How much do you save/invest every year?

[mmmcdowe]

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You are doing great!

 

[Splenda88]

It's actually my third car - I have an R8 I daily drive, a Nissan Xterra I use for moving around the doggos and now the lambo.

It's used, all of my cars are. Paid a little over 300 for the lambo

If any of my residents happen to stumble on this I doxxed myself hard haha

I just realized that an Audi R8 is a ~200k car. You are a car enthusiast...

 

[mmmcdowe]

Lot of car lovers here. Anyone else have a splurge hobby?

I am a clothing enthusiast myself. Love quality leather shoes. Allen Edmonds and Alden loaders for daily wear and then a smattering of Carmina, Crockett and Jones, John Lobb, and Gaziano and Girling. Carminas are my personal favorite footwear, however. I think they're at the top of the value curve where most things more expensive that are more aesthetic than meaningfully better quality on a functional level. I also buy a bespoke suit about once a year. Have previously been using a local tailor but now I essentially have all the basics and it's more about the experience. My next big clothing splurge someday will be a bespoke midnight blue tuxedo from Henry Poole modeled after the original one.

My wife loves the luxury vacation scene. We just finished a trip to the Grand otel in Michigan and the fall we are going on our first higher end cruise with Cunard on the Queen Mary 2 transatlantic voyage.

 

[sloh]

As a guy, tailored clothing. Spend a little extra on the front end. Spend some time finding what fits and complements your body (find a woman to come with you to help you!). Buy high quality and if it fits and complements your body well, you really only need like 3-4 variations in rotation for cold and warmer weather. Well fitting and comfortable slacks, dress shirts, monks, oxfords. These days, linen pants, lighter color button ups for warmer weather, loafers. I buy most of my shoes from Thursday boots. Lots of my slacks, dress shirts, suits from state and liberty. Also have some suits from indochino which are also great.

A nice watch to complement the outfit really rounds it out for a guy. Tag heur, breitling, etc.

I’m sure people have mentioned this already but I find a lot of value in paying other professionals to handle tasks I don’t enjoy. Cleaning, fixing appliances, repairs.

 

[gutonc]

As a guy, tailored clothing. Spend a little extra on the front end. Spend some time finding what fits and complements your body (find a woman to come with you to help you!). Buy high quality and if it fits and complements your body well, you really only need like 3-4 variations in rotation for cold and warmer weather. Well fitting and comfortable slacks, dress shirts, monks, oxfords. These days, linen pants, lighter color button ups for warmer weather, loafers. I buy most of my shoes from Thursday boots. Lots of my slacks, dress shirts, suits from state and liberty. Also have some suits from indochino which are also great.

A couple of years ago, I found a guy who is a semi-retired lawyer who started a bespoke men's clothing company here. Focused primarily on suits and sportcoats but does have a new ready-to-wear business casual line as well. All handmade, in-house in Portland, OR. Fabrics from all over but primarily England, Scotland, Italy and France. He contracts with a shirtmaker in Italy for both ready-to-wear and custom shirts, an Italian cobbler for shoes and belts and a French tie/brace maker. I bought a suit there last year and it is by far the most comfortable item of clothing (that's not pajamas) that I've ever owned. Expensive for sure, but 110% worth it.

A nice watch to complement the outfit really rounds it out for a guy. Tag heur, breitling, etc.

I'm not a watch guy, but I can see this

I’m sure people have mentioned this already but I find a lot of value in paying other professionals to handle tasks I don’t enjoy. Cleaning, fixing appliances, repairs.

Definitely. We have 2 acres with a small orchard and some blueberries and raspberries but also a lot of open field (for now), as well as a fairly elaborate front garden that was there when we bought the house. I mow and manage the orchard and berries but I pay people to do the rest of the work because I hate it. Same with house cleaning. That's a check I'm happy to write every other week.

 

[mmmcdowe]

Fun fact historically clothing was the third largest household expense after housing and food. It isn't that it bespoke clothing is expensive. We are just used to the garbage of fast fashion. My mind was blown the first time I wore tailored clothing. 100 percent agree on the comfort. Amazing how comfortable trousers can be when the seams aren't fighting you.

 

[thumbz]

Pre pandemic I was going to pull the trigger on my first ever grown up suit and get a fully tailored custom Tom Ford, but now I haven't worn dress clothes in 5 years. However it sounds like I need to pull the trigger on getting into some real clothing that's actually made to fit me.

I do enjoy watches, but they're by no means my passion. I have two rolexes, and every time I buy a new one I sell the one I wear the least to justify it.

 

[sloh]

Pre pandemic I was going to pull the trigger on my first ever grown up suit and get a fully tailored custom Tom Ford, but now I haven't worn dress clothes in 5 years. However it sounds like I need to pull the trigger on getting into some real clothing that's actually made to fit me.

I do enjoy watches, but they're by no means my passion. I have two rolexes, and every time I buy a new one I sell the one I wear the least to justify it.

Wife and I do date night like at least once per week and we promised each other we wouldn't end up just wearing home lounge attire out haha. Makes for a nice evening, the ritual of it all. And helps keep the relationship more romantic/alive.

