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Shh, you're saying the quiet part out loud.
How can we protect our patients against ICE?
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Shh, you're saying the quiet part out loud.
The entire legal system disagrees with you. See Wong Wing v US (1896).
Also, in regards to crime... from the left wing socialist ::checks notes:: Cato Institute...
"Although immigrants do occasionally commit heinous crimes, they are less likely to do so than native-born Americans. This is no comfort to the victims and their loved ones, but it is information that policymakers can use to craft better immigration and anti-crime policies."
1. A court case 120 years later sets the intent of the original document? Not buying it.
2. s/ "Yeah, and medical errors are like, the third leading cause of death. It's those greedy, careless DOCTORS that are the problem."
Bruh. Listen... you enter a nation illegally, any nation, you've committed a serious crime. Why do we have to be different? See my post about Hans, Fritz, and their Steyr AUGs earlier.
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1. So I guess Marbury v Madison (1803) doesn't count either because it's older? I bet that SCOTUS will be surprised that judicial review has expired. What's the use by date for court cases anyways? The fact is that until SOCTUS says otherwise, that is the precedent by which the court system will use to say that when the US Constitution says, "people" it includes illegal immigrants.
Does the US Constitution have an expiration date? It's even older, so I guess the Bill of Rights is null and void until they get passed again.
2. "Illegal immigrants are violent criminals." :: posts research showing that they commit violent crimes at a significant lower rate than US citizens and legal immigrants from a conservative think tank:: "Well, illegal entry is just as bad as MURDER!"
Do you have actual evidence to back up what you're saying, or are you arguing that your feelings outweigh research?
I mean they’ve already committed a crime by being here illegally. So that’s strike number that just being here, they are all criminals of so sort. Lastly, even if out of every 100,000 illegals that are here and only 1 commits a heinous crime… that’s one heinous crime that could and should have easily been avoided. It’s easy to say it’s only a statistic until you or a loved one becomes that statistic.
Sorry but if you’re here and you shouldn’t be… low level sympathy for you🤷♂️.
Im not wading deep into this but regarding illegal immigrants and crime. I think (key word) peoples opinion is that crimes committed by US citizens are “inevitable” and crimes committed by illegal immigrants are not.
For me as a fiscal conservative the question is do these illegal immigrants give us more than they take.
I know this is controversial and you can find data on both sides.
That being said my gut (I know feelings) is that they are a net drain. Upside they work hard, do low wage work that most Americans dont want to do etc.
That being said the costs of educating, providing healthcare etc seems to outweigh this. Again, you can find data on both sides of things. My personal experience with illegal immigrants is overwhelmingly positive. I grew up in a city that was majority immigrants. I lived in NYC, Chicago, Phoenix, Tucson as well.
The question isnt about violent crime in my mind. Again, I realize that it is my own view. That being said it’s not an either / or regarding illegals and violent crime. It is additive to the baseline violent crime we have here in the US. It is additive to the crappy US schools, using healthcare resources which we all see in the ED.
Do Us citizens have problems? For sure.. but these are external issues that people may think is unneeded and overall not a net positive (I am uncertain personally on this point).
I dont think a bunch of docs having some legal argument makes sense. You know there are constitutional scholars and I’ll let them weigh in on things they are experts in. Will trump be able to redefine birthright citizenship. Seems like a stretch but I am not legal scholar.
Many legal scholars think the Roe V Wade decision was judicial overreach. Some people hate the Dobbs decision. The overturning of the Chevron Doctrine etc. People hate Citizens United. I have opinions on the rules but I am not an expert on the legal arguments there.
I have an opinion that as the economics of a country get better people start to worry and care more about social issues such as LGBTQ rights, Medicare for All etc. I think the interesting part of trumps victory and the push back against the “woke” movement is that economically things seem pretty strong. Makes me wonder if the overreach was that far on social issues.
The research shows people overwhelmingly oppose transgenderism in sports.
You just love strawman stuff.
It doesn't expire, but it's prone to deliberate misinterpretation by people such as yourself, which is like, your favorite thing to do apparently.
It's not hard to understand, bro.
Remembrance Project - Wikipedia
Most undocumented workers are coming from places that our country had a direct hand in destabilizing, and they're coming to do work that is far more likely to benefit you then they are to commit a crime that harms you. You're unlikely to have been the victim of a crime committed by an immigrant but you've almost certainly enjoyed lower prices and/or high stock market returns because of their labor.
But despite this, you're willing to cede control of country to someone that doesn't care about it at all just so you don't have to experience the discomfort of being around people from a different culture?
But despite this, you're willing to cede control of country to someone that doesn't care about it at all just so you don't have to experience the discomfort of being around people from a different culture?
