How much do surgeons work?

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howdy2003

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Hi guys,

How much do surgeons really work after residency? Is ~60 hours a week enough to be an effective surgeon, or should you expect to work 80+ for the rest of your career? Does the fact that I am concerned with hours at all mean that I’m not cut out for it? Any advice y’all have is welcome.

**I am sorry if this is the wrong place for this question; this is my first post.

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There are surgeons working <40 hrs and others working >80 hrs per week. I think 60 hrs is probably somewhere in the middle. It depends on a number of factors but it really comes down to what's most important to you: time with family/friends, money, fame, etc.

I don't think anyone is cut out to be working 80hr weeks for life - it probably wouldn't be a very long life (although I suppose there are some notable examples to the contrary).
 
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Hi guys,

How much do surgeons really work after residency? Is ~60 hours a week enough to be an effective surgeon, or should you expect to work 80+ for the rest of your career? Does the fact that I am concerned with hours at all mean that I’m not cut out for it? Any advice y’all have is welcome.

**I am sorry if this is the wrong place for this question; this is my first post.

It depends entirely on the field. It's much harder to work less hours in a field like Neurosurgery and Vascular Surgery than it is in Retinal Surgery and Orthopaedic Hand Surgery. Some fields average as little as 45, some are closer to 70.

But even within fields, it depends on your type of practice and priorities. I know a Neurosurgeon working 40 hours and an ENT working 90.

In general, the average surgeon works more than the average physician overall. But as I've demonstrated, overall average is pointless.



Not wanting to work 80+ hours a week for life does not mean you aren't cut out for surgery. But Residency will be brutal no matter the field. You have to be willing to put in the time to develop skills.
 
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It's much harder to work less hours in a field like Neurosurgery and Vascular Surgery than it is in Retinal Surgery and Orthopaedic Hand Surgery.

Fake news. Vascular Surgery is a lifestyle specialty. At times I have to pinch myself at how compliant my patients are, how well they control their diabesity and how fast they throw away their cigarettes. It's too easy. Cheers.
 
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Fake news. Vascular Surgery is a lifestyle specialty. At times I have to pinch myself at how compliant my patients are, how well they control their diabesity and how fast they throw away their cigarettes. It's too easy. Cheers.


:laugh: I love you vascular guys
 
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Fake news. Vascular Surgery is a lifestyle specialty. At times I have to pinch myself at how compliant my patients are, how well they control their diabesity and how fast they throw away their cigarettes. It's too easy. Cheers.

Job security man.

But I WILL say that I think I have a pretty awesome setup. Hospital employed for a large academic system with multiple hospitals in a major city. Primarily based at an outlier/community hospital but also have privileges at the mothership for my big cases such as elective open aortas. I work probably about 50hrs M-F on average. I’m on call for a week at a time, every other week, but infrequently have to go in for an emergency. It does happen of course, but maybe 1-2x/month on average. On the weekends, sometimes I do saturday cases when on call, but usually it is to improve patient throughput through the hospital and to avoid overloading Mondays in the OR. I have a resident to help out though only about 50% of weekends. I feel I am well-reimbursed with a good bonus/incentive package and benefits, and the hospital C-suite is comprised almost entirely of doctors, which makes for leadership with a true understanding of what docs want. I do some things that aren’t my favorite, like a half day a week of wound care, and more veins than I’d like, but I appreciate that they are necessary services that I provide to the community.

So my point is that yes, on average, yes vascular has some of the most emergencies and some of the worst work hours, but that doesn’t mean that the only option is to work 80hrs a week doe the rest of your life. If you’re willing to give up working at a tertiary center, which for me was never my goal, then there are a lot of great options.
 
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Job security man.

But I WILL say that I think I have a pretty awesome setup. Hospital employed for a large academic system with multiple hospitals in a major city. Primarily based at an outlier/community hospital but also have privileges at the mothership for my big cases such as elective open aortas. I work probably about 50hrs M-F on average. I’m on call for a week at a time, every other week, but infrequently have to go in for an emergency. It does happen of course, but maybe 1-2x/month on average. On the weekends, sometimes I do saturday cases when on call, but usually it is to improve patient throughput through the hospital and to avoid overloading Mondays in the OR. I have a resident to help out though only about 50% of weekends. I feel I am well-reimbursed with a good bonus/incentive package and benefits, and the hospital C-suite is comprised almost entirely of doctors, which makes for leadership with a true understanding of what docs want. I do some things that aren’t my favorite, like a half day a week of wound care, and more veins than I’d like, but I appreciate that they are necessary services that I provide to the community.