 

[eyeeye_captain]

We mostly splurge on food. Pretty good scene here, I probably try something new every week or two. No picky kids thankfully, so we can usually go anywhere. Leveraged some connections to get in tight with the big local meat and fish guys to know when the good stuff comes in and have it held, similar with some of the farmers’ market guys. I’m debating upgrading the smoker/grill set up or getting a dehydrator for jerky and fruit.

 

[bravotwozero]

We mostly splurge on food. Pretty good scene here, I probably try something new every week or two. No picky kids thankfully, so we can usually go anywhere. Leveraged some connections to get in tight with the big local meat and fish guys to know when the good stuff comes in and have it held, similar with some of the farmers’ market guys. I’m debating upgrading the smoker/grill set up or getting a dehydrator for jerky and fruit.

how frequently are you going to use it? I've got a great pellet smoker, havent used it in like 2 years, because it's a pain in the butt to clean and get started lol. My father in law dropped off his propane bbq grill the other day and i've just been using that instead

 

[eyeeye_captain]

how frequently are you going to use it? I've got a great pellet smoker, havent used it in like 2 years, because it's a pain in the butt to clean and get started lol. My father in law dropped off his propane bbq grill the other day and i've just been using that instead

That’s kind of the question/reason I haven’t already jumped in. I usually do a new decent size cooking project every couple of weeks. If I can get the rest of the family to buy in (no guarantee), I think it would get used. It would have to be a pellet because nobody is going to babysit it. Tough to clean may be enough to make me just stick with what I’ve got.

I think I’m going to make a big batch of escabeche this weekend, so I’m probably deep enough in the doghouse as is.

 

[Monocles]

Sorry for gravedigging an old thread but just wanted to follow up. Now finishing up my 3rd year as an attending - just got my 36th attending paycheck. Average savings rate ended up being about 70% post-tax (due to inflation, some lifestyle creep, buying a house). Still committed to the goal of FIRE and quitting medicine.

Total retirement savings: 675k (goal 2 million then I leave)
NW: 1.06m

Starting year 5 today

Total retirement savings: 939k
NW: 1.4m

As several of the posters above pointed out, childcare is crazy expensive esp in New England. My savings rate has been pretty consistently 70-75% as an attending for these years, and soon I'll be lucky to hit 50%. Will also need to re-evaluate my FI goal as its looking closer to 3M as opposed to 2M now.

I will likely be working for a long time... but I've come to really enjoy my coworkers so it is what it is.

 

[thumbz]

I will likely be working for a long time... but I've come to really enjoy my coworkers so it is what it is.

Every medical student and resident needs to read and internalize this. I'm in the same boat - I really enjoy my co-workers and that makes me want to go into work. It drastically changed my life trajectory away from "grind, retire ASAP" to "I would be so bored if I didn't get to go to work" - if I'm in town on my stretches off by mid stretch I'm wanting to go back so I can hang out with my friends (he said in the lamest way).

This is turn has allowed me to have this amazing lifestyle as I'm happy to only save ~20% of my post tax income each year (and another ~15% into maxing out my 401k/401a/HSA).

Fingers crossed I don't quote this in 2-3 years with all my coworkers having left and me being miserable I didn't save more

 

[Splenda88]

Starting year 5 today

Total retirement savings: 939k
NW: 1.4m

As several of the posters above pointed out, childcare is crazy expensive esp in New England. My savings rate has been pretty consistently 70-75% as an attending for these years, and soon I'll be lucky to hit 50%. Will also need to re-evaluate my FI goal as its looking closer to 3M as opposed to 2M now.

I will likely be working for a long time... but I've come to really enjoy my coworkers so it is what it is.

That is impressive

I start year 5 as well today and our net worth is about the same but I started with 400k.

I am only saving/investing 25-30% of my gross pay.

How are you able to save 70%? Any kids/spouse?

 

[Mad Jack]

Lot of car lovers here. Anyone else have a splurge hobby?

I am a clothing enthusiast myself. Love quality leather shoes. Allen Edmonds and Alden loaders for daily wear and then a smattering of Carmina, Crockett and Jones, John Lobb, and Gaziano and Girling. Carminas are my personal favorite footwear, however. I think they're at the top of the value curve where most things more expensive that are more aesthetic than meaningfully better quality on a functional level. I also buy a bespoke suit about once a year. Have previously been using a local tailor but now I essentially have all the basics and it's more about the experience. My next big clothing splurge someday will be a bespoke midnight blue tuxedo from Henry Poole modeled after the original one.

My wife loves the luxury vacation scene. We just finished a trip to the Grand otel in Michigan and the fall we are going on our first higher end cruise with Cunard on the Queen Mary 2 transatlantic voyage.

I'm so focused on saving that the only luxuries I give myself are my car and a couple vacations a year. Once I've got 7 figures under my belt I'll probably take my foot off the gas and splurge a little. I do miss fashion though, so that'll probably be my next problem lol

 

[mmmcdowe]

I'm so focused on saving that the only luxuries I give myself are my car and a couple vacations a year. Once I've got 7 figures under my belt I'll probably take my foot off the gas and splurge a little. I do miss fashion though, so that'll probably be my next problem lol

Agree, seven figures is the inflection point. If done early in your career you'll essentially be guaranteed enough for retirement unless the world collapses. Then it just becomes a matter of how much more than enough do you want. I can't say that it has dramatically changed my spending by more than maybe 5 or 10%, but it has definitely immensely elevated how I feel about the spending that I do both at the time of it and afterwards. I no longer feel like I am waisting my best compounding years. I suspect in a few more years when my gains from investments exceed how much I'm putting in per year I will have another perspective change and will shift more towards angel investing after maxing out retirement accounts. I've already been playing in that arena a little.