Wow. That's how other nations treat noncitizens. Why do we have to be different?
Wanna see something wild? Go over to the expat threads on reddit and watch as people lose their minds when they "figure it out" that they can't just up and kick it in Switzerland for teh lolz because OrangeManBad.
Where's the tantrum when you can't transfer an intubated 3 year old? The righteous indignation when team health cuts your hours during a pandemic? The outrage when you're forced to answer to a complaint when so and so on the govt dole didn't feel like you listened to them and so threatens your livelihood with an angry letter?
What is this garbage? People are only allowed to care about one things at a time? And if that thing doesn't gets fixed, they're never allowed to talk or complaint about anything else? People care about all those things, that's not with this thread is about.
Me personally, I would not physically block but I would not assist in anyway if ICE showed up. Just like if the police came in an scooped an unstable trauma patient, I have no ability to stop them and document to minimize any medical libaility I have. I will also not go ahead and call ice on the many undocumented getting dialysis at my hospitals which I suspect some docs here would more than happy to do so.
Just like you didn't have the balls to stand up for yourself during COVID, you will fold the second an ICE agent steps into your ED.
Lol
I had to do a lot of standing up for us during Covid. Bad times.
But again, I’m personally not interested in being arrested for interfering with ice. I AM interested in rule of law, and just like knowing if the local PD can compel you to draw blood in an uncooperative arrested person, it’s not unreasonable to learn the basics about what ice can / cannot do.
Wanna come here and work? Cool. Love to have you. Let's do it legally.
Wanna come here and commit more crimes; like you did wherever you're from? Uhh, no thanks.
Sounds to me like the people who CARE about the country... are now in control.
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Gonna vote for this thread to be closed/moved if this is emblematic of its departure from practical medical discussion surrounding legal rights of staff and/or patients in the ED.
Gonna vote for you to return your image to that anime character because I liked it better.
My gut feeling, and I believe you'd likely agree with me, is that they're keeping prices low for the average consumer (especially at the grocery store, in construction, and in everyday hospitality) as well as allowing business owners in said industries to either stay afloat or have a higher margin.
The linked articles creates a definition of financial drain that boils down to taxes in minus welfare out (including to US-citizen children). The very questionable inclusion of benefits to US citizen children aside, I find that sort of simplistic approach somewhat reminiscent of when hospital administrators tell every non-surgical department that they lose the hospital tons of money.
Anyways, I'm not going to get into what should be done about illegal immigration, but I do think a lot of nuance gets lost in these conversations.
Acceptable .
Agreed all around but throw in the costs for education, healthcare, food stamps etc who knows the real impact. They do keep prices low on those items but they also keep wages low for many of those jobs. Thats the rub. When I lived in AZ I could get impressive tile/stone work done for under $15/hr.
The white laborers hated it. They wanted and needed more money. Again, the challenge is the math is complicated. If you could snap your fingers and remove illegal labor. Prices would go up but so would wages for the low end workers. One could argue it would impact and improve things for those at the lower end of the wage scale by a lot.
We of course perhaps would then collect more in taxes as well.
Hard to know how much is paid in wages under the table. Estimates are quite high but some of that certainly goes to illegals.
This estimate is $2T a year under the table.
We agree I assume that the math on net win/loss is complex.
It's actually very important to do so. ICE routinely dissembles on this point. It must be a judge-signed warrant.
I disagree with most of the posts in this thread. It is not sufficient to hand over the issue to hospital security, who might be ill-informed and under-educated on this issue. One small mistake can come at a dire cost for the patient.
Although I am aware of the counter-perspective and agree the calculation is complex, I think the population decline really points to the need for more immigration, not less:
Of course, my opposition to militarized borders is ethical, not purely economic.
sure.. i do think our immigration policy is way more lax than european countries. I would be curious what is your ethical opposition to a militarized border?
I am equally opposed to the militarized borders of Europe.
My ethical opposition to militarized borders is that they kill people, separate families, and prevent the human freedom to migrate. Borders are themselves forged in blood and militarized by racist nativism and cultural chauvinism, with little acknowledgement of colonial and neo-colonial legacies, highly relevant to the current “crisis” on our southern border. Average American knows nothing of the devastation wrought (and continued to be wrought) on Latin America by the United States. “We are here because you were there.”
But mostly my opposition is rooted in the fact that militarized borders kill human beings and separate families. I would also use Rawls’s veil of ignorance as my starting point for ethical reflection. None of us would argue for militarized borders if we were born to the wrong womb in a poor and war-torn country, and we would surely think it unfair that a country with five percent of the world’s population consumes a quarter of the world’s resources.