So my point is that yes, on average, yes vascular has some of the most emergencies and some of the worst work hours, but that doesn’t mean that the only option is to work 80hrs a week doe the rest of your life. If you’re willing to give up working at a tertiary center, which for me was never my goal, then there are a lot of great options.

I'm gonna add my 2 Abe Lincolns as well on a more serious note. My setup is very different from @LucidSplash but so far so good. I think this is the big benefit of a field like vascular surgery where you can really choose what and how you want to practice. I'm hospital employed as well having joined a large multi-specialty physician group that only works at one hospital. I too am currently averaging about 50 hours a week M-F on average. Call is Q3 but it's a unique situation where the senior most partner is transitioning to retirement and takes 10 days of call upfront at the beginning of the month, after that my other partner and I split the rest of the days in half. Out of my 10 calls, I have slept through 5-6 of them without a phone call from anyone. About 2-3 times I'll get woken up for a floor issue or consult that I can usually manage over the phone or look a scan if I'm being curbsided. About 1-2 times I'll have to wake up and go in to operate but this has been more prevalent on the weekends not weekdays. Being in a non-teaching hospital and having a vascular medicine service that admits every single patient, I'm actually relatively shielded from nonsense calls. I don't have residents and to be honest, I don't really miss it. I miss interactions with the awesome residents and I don't miss the ones with those that are super lazy or entitled. More importantly, I'm still very much learning how to be an attending which is a whole different level of stressful. It's just different when you do a CEA and waiting for the patient to wake up and do some tricks so you know you didn't stroke them out. To reiterate much of the above, I think I'm reimbursed well with a well-defined bonus structure that I actually have a good idea of what my year end salary will be. My senior partners are the quintessential definitions of gentlemen surgeons and technically awesome. My wife and I also love the city that we live in and it's been great for our kids and dog. I've gotten myself back in relative shape, lost some weight, a lot more fit than during my fellowship days, and all in all pretty happy with my setup. My practice encompasses about 90% of vascular surgery minus the big whomping open thoracos or multi-branched fens (I'm good with this) and first rib resections. For anyone, interested in operating throughout the body, having highly technical procedures, access to the highest tech toys, a longitudinal aspect of patient care and working on the edge of an ever evolving field...I think you should consider vascular surgery. But you have to be goodlooking. Because we're all extraordinarily goodlooking...and humble... Cheers.
 
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I have been averaging maybe 10 hrs a week during covid and it hasn't adversely affected my surgical skills. Definitely don't need to work brutal hours to be an effective surgeon. Before covid I was doing 20 ish hr weeks.
 
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I have been averaging maybe 10 hrs a week during covid and it hasn't adversely affected my surgical skills. Definitely don't need to work brutal hours to be an effective surgeon. Before covid I was doing 20 ish hr weeks.

Don't want to sound naïve, but 20 hours a week as a surgeon? That's a thing? Do you mind me asking your specialty (if any)?
 
Don't want to sound naïve, but 20 hours a week as a surgeon? That's a thing? Do you mind me asking your specialty (if any)?

Probably Vascular Surgery. It's a lifestyle specialty. Haven't you been paying attention?
 
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Probably Vascular Surgery. It's a lifestyle specialty. Haven't you been paying attention?

In all seriousness, 20 hours per week is certainly not unheard of in ENT and Urology. It's more than doable in Ophthalmology. A lot of trauma surgeons do shift-work now, so I imagine it would be possible for them too. Perhaps a few subsets of Orthopaedics, and even a few subsets of general surgery might be able to pull off 20 hours per week too.

The stereotype of surgical subspecialties being all work and no play is in reality only partially true. If you are flexible with where you work and don't expect 75th percentile pay with your first job, there are plenty of opportunities to take jobs requiring less hours.
 
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Probably Vascular Surgery. It's a lifestyle specialty. Haven't you been paying attention?

Lol I have just never heard (or read on SDN) of any specialty working 20 hrs., let alone surgery.

but thanks ill try and pay better attention!
 