 

[Splenda88]

Agree, seven figures is the inflection point. If done early in your career you'll essentially be guaranteed enough for retirement unless the world collapses. Then it just becomes a matter of how much more than enough do you want. I can't say that it has dramatically changed my spending by more than maybe 5 or 10%, but it has definitely immensely elevated how I feel about the spending that I do both at the time of it and afterwards. I no longer feel like I am waiting my best compounding years. I suspect in a few more years when my gains from investments exceed how much I'm putting in per year I will have another perspective change and will shift more towards angel investing after maxing out retirement accounts. I've already been playing in that arena a little.

I think at a certain amount (10 mil of today's money), you will enjoy the same lifestyle as someone whose net worth is even 30M. Most millionaires can't afford a private jet, a yacht etc...

 

[mmmcdowe]

It seems like 10m is a common target number among docs I've talked to locally about it.

 

[eyeeye_captain]

Agree with you both, $10M gives you a lot of wiggle room. $300k+ to draw yearly is a pretty big pie, although lifestyle creep will get some folks.

Factoring in slowing down some and inflation, I think I can hit $5M liquid in 5 years and $10M in maybe 10.

 

[Monocles]

Every medical student and resident needs to read and internalize this. I'm in the same boat - I really enjoy my co-workers and that makes me want to go into work. It drastically changed my life trajectory away from "grind, retire ASAP" to "I would be so bored if I didn't get to go to work" - if I'm in town on my stretches off by mid stretch I'm wanting to go back so I can hang out with my friends (he said in the lamest way).

For me its starting to become more of a golden handcuffs situation - I've been in the same role for 5 years now and each year its gotten easier. I'm the opposite of ambitious lol so as I long as I keep turning down promotions, I can keep coasting on reputation and good relationships with colleagues alone. It's gotten to the point where I'm like "welllll the money isn't terrible and the work isn't too much of a hassle". Even though Im no longer burning to leave medicine, I am still committed to the FI part so that if my job ever becomes troublesome, I can have the option to walk away.

That is impressive

I start year 5 as well today and our net worth is about the same but I started with 400k.

I am only saving/investing 25-30% of my gross pay.

How are you able to save 70%? Any kids/spouse?

I actually didn't start from 0 either! Left fellowship without about 165k ish in retirement savings (brute forcing a post-tax 33-50% SR during residency + fellowship while living in boston bc I hated medicine lol)

My wife and I are introverted homebodies. Our monthly expenses now are literally like $3k mortgage, $1k car and other bills, $1k credit card spending and then $15k to maxing out 403(b)s/VTSAX in brokerage (thus hitting that 70-75% post-tax SR)

As we're starting childcare soon, we've sadly found out it'll cost more than our mortgage, thus the lower anticipated SR of closer to 50%

 

[Monocles]

I'm so focused on saving that the only luxuries I give myself are my car and a couple vacations a year. Once I've got 7 figures under my belt I'll probably take my foot off the gas and splurge a little. I do miss fashion though, so that'll probably be my next problem lol

I feel like 1M net worth was a big psychological turning point in reduced financial stress. Whereas before big ticket expenses (10K+) like emergency home repairs kept me up at night, and now I don't sweat things under 20K and just shrug as daily market fluctuations are about as impactful.

A memorable moment was hitting 1M while on an overseas vacation. I was like "hey do you want to go to this fancy place to eat - even if we spend ourselves out of millionaire status it'll be fine". We ended up coming back from the vacation at 1.020M just because of how much the market ripped during that month.

 

[thumbz]

Do any of you ever struggle with "losing hope" so to speak. What I mean is, I agree $10mil is like the "magic number" I want to hit for retirement (the issue of course being by the time I want to retire in 20 years $10mil = $20mil).

And I feel like that number is entirely out of reach, which then causes me to look at my savings and be like "what am I doing this for." To hit an inflation adjusted $10 mil in 20 years, ASSUMING a 7% inflation adjusted S&P500 return, I'll need to save $14k a month. Even as a somewhat baller hospitalist, I can't touch that. So then I find myself throwing up my hands and saying "well just enjoy life now then"

I've also struggled existentially with seeing the bad morbidity and mortality in the occasional nice normal 30 something year old, and asking myself what if that was me. Which leads down the rabbit hole of "will I even make it to being an old man or should I just enjoy it now"

Thanks for coming to my existential dread TED talk 😆

Luckily this usually ends the same way, which is grinding to hit my arbitrary savings goal early in the year so I can spend "freely" the rest of the year. Just don't scroll up to where I talk about my cars as y'all will be like "yeah, savings"

 

[Nocturnist]

Agree, seven figures is the inflection point. If done early in your career you'll essentially be guaranteed enough for retirement unless the world collapses. Then it just becomes a matter of how much more than enough do you want. I can't say that it has dramatically changed my spending by more than maybe 5 or 10%, but it has definitely immensely elevated how I feel about the spending that I do both at the time of it and afterwards. I no longer feel like I am waisting my best compounding years. I suspect in a few more years when my gains from investments exceed how much I'm putting in per year I will have another perspective change and will shift more towards angel investing after maxing out retirement accounts. I've already been playing in that arena a little.

