How Much Do Medical School Rankings Matter?

[apooji]

Hello SDN!

I am currently a Pre-Med student strongly considering a career in military medicine and today
came across an opportunity at my undergraduate institution that allows students to commit to our
medical school 2 years early on scholarship (with free MCAT preparation as well), so long as students
commit to military service as well. The program sounds wonderful, right up my alley, as it is essentially analogous
to applying to medical school and applying to HPSP, but you instead get your medical school decision
during the fall of your junior year. Here's the kicker: our medical school is not ranked incredibly highly (top 100
but not by much), and I'm curious if I should instead just consider applying to a higher ranked medical school
and then to HPSP. When applying to residencies (especially military rankings), to what degree do medical school
rankings matter, and will choosing a lower ranked medical school during my undergraduate degree hinder my
ability to find staff positions in prestigious hospitals or possibly medical colleges in the future?

Thanks in advance!

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[Chibucks15]

Search on here. They’re everywhere

 

[DrStephenStrange]

School rankings only matter to neurotic pre-meds. Whatever medical school you graduate from (and yes, even DO schools) you're still a doctor as long you get into a residency after. Better yet with Military residency match you're pretty much guaranteed a spot after you graduate medical school.

 

[calipremed5768]

^clearly it’s not just “neurotic premeds” if top residencies are filled with people from top schools

 

[907914]

In terms of residency matching, what I tend to see represented in here and match lists is along these lines:

T5> T20 > basically every other MD > DO

 

[longhaul3]

It depends primarily on your ambitions and the specialties you are interested in. Med school rankings matter—you shouldn't believe anyone who says they don't—but there are ways that people in the field "rank" aside from the year-to-year fluctuations of US News. The top schools will set you up on the easiest path to the top residences in the top specialties, but you can conceivably match into any specialty from any MD school. DO schools are a different story as DO graduates do not match well in the most competitive specialties.

 

[Chibucks15]

^clearly it’s not just “neurotic premeds” if top residencies are filled with people from top schools

No it is just neurotic pre med. the reason these residencies are filled with top schools it networking. Not because you went to a random school

Edit: think about it. Why would a 250 step score with a great app from one school beat out a less competitive from a top school? The reason they’re filled with top schools is because the students are more driven

 

[calipremed5768]

So you’re saying T20 students are just inherently better at networking? I’m guessing you mean that they have more opportunities to network which means that going to a T20 gives you a better shot at a top residency

 

[Chibucks15]

So you’re saying T20 students are just inherently better at networking? I’m guessing you mean that they have more opportunities to network which means that going to a T20 gives you a better shot at a top residency

I mean that should be evident? Like you have more known people? Idk what I’m saying it isn’t all it’s blown up to be. Nobody cares at all once you’re done

 

[Chibucks15]

Ok but until you get to the point where you’re “done”, school prestige does matter quite a lot

Whatever floats your boat

 

[907914]

Ok but until you get to the point where you’re “done”, school prestige does matter quite a lot

If you just want to be a doctor doing doctor things, it seems prestige of school or residency would not matter. If you want to be in academics, it would seem prestige always matters.

 

[Kracin]

Harvard has step 1 average in the mid 240s. That means there are a good amount of their class in the 220s-240s. Look at their match list - and you will have a tough time figuring out who they are.

School ranking DOES matter when it comes to residency match. If you want to do academia or a competitive specialty, going to a better school is helpful. People from lower ranked schools can do well for themselves, but school prestige is important.

T5 > T20 > "Top" state schools > other US MD schools > DO >>> Carrib

 

[calipremed5768]

Prestige ranking:

Rhodes scholarship > Yale law school > Harvard med school >McKinsey/Bain/BCG > Stanford/Harvard business school > Goldman Sachs/JP Morgan investment banking > FAANG tech entry level

Thoughts?

 

[Moko]

Prestige does play a role in the residency match and in academia. However, while having prestige is helpful, having it is neither sufficient nor necessary to match into a good residency, competitive specialty, and/or secure a good job offer. It does help create a buffer though for potentially missteps (e.g lower Step scores, fewer publications, etc).

 

[907914]

It does help create a buffer though for potentially missteps

BIG MOOD right here.