In all seriousness, 20 hours per week is certainly not unheard of in ENT and Urology. It's more than doable in Ophthalmology. A lot of trauma surgeons do shift-work now, so I imagine it would be possible for them too. Perhaps a few subsets of Orthopaedics, and even a few subsets of general surgery might be able to pull off 20 hours per week too.

The stereotype of surgical subspecialties being all work and no play is in reality only partially true. If you are flexible with where you work and don't expect 75th percentile pay with your first job, there are plenty of opportunities to take jobs requiring less hours.

Didn't know the surgical specialties can have such flexibility! Cool to know, thank you!
 
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Don't want to sound naïve, but 20 hours a week as a surgeon? That's a thing? Do you mind me asking your specialty (if any)?
I am a community general surgeon. I usually take call 6 times a month and have clinic one afternoon a week. I guess technically the 24hr call plus clinic and elective cases would put me at 40 hrs a week but I don't count the whole call because I spend much of at home. The 20 hrs is time spent caring for patients (that is what my malpractice insurance counts and when under a certain amount I get to pay half price for my insurance). During covid I have let others pick up more call because I can afford to work less plus fewer elective cases especially early on when there were none. My hope is to take less call and do more elective work while staying under my half price malpractice cap. That way I have plenty of time for my volunteer work and travel.
 
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I am a community general surgeon. I usually take call 6 times a month and have clinic one afternoon a week. I guess technically the 24hr call plus clinic and elective cases would put me at 40 hrs a week but I don't count the whole call because I spend much of at home. The 20 hrs is time spent caring for patients (that is what my malpractice insurance counts and when under a certain amount I get to pay half price for my insurance). During covid I have let others pick up more call because I can afford to work less plus fewer elective cases especially early on when there were none. My hope is to take less call and do more elective work while staying under my half price malpractice cap. That way I have plenty of time for my volunteer work and travel.

Yeah but even factoring in the call and clinic, it still sounds like a pleasant gig.

Thanks for replying!
 
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Yeah but even factoring in the call and clinic, it still sounds like a pleasant gig.

Thanks for replying!
No problem. I am definitely a fan. Normally I do two 10 day vacations a year, a ten day surgical mission yearly, and various other volunteer activities that range from 2 to 14 days.
 
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But you have to be goodlooking. Because we're all extraordinarily goodlooking...and humble... Cheers.

Welp, I know what field to go into now (as long as you ask my mom, wife, or daughter :laugh:) . Thank you for helping me decide.
 
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Hi guys,

How much do surgeons really work after residency? Is ~60 hours a week enough to be an effective surgeon, or should you expect to work 80+ for the rest of your career? Does the fact that I am concerned with hours at all mean that I’m not cut out for it? Any advice y’all have is welcome.

**I am sorry if this is the wrong place for this question; this is my first post.

It's not just what field you go into, it's the general setup of the practice.

Private practice vs. academics. Call structure given the size of the group, etc.
 
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I am a community general surgeon. I usually take call 6 times a month and have clinic one afternoon a week. I guess technically the 24hr call plus clinic and elective cases would put me at 40 hrs a week but I don't count the whole call because I spend much of at home. The 20 hrs is time spent caring for patients (that is what my malpractice insurance counts and when under a certain amount I get to pay half price for my insurance). During covid I have let others pick up more call because I can afford to work less plus fewer elective cases especially early on when there were none. My hope is to take less call and do more elective work while staying under my half price malpractice cap. That way I have plenty of time for my volunteer work and travel.
How difficult is it to find a gig like yours? That sounds very much in line with my life goals
 
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It's not just what field you go into, it's the general setup of the practice.

Private practice vs. academics. Call structure given the size of the group, etc.
Absolutely. I worked in academics out of training and am now in private practice. There's positive and negative aspects to both. My call schedule didn't really change, but I feel like I have more control over my work week now. I'm in clinic once a week with an occasional half-day added on for urgent referrals. The rest are operative days that I spread throughout the week so that I rarely operate past 3 or 4 PM anymore. Anything non-urgent overnight that needs admission usually goes to the hospitalists, and we'll see the patient promptly the next morning.

My partner and I trade 24-hour call, covering each others patients when we're not there. I also work with a great group of PAs who take floor calls, while we field outside calls for consults and from patients at home. Accounting for work I do at home as well, I probably work 50-70 hours per week. It's a good balance and a much nicer life after killing myself in training doing 80-100+ hours every week for almost a decade.
 
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