How Much Do Medical School Rankings Matter?

[deleted804295]

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While I completely agree with everything in your post...is this a regional dialect/vernacular thing...? Because where I am from, “busting ass” means a loud fart.

Really? 🤣

It must be a regional thing lol

 

[Cornfed101]

If you can get into a “prestigious” medical school, then go for it. If you can’t it’s really not a big deal. Go to the med school you are accepted to and move on with your life

 

[deleted972488]

If you can get into a “prestigious” medical school, then go for it. If you can’t it’s really not a big deal. Go to the med school you are accepted to and move on with your life

Or if you get into a "prestigious" school and a less "prestigious" one that is cheaper, consider going to the cheaper one.

 

[Schadret]

[...]. A patient literally does not care if their physician is from HMS or a low tiered med school.

I doubt that is true. If a patient got to choose between 2 Dr's - one from Harvard Med and one from a school they've never really heard of (even if that is a top tier program), I bet most patients would pick the Harvard doctor.

 

[Engrailed]

I doubt that is true. If a patient got to choose between 2 Dr's - one from Harvard Med and one from a school they've never really heard of (even if that is a top tier program), I bet most patients would pick the Harvard doctor.

I second this. Just going beyond the fact that one school is more familiar, you hear of references all the time in pop culture as well.
“So and so doctor was a HYPSM educated grad who went to HYPSM med school and is now doing xyz” you see this reference too in law, business etc.
People in medicine will know that residency is just as important if not more, but to others, the name of the degree probably registers a lot more strongly.

 

[deleted972488]

I doubt that is true. If a patient got to choose between 2 Dr's - one from Harvard Med and one from a school they've never really heard of (even if that is a top tier program), I bet most patients would pick the Harvard doctor.

I’ve had a lot of doctors (as a patient) and I don’t even know what medical school any of them attended. That kind of thing doesn’t really come up in conversation or matter. I do know what institution they are currently affiliated with, though, and most of them probably had a relatively strong pedigree in order to end up there.

Edit: Looked it up. My oncologist did medical school and residency at a solidly "mid-tier" medical school and did his fellowship at a slightly higher-ranked institution. Now practices at a "top 10" medical school/institution. FWIW.

 

[deleted804295]

I second this. Just going beyond the fact that one school is more familiar, you hear of references all the time in pop culture as well.
“So and so doctor was a HYPSM grad who went to HYPSM med school and is now doing xyz” you see this reference too in law, business etc.
People in medicine will know that residency is just as important if not more, but to others, the name of the degree probably registers a lot more strongly.

Uh what? Maybe it's because I don't have any doctors in my network but I've literally never heard of anyone ranking doctors based on med school. Sure it might be a boost if one goes into private practice or writing and wants to make that tie marketable but patients by and large look at outcomes.

Must be something that only resonates with people in rich circles.

 

[Engrailed]

Uh what? Maybe it's because I don't have any doctors in my network but I've literally never heard of anyone ranking doctors based on med school. Sure it might be a boost if one goes into private practice or writing and wants to make that tie marketable but patients by and large look at outcomes.

Must be something that only resonates with people in rich circles.

Just from what I hear in the news or whatever. I dont have any doctors in my family or even those “prestigious schools”. But the ppl that I work with or ppl in my city do like to make it known with their alma mater sweatshirts, mugs what have you

 

[907914]

Must be something that only resonates with people in rich circles.

Ditto. I literally have not seen a doctor outside of ER/Urgent care in like 6 years and could care less where they were from. Are we supposed to have a network of physicians whom we compare?

 

[907914]

Just from what I hear in the news or whatever. I dont have any doctors in my family or even those “prestigious schools”. But the ppl that I work with or ppl in my city do like to make it known with their alma mater sweatshirts, mugs what have you

Are you from Boston? Not many places have a sufficient medical community for this to be apparent...

 

[ciestar]

Are you from Boston? Not many places have a sufficient medical community for this to be apparent...

Philadelphia is kinda like this with as many schools as it has, but few people know the difference between a doctor trained at Penn vs one trained at Drexel. Where the prestige kicks in is where you see this doctor.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

What you say might be true in general for many programs. Your friend who SOAPed, didnt play the Match Game well enough. A high Step score gets you a look. It's not a birth right to matching at a program. PDs have that resident for 3 plus years and dont want to hire unknowns or problems. I had this conversation several times when a lower stat student who auditioned with us. I knew them, they were a good worker and got along. I can teach this person, its my job. A higher stat student from elsewhere would not score as high with me. Many programs put a premium on knowing who they rank.