 

[Engrailed]

Prestige ranking:

Rhodes scholarship > Yale law school > Harvard med school >McKinsey/Bain/BCG > Stanford/Harvard business school > Goldman Sachs/JP Morgan investment banking > FAANG tech entry level

Thoughts?

Curious how you came to this conclusion @calipremed5768 haha

Inquiring minds want to know

 

[CidHighwind]

People say it doesn’t matter because we don’t want to make you all more neurotic. The reality is that it absolutely does matter, even if someone from a top 20 or so school does worse (by a good amount) than you on their boards, you’d never know from where they interview. PDs say as much, and I would say there’s more of a gradient than top 20 and then everyone else, since PDs group everyone in the top 40 together.

The reality is though, if you turn down this offer there’s no guarantee that any medical school will take you. So IMO I would just take it.

 

[CaptainPoopyPants]

The doctors I work with say school rankings don't matter in medicine the way they do in law school. But also, it shouldn't matter to you at all if you're going into the military. They're going to pick your residency for you.

 

[deleted966164]

Curious how you came to this conclusion @calipremed5768 haha

Dude... don’t go there... it’s a dark and scary place...

 

[907914]

The doctors I work with say school rankings don't matter in medicine the way they do in law school. But also, it shouldn't matter to you at all if you're going into the military. They're going to pick your residency for you.

There is still a military match that operates very much the same as civilian match. In recent years they have announced they will be restructuring to focus more on deployable specialties, but it is still the match and it is still very mu

 

[calipremed5768]

Saturday night and Making prestige lists on an Internet forum. Where did it all go wrong?

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Once again, everyone gets hung up on prestige and top tier programs. If research is your life or you want to be a dept chair and/ or program director, your pedigree will certainly be a factor. Remember, if you matriculate to any med school, you are most likely in the top 20% of all MCAT takers. If you are in an elite academic environment, you are most likely 2 standard deviation from the mean of med school matruculants. So about 98% of all med school grads would not have the app quality to be considered for a top tier program. Yet this topic is pervasive on SDN, like you will be some kind of failure if you didnt graduate from an Ivy of top tier school. Its ridiculous. This bigotry persists in part by the graduates of said programs who often wont wait 30 secs after meeting you before they let you know where they trained. Universities have research unique to their institutions. Neurosurg at Mayo is different than CT surgery at the Cleveland clinic, etc. If you are in Cleveland and have a patient with CVID, common variable immune deficiency, you may want to send the patient to Duke for best and latest treatment recommendations. It doesnt mean they are better, just have seen more patients and have some study data. The Gunner mentality just doesnt go away in some folks. I've seen the gambit in grads from top tier programs from amazing to boobs. Premed and med school grads should focus more on being excellent in all ways than on what their diploma or residency certificate says. It will take more than a piece of paper to impress me.

 

[calipremed5768]

Aiming for prestige is a compensation mechanism but I see how people become obsessed with it. Basically it’s like an addiction. You go to an elite prep school just to get into a top undergrad just to get into a top medical school just to get into a top residency etc. The delusion that external validation can fix internal damage never goes away

 

[getdown]

I agree with Angus. I couldn't have said it better myself. The individual determines their success, not the school name. Like someone else above mentioned, the school name gives you a buffer and leeway for red flags but once you're in you got to do the legwork. I've mentioned in previous posts that we had a kid from Harvard who washed out and a kid from U of Hawaii who took home almost every award during graduation.

Also, unless you actually hold multiple acceptances from a Top 5, 20, whatever and have the luxury to choose this is ultimately an exercise in futility. Most med students usually only hold a single acceptance.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

The reason I say it doesn't matter is because at the end of it all, it won't make a difference in your potential job prospects and income whether you went to Harvard medical school and trained at NYU IM residency program or went to LUCOM and trained from a middle of nowhere community IM residency programs.

Edit: it would probably make a difference for potential fellowships you can match into, but for straight IM the difference is minimal if any. I hope you get the point.

 

[calipremed5768]

You do realize that some people have more than just income in mind when thinking about med school/residency

 

[907914]

The reason I say it doesn't matter is because at the end of it all, it won't make a difference in your potential job prospects and income whether you went to Harvard medical school and trained at NYU IM residency program or went to LUCOM and trained from a middle of nowhere community IM residency programs.

