ignorance is bliss...the problem with how your looking at it is that paying the percentage required by IBR will not bring the total amount down on your loan so when the time comes for that sum total to be “forgiven” you will owe the IRS a ton of money. Which is not a good position to be in...it would be smarter to pay down the debt quicker atleast at the beginning (get it down to like 200k or so before going on the IBR) so that the interest accumulating is not on such a huge amount.

 

[Cold Front]

...until they have to pay the taxes for their forgiven student loan balance. Then they will learn how “friendly” the IRS can be.

Big Hoss

Absolutely. No good deed shall go unpunished. The government will give a blank check for student loans, even give favorable repayment plans.... but no borrower should assume the government and their servicers care about where and how you get the money. One way or the other, they will get their money - legally.

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[batman12345]

...until they have to pay the taxes for their forgiven student loan balance. Then they will learn how “friendly” the IRS can be.

Big Hoss

Just kicking that can 25 years down the road

They say ignorance is bliss...the problem with how your looking at it is that paying the percentage required by IBR will not bring the total amount down on your loan so when the time comes for that sum total to be “forgiven” you will owe the IRS a ton of money. Which is not a good position to be in...it would be smarter to pay down the debt quicker atleast at the beginning (get it down to like 200k or so before going on the IBR) so that the interest accumulating is not on such a huge amount.

Oh I know that, but that’s how students see it. They really may not have another choice. Why not face the consequences in 25 years rather than now? But tbh, it’s not necessarily smart to aggressively pay down 500k to 200k then go on IBR. The math isn’t good on that and you end up paying more. You either go all out on aggressively paying it off, or go all in on IBR, save for the tax bomb on the side so in 25 years you’ll have enough to pay taxes...and you got a retirement fund. Issue is you actually have to save and invest. Best advice is just don’t go into 500k+ debt in the first place, unless you are guaranteed about to make at least 350k+ your first year

 

[P7898]

Just kicking that can 25 years down the road


Oh I know that, but that’s how students see it. They really may not have another choice. Why not face the consequences in 25 years rather than now? But tbh, it’s not necessarily smart to aggressively pay down 500k to 200k then go on IBR. The math isn’t good on that and you end up paying more. You either go all out on aggressively paying it off, or go all in on IBR, save for the tax bomb on the side so in 25 years you’ll have enough to pay taxes...and you got a retirement fund. Issue is you actually have to save and invest. Best advice is just don’t go into 500k+ debt in the first place, unless you are guaranteed about to make at least 350k+ your first year

I like to make smarter investments. If I can't get my yearly salary into the debt that I have to get into then it is not a good investment. For example. If a GP starts at $150k... you but your booty I am going to stay in the $150k debt range do or die.

 

[batman12345]

tax bomb my guy...bro do you insolvent?

Lol I know the tax bomb, I was purely talking about a recent graduates perspective Their first year out.

 

[batman12345]

I like to make smarter investments. If I can't get my yearly salary into the debt that I have to get into then it is not a good investment. For example. If a GP starts at $150k... you but your booty I am going to stay in the $150k debt range do or die.

Hmm 150k total debt for dental school is impossible without outside help nowadays. Even the cheapest school will be 200k. Debt to income ratio is a good indicator. 3 times debt compared to income? 4 times? Definitely bad investment.

 

[P7898]

Hmm 150k total debt for dental school is impossible without outside help nowadays. Even the cheapest school will be 200k. Debt to income ratio is a good indicator. 3 times debt compared to income? 4 times? Definitely bad investment.

Like I said, do or die. If I couldn't get it I wasn't going to dental school. Anything is possible my friend. I am the guy that looks at the price tag and negotiates down or try everything to find coupons.

 

[batman12345]

I am going to admit to you, I acutally want to re-read this thread. sometimes, my eyes tire and I don't read the nuance/hypothetical s and that's unfair to you. one min pal. you don't sound dumb at all, it's just I was thinking it's contrary to the preferred route.

Haha no worries man. Appreciate the honesty and niceness. I don’t hold a strong opinion, just really writing as I think through everyone’s suggestions. I really feel bad for anyone burdened by the student loan crisis, it’s sad.

What did you mean by the preferred route? Aggressively paying off the student loans? If so I definitely agree doing that.

 

[batman12345]

Like I said, do or die. If I couldn't get it I wasn't going to dental school. Anything is possible my friend. I am the guy that looks at the price tag and negotiates down or try everything to find coupons.