This.

I dont think enough folks truly internalize this point.

I have 2.4M invested today. if I don't contribute another penny at 10% interest, I'll have 16M in 20 years. Vs If I continue to max both my 401k and 457b, I'll only have 19M. In 30 years? 42M vs 49M. Not to look down at several mil, but it'll be virtually meaningless to my financial picture.

Do the heavy lifting in your 30s and you set yourself and several generations for life.

Do any of you ever struggle with "losing hope" so to speak. What I mean is, I agree $10mil is like the "magic number" I want to hit for retirement (the issue of course being by the time I want to retire in 20 years $10mil = $20mil).

And I feel like that number is entirely out of reach, which then causes me to look at my savings and be like "what am I doing this for." To hit an inflation adjusted $10 mil in 20 years, ASSUMING a 7% inflation adjusted S&P500 return, I'll need to save $14k a month. Even as a somewhat baller hospitalist, I can't touch that. So then I find myself throwing up my hands and saying "well just enjoy life now then"

I've also struggled existentially with seeing the bad morbidity and mortality in the occasional nice normal 30 something year old, and asking myself what if that was me. Which leads down the rabbit hole of "will I even make it to being an old man or should I just enjoy it now"

Thanks for coming to my existential dread TED talk 😆

Luckily this usually ends the same way, which is grinding to hit my arbitrary savings goal early in the year so I can spend "freely" the rest of the year. Just don't scroll up to where I talk about my cars as y'all will be like "yeah, savings"

10M is incredibly easily within reach.
How easy? All you need to do is just have 1M invested by age 40.

if you start working as an attending at 30, just save 5k a month for 10 years=1m at age 40 assuming 10%/yr.

Then? Never save another penny and at age 65 you're at 10M. Don't want to front load? Just save 3k a month for 35 years.

How many hospitalist making at least 300k or more can't save 60k a year including employer contributions for just 10 years? Or just max out their 401k for 35 years (assuming your employer kicks in another 10-12k a year). I'm honestly shocked so few physicians retire with more than 5M.

 

[Monocles]

Do any of you ever struggle with "losing hope" so to speak. What I mean is, I agree $10mil is like the "magic number" I want to hit for retirement (the issue of course being by the time I want to retire in 20 years $10mil = $20mil).

I think the question has a mathematical premise, which is do you REALLY need 10 mil or is it more of a psychological safety net? At a 3-4% SWR rate, is your current post-tax spend $300-400k annually? If not, then a more realistic FIRE goal to aim for might be closer to 25-33x your annual post-tax spend.

Alternatively, if your currently monthly post-tax spend is indeed $25-33k, are there fluffy luxuries that you are able to cut back on to save that $14k a month to hit your 10 mil goal?

Then again Im a boring frugal so YMMV 🤣

 

[Mad Jack]

Do any of you ever struggle with "losing hope" so to speak. What I mean is, I agree $10mil is like the "magic number" I want to hit for retirement (the issue of course being by the time I want to retire in 20 years $10mil = $20mil).

And I feel like that number is entirely out of reach, which then causes me to look at my savings and be like "what am I doing this for." To hit an inflation adjusted $10 mil in 20 years, ASSUMING a 7% inflation adjusted S&P500 return, I'll need to save $14k a month. Even as a somewhat baller hospitalist, I can't touch that. So then I find myself throwing up my hands and saying "well just enjoy life now then"

I've also struggled existentially with seeing the bad morbidity and mortality in the occasional nice normal 30 something year old, and asking myself what if that was me. Which leads down the rabbit hole of "will I even make it to being an old man or should I just enjoy it now"

Thanks for coming to my existential dread TED talk 😆

Luckily this usually ends the same way, which is grinding to hit my arbitrary savings goal early in the year so I can spend "freely" the rest of the year. Just don't scroll up to where I talk about my cars as y'all will be like "yeah, savings"

I think my big question would be why 10 million? It is very doable, but I think I would ask myself "what is my worst case scenario with what I'm doing now?" You end up with 5, 6, 7 million? Realistically, one can live off of that amount indefinitely and do quite well for themselves by changing their investment strategy. You will likely have a paid-off home and be old enough that the newest, fastest cars will hold less appeal. At what point is the hoarding just to see shiny digits versus being a functional thing in your life?

 

[Nocturnist]

I think the question has a mathematical premise, which is do you REALLY need 10 mil or is it more of a psychological safety net? At a 3-4% SWR rate, is your current post-tax spend $300-400k annually? If not, then a more realistic FIRE goal to aim for might be closer to 25-33x your annual post-tax spend.

Alternatively, if your currently monthly post-tax spend is indeed $25-33k, are there fluffy luxuries that you are able to cut back on to save that $14k a month to hit your 10 mil goal?

Then again Im a boring frugal so YMMV 🤣

Ya my monthly spending is currently 25-30k a month. That includes 13k in mortgages and 3k in childcare that'll go away in the next 5 years but I'm assuming when retired I'll probably replace those with traveling. I think in general most physicians earn around 300-400k a year and would want to be able to have that income replaced in retirement hence the 10M figure but I'm in the hcol northeast.

