How much do EC's matter for Med School?

[mushedcupcake]

So I'm a senior and I just realized I want to go to medical school and it's a little late to get 500 hours of volunteering at a hospital or 300 hours of clinical research experience. I have done undergraduate research for the past year and have been working at a biotech company in my internship this past summer. Of course I know I need to shadow several doctors to determine if this is really my field and I should definitely volunteer weekly at a local hospital. But if I have a very high GPA (4.0) and get a great MCAT (I have not taken the MCAT yet) score then how much more do I really have to do? In my mind I think I'll struggle in med school if I don't keep my GPA up and get a great MCAT score since if I can't achieve those things I don't think I'll have good enough study skills. I just get overwhelmed by how much stuff so many people have managed to do to prepare for med school but yet have less than stellar GPA and MCAT scores and I'm wondering what is more important.

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[BlueLabel]

If you searched for 5 1/2 seconds you would probably have found the stickied thread titled

"Pre-Allo FAQ Series: Are EC's really required, and if so which ones?"

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=380160

 

[dirty630]

You don't need 500 hours of clinical experience. 100? Definitely. 200? Probably. You probably won't get in anywhere if you don't have any sort of clinical experience. Research, while helpful, just isn't enough.

 

[phunky]

A lot

/thread

 

[Planes2Doc]

A lot

/thread

Yeah, all too many people are putting on a huge dog and pony show for ADCOMs, doing activities that they never would have done otherwise.

Despite the SDNer's hate of the term "Cookie Cutter," most people on here are just that. Almost everyone checks off the same boxes. At the end of the day, it's your job to check the boxes. Of course it's nice if you can enjoy things, but for a lot of activities, this just isn't possible. Make sure you have something to talk about during interviews and have a long commitment (greater than a year, and don't quit right after submitting AMCAS), that's what matters.

 

[mcloaf]

A lot

/thread

qft.

 

[circulus vitios]

I received 6 DO interviews and 1 MD interview with just 50 hours each of volunteering, shadowing, and tutoring.

 

[gumdrops]

Honestly, it sounds like people are penalized more for what they didn't do and rewarded less for what they did do. EC's that did help my friends were Teach for America, being published in Nature, college-level athletics, etc. When I say "helped," that means that it was openly stated at their interviews that they were invited on the basis of those accomplishments.

 

[ChemEngMD]

If you don't have leadership experience then you can kiss a good portion of the top schools goodbye

 

[Planes2Doc]

Honestly, it sounds like people are penalized more for what they didn't do and rewarded less for what they did do. EC's that did help my friends were Teach for America, being published in Nature, college-level athletics, etc. When I say "helped," that means that it was openly stated at their interviews that they were invited on the basis of those accomplishments.

Exactly! That's why when people are deciding which EC option will look better, I tell them that it won't matter. Applicants are expected to do them, and ADCOMs have seen these same activities over and over again. So at the end of the day, most of these ECs don't make you look good, they just prevent you from looking bad.

Some things are more "unique" than others, but it's usually a stronger form of the same ol' box checking. My girlfriend is a teacher, and knows people who did TFA so they could get their foot in the door to the highest paying districts in Chicago, not because they actually cared about these communities. This is where some pre-meds are doing things like TFA, starting their own non-profits, and other things that require more effort, but were done solely for medical school admissions.

 

[GoPelicans]

If you don't have leadership experience then you can kiss a good portion of the top schools goodbye

Crap like this is why I wish more of the top schools would pre-screen secondaries. If I have no shot at your school, please tell me before I spend a bunch of hours crafting a perfect secondary essay.

I think I'm still just bitter about getting rejected from U Chicago 20 minutes after submitting my secondary.

 

[Goro]

Looks like you're going to need a gap year if you're seriously interested in Medicine.

Here's the deal (I need to make a sticky on this): You need to show AdComs that you know what you're getting into, and show off your altruistic, humanism side. We need to know that you're going to like being around sick or injuired people for the next 40 years.


We're also not looking for merely for good medical students, we're looking for people who will make good doctors, and 4.0 GPA robots are a dime-a-dozen.

I've seen plenty of posts here from high GPA/high MCAT candidates who were rejected because they had little patient contact experience.

Not all volunteering needs to be in a hosptial. Think hospice, nursing homes, rehab facilities, camps for sick children, or clinics. Check out your local houses of worship for volunteer opportuinities.

So I'm a senior and I just realized I want to go to medical school and it's a little late to get 500 hours of volunteering at a hospital or 300 hours of clinical research experience. I have done undergraduate research for the past year and have been working at a biotech company in my internship this past summer. Of course I know I need to shadow several doctors to determine if this is really my field and I should definitely volunteer weekly at a local hospital. But if I have a very high GPA (4.0) and get a great MCAT (I have not taken the MCAT yet) score then how much more do I really have to do? In my mind I think I'll struggle in med school if I don't keep my GPA up and get a great MCAT score since if I can't achieve those things I don't think I'll have good enough study skills. I just get overwhelmed by how much stuff so many people have managed to do to prepare for med school but yet have less than stellar GPA and MCAT scores and I'm wondering what is more important.

