How often do you encounter patients from other countries with no travel insurance...

[TooMuchResearch]

I had a hypotensive lower GI bleed visiting family from Taiwan who insisted on discharge once I got his BP up. I told him I wasn't sure the flight home was a great idea.

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[TooMuchResearch]

Um, I didn't quote right.

 

[thegenius]

So you're cool with an illegal immigrant committing a criminal offense and letting them off the hook but not for one who may commit a civil offense?

No I'm not cool with people committing crimes. But I realize there is theory and ethics, and then the actual practice and implementation with "applied" civics (so to speak.)

This really is about resources. If the only problem we had with illegals were they were sneaking over the border, going into a Walgreens, and stealing a bottle of shampoo costing $4 and then quickly going back to their own country, then I would not advocate spending billions of dollars posting ICE agents in all the Walgreens and similar stores for the intent of capturing and deporting the illegal grandmas before they commit that petty crime.

Instead I would rather just have our government buy 25,000,000 bottles of shampoo (total $1B) and give them to the other countries.


Isn't housing and food an fundamental right too? I get the argument that health care is a fundamental right, but we are taking it as far as "if you come into my country, I will pay for your dialysis indefinitely?" or "we will pay for you to get a pacemaker or a G-tube?"

I'm surprised there are no people clamoring to give all non-citizens a free condominium and food.

 

[GeneralVeers]

g it as far as "if you come into my country, I will pay for your dialysis indefinitely?" or "we will pay for you to get a pacemaker or a G-tube?"

I'm surprised there are no people clamoring to give all non-citizens a free condominium and food.

It's always been odd to me that healthcare is "right" but not food, clothing or shelter? One would think we'd want to get those basic rights sorted first before moving on to something as complex as healthcare. They are using it as an argument to take over 20% of the economy, and ultimately control all of us.

 

[miacomet]

I don't think healthcare (except for inmates), clothing, shelter (except in certain rare localities, like NYC) are considered rights in the US. EMTALA hardly amounts to a right to much care. Guns, yes, public education, yes, free speech, mostly, but the others are not enshrined as rights here ASFAIK.

 

[gro2001]

I don't think healthcare (except for inmates), clothing, shelter (except in certain rare localities, like NYC) are considered rights in the US. EMTALA hardly amounts to a right to much care. Guns, yes, public education, yes, free speech, mostly, but the others are not enshrined as rights here ASFAIK.

I think what most people mean when they say healthcare is a right is really more that it should be a publicly guaranteed utility, rather than an actual unalienable right in the political philosophy sense of the word. Like the fire department. It's not my right to be rescued from a burning building (in the Lockian, natural rights kind of sense, since I don't have a right to anyone else's labor or a right to someone else's life), but we mostly all agree that this is a basic kind service that should be provided to everyone just because they are human. Like, I wouldn't want to have that be contingent on me being financially solvent, or a citizen, or whatever. That's my mindset and I think also that of most people who use the shorthand "healthcare is a right".

 

[wamcp]

I think what most people mean when they say healthcare is a right is really more that it should be a publicly guaranteed utility, rather than an actual unalienable right in the political philosophy sense of the word. Like the fire department. It's not my right to be rescued from a burning building (in the Lockian, natural rights kind of sense, since I don't have a right to anyone else's labor or a right to someone else's life), but we mostly all agree that this is a basic kind service that should be provided to everyone just because they are human. Like, I wouldn't want to have that be contingent on me being financially solvent, or a citizen, or whatever. That's my mindset and I think also that of most people who use the shorthand "healthcare is a right".

Why is food and shelter not treated the same then?

Because these are largely individual problems. A fire can kill multiple people and properties. Lack of food or shelter or lack of dialysis is only harms the one individual, not the general public.

Exception of course would be certain infectious diseases

 

[gro2001]

Why is food and shelter not treated the same then?

Because these are largely individual problems. A fire can kill multiple people and properties. Lack of food or shelter or lack of dialysis is only harms the one individual, not the general public.

Exception of course would be certain infectious diseases

Food and shelter are treated the same way in most societies. We make efforts to not have people be left out on the street or starving to death. Even the red states have homeless shelters and SNAP benefits. Now, particularly with homeless shelters, there are many complicating factors that make this problem really hard to solve, but at least in principle housing is offered to people. And while the communal safety aspect plays into the fire scenario, it is only a part of the justification. Surely we'd find a society strange and abhorrent in which when fires occurred that only endangered one person (single car fire, stand alone house, etc) our rescue efforts would be contingent on that person's deservingness.

If you mean why aren't people arguing that access to homeless shelters and food stamps be extended wider to include more people including those that can't produce proof of citizenship (which a huge percentage of native born American poor can not by the way), then they certainly are. I argue that. But those are largely state controlled programs, so that issue won't come up as much in a presidential debate or even in general conversation that much given the nationalization of state politics.

 

[OneTwoThreeFour]

Healthcare spending in the United States is 3.5 trillion dollars annually (Historical - Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services). Federal spending is approximately 1 trillion dollars. The best estimate I have found is that undocumented immigrants account for a maximum of 18 billion dollars, 11 billion federal -and this is from Forbes, not typically a very liberal publication (How American Citizens Finance $18.5 Billion In Health Care For Unauthorized Immigrants). Undocumented immigrants are 3% of the population yet make up 1% of the cost. This is not some "scourge" or drain on our system; just like caravans coming over the border, this is a boogeyman of an argument.

 

[GeneralVeers]

Totally NOT an invasion.....

 

[d2305]

 

[gyngyn]

This thread is has gone entirely off topic.
Closing.