 

[993444]

Philadelphia is kinda like this with as many schools as it has, but few people know the difference between a doctor trained at Penn vs one trained at Drexel. Where the prestige kicks in is where you see this doctor.

Philly has 5 medical schools, correct?

 

[ciestar]

Philly has 5 medical schools, correct?

Yep. Drexel, Jeff, Temple, Penn, and PCOM. Two more in Cooper and RowanSOM literally across the river.

 

[deleted804295]

What you say might be true in general for many programs. Your friend who SOAPed, didnt play the Match Game well enough. A high Step score gets you a look. It's not a birth right to matching at a program. PDs have that resident for 3 plus years and dont want to hire unknowns or problems. I had this conversation several times when a lower stat student who auditioned with us. I knew them, they were a good worker and got along. I can teach this person, its my job. A higher stat student from elsewhere would not score as high with me. Many programs put a premium on knowing who they rank.

So how does a student become 'known' to a residency program that they're not affiliated with but interested in?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

They have to bust a-- on Step 1, then bust a-- with publications, then find time out of their already heavy schedules to network outside of their program.

People from top schools still have to do these things. Yes they have a head start but anyone goingnfor competitive thin Gs has to do these things, regardless of what school they come from.

I doubt that is true. If a patient got to choose between 2 Dr's - one from Harvard Med and one from a school they've never really heard of (even if that is a top tier program), I bet most patients would pick the Harvard doctor.

I second this. Just going beyond the fact that one school is more familiar, you hear of references all the time in pop culture as well.
“So and so doctor was a HYPSM educated grad who went to HYPSM med school and is now doing xyz” you see this reference too in law, business etc.
People in medicine will know that residency is just as important if not more, but to others, the name of the degree probably registers a lot more strongly.

Patients don’t even know if their doctor is an actual doctor or an NP, let alone what the prestige of their medical school was...

 

[ciestar]

So how does a student become 'known' to a residency program that they're not affiliated with but interested in?

Aways

 

[Angus Avagadro]

So how does a student become 'known' to a residency program that they're not affiliated with but interested in?

That's a fair question and comes back to playing the Match Game well. Target the programs you would be competetive to apply to with your stats, Steps, class rank, Honors rotations, etc. Also target where you want to live. There are some midwest residencies which dont get the number of applicants that the east and west coasts get. So your chances might be better there. You cant only apply to where you auditioned. Check your schools match list and see what programs have taken your grads and apply to these programs. Once top choices are targeted, get some aways and auditions at these places. Go there and shine. Good luck and best wishes.

 

[907914]

That's a fair question and comes back to playing the Match Game well. Target the programs you would be competetive to apply to with your stats, Steps, class rank, Honors rotations, etc. Also target where you want to live. There are some midwest residencies which dont get the number of applicants that the east and west coasts get. So your chances might be better there. You cant only apply to where you auditioned. Check your schools match list and see what programs have taken your grads and apply to these programs. Once top choices are targeted, get some aways and auditions at these places. Go there and shine. Good luck and best wishes.

Which would you say was more difficult: determining where you were competitive for med school or for residency?

 

[ciestar]

Which would you say was more difficult: determining where you were competitive for med school or for residency?

Definitely residency

 

[Cardinals1999]

That's a fair question and comes back to playing the Match Game well. Target the programs you would be competetive to apply to with your stats, Steps, class rank, Honors rotations, etc. Also target where you want to live. There are some midwest residencies which dont get the number of applicants that the east and west coasts get. So your chances might be better there. You cant only apply to where you auditioned. Check your schools match list and see what programs have taken your grads and apply to these programs. Once top choices are targeted, get some aways and auditions at these places. Go there and shine. Good luck and best wishes.

So if my school's match list shows that grads have gotten into ABC specialties at X hospital, but not necessarily specialty D (my specialty of choice), would it still be reasonable for me to apply to X hospital for specialty D?

 

[Gilakend]

Not as much as people think.

If you're trying to match into ortho at HSS, yes it matters. If you're trying to match in general, not so much. I would wager that for 95%+ of med students prestige doesn't matter. Only if you're going for academic/research/top tier residency aspirations as people have mentioned before.