 

[Planes2Doc]

Looks like you're going to need a gap year if you're seriously interested in Medicine.

Here's the deal (I need to make a sticky on this): You need to show AdComs that you know what you're getting into, and show off your altruistic, humanism side. We need to know that you're going to like being around sick or injuired people for the next 40 years.


We're also not looking for merely for good medical students, we're looking for people who will make good doctors, and 4.0 GPA robots are a dime-a-dozen.

I've seen plenty of posts here from high GPA/high MCAT candidates who were rejected because they had little patient contact experience.

Not all volunteering needs to be in a hosptial. Think hospice, nursing homes, rehab facilities, camps for sick children, or clinics. Check out your local houses of worship for volunteer opportuinities.

I don't understand this reasoning... You are saying that with a lack of such ECs, you would reject this applicant, but if the applicant "beefs up" their ECs during a gap year, they will be accepted?

If the applicant wasn't showing a humanistic altruistic side initially as a pre-med, then how do they suddenly become more humanistic and altruistic after doing these required activities? What has changed? It's not like they were genuine in the first place doing these activities long before medical school. They are just as much of a robot that you're trying to avoid as the next pre-med down the assembly line.

 

[freakingoutabit]

I don't understand this reasoning... You are saying that with a lack of such ECs, you would reject this applicant, but if the applicant "beefs up" their ECs during a gap year, they will be accepted?

If the applicant wasn't showing a humanistic altruistic side initially as a pre-med, then how do they suddenly become more humanistic and altruistic after doing these required activities? What has changed? It's not like they were genuine in the first place doing these activities long before medical school. They are just as much of a robot that you're trying to avoid as the next pre-med down the assembly line.

If you were an ADCOM, wouldn't you admit the student who showed an interest in helping people, even if it was possible that s/he was only helping people to boost his/her resume, over the student who showed no interest in helping people at all? There's no way to know whether someone is actually altruistic or whether they're motivated solely by an end goal (or a mixture of both, which is probably the case for most pre-meds), but I don't see what's gained by admitting people with no demonstrated desire for volunteering or charity work.

And maybe this is too idealistic, but I'd like to believe that people who volunteer for ulterior motives will see how important and meaningful their volunteerism is and will continue to do it in some capacity, even when their resumes no longer need it. Just because someone initially volunteers to boost their med school application doesn't mean that they won't become kinder, more compassionate doctors (and people) for having done it.

 

[circulus vitios]

If you were an ADCOM, wouldn't you admit the student who showed an interest in helping people, even if it was possible that s/he was only helping people to boost their resume, over the student who showed no interest in helping people at all? There's no way to know whether someone is actually altruistic or whether they're motivated solely by an end goal (or a mixture of both, which is probably the case for most pre-meds), but I don't see what's gained by admitting people with no demonstrated desire for volunteering or charity work.

And maybe this is too idealistic, but I'd like to believe that people who volunteer for ulterior motives will see how important and meaningful their volunteerism is and will continue to do it in some capacity, even when their resumes no longer need it. Just because someone initially volunteers to boost their med school application doesn't mean that they won't become kinder, more compassionate doctors (and people) for having done it.

If I was on an admissions committee, I would fill the class with painfully average people because I hate try-hards.

 

[Planes2Doc]

If you were an ADCOM, wouldn't you admit the student who showed an interest in helping people, even if it was possible that s/he was only helping people to boost their resume, over the student who showed no interest in helping people at all? There's no way to know whether someone is actually altruistic or whether they're motivated solely by an end goal (or a mixture of both, which is probably the case for most pre-meds), but I don't see what's gained by admitting people with no demonstrated desire for volunteering or charity work.

And maybe this is too idealistic, but I'd like to believe that people who volunteer for ulterior motives will see how important and meaningful their volunteerism is and will continue to do it in some capacity, even when their resumes no longer need it. Just because someone initially volunteers to boost their med school application doesn't mean that they won't become kinder, more compassionate doctors (and people) for having done it.

I would rather have blatantly honest people than those that faked things. I've talked to all too many classmates that told me how much they dreaded those ECs and were glad that they dropped them. Altruism is a rare trait. I only met a handful of genuinely altruistic people so far in my lifetime, yet 90% of pre-meds are altruistic. Unfortunately, since the underserved are still underserved (the very people these pre-meds are absolutely dying to serve), it shows that many people are faking it.