 

[mmmcdowe]

This.

I dont think enough folks truly internalize this point.

I have 2.4M invested today. if I don't contribute another penny at 10% interest, I'll have 16M in 20 years. Vs If I continue to max both my 401k and 457b, I'll only have 19M. In 30 years? 42M vs 49M. Not to look down at several mil, but it'll be virtually meaningless to my financial picture.

Do the heavy lifting in your 30s and you set yourself and several generations for life.

10M is incredibly easily within reach.
How easy? All you need to do is just have 1M invested by age 40.

if you start working as an attending at 30, just save 5k a month for 10 years=1m at age 40 assuming 10%/yr.

Then? Never save another penny and at age 65 you're at 10M. Don't want to front load? Just save 3k a month for 35 years.

How many hospitalist making at least 300k or more can't save 60k a year including employer contributions for just 10 years? Or just max out their 401k for 35 years (assuming your employer kicks in another 10-12k a year). I'm honestly shocked so few physicians retire with more than 5M.

I am absolutely horrified that there are as many physicians with less than 1m at retirement as there are with 5 plus m.

 

[mmmcdowe]

Ya my monthly spending is currently 25-30k a month. That includes 13k in mortgages and 3k in childcare that'll go away in the next 5 years but I'm assuming when retired I'll probably replace those with traveling. I think in general most physicians earn around 300-400k a year and would want to be able to have that income replaced in retirement hence the 10M figure but I'm in the hcol northeast.

I think 70 percent of current total comp, probably less, is enough. Case and point your current life spend after mortgage and childcare is 9 to 14k. You won't be paying off a mortgage or investing anymore necessarily. Plus you may or may not get some social security.

 

[dpmd]

I think my big question would be why 10 million? It is very doable, but I think I would ask myself "what is my worst case scenario with what I'm doing now?" You end up with 5, 6, 7 million? Realistically, one can live off of that amount indefinitely and do quite well for themselves by changing their investment strategy. You will likely have a paid-off home and be old enough that the newest, fastest cars will hold less appeal. At what point is the hoarding just to see shiny digits versus being a functional thing in your life?

I targeted 2 million because that would cover all my mandatory spending needs. Helps that I live in a lower cost of living place and that I grew up sort of poor (not the kind where there wasn't enough money for food, but the kind where you qualify for free after school program at the boys and girls club and shopping at Pic and save was a splurge) so the kinds of things I am used to in my daily life don't cost a lot (like I am fine with clothing from Costco and generics for hygiene products and food items). Since hitting that number I have allowed myself more luxurious vacations (now we fly first class most of the time) and more often splurge on cute stuff you find in exotic locations (I now have a number of hand painted wooden and ceramic cats on display at home) but still shop at discount stores and thrift stores more than fancy stores. Despite that my net worth continues to grow. Feels very nice to be able to retire if I wanted. I think that helps me enjoy working even when there are frustrations and annoyances.

 

[Nocturnist]

I am absolutely horrified that there are as many physicians with less than 1m at retirement as there are with 5 plus m.

The less than 1M thing absolutely blows my mind every time I see it.

My employer contributes around 6k yearly separately from any match.
So if all one did is never saved a penny but just worked there for 30 years they would automatically have 1M just by having a retirement account opened for them.

Your house should be paid off by then.
Your student loans either paid off by you or forgiven by then.

Other than a terrible divorce or a gambling problem I'm just always like, but how?!?

 

[Monocles]

Wow you guys are really fancy with 9k-14k mortgages! Must be VHCOL, mansions, or unfortunately high mortgage rates!

We specifically moved out of the city (Boston) and were lucky enough to lock into <3% mortgage @ 30 years. Our home isn't small either, it's >3k sqft with nearly an acre lot. I was previously spending nearly my entire weekends doing yardwork and DIY maintenance and can't imagine having anything larger as it would be impossible to keep up.

 

[Monocles]

The less than 1M thing absolutely blows my mind every time I see it.

My employer contributes around 6k yearly separately from any match.
So if all one did is never saved a penny but just worked there for 30 years they would automatically have 1M just by having a retirement account opened for them.

Your house should be paid off by then.
Your student loans either paid off by you or forgiven by then.

Other than a terrible divorce or a gambling problem I'm just always like, but how?!?

There was an interesting statistic that came out this year from WSJ that said top 10% of earners accounted for more than half of spending (58%!!) in the economy.

I believe it too bc anecdotally we see our new neighbours with multiple cars, boats, fancy toys in their driveways. My wife and I joke that we were the last "poors" to squeak into our suburb before the housing market took off. In the past few years many of our middle class neighbours moved away and were replaced with NYCers and west coasters who paid all cash, $100k+ above asking offers to move in.

(They are very nice people though!)

The point is, I could totally see high earners like docs living paycheck to paycheck for decades while in practice and having <$1 million by the time they retire.

 

[Nocturnist]

Wow you guys are really fancy with 9k-14k mortgages! Must be VHCOL, mansions, or unfortunately high mortgage rates!