 

[getdown]

Which would you say was more difficult: determining where you were competitive for med school or for residency?

Residency for sure. Because you will have to make that decision based on your stats, location (if your kids are older and you don't want to move them or maybe your spouse is tied down to a particular job), the type of program you're applying to (ENT with 2-3 residents per class vs IM with 20 residents per class) as well as regional bias as programs won't waste an interview spot on people they don't think will come regardless of their "stats" or "prestigious programs". Lots more factors play a role than a med school that just teaches you stuff. You're applying for a real job and you've got to be able to be trusted and perform to the standards expected of you. In med school you can just sit all day and not have real obligations or jobs and responsibilities.

 

[getdown]

I doubt that is true. If a patient got to choose between 2 Dr's - one from Harvard Med and one from a school they've never really heard of (even if that is a top tier program), I bet most patients would pick the Harvard doctor.

I second this. Just going beyond the fact that one school is more familiar, you hear of references all the time in pop culture as well.
“So and so doctor was a HYPSM educated grad who went to HYPSM med school and is now doing xyz” you see this reference too in law, business etc.
People in medicine will know that residency is just as important if not more, but to others, the name of the degree probably registers a lot more strongly.

I've been in practice for several years now and I've seen thousands of patients. I can count on one hand how many times they've asked where I went to med school. I get that question more from colleagues and nurses than actual patients.

Furthermore, most patients don't get to "choose" which doctors they see. Most patients are only allowed to see doctors in their insurance network otherwise they won't have their bill covered by going out of network. In the case of elective cash paying patients (like plastic surgery patients) they don't choose their doctors by which medical school they went to ... they choose their doctor by word of mouth. They want someone with PROVEN good outcomes and results. And if that person was a Caribbean grad (I'm being facetious) but has a clientele list of Hollywood movie stars and has amazing word of mouth people will go to him vs the HYPSM graduate with poor word of mouth. At some point your actual abilities need to start doing the talking and not fall back on whatever prestigious pedigree you have.

 

[Engrailed]

I've been in practice for several years now and I've seen thousands of patients. I can count on one hand how many times they've asked where I went to med school. I get that question more from colleagues and nurses than actual patients.

Furthermore, most patients don't get to "choose" which doctors they see. Most patients are only allowed to see doctors in their insurance network otherwise they won't have their bill covered by going out of network. In the case of elective cash paying patients (like plastic surgery patients) they don't choose their doctors by which medical school they went to ... they choose their doctor by word of mouth. They want someone with PROVEN good outcomes and results. And if that person was a Caribbean grad (I'm being facetious) but has a clientele list of Hollywood movie stars and has amazing word of mouth people will go to him vs the HYPSM graduate with poor word of mouth. At some point your actual abilities need to start doing the talking and not fall back on whatever prestigious pedigree you have.

Noted!

Residency for sure. Because you will have to make that decision based on your stats, location (if your kids are older and you don't want to move them or maybe your spouse is tied down to a particular job), the type of program you're applying to (ENT with 2-3 residents per class vs IM with 20 residents per class) as well as regional bias as programs won't waste an interview spot on people they don't think will come regardless of their "stats" or "prestigious programs". Lots more factors play a role than a med school that just teaches you stuff. You're applying for a real job and you've got to be able to be trusted and perform to the standards expected of you. In med school you can just sit all day and not have real obligations or jobs and responsibilities.

In getting into a good residency program what do you think are the most important factors (after step scores?

 

[getdown]

In getting into a good residency program what do you think are the most important factors (after step scores?

Outside of STEP scores, which indicate your probability of passing your board exams most programs want good, trustworthy residents who won't complain (much) and pull their weight without causing the PD grief from pissing off nurses and co-residents. Essentially, what you want in a good coworker. Residency, as much as it is a training program, is also real work. You are paid to take care of patients. You need to be able to navigate the social and political nature of the hospital and nursing staffs. You are also the back bone of programs and needed for the program and hospital staffing to run smoothly. Someone who's lazy and skirts out on their job results in other people having to pick up the slack. That's the whole point of audition rotations so people can see how you actually perform and gauge your work ethic. This is even more true for small sub specialty programs that only take 2 people per class. 1 person is a dud and that really screws the entire program.

 

[DNAJB6]

I doubt that is true. If a patient got to choose between 2 Dr's - one from Harvard Med and one from a school they've never really heard of (even if that is a top tier program), I bet most patients would pick the Harvard doctor.