I don't care if someone volunteers to get experience and then is honest about it. I hate it though when people put up a facade, pretending to be someone they are not. They are lying about something that is so highly valued. In fact, while some may embellish it, a number of "altruistic" applicants likely gamed the system of flat-out fabricated their experiences.

In response to the last thing you wrote, of course you can hope that something good will come out of it, and that people will change. But in reality, it's hard to make people change. Very few will. Oh wait, I take that back... Pre-meds are special. They go from never having cared about others in this way to suddenly becoming Mother Teresa virtually overnight! Amazing!

 

[freakingoutabit]

But surely most people, if they were being completely honest, would say something like, "I enjoy helping people and want to do it, though sometimes paying bills/spending time with family/advancing in my career/etc. gets in the way." Or maybe if you asked most doctors, they would say, "I love helping people, but I realize that I can be a bigger help by working, earning a decent living, and donating what I can to the charities that are important to me."

I just can't imagine that many people have no interest in helping others. People aren't either completely altruistic or completely selfish; it's not that black and white.

 

[GoPelicans]

I really hate the stigma attached to doing things 'for the sake of the application'... we are ALL doing things for the sake of the application . I think if I was ever an interviewer, I would be interested in the story behind WHY you chose the specific activities you chose. EG I volunteer tutor for struggling high school kids because I struggled a lot in high school too, so I empathize with how difficult it can be for some. I bet this kind of question would reveal a lot of blatantly artificial answers.

 

[circulus vitios]

But surely most people, if they were being completely honest, would say something like, "I enjoy helping people and want to do it, though sometimes paying bills/spending time with family/advancing in my career/etc. gets in the way." Or maybe if you asked most doctors, they would say, "I love helping people, but I realize that I can be a bigger help by working, earning a decent living, and donating what I can to the charities that are important to me."

I just can't imagine that many people have no interest in helping others. People aren't either completely altruistic or completely selfish; it's not that black and white.

About one-third of physicians never volunteer. http://www.medscape.com/features/slideshow/lifestyle/2012/public Look at schools on MSAR, and >85% of med school matriculants volunteer. Hmm, I wonder why there is such a disparity between these two figures.

 

[freakingoutabit]

About one-third of physicians never volunteer. http://www.medscape.com/features/slideshow/lifestyle/2012/public Look at schools on MSAR, and >85% of med school matriculants volunteer. Hmm, I wonder why there is such a disparity between these two figures.

That's actually pretty good when you consider that only a quarter of the general population volunteers. Maybe selecting for altruistic applicants, despite the flaws in the process, works better than you think.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/volun.nr0.htm

 

[circulus vitios]

That's actually pretty good when you consider that only a quarter of the general population volunteers. Maybe selecting for altruistic applicants, despite the flaws in the process, works better than you think.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/volun.nr0.htm

No, not really.

 

[Planes2Doc]

That's actually pretty good when you consider that only a quarter of the general population volunteers. Maybe selecting for altruistic applicants, despite the flaws in the process, works better than you think.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/volun.nr0.htm

But what counts as volunteering? Remember that pre-meds are taking part in long commitments where they usually volunteer for a few hours weekly. On the other hand, someone who volunteers for the sheer joy of it might volunteer at the soup kitchen on Thanksgiving, volunteer at a cancer walk, or do similar one time or extremely sporadic activities would still consider themselves a "volunteer."

This is a far cry from the amount of volunteer work that genuinely altruistic people, or that pre-meds at least claim too. If a pre-med tried applying with only sporadic volunteering (which I actually enjoyed a lot), then they would have a very weak application in my opinion, especially considering that AMCAS asks specifically for hours per week.

 

[freakingoutabit]

I'm not arguing that med schools should only admit students with thousands of hours of volunteering, or that more volunteering = better applicant. I'm only saying that some demonstrated altruism should be part of the equation, as it's the only way to predict whether that applicant would be willing to volunteer/advocate/do pro bono work later in their careers. It's obviously not perfect, but it's better than nothing.

I also think it's totally reasonable to expect that a person's ability to volunteer will drop after undergrad. Undergrad is EASY, and there is plenty of time for outside activities. To some (admittedly limited) extent, the activities a person chooses tell ADCOMs something about that person's character. Maybe a volunteer-happy applicant won't have time for much volunteer work when he's an attending, but if he occasionally does a surgery pro bono, that's a much better outcome than a surgeon who doesn't recognize the need to help others at all.

As an aside, AMCAS changed the hours/week thing. Now you just put down total hours spent doing something, not hours per week.

No, not really.

 

[gumdrops]

Crap like this is why I wish more of the top schools would pre-screen secondaries. If I have no shot at your school, please tell me before I spend a bunch of hours crafting a perfect secondary essay.

I think I'm still just bitter about getting rejected from U Chicago 20 minutes after submitting my secondary.

WTF U of Chicago. They should just pre-screen but...all hail the mighty dolla dolla.