We specifically moved out of the city (Boston) and were lucky enough to lock into <3% mortgage @ 30 years. Our home isn't small either, it's >3k sqft with nearly an acre lot. I was previously spending nearly my entire weekends doing yardwork and DIY maintenance and can't imagine having anything larger as it would be impossible to keep up.

I wish I had a mansion! I'm in a HCOL area but wouldn't say VHCOL like LA/SF/NYC

Primary home is just under 3k sqft 4 bedroom on a half acre. Bought it for 1.2M with 20% down, 15 year mortgage at 2.75%=8500 a month. 5 years left to pay it off. now worth around 1.7M. Town is top 10 school district in the state but a very modest and completely average house for the town we live in.

Our beach house is 3 bedroom 1800 sqft on an acre. Bought for 750k with 20% down at 2.5%=4500 a month. Worth around 1M today. 10 years left to pay it off.

I hate yardwork so I outsource it. Between landscaping, irrigation, lawn care etc it's about $7500 a year for both homes.

 

[mmmcdowe]

Wow you guys are really fancy with 9k-14k mortgages! Must be VHCOL, mansions, or unfortunately high mortgage rates!

We specifically moved out of the city (Boston) and were lucky enough to lock into <3% mortgage @ 30 years. Our home isn't small either, it's >3k sqft with nearly an acre lot. I was previously spending nearly my entire weekends doing yardwork and DIY maintenance and can't imagine having anything larger as it would be impossible to keep up.

A Big factor has to do with if it's a 30 year or shorter. I think a lot of us have 15 year fixed or shorter.

 

[dpmd]

A Big factor has to do with if it's a 30 year or shorter. I think a lot of us have 15 year fixed or shorter.

My 15 yr mortgage is only 2500. Bought at a good time in a lower cost of living area.

 

[finalpsychyear]

The less than 1M thing absolutely blows my mind every time I see it.

My employer contributes around 6k yearly separately from any match.
So if all one did is never saved a penny but just worked there for 30 years they would automatically have 1M just by having a retirement account opened for them.

Your house should be paid off by then.
Your student loans either paid off by you or forgiven by then.

Other than a terrible divorce or a gambling problem I'm just always like, but how?!?

Friend is in gas and is already 40% of the way to millionaire status 11 mo into attending job but includes residency 401k and earnings.

 

[Splenda88]

Agree with you both, $10M gives you a lot of wiggle room. $300k+ to draw yearly is a pretty big pie, although lifestyle creep will get some folks.

Factoring in slowing down some and inflation, I think I can hit $5M liquid in 5 years and $10M in maybe 10.

How many years have you been an attending?

 

[Splenda88]

Agree with you both, $10M gives you a lot of wiggle room. $300k+ to draw yearly is a pretty big pie, although lifestyle creep will get some folks.

Factoring in slowing down some and inflation, I think I can hit $5M liquid in 5 years and $10M in maybe 10.

10M in today's money is a lot. The 4% safe withdrawal rate was revised to 4.7%

I will take my foot off the gas (or work just to pay for my lifestyle) once my home is paid off and I have 2.5M in the market.

 

[Splenda88]

Do any of you ever struggle with "losing hope" so to speak. What I mean is, I agree $10mil is like the "magic number" I want to hit for retirement (the issue of course being by the time I want to retire in 20 years $10mil = $20mil).

And I feel like that number is entirely out of reach, which then causes me to look at my savings and be like "what am I doing this for." To hit an inflation adjusted $10 mil in 20 years, ASSUMING a 7% inflation adjusted S&P500 return, I'll need to save $14k a month. Even as a somewhat baller hospitalist, I can't touch that. So then I find myself throwing up my hands and saying "well just enjoy life now then"

I've also struggled existentially with seeing the bad morbidity and mortality in the occasional nice normal 30 something year old, and asking myself what if that was me. Which leads down the rabbit hole of "will I even make it to being an old man or should I just enjoy it now"

Thanks for coming to my existential dread TED talk 😆

Luckily this usually ends the same way, which is grinding to hit my arbitrary savings goal early in the year so I can spend "freely" the rest of the year. Just don't scroll up to where I talk about my cars as y'all will be like "yeah, savings"

10M is a lot of money. I feel like most can retire safety with 2-3M plus a paid off home.

 

[eyeeye_captain]

How many years have you been an attending?

Less than 10.

My practice buy in gives me plenty of equity as it was more than my mortgage and is now paid off, but that limited my ramp up since the interest on the loan meant I needed to kill it with fire. Made all the sense in the world to buy in though since it more than doubled my take home. Would’ve been nice to have been able to keep it liquid, but part of the game.

 

[abolt18]

Do any of you ever struggle with "losing hope" so to speak. What I mean is, I agree $10mil is like the "magic number" I want to hit for retirement (the issue of course being by the time I want to retire in 20 years $10mil = $20mil).