Your patients aren't likely to ask to see your CV, diploma, or transcript. Very few will even notice.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

So if my school's match list shows that grads have gotten into ABC specialties at X hospital, but not necessarily specialty D (my specialty of choice), would it still be reasonable for me to apply to X hospital for specialty D?

I think so. Unless that program has never taken any DOs. Like our local univeristy has never taken a DO in IM, but has in other specialties. Then I would not apply. It takes a little research.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Which would you say was more difficult: determining where you were competitive for med school or for residency?

Good question. I wanted to be small town Family Doc and only applied DO. I'm sure I could have gotten in state MD or other MD schools. Certainly not the upper tier. Residency was not considered uber competetive, but was East coast, so intense enough. I guess I sweated the residency harder than school. I think in the near future,
First choice residencies will be harder to place than med school. IMO.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Outside of STEP scores, which indicate your probability of passing your board exams most programs want good, trustworthy residents who won't complain (much) and pull their weight without causing the PD grief from pissing off nurses and co-residents. Essentially, what you want in a good coworker. Residency, as much as it is a training program, is also real work. You are paid to take care of patients. You need to be able to navigate the social and political nature of the hospital and nursing staffs. You are also the back bone of programs and needed for the program and hospital staffing to run smoothly. Someone who's lazy and skirts out on their job results in other people having to pick up the slack. That's the whole point of audition rotations so people can see how you actually perform and gauge your work ethic. This is even more true for small sub specialty programs that only take 2 people per class. 1 person is a dud and that really screws the entire program.

This! What I've been saying all along.

 

[aldol16]

I doubt that is true. If a patient got to choose between 2 Dr's - one from Harvard Med and one from a school they've never really heard of (even if that is a top tier program), I bet most patients would pick the Harvard doctor.

I second this. Just going beyond the fact that one school is more familiar, you hear of references all the time in pop culture as well.
“So and so doctor was a HYPSM educated grad who went to HYPSM med school and is now doing xyz” you see this reference too in law, business etc.
People in medicine will know that residency is just as important if not more, but to others, the name of the degree probably registers a lot more strongly.

If all else were the exact same, I think you would be right. People would tend to pick the doctor with the better pedigree. If all else were equal. The problem is, all else is never equal. If you're picking doctors by just looking at where they went to med school, you're not going to end up doing very well. Might as well flip a coin. Most people will look at other things and even ask around to see if people they know and trust also trust a specific doctor. Word of mouth, trust, and bedside manner go a long way. If you ask people if they'd rather have a Harvard-educated doc who's an ass or a state university-educated doc who has great people skills, they'd probably say the latter.

Which brings me to my second point. Med school is not a good indicator of physician competence or interpersonal skills. A better indicator is where they trained and how other patients view them. You could very well train at Harvard and end up at a mediocre residency program in your field. Or vice versa.

 

[MyOdyssey]

Your patients aren't likely to ask to see your CV, diploma, or transcript. Very few will even notice.

It's easily accessible on any state that allows patients to look up their prospective doctors' medical license. On the same page, you can find out the doctors' medical school, residency program, fellowships and board certifications. At least you can in my state.

Try it. Search "look up medical license."

 

[MyOdyssey]

If all else were the exact same, I think you would be right. People would tend to pick the doctor with the better pedigree. If all else were equal. The problem is, all else is never equal. If you're picking doctors by just looking at where they went to med school, you're not going to end up doing very well. Might as well flip a coin. Most people will look at other things and even ask around to see if people they know and trust also trust a specific doctor. Word of mouth, trust, and bedside manner go a long way. If you ask people if they'd rather have a Harvard-educated doc who's an ass or a state university-educated doc who has great people skills, they'd probably say the latter.

Which brings me to my second point. Med school is not a good indicator of physician competence or interpersonal skills. A better indicator is where they trained and how other patients view them. You could very well train at Harvard and end up at a mediocre residency program in your field. Or vice versa.

Also doctors in certain of the most competitive specialties (e.g. dermatology, orthopedic surgery) will tend to have medical degrees from the most selective medical schools while fields like pediatrics and family medicine will have medical degrees from the least selective medical schools.

 

[Lucca]

Also doctors in certain of the most competitive specialties (e.g. dermatology, orthopedic surgery) will tend to have medical degrees from the most selective medical schools while fields like pediatrics and family medicine will have medical degrees from the least selective medical schools.