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From an ethical standpoint, allowing a large number of people with precarious legal status to exist in the country is only exposing them to a significant risk of exploitation. Even if your policy of choice is that anyone should be able to migrate to the US, I don't think it's morally justifiable for it to happen under the table. If you work backwards from the fact that you want everyone in a country to have a valid legal status, I don't see how you don't end up with needing to enforce some sort of border policy (or a one-world government, I guess).
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I alluded to this in my earlier post, but this is even further muddied by the fact that much of those education, healthcare, and foot stamp costs are going to US Citizen children.
I think you could make the argument that farm workers' wages going up could make up for the price of food staples going up. But I don't see how that extends to many other lower-wage fields and lower middle class workers (teachers, secretarial workers, etc.). Maybe indirectly through good ol' inflation (everything costs more, so everyone makes more), but I don't believe historically that has worked out well for people at the lower end of the wage scale.
I don't think the country would fall apart without illegal labor, but I do think people are severely underestimating the growing pains that scenario will cause and how it disproportionally would affect people who already are not in great financial positions. I don't say that to justify illegal immigration (read my post above for my thoughts on the ethics of that scenario), but instead to point out that any policy discussion which ends at deportation+border comes across as half-baked to me.
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I agree it would be painful and some people would lose out. However if you start with the premise that illegals / undocumented people do low wage work, fewer of them would lead to an increase in wages for people to work those jobs. Frankly we see it now. Post COVID the cost of labor went nuts. Why? No people to do the work. I had multiple landscape companies come out and to give quotes. They quoted me their charge of $65/man hour. This is for an unskilled worker.
We had some roofing work done on our house and the contractor told me he was losing some of the labor to other contractors who were paying his guys $100/hr.
If teachers could make 2x their money for a job the wages for teaching would have to go up.
It is an alternative way to shrink the gap between high and low wage workers. My kid is looking for jobs like working in fast food and other high school type jobs. They are paying $14-18/hr. Minimum wage is $7.25/hr. They arent paying more for any reason other than supply/demand.
Again, removing the supply of low wage workers and voila their wages will go up or their job will be replaced by a machine.
I do know much of the educational costs are for US citizens. Not all. Much of the healthcare costs I refer to are not.
I believe we need borders otherwise you all end up broke. If the US didnt everyone would come for their free share. Eventually, the system breaks.
I do agree that life is incredibly not fair. Born to the wrong parents or in the wrong country and life looks different. That being said i am not a believer in socialism so I am ok with that. Some people are lucky, some are not. Some people work hard and never catch a break. Others do little and everything seems to fall into place. This is the way it is. I am ok with it.
I used to work on the border for a bit. This will never happen, in fact ICE agents did the reverse and tended to bring every illegal in with even the slightest issue so as to be absolved of liability. I can't imagine any of the agents wanting to take the risk of removing a patient before being "medically cleared". Much ado about nothing.
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I always thought that being a good clinical emergency physician was hard enough without the distractions of extraneous passions in the workplace. Now, it seems like a lot of you want to complicate your practice by mixing in your political advocacy. Sounds like a great way to suck at taking care of sick people.
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"Militarized borders kill people".
Uhh, bro? That's why we have borders... and a military... because there were big problems when there weren't? Borders and militaries solved those problems.
Step over THIS line, and there will be consequences. No, you can't do (that) here. We don't do it that way. It will ruin our society.
I mean, if it's cool for anyone to go anywhere and do anything they want to improve whatever, then let's get BACK to colonialism. Wait, that WASN'T a good thing? Okay... So we don't want colonies of outsiders coming in and doing things THEIR way, HERE? So... now we're back where we started.
Maan.
Issues that will essentially never affect ER docs but you will see one occasional story making huge headlines where ICE showed up to pick up an unfortunate illegal immigrant day laborer but the story never revealed he was on the top 10 wanted list with murder charges.
You ER doc is a 1099 or W2 employee. You are no different than the guy cleaning the floors in the ER.
You Er doc is not the leader of the ER. You have little say in what happens in the ER. You have no more authority than the guy cleaning the floor.
You ER doc have no idea what the rules are and no reason to even understand the rules. You know as much as the guy cleaning the floor.
You ER doc try to make the pt feel better and decide what is their best course. You do a valuable job just as much as the guy cleaning the floor.
When the guy cleaning the floor cares about ICE, then I will care about ICE.
Until then, I am pointing them towards the charge nurse or AOC. If ICE comes in wanting to take the pt away, I am not standing in their Way. If Ice takes a guy away before I complete my evaluation, I am not standing in their way. My first action will be to walk away from the situation and go care for the other just as imp 10 pts in the ER while AOC figures this out.
You ER doc is a 1099 or W2 employee. You are no different than the guy cleaning the floors in the ER.
You Er doc is not the leader of the ER. You have little say in what happens in the ER. You have no more authority than the guy cleaning the floor.
