How much studying/reading do radiologist do compared with other specialties?

[IJL]

I've always heard it's a very cerebral field that requires a lot of reading/studying (which is one of the reasons I'm drawn to it), but why is this exactly?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[DrBowtie]

There is little scut in radiology. You're worthless unless you can dictate out films. In other fields, they always need an order/note writer.

 

[cowme]

Based on my experience, ~1 hr/night is necessary to be competent

 

[Silent Cool]

Based on my experience, ~1 hr/night is necessary to be competent

Hrm. Is that really "a lot?" People make it sound like you have to spend every waking minute devouring books.

 

[cowme]

Most people you encounter on SDN aren't satisfied with being merely competent.

When you look at a 4th year resident's bookshelf, it can be pretty daunting. Some residents read a 300-500 page textbook every month.

Hell, the introductory radiology text that most first years finish is nearly 2000 pages.

But these are still picture books at the end of the day. Sticking to a 1-2 hour/day routine, it is not nearly as bad as people make it sound (at least as a first year, when we have practically 0 call responsible)

 

[konRAD 1]

Agreed. I think at least an hour a night is necessary to be competent. In the end, paying attention at conference and during readout helps a lot and for a lot of residents comprises a significant portion of their learning.

 

[yoyoniner]

Hrm. Is that really "a lot?" People make it sound like you have to spend every waking minute devouring books.

I would say 1 hr per night is a lot when you consider you are working and reading during the day 60-70 hrs per week as a resident.

 

[MossPoh]

One hour a night builds up a lot when you factor in a full work day and other life responsibilities. If someone has a spouse and kids, it is a tremendous amount of time.

 

[penguin24]

Working all day and many weekends as a resident can get pretty tiring. This isn't like med school where you get out at 3pm every weekday and had every weekend off.

 

[shark2000]

You need to study a lot. The more you need, the better you get.

If your program has good didactics, that can also help a lot.

If your program is teaching oriented with a lot of time dedicated to resident teaching in reading room, that is perfect.

I would say 1 hour a day is good amount of reading. It is not as easy as you guys think. Many days you are on call, there are overnight rotations, there are all family and friend gathering, there are times that you get really tired after a long day of work.

 

[badasshairday]

I have trouble sitting through lectures. All through undergrad, med school, internship, I day dream a lot. I don't know how I will pay attention during rads conference unless they are hot seat types.

 

[xrevision]

I also know that radiation oncologists read a lot during residency. So I think it depends on whether or not you're going into a cerebral field like radiology, pathology, radiation oncology, etc.

 

[shark2000]

With all respect, I doubt the amount of reading in radiation oncology or pathology is near what radiology is.
There is a difference between having the required knowledge, having an excellent knowledge or being an expert. Radiology has many sub fields and it is not possible to have the highest level of knowledge on all of them. That's why people do fellowships.

Let's say Body imaging. You have to abnormalities of all intra-abdominal organs from Liver, to kidney to bowel to Uterus. This include all the infection, neoplasm, stone, IBD, .... Making things more complex, if you want to provide high quality reads, you have to know the staging for each cancer. I don't mean the exact stages, but you have to know what are the important imaging aspects of each staging, like lymph nodes, peri-organ fat stranding, ......

The other specturm belongs to many surgical fields. Many do not read that much, since most of the focus of their field is on obtaining the required skills.

 

[xrevision]

I don't doubt it, Rad Onc is just another specialty that requires a lot of reading. I personally don't have first hand knowledge to compare the two to each other.

 

[colbgw02]

Working all day and many weekends as a resident can get pretty tiring. This isn't like med school where you get out at 3pm every weekday and had every weekend off.

I wish I went to your med school.

 

[badasshairday]

I wish I went to your med school.

He is prob talking about med school radiology electives.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

With all respect, I doubt the amount of reading in radiation oncology or pathology is near what radiology is.
There is a difference between having the required knowledge, having an excellent knowledge or being an expert. Radiology has many sub fields and it is not possible to have the highest level of knowledge on all of them. That's why people do fellowships.