Lmao definitely not.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Also doctors in certain of the most competitive specialties (e.g. dermatology, orthopedic surgery) will tend to have medical degrees from the most selective medical schools while fields like pediatrics and family medicine will have medical degrees from the least selective medical schools.

This is such a dumb statement.

 

[ciestar]

It's easily accessible on any state that allows patients to look up their prospective doctors' medical license. On the same page, you can find out the doctors' medical school, residency program, fellowships and board certifications. At least you can in my state.

Try it. Search "look up medical license."

Yeah, anyone can. Most people won’t do this. Most can’t even tell you if their doctor is actually a doctor (DO or MD) or an APP.

 

[ciestar]

Also doctors in certain of the most competitive specialties (e.g. dermatology, orthopedic surgery) will tend to have medical degrees from the most selective medical schools while fields like pediatrics and family medicine will have medical degrees from the least selective medical schools.

This isn’t remotely true.

 

[aldol16]

Also doctors in certain of the most competitive specialties (e.g. dermatology, orthopedic surgery) will tend to have medical degrees from the most selective medical schools while fields like pediatrics and family medicine will have medical degrees from the least selective medical schools.

Generally not true. You can find a substantial number of people from the most selective medical schools in just about any specialty. Think about what you're saying. In order for it to be true, most people at the most selective schools will be matching into those competitive specialties. Which isn't true - you can just look at match lists from each school which are available on here. What is true is that if you look at top residency programs in whatever specialty, there is a tendency to have more residents from selective medical schools. So what that means for this discussion is that students at top schools apply into many different specialties - they just tend to get into the top programs in those specialties more frequently.

Remember that the top internal medicine residencies are still super competitive.

 

[CidHighwind]

Generally not true. You can find a substantial number of people from the most selective medical schools in just about any specialty. Think about what you're saying. In order for it to be true, most people at the most selective schools will be matching into those competitive specialties. Which isn't true - you can just look at match lists from each school which are available on here. What is true is that if you look at top residency programs in whatever specialty, there is a tendency to have more residents from selective medical schools. So what that means for this discussion is that students at top schools apply into many different specialties - they just tend to get into the top programs in those specialties more frequently.

Remember that the top internal medicine residencies are still super competitive.

I think they mean that going to those schools, it’s easier to match into “better” residencies period. There’s still a good amount of specialties/programs that won’t look at a DO’s application.

 

[aldol16]

I think they mean that going to those schools, it’s easier to match into “better” residencies period. There’s still a good amount of specialties/programs that won’t look at a DO’s application.

That's not what they said at all. If they're making the argument that going to top schools leads to it being easier to match into top residencies, regardless of specialty, then fine, there's no argument there. This would not lead to their assertion that doctors in the most competitive specialties will tend to have graduated from the most selective med schools.

 

[LeaveNoTrace]

Gonnif: what if you can only see yourself as a psychiatrist?

 

[907914]

Gonnif: what if you can only see yourself as a psychiatrist?

Then it doesn’t matter where you go, you can match Psych from anywhere (and that shouldn’t change in the next 4-6 years).

Also, you should not go in to medicine if you can only see yourself as one thing from the get go.

Even for the best applicants, if you aren’t comfortable with the prospect that you may tank everything, fly by the skin of your teeth, and end up as an FM in East Peoria, Illinois...then you may end up severely disappointed.

 

[Engrailed]

Then it doesn’t matter where you go, you can match Psych from anywhere (and that shouldn’t change in the next 4-6 years).

Also, you should not go in to medicine if you can only see yourself as one thing from the get go.

Even for the best applicants, if you aren’t comfortable with the prospect that you may tank everything, fly by the skin of your teeth, and end up as an FM in East Peoria, Illinois...then you may end up severely disappointed.

I think it does happen in that ppl have a specific interest (just thinking back to the surgeon AMA) but i think those cases are very rare and applicants would need to demonstrate some long term sustained interest plus having explored other areas from shadowing.
Just my opinion

 

[ciestar]

I think it does happen in that ppl have a specific interest (just thinking back to the surgeon AMA) but i think those cases are very rare and applicants would need to demonstrate some long term sustained interest plus having explored other areas from shadowing.
Just my opinion

It’s not as rare as you’d think.

Attitudes tend to change after step 1 scores are released, though