And I feel like that number is entirely out of reach, which then causes me to look at my savings and be like "what am I doing this for." To hit an inflation adjusted $10 mil in 20 years, ASSUMING a 7% inflation adjusted S&P500 return, I'll need to save $14k a month. Even as a somewhat baller hospitalist, I can't touch that. So then I find myself throwing up my hands and saying "well just enjoy life now then"

I've also struggled existentially with seeing the bad morbidity and mortality in the occasional nice normal 30 something year old, and asking myself what if that was me. Which leads down the rabbit hole of "will I even make it to being an old man or should I just enjoy it now"

Thanks for coming to my existential dread TED talk

Luckily this usually ends the same way, which is grinding to hit my arbitrary savings goal early in the year so I can spend "freely" the rest of the year. Just don't scroll up to where I talk about my cars as y'all will be like "yeah, savings"

Wait, weren't you talking about driving a Lamborghini or something a while back? Maybe I'm confused.

 

[thumbz]

HAH! Nope that's me. Let me preface this by saying none of this is rational - like I have a solid NW, no debt that I need to carry (I keep my mortgage as SPY outperforms my interest rate handsomely) and am very comfortable. The lambo was actually part of the "live life now" mentality that I referenced above - this year I've put 5 or 6 people my age on hospice due to bad luck (MVA's, cancer) and that made me not want to always just grind to save. And so I cut back and stopped chasing this elusive $10 mil number that everyone wants to hit at the expense of getting to live my life now.

Assuming all things stay average for the next 20 years, I'll retire at 55 incredibly comfortably with $5mil or so in today's dollars. And the trade off for that is getting to drive a lambo now, but then occasionally feeling guilty when I see some of you guys and your impressive savings rates.

You guys are my Joneses that I try to keep up with. And occasionally that leads to these moments of feeling like I'm behind, or may never get there.

 

[eyeeye_captain]

Ain’t nothing wrong with having some fun with your money when you’ve got adequate reserves. You like cars? Cool, enjoy the lambo. Want to get much better work lunches than a friend of mine who only eats PB&J’s? Come on over and we can get good stuff for dinner too.

My household’s love of saving and debt aversion have some familial reasons. 2 of the grandfathers were a ditch digger and a tailor’s assistant/bookbinder, so we’re only 2 generations down from being dirt poor on both sides. We still clip coupons and look for sales out of habit. Our first lifestyle creep to my wife was buying a used Honda when her 10 year old car gave up the ghost.

We never rice and beans’d it, but we’ve been growing more into the F it stage with just doing what we want. I’m just glad I didn’t wind up with someone who was always at that stage and would have been keeping us under the gun.

 

[abolt18]

HAH! Nope that's me. Let me preface this by saying none of this is rational - like I have a solid NW, no debt that I need to carry (I keep my mortgage as SPY outperforms my interest rate handsomely) and am very comfortable. The lambo was actually part of the "live life now" mentality that I referenced above - this year I've put 5 or 6 people my age on hospice due to bad luck (MVA's, cancer) and that made me not want to always just grind to save. And so I cut back and stopped chasing this elusive $10 mil number that everyone wants to hit at the expense of getting to live my life now.

Assuming all things stay average for the next 20 years, I'll retire at 55 incredibly comfortably with $5mil or so in today's dollars. And the trade off for that is getting to drive a lambo now, but then occasionally feeling guilty when I see some of you guys and your impressive savings rates.

You guys are my Joneses that I try to keep up with. And occasionally that leads to these moments of feeling like I'm behind, or may never get there.

Nah, I totally get it. I think the $10M number is far less important. You're crushing it.

If I remember, you have no dependents? No way you need that much! I'm not even convinced I need that much and I'm married with 3 kids.

I do understand your sentiment, however, of saving like crazy, then wondering if you're missing out on too much, so you YOLO a bit, then go back to reflexively saving aggressively.

I think my plan is to quit taking overnight in-house call when I'm 45, then go very part time when I'm 55. By 55, I'll likely be done saving for retirement and will have paid off my mortgage, so I'll just live off my entire reduced income while I let my portfolio grow another 5-10 years. I don't have a set number that I'm targeting other than to save a lot.

We are already loosening the purse strings. It's been very liberating, while sometimes making me feel even more stressed .

 

[mmmcdowe]

Fwiw the problem with the Joneses is that they don't live next door anymore. Because when they did when John Jones brought home a new care you also got to see when he had to sleep in it because his wife threw him out.

So while I love me an expensive suit, I drive an old Honda CRV and don't have a watch, let alone a fancy one, to my name. Fancy hotels overnight with my wife, but I'm all about the 100 dollar budget hotel room with the free crappy coffee 24/7 when I'm alone.

I'm sure others have similar examples to share, but don't feel like you are behind because your rich life should be on your own terms.

 

[Splenda88]

Fwiw the problem with the Joneses is that they don't live next door anymore. Because when they did when John Jones brought home a new care you also got to see when he had to sleep in it because his wife threw him out.

So while I love me an expensive suit, I drive an old Honda CRV and don't have a watch, let alone a fancy one, to my name. Fancy hotels overnight with my wife, but I'm all about the 100 dollar budget hotel room with the free crappy coffee 24/7 when I'm alone.

I'm sure others have similar examples to share, but don't feel like you are behind because your rich life should be on your own terms.

Lol. I have a taste for fancy hotel whenever I travel with the fam. I don't mind spending $600-800/night to have enough space and comfort to accommodate 4 people. If it is not at least 4-star, you won't see me there with the fam.

 

[RangerBob]

10M is a lot of money. I feel like most can retire safety with 2-3M plus a paid off home.