Let's say Body imaging. You have to abnormalities of all intra-abdominal organs from Liver, to kidney to bowel to Uterus. This include all the infection, neoplasm, stone, IBD, .... Making things more complex, if you want to provide high quality reads, you have to know the staging for each cancer. I don't mean the exact stages, but you have to know what are the important imaging aspects of each staging, like lymph nodes, peri-organ fat stranding, ......

The other specturm belongs to many surgical fields. Many do not read that much, since most of the focus of their field is on obtaining the required skills.

Not to disagree, but I totally disagree. I'm not going to compare radiology to radiation oncology or other fields to each other, but to say we don't require a large amount of reading is misleading to say the least.

Like you guys, we have to know physics, and radiobiology. We have to know a decent amount of anatomy since we treat every site in the body, but most importantly we have to learn how to apply radiation clinically in regards to chemo, surgery and how they relate to different kinds cancers. Not to mention all the literature and evidence supporting our treatment. We have to know how to manage our patients symptoms, discuss various treatment options. So although I'm biased, I think it's fair to say that a radiation oncologist reads a lot.

 

[colbgw02]

He is prob talking about med school radiology electives.

Haha - maybe. That would make more sense.

Then again, if I see a med student - even one applying to my program - after noon conference, then I tell them to get lost. So who are these cruel people making rad med studs stay until 3pm?

 

[cowme]

I have trouble sitting through lectures. All through undergrad, med school, internship, I day dream a lot. I don't know how I will pay attention during rads conference unless they are hot seat types.

Agreed. I have a very tough time focusing/retaining information from didactic lectures. Case conferences, however, are always great for teaching. On service-teaching is great too, but I think a lot of teaching has been sacrificed on busy services with increasing volume.

Reading is essential to supplement the day to day work. you may get by without it, but you will probably look like an idiot.

 

[DrBowtie]

Anyone care to share their approach for each new rotation? Read B&H section plus as much requisites as possible? Just trying to grasp how fast I'll need to be up to speed.

 

[colbgw02]

Anyone care to share their approach for each new rotation? Read B&H section plus as much requisites as possible? Just trying to grasp how fast I'll need to be up to speed.

I own B&H, but I never found it adequate for reading during a specific rotation. Perhaps I'm in the minority, but I really consider it more of a reference text. In my opinion, most decent subspecialty-specific texts will outshine B&H for nightly reading.

Some Requisites are very good; others are not. I would not automatically use them as a go-to text. My personal opinion is that the neuro and ultrasound Requisites are worth reading, particularly once you get beyond the bad humor in the neuro version. The MSK Requisites is also vastly improved from old editions. The IR Requisites is decent, but it functions chiefly on a conceptual level, whereas I found Kandarpa much more useful for practical purposes.

Much of what you will read will depend on your program. My experience has varied from no guidance vis-a-vis textbooks, to favoring a specific text, to exact reading assignments. B&H and Primer are safe purchases prior to residency. Otherwise, I would hold off until you have a better idea of your programs' preferences. These books aren't cheap, after all. There's no need to spend money on books that will do nothing more than look impressive on a shelf.

 

[penguin24]

I wish I went to your med school.

Come on dude, M1 & M2 were all about didactics and lectures can't go very far into the afternoon b/c ppl know the mind can only handle so much lecture.

Then comes M3 year; any med student who thinks they are an impt part of the team is freaking nuts. Med students are just a decoration on the Christmas tree, and there is no point in staying past 3pm when all the residents are gunning to get the work done to get out of the hospital.

Then comes M4, which is nothing more than a glorified vacation.

As a resident, even when I was an intern on a medicine rotation, I never made a med student stay past 3pm, total waste of their time.

 

[viper930]

Come on dude, M1 & M2 were all about didactics and lectures can't go very far into the afternoon b/c ppl know the mind can only handle so much lecture.

Then comes M3 year; any med student who thinks they are an impt part of the team is freaking nuts. Med students are just a decoration on the Christmas tree, and there is no point in staying past 3pm when all the residents are gunning to get the work done to get out of the hospital.

Then comes M4, which is nothing more than a glorified vacation.