You ER doc have no idea what the rules are and no reason to even understand the rules. You know as much as the guy cleaning the floor.
You ER doc try to make the pt feel better and decide what is their best course. You do a valuable job just as much as the guy cleaning the floor.
When the guy cleaning the floor cares about ICE, then I will care about ICE.
Until then, I am pointing them towards the charge nurse or AOC. If ICE comes in wanting to take the pt away, I am not standing in their Way. If Ice takes a guy away before I complete my evaluation, I am not standing in their way. My first action will be to walk away from the situation and go care for the other just as imp 10 pts in the ER while AOC figures this out.
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People with this reductionist viewpoint have a temporocentric mindset that the mean evil people in the now time displaced the people in the before time and those people had a "right" to be there. When really, the history of the world, and it's future, is a story of constant migration, war, strife, suffering, achievement, poverty, and accomplishment.
Those people who you think we're so unjustly ousted, ousted someone else before that, who ousted someone else before that, etc etc.
Bro, I feel like I have to "Rick and Morty" it for people sometimes on here.
That article makes a completely unsupported conclusion. They never studied the rates at which illegal immigrants commit crimes. They studied the rates at which they are convicted of crimes, specifically murder.
That's a big difference.
There are some serious confounding factors at play here that could explain why illegal immigrants in this study are convicted of murder at a lower rate than native born Americans.
First of all, illegal immigrants are clearly prone to crossing the border whenever they want. Next, this conclusion was based on Texas data. It doesn't take much critical thinking to realize that someone who snuck across the border with Mexico into Texas might be able to easily evade conviction after committing a murder by simply crossing the border back into Mexico.
I can't believe this article was published. It's junk.
They didn't present any data about the frequency at which various demographic groups commit crimes or are even charged with crimes. They only analyzed the conviction rate.
You didn't post any research showing they commit less violent crimes. See above.
It is interesting how people bemoan the notion of our southern border being militarized, but don’t bat an eye at the 1 million or so landmines and 30,000 US soldiers that we have stationed along the DMZ keeping the NorKs on their side of the lawn.
The same reason why people had all sorts of opinions to share about Israel/Gaza but don't care about any of the other world conflicts.
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This is now unrelated to the immigration topic at hand, but to clarify, are you saying that no societal action can be considered unjust because history is full of suffering and the ancestors of every affected group have committed similar actions in the past?
I'm saying you need to zoom out.
And until we reach star trek utopia, this is the norm of planet earth, so why spike your cortisol over it?
What he's saying is the self flagellation that is so en vogue over (chosen group and point in history) is dumb on several levels.
What does not spiking your cortisol mean to you? Can I say, for example, "What China is doing to the Uyghurs is wrong" or is the appropriate "zoomed out" take really "The Uyghurs ousted some other group to settle where they are, so who am I to judge the CCP?"?
Self-flagellation can be really dumb, yes. But the moral nihilism of saying "the history of the world, and it's future, is a story of constant migration, war, ..." to side-step thinking about morality certainly gives it a run for its money.
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This one made me laugh at the phrase "nontrivial" because 75% of the citizens in that hospital are in the newborn nursery.
I tend to agree with the others in this thread that I don't really see why your interaction with ICE would be any different from your interaction with the local police force, whatever that happens to be like. I also think taking a political stance at work is pretty damn cringe and annoying regardless of which "side" you're on I've never been a fan of "that guy" or gal.
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There are two groups of people in the world, Happy and unhappy. You know glass half......
When life is good, some people just find things to complain about or worry about. When life is bad, some people just find things that make them feel blessed.
ICE hospital raid is in the same bucket as a meteorite hitting my house.
I think i am a happy and content person. Nothing bothers me. Every obstacle is an opportunity to overcome. When you fall, get up because laying down crying doesn't make things any better.
When life is good, some people just find things to complain about or worry about. When life is bad, some people just find things that make them feel blessed.
ICE hospital raid is in the same bucket as a meteorite hitting my house.
I think i am a happy and content person. Nothing bothers me. Every obstacle is an opportunity to overcome. When you fall, get up because laying down crying doesn't make things any better.
That's because nothing matters much, and very little matters at all.
sort of related but WTF with this deal out of Ohio?
email.cloud.secureclick.net
I always thought since I was not an agent of the court a judge can’t make me do stuff like this. Am I wrong here?
Mercy Health, county Prosecutor argue ethics, law on body cavity search warrants in court
Common Pleas Judge Giovanna Bremke did not make a ruling after the hearing concluded. She ordered the parties to make further, written legal arguments and provide them to her court by 9 a.m. Monday.
I always thought since I was not an agent of the court a judge can’t make me do stuff like this. Am I wrong here?
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