I agree. I'm surprised so many feel they need $10 million. That would provide one with $330k/yr if withdrawing very conservatively (3.3%). That's a lot of money, especially as presumably one's home is paid off in retirement, and one doesn't need to save for retirement anymore or pay off any loans (our biggest three expenses).

If that's what one needs to be happy, that's what one needs. But there's a danger in overworking/over-saving for retirement (one could die/experience too poor of health to enjoy that retirement pot)

We're aiming for $3 million. $4 million would be nice and better hedge against inflation/changes to Social Security. I don't want to die without having had the pleasure of cutting back to part time, or just retiring early.

 

[Splenda88]

I agree. I'm surprised so many feel they need $10 million. That would provide one with $330k/yr if withdrawing very conservatively (3.3%). That's a lot of money, especially as presumably one's home is paid off in retirement, and one doesn't need to save for retirement anymore or pay off any loans (our biggest three expenses).

If that's what one needs to be happy, that's what one needs. But there's a danger in overworking/over-saving for retirement (one could die/experience too poor of health to enjoy that retirement pot)

We're aiming for $3 million. $4 million would be nice and better hedge against inflation/changes to Social Security. I don't want to die without having had the pleasure of cutting back to part time, or just retiring early.

My net worth now is ~1.5 mil and once I cross the 2+ mil and my house is paid off, I am transitioning to part time. I am hoping I can accomplish that in 4-5 yrs.

The good thing about medicine is that you still can make at least 150k/yr (top 10% salary) working part time.

 

[Nocturnist]

I agree. I'm surprised so many feel they need $10 million. That would provide one with $330k/yr if withdrawing very conservatively (3.3%). That's a lot of money, especially as presumably one's home is paid off in retirement, and one doesn't need to save for retirement anymore or pay off any loans (our biggest three expenses).

If that's what one needs to be happy, that's what one needs. But there's a danger in overworking/over-saving for retirement (one could die/experience too poor of health to enjoy that retirement pot)

We're aiming for $3 million. $4 million would be nice and better hedge against inflation/changes to Social Security. I don't want to die without having had the pleasure of cutting back to part time, or just retiring early.

I hear ya.

I think the world divides into 3 kinds of people: some who will save much more than they could possibly ever need (they often die with more than they retired with), the majority who have a snowball's chance of ever saving close to what they'll need, and very few who can thread the needle and die with zero.

it's much sexier to talk about that one person we all know who sacrificed and saved for a day they never got to see and say "f it! yolo!" But the much more likely scenario is most of us living into our 80s and 90s with chronic illness and needing long term care. So yes, there's the "risk" of dying too early to enjoy the fruits of our labor. Not sure I would call it a "danger". If there was danger in *pearl clutching* god forbid not squeezing every bit of hedonistic experiences out of life, we'd might as well all just go ahead and be coke heads. To me, the real "danger" is running out of money too soon and having no idea how much longer i might live. What will I do then? Sell my house? Be a burden to my children? I am much, more more terrified of running out too soon than *gasp* not ever flying first class and leaving millions to my kids and grandkids or charity. But the fomo is real, i very much get that.

I do agree that 5M would be reasonable in 90% of scenarios today. I'm targeting 10 because it'll be today's 5M in 24-36 years with 2-3% inflation, and that's an optimistic scenario. 330k is alot today but will be the equivalent of 100-150k in 30 years.

 

[RangerBob]

I hear ya.

I think the world divides into 3 kinds of people: some who will save much more than they could possibly ever need (they often die with more than they retired with), the majority who have a snowball's chance of ever saving close to what they'll need, and very few who can thread the needle and die with zero.

it's much sexier to talk about that one person we all know who sacrificed and saved for a day they never got to see and say "f it! yolo!" But the much more likely scenario is most of us living into our 80s and 90s with chronic illness and needing long term care. So yes, there's the "risk" of dying too early to enjoy the fruits of our labor. Not sure I would call it a "danger". If there was danger in *pearl clutching* god forbid not squeezing every bit of hedonistic experiences out of life, we'd might as well all just go ahead and be coke heads. To me, the real "danger" is running out of money too soon and having no idea how much longer i might live. What will I do then? Sell my house? Be a burden to my children? I am much, more more terrified of running out too soon than *gasp* not ever flying first class and leaving millions to my kids and grandkids or charity. But the fomo is real, i very much get that.

I do agree that 5M would be reasonable in 90% of scenarios today. I'm targeting 10 because it'll be today's 5M in 24-36 years with 2-3% inflation, and that's an optimistic scenario. 330k is alot today but will be the equivalent of 100-150k in 30 years.

By all means, if that's what will make you comfortable then go for it. I just don't think it's what most of us need to aim for.

I don't advocate hedonism at all. Far from it. I think we should all aim to be useful members of society, long into old age. The concept of early retirement baffles me. Unless one "retires" into part-time work or another field, in which case I 100% support it. Likewise if one retires into caring for their parents or their grandkids.

I simultaneously believe in spending time with loved ones, and we work too hard here in the US. My goal is to work "hard" (40-50hrs/week--I'm in PM&R...) a few more years. Then maybe back down to "sort of part-time," with the goal of working maybe 20-30hrs/week and having lots of free time with family on a regular basis. I should be able to keep that up until age 65-75.