*unless you want to work in a faculty level position at an academic institution.

So for 98% of physicians/medical students, prestige won’t matter

 

[deleted966164]

Somewhere here, in between the d**k measuring contest of comparing MCAT scores and GPAs, peeps lost track of their future patients.

None of us has a med school acceptance in hand but some are asking what it takes to be a med school dean or how to match to plastic surg.

Go on amazon, get a suture practice kit - this will be way more useful than another thread here...

 

[Engrailed]

Somewhere here, in between the d**k measuring contest of comparing MCAT scores and GPAs, peeps lost track of their future patients.

None of us has a med school acceptance in hand but some are asking what it takes to be a med school dean or how to match to plastic surg.

Go on amazon, get a suture practice kit - this will be way more useful than another thread here...

on point!!

 

[blurb_123]

The reason I say it doesn't matter is because at the end of it all, it won't make a difference in your potential job prospects and income whether you went to Harvard medical school and trained at NYU IM residency program or went to LUCOM and trained from a middle of nowhere community IM residency programs.

Edit: it would probably make a difference for potential fellowships you can match into, but for straight IM the difference is minimal if any. I hope you get the point.

A lot of people here legitimately want to do academic medicine. "A doctor is still a doctor" isn't everyone's mindset either.

Better schools open more doors for match, or so I've been told by residents and physicians. Now if you want to debate the quality of training difference in residency, that's another issue entirely.

Saying prestige "doesn't matter to anyone but premeds" is akin to saying "it doesn't matter where you go to college when you apply to med school". It would probably make people feel better if it was true because it would be more "fair" (I wish I could double quote that word), but from what I've read/heard from residents, doctors, etc. and match lists I've seen, it certainly matters. It's not at the top of the list, but surely one would agree that going to a very well-regarded school would help with residency prospects.

Which is what OP is getting at.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

You do realize that some people have more than just income in mind when thinking about med school/residency

Well if income and better job prospects is not at the center of these discussions then what's the point of even starting them other than supporting someone's ego and neuroticism.

 

[CidHighwind]

Once again, everyone gets hung up on prestige and top tier programs. If research is your life or you want to be a dept chair and/ or program director, your pedigree will certainly be a factor. Remember, if you matriculate to any med school, you are most likely in the top 20% of all MCAT takers. If you are in an elite academic environment, you are most likely 2 standard deviation from the mean of med school matruculants. So about 98% of all med school grads would not have the app quality to be considered for a top tier program. Yet this topic is pervasive on SDN, like you will be some kind of failure if you didnt graduate from an Ivy of top tier school. Its ridiculous. This bigotry persists in part by the graduates of said programs who often wont wait 30 secs after meeting you before they let you know where they trained. Universities have research unique to their institutions. Neurosurg at Mayo is different than CT surgery at the Cleveland clinic, etc. If you are in Cleveland and have a patient with CVID, common variable immune deficiency, you may want to send the patient to Duke for best and latest treatment recommendations. It doesnt mean they are better, just have seen more patients and have some study data. The Gunner mentality just doesnt go away in some folks. I've seen the gambit in grads from top tier programs from amazing to boobs. Premed and med school grads should focus more on being excellent in all ways than on what their diploma or residency certificate says. It will take more than a piece of paper to impress me.

I agree with a lot of this, but it’s ironic that you only name the names of prestigious institutions in your post about downplaying prestige .

A lot of people here legitimately want to do academic medicine. "A doctor is still a doctor" isn't everyone's mindset either.

Better schools open more doors for match, or so I've been told by residents and physicians. Now if you want to debate the quality of training difference in residency, that's another issue entirely.

Saying prestige "doesn't matter to anyone but premeds" is akin to saying "it doesn't matter where you go to college when you apply to med school". It would probably make people feel better if it was true because it would be more "fair" (I wish I could double quote that word), but from what I've read/heard from residents, doctors, etc. and match lists I've seen, it certainly matters. It's not at the top of the list, but surely one would agree that going to a very well-regarded school would help with residency prospects.

Which is what OP is getting at.

There’s two sides of it. I think what people are getting at is that getting into ANY medical school is a huge accomplishment, yet people here act like there’s only a few schools worth going to. Going to a well-regraded medical school does help, especially if you want to do something “competitive”, but being upset because you got into a top 100 medical school instead of a top 20 should get you slapped!