I agree, although I would increase your parameters. Texas schools average 220k and higher! I may be a little more risky than you, but 225-250k is still a worthwhile investment. (Basing that on the fact you’d be around a 1.5x debt to income ratio which can be very manageable)

 

[batman12345]

yea, it's just common knowledge to not accrue interest. Anyone raised with decent parents would advise them on credit card debt. Those aprs of like 28-29% mean nothing to a 17 year old until he doesn't pay his credit card bill the day before graduation his senior year of uni. I know people like this. It's just so foreign to me. I am raised in a south asian (punjabi) household. We literally uninstall if we have any consumer debt (i.e credit cards or financing a car).

Indians are a different level of cheap, more self-defacing and sadistic our frugality is, but it pays to be keen on your finances. However, we definitely aren't all like this, but thank god my dad and uncle were very strict with us growing up

Trust me man, I can definitely relate. I know where ur coming from. But even great parents can struggle with credit card debt. Unfortunately financial literacy and knowledge isn’t as common. Some get sucked into the consumerism world of buying things they can’t afford and charging to cards. I don’t have exact stats for you but a large percentage of Americans today have credit card debt. I believe it’s over 50%. Car debt and student loan debt are also at all time highs. There’s a lot of psychology and studies that have shown why people fall prey to this. I educated myself and I’m so glad I learned now rather than at 30 or 40 years old.

 

[P7898]

I agree, although I would increase your parameters. Texas schools average 220k and higher! I may be a little more risky than you, but 225-250k is still a worthwhile investment. (Basing that on the fact you’d be around a 1.5x debt to income ratio which can be very manageable)

Agreed but with state school and grants and scholarship I am around $130k.

 

[batman12345]

question in these scenarios, what is the debt profile of the student or are we strictly talking dental debt. I really wonder how much prior debt is considered too much to continue the journey into the professional world. I knew NYUCD students hovering around 1 million in debt from undergrad, masters, delay for quite a while (5-6) years, then specializing back at nyucd were they can violate your orifices again. The kicker, they refuse to leave nyc (talking manhattan here) and move from their decent but cramped and overpriced murray hill/kips bay apts to somewhere on park. I know 3 idiot periodontists who did this. One was military. The other married richat that point, maybe you deserve the faith heading to you

That’s insane...I don’t think I ever considered whether they take into account undergrad debt as well and look at total or if they just look at dental school debt.

I’m tempted to say they look at total...and on average I believe an undergrad has 30k of loans so it may not drastically increase the numbers for a dental graduate?

But man...just racking on all kinds of bad debt. At that point you have so much student loan debt, probably car debt, credit card debt...I couldn’t imagine.

And lol NYC is nice to visit but that cost of living is ridiculous...and I much prefer a bigger space

 

[batman12345]

Agreed but with state school and grants and scholarship I am around $130k.

Yeah I’m hoping to find some grants and scholarships and hopefully qualify/apply for them...every dollar helps

you are totally right, i am aware of the stats and trust your word. the greatest one to me, or i thought it was, is that the subprime auto industry is supposed to go under soon. Barclays had issued most of these loans I believe, yet It won't be 2008-2009 levels at all, but it is scary to not have a car in an uncertain time were any advantage is great. Then again you save money, but sacrifice your transportation. Second hand car market is thriving and as a car guy, I love it. Best cars are old school cars from the 90s (luxury sedans) imo. the quirks make the car.

Haha maybe you can teach me cars...I know very little and I’ve been trying to study and learn. What I’ve learned so far: never buy new due to insane depreciation. I’m trying rn to learn how to buy used effectively and know the market value for a used car. I’ve realized I can get the same if not a much more reliable car used for a fraction of the price. Why 30k brand new when I could get a very reliable 15k used and pay cash? I’m still learning the basics though so I don’t know much.

No monthly debt payment for a car...a much better life.

 

[0Mik3cho]

There are 3 of things that could be missing and are not being considered from the basis of your $400k threshold:

1. All current and “known” tuition and cost of attendance fees are only good for 12 months. After that, tuition and cost will go up each year at every dental school - and that cost is “unknown” until it’s “known”. Specially if you are a pre-dent, you have many “unknown” years in cost of d school ahead of you. Even during dental school, you could still not know what your sophomore, junior and senior years cost would look like. You can certainly estimate, but you could easily find yourself well above your threshold too, unless you focused on the 7 cheapest of the 14 programs that you wish to apply, and you apply them now (in 2020-2021 cycle)..

2. Even if you graduate with $400k in student loans, which would be viewed as a good level of debt in terms of 5 years from now, you can’t rule out the possibility of specializing or 1 yr in GPR/AEGD residency in your future. Unless you are completely set on general dentistry, and want to work straight out of school, you could easily be looking at an additional $400k plus interest in ortho, perio, Endo residency cost 7-8 yrs from now. Most Pedo and all OS residencies would pay you with no additional debt, but you are just leaving a lot of “unknown” options up in the air as a pre-dent. So you could be looking at least $750-900k in student loans from pre-dent level to specialist level, if you applied and got in somewhere this year. The interest on the loans during school and residency are usually what balloons the debt quickly.