As a resident, even when I was an intern on a medicine rotation, I never made a med student stay past 3pm, total waste of their time.

this. learning on one's own, if one chooses to do so, >>>> "bedside" learning in rotations which is an antiquated waste of time. medical students who "work" long hours are really just delusional imo and like to think that they are serving an important purpose when in reality they are not.

 

[shark2000]

Anyone care to share their approach for each new rotation? Read B&H section plus as much requisites as possible? Just trying to grasp how fast I'll need to be up to speed.

I personally found B&H useless even for a first year resident. It has talked about everything and at the same time the level of knowledge is very superficial.

Most useful tool is to read anatomy and also read about the cases you see everyday. Also try to read as much cases as you can when you are on the service. I hope it helps.

Neuro requisites, was a killer. I don't know whether there is a new edition or not, but when I was a resident 3-4 years ago, it was more than enough to become Neuro CAQ. Don't read it, it will not stick.

 

[badasshairday]

Neuro requisites, was a killer. I don't know whether there is a new edition or not, but when I was a resident 3-4 years ago, it was more than enough to become Neuro CAQ. Don't read it, it will not stick.

So what the hell should we do for neuro?

 

[shark2000]

So what the hell should we do for neuro?

I didn't mean not to read it during residency. I meant don't read it during your first rotation. Sorry for the mistake.

I started with Castillo's book. Basic book, but has great images and also is good for first rotation.

In your 2nd, 3rd and 4th do requisites. It is still a killer. But after first year, you know what to read and what not to read. It is a very good reference book, but you have to skip half of chapters and half of paragraphs. That is why I believe you should not use it as a first year.

Have not seen Osborn's new book. It seems it is a good book.

For every subject (not only neuro), supplement your readings with statdx and also articles. Some of the best studying material are the radiographics articles. After your first year, you should start reading articles. They are overall better than reading a text cover to cover.

My recommended study material:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=978440

 

[colbgw02]

Come on dude, M1 & M2 were all about didactics and lectures can't go very far into the afternoon b/c ppl know the mind can only handle so much lecture.

Then comes M3 year; any med student who thinks they are an impt part of the team is freaking nuts. Med students are just a decoration on the Christmas tree, and there is no point in staying past 3pm when all the residents are gunning to get the work done to get out of the hospital.

Then comes M4, which is nothing more than a glorified vacation.

As a resident, even when I was an intern on a medicine rotation, I never made a med student stay past 3pm, total waste of their time.

The bolded part above is a different point altogether than your previous post. I don't disagree that MS3s, at best, are of marginal utility, but that didn't stop them from keeping me around routinely for 14 hours a day. If your MS3 experience wasn't like that, then I wish I went to your med school.

 

[viper930]

The bolded part above is a different point altogether than your previous post. I don't disagree that MS3s, at best, are of marginal utility, but that didn't stop them from keeping me around routinely for 14 hours a day. If your MS3 experience wasn't like that, then I wish I went to your med school.

I think the only times I "worked" more than 14 hours during MS3 were for L&D and trauma call shifts.

 

[penguin24]

The bolded part above is a different point altogether than your previous post. I don't disagree that MS3s, at best, are of marginal utility, but that didn't stop them from keeping me around routinely for 14 hours a day. If your MS3 experience wasn't like that, then I wish I went to your med school.

I see what you mean. I could never tell a bold faced lie when the resident would ask me if I would rather go home or stay longer in the hospital. Even to this day, when my Attendings ask me if I would rather go home or stay and dictate a few more studies, I head towards the exit and don't look back. Don't get me wrong, as a med student I was AOA w/ +260's on my boards and matched to a top rads residency. I work hard, just don't like working for no good reason, like staying late in the OR holding a retractor, or as they called it at my institution, 'the Iron Intern'.

As it says in the House of God: 'Show me a med student who only triples my work, and I will kiss his feet'.

As a resident, I go out of my way to teach the med students who rotate w/ me, especially if they are going into Radiology. I just don't think they are paying attention in the late afternoon, so I do both of us a favor and let them go home early. On Fridays, I forbid them from showing up to the reading room in the afternoon.