 

[907914]

Well if income and better job prospects is not at the center of these discussions then what's the point of even starting them other than supporting someone's ego and neuroticism.

I am sure I am not the only one who is applying predominantly to ‘top schools’ simply because my stats matched so I had the opportunity, they have the best financial aid and they have that “buffer” in case I don’t perform as well as I would like to. Prestige and competitiveness of match list mattered zilch when I was finalizing my school list, it was literally about money and some built in wiggle room.

Anyone else? Like, it isn’t all about academic medicine and job prospects...

 

[deleted966164]

Sometimes it feels like I’m the only one here who wants to be an ER doc in a rural area and push Narcan all day long... lolz #JobSecurity

 

[blurb_123]

There’s two sides of it. I think what people are getting at is that getting into ANY medical school is a huge accomplishment, yet people here act like there’s only a few schools worth going to. It does help, especially if you want to do something “competitive”, but being upset because you got into a top 100 medical school instead of a top 20 should get you slapped!

I think anyone belittling another's accomplishment is insensitive and inane, which is what you are alluding to. Everyone has different goals too and they all deserve respect.

But it isn't the end all be all. Some people are aiming "higher". It's not a slight on anyone else. It's simply the reality, and I'd say it's often for good reasons (not just money, wanting clout/respect, etc.) like legitimately wanting to research certain things, access to resources/certain mentors, etc.
It just depends on what you want to do and where you want to go.

Well if income and better job prospects is not at the center of these discussions then what's the point of even starting them other than supporting someone's ego and neuroticism.

My guy, these are your words. Not anyone else's.

Not everyone is concerned primarily with money/better job prospects. Going to a better school can sometimes mean better opportunities. Painting people with a broad brush and equating prestige with ego/neuroticism is a slippery slope.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Alot of people may legitimately be interested in academics medicine, sadly alot of people wont be in academic medicine, as the vast majority of physicians are not in academics. Pedigree matters for the reasons I posted above, but is not paramount for the vast majority of physicians. The whole topic is over emphasized. Not everyone is or can be a dept chair, program director, or researcher from a top 20 program.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I agree with a lot of this, but it’s ironic that you only name the names of prestigious institutions in your post about downplaying prestige .



There’s two sides of it. I think what people are getting at is that getting into ANY medical school is a huge accomplishment, yet people here act like there’s only a few schools worth going to. It does help, especially if you want to do something “competitive”, but being upset because you got into a top 100 medical school instead of a top 20 should get you slapped!

It's not ironic, its merely illustrative. You should know she difference

 

[CidHighwind]

It's not ironic, its merely illustrative. You should know she difference

You can’t illistrate with non world-renowned hospitals?

Alot of people may legitimately be interested in academics medicine, sadly alot of people wont be in academic medicine, as the vast majority of physicians are not in academics. Pedigree matters for the reasons I posted above, but is not paramount for the vast majority of physicians. The whole topic is over emphasized. Not everyone is or can be a dept chair, program director, or researcher from a top 20 program.

You don’t even have to care about prestige is the thing. If someone wants to do ortho or nsgy etc, they’ll have an easier road to that coming from a “better” school, even if they end up working in the community. I feel like many people cite academics, but it can help one in the private sector as well.

 

[CaptainPoopyPants]

There is still a military match that operates very much the same as civilian match. In recent years they have announced they will be restructuring to focus more on deployable specialties, but it is still the match and it is still very mu

Yeah, I stopped believing that the military gives you choices a long time ago. They give you the illusion of choice. But if they need a specific residency filled, they're going to find bodies to fill it.

 

[CaptainPoopyPants]

Aiming for prestige is a compensation mechanism but I see how people become obsessed with it. Basically it’s like an addiction. You go to an elite prep school just to get into a top undergrad just to get into a top medical school just to get into a top residency etc. The delusion that external validation can fix internal damage never goes away

It's moments like this when I'm no longer sure if Calipremed5768 is a troll or not. You fascinate me, sir.

 

[907914]

Yeah, I stopped believing that the military gives you choices a long time ago. They give you the illusion of choice. But if they need a specific residency filled, they're going to find bodies to fill it.