3. Assuming you graduated from DS as a general dentist and wasted no time to see your first patient, and with $400k under your belt, the question you should be asking yourself “today” should be - “how much will my monthly student loan repayments take a bite out of my monthly net take home income?”. Skipping all the long calculations (single status taxes, cost of living, etc), your net take home during your first yr, 2nd and probably 3rd yr of an associate position in an urban area will likely be close to $7k a month. If you choose the longest student loan repayment plan, your monthly payments will be about $3k a month. So you will be left with about $4k a month for rent, utilities, health insurance, car, etc. And with the historically stagnant income of a new dentist, that $4k/month today will feel like about $3k a month in 5-6 yrs as a new dentist - because of inflation, a concept that applies to everyone that makes an income.

If you understand the above 3 factors before applying and accepting a dental school, you are well ahead of your pre-dental peers in your decision making process.


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I really appreciate the detailed explanations. I’ll definitely keep them in mind.

To your second factor, I would hope people would rather not go into one of these specialties if it would cost 300-400k extra...how many more people want to be in the situation of nearly one million dollars in student loans?

I haven’t run the numbers but unless I can get rid of any pre-doc debt with something like HPSP, I don’t think I can justify specializing.

 

[2TH MVR]

never buy a new luxury car yea. depreciation is silly. every now and again though you can write it off right on your PC or s corp whatever. but find an accountant who is more big brained. he will guide you well. they make specialized accounts for us and they are good folk.

as for buying new, your money is well kept in a subaru or like cheaper cars toyota/hondas etc , once you go crossover/suv they will get up there. that's the trend. millennials dont really buy new cars or crossovers. If we own a car, it is def used or the hand-me-down. There are great, affordable cars (kia/hyundai have stepped it up). may even offer a 10 year warranty or so i can't recall if this still is true. but, be best buds with your accountant!

A subaru? Come on guys. You gotta live a little. Being a young boomer .... I grew up with cars. Cars were more than an appliance to get you from point A to B. But I get it. Now days people are just not that into cool cars. It also takes $$$ to have nice cars.

Here's my thoughts on car ownership. My dental specific longterm acct recommended that I lease my business cars through my C-Corp practice. Now. I did have 2 ortho practices at the time which made this easier. You can write off BUSINESS use .... not personal. But I wrote off maintenance, insurance, gas, etc. etc. So ... I leased some pretty cool cars. Why not? At the time ... I could afford it. YOLO.

Yes. Best to purchase expensive cars USED. I did this to obtain an expensive sportscar. I also had no intention of keeping the car longterm .... so best to buy used and save money. Same with your every day commuter cars. Save money and buy used.

Now. A caveat. If I plan to keep a car for a long time .... I buy BRAND NEW. That's just me.

I work Corp now ... so I purchased a cheap, inexpensive bland subcompact suv for the long commute I have. I work in some seedy areas ... so no need to draw attention and get car jacked. Once that little suv dies .... I'm looking at a small, inexpensive used electric car for commuter purposes.

 

[Adam_W]

I was going to hop on here and say 200-250K, and I saw someone had posted my video. That's so cool and super humbling!!

A good (oversimplified) rule of thumb is that if your student loan balance is 2x your income or more, you are better off doing REPAYE and saving for that huge tax bill.

400k at 6% on a ten year term is over 50K *after tax* per year.

 

[SkyMonkey]

I knew NYUCD students hovering around 1 million in debt from undergrad, masters, delay for quite a while (5-6) years, then specializing back at nyucd were they can violate your orifices again. The kicker, they refuse to leave nyc (talking manhattan here) and move from their decent but cramped and overpriced murray hill/kips bay apts to somewhere on park. I know 3 idiot periodontists who did this. One was military. The other married richat that point, maybe you deserve the faith heading to you

hahaha meanwhile all that NYU dental tuition going to pay the OMFS residents med school and 75k+ salary

 

[Trout_Bum]

Agreed but with state school and grants and scholarship I am around $130k.

Must be nice. My state school had at most a couple grants worth a couple hundred dollars and 1 half decent scholarship given one time to one student over the 4 years.

 

[AONLINE]

Must be nice. My state school had at most a couple grants worth a couple hundred dollars and 1 half decent scholarship given one time to one student over the 4 years.

1-2 long essays are required for the scholarships that worth a couple hundred dollars at my school, so I never bother. Heck, I got more from the COVID stimulus check than any of those scholarships.