In the end it will always be “needs of the Army/Air Force-Navy” but it is less about that for the match. They have the exact same match system that non-military has, you just only apply to military residencies. The number of slots, number of locations, and timeline differ but you still get to select your residency in the same manner that civilian physicians do. The officer realm is far different than enlisted, friend. And medical military is FAR different than combat positions in culture and hierarchy.

 

[CaptainPoopyPants]

In the end it will always be “needs of the Army/Air Force-Navy” but it is less about that for the match. They have the exact same match system that non-military has, you just only apply to military residencies. The number of slots, number of locations, and timeline differ but you still get to select your residency in the same manner that civilian physicians do. The officer realm is far different than enlisted, friend. And medical military is FAR different than combat positions in culture and hierarchy.

I'm aware that they have a match system just as the civilian sector. I would still never trust them with such an important life decision because at the end of the day, you will be in whatever residency they decide they need you (assuming that you even do match instead of being made a GMO). That's the illusion of choice. Agree to disagree

But this is getting off topic. My main point for the OP was that whatever importance prestige has, it probably has even less of an impact with military residency matching.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Depends on what you want in a career. It can either matter a lot or very little. If you are doing the military it will matter even less because you’ll be in the military match and they don’t give two farts about prestige.

 

[KnightDoc]

It's moments like this when I'm no longer sure if Calipremed5768 is a troll or not. You fascinate me, sir.

I think it's posts like this that prove that he absolutely was trolling us with some of his other posts!

 

[907914]

I think it's posts like this that prove that he absolutely was trolling us with some of his other posts!

IDK...The quoted post real-talk vibes with a lot of what we see on here...

 

[KnightDoc]

IDK...The quoted post real-talk vibes with a lot of what we see on here...

I know, but check out some of his early gems.

 

[Cheeezcake]

IDK...The quoted post real-talk vibes with a lot of what we see on here...

When HYPSM SDNers feel the need to retake their 516, or forgo an acceptance to Mayo because they’re too good

 

[deleted804295]

I mean that should be evident? Like you have more known people? Idk what I’m saying it isn’t all it’s blown up to be. Nobody cares at all once you’re done

They're not better at networking. They just have more opportunities to network.

A person from a lower tiered med school would have to do external rotations and frequently travel in order to get connections in better residencies.

 

[deleted804295]

Once again, everyone gets hung up on prestige and top tier programs. If research is your life or you want to be a dept chair and/ or program director, your pedigree will certainly be a factor. Remember, if you matriculate to any med school, you are most likely in the top 20% of all MCAT takers. If you are in an elite academic environment, you are most likely 2 standard deviation from the mean of med school matruculants. So about 98% of all med school grads would not have the app quality to be considered for a top tier program. Yet this topic is pervasive on SDN, like you will be some kind of failure if you didnt graduate from an Ivy of top tier school. Its ridiculous. This bigotry persists in part by the graduates of said programs who often wont wait 30 secs after meeting you before they let you know where they trained. Universities have research unique to their institutions. Neurosurg at Mayo is different than CT surgery at the Cleveland clinic, etc. If you are in Cleveland and have a patient with CVID, common variable immune deficiency, you may want to send the patient to Duke for best and latest treatment recommendations. It doesnt mean they are better, just have seen more patients and have some study data. The Gunner mentality just doesnt go away in some folks. I've seen the gambit in grads from top tier programs from amazing to boobs. Premed and med school grads should focus more on being excellent in all ways than on what their diploma or residency certificate says. It will take more than a piece of paper to impress me.

Nobody in SDN says you're a failure if you don't graduate from a top tier med school. A patient literally does not care if their physician is from HMS or a low tiered med school.

What SDN does emphasize is the importance of residency choice. I just saw someone on SDN score fairly well on STEP 1 the other day have to use SOAP. For individuals who are interested in more competitive residencies, they're at a serious disadvantage going to a lower tier med school. They have to bust a-- on Step 1, then bust a-- with publications, then find time out of their already heavy schedules to network outside of their program.

If you go to a higher tier program you just have to do okay on step 1, do okay on publications, and get along well with the faculty at your program. No 12 hour days every day hauling a-- for you.

 

[907914]

bust a--

While I completely agree with everything in your post...is this a regional dialect/vernacular thing...? Because where I am from, “busting ass” means a loud fart.