How old is too old to attend medical school?

[Osminog]

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Some not all. Just like some not all of 22 year olds. Enough again are washupz but they pretend to be the ultra accomplished former type who happened to switch. Reason first time admit rate is 50%

People dont like to admit fault. They want to act like their journeys were all super special and perfect. They are half right. They were special. But in many cases they were imperfect hence why it took the longer to end up in the same career position as someone younger.

I don't think the purpose of this thread was for you to take a massive, unwarranted dump on your colleagues. As far as I can tell, the topic is "How old is too old to attend medical school?", not "What is TheIllusionist's oh-so-edgy, uninformed opinion on medical students who are older than him?".

 

[TheIllusionist]

I told my husband I wouldnt complain if he looked like 60 year old former Miami Mayor Carlos Alvarez.
HAWT!!!

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Former Miami-Dade Mayor Carlos Alvarez is back, in rare form, displaying bulging muscles from his pecs to his calves, bronzed from head to toe, dressed in the skimpiest of black briefs.

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View attachment 268226

TRT is powerful thing

 

[deleted972488]

There are students that have Phd's/second careers and have much more life experiences which cannot be summed up by a step or mcat score

These students also do well on the MCAT and USMLE. There is zero and insufficient data to suggest otherwise, respectively.

 

[TheIllusionist]

These students also do well on the MCAT and USMLE. There is zero and insufficient data to suggest otherwise, respectively.

Wrong. There is limited data about superior USMLE scores and data in favor of similar MCAT scores. By your logic, it is so limited that we actually don't know at all. Now you are being dogmatic by suggesting the data confirms you desired result of showing no difference. Very nice cognitive dissonance

 

[deleted972488]

Wrong. There is limited data about superior USMLE scores and data in favor of similar MCAT scores. By your logic, it is so limited that we actually don't know at all. Now you are being dogmatic by suggesting the data confirms you desired result of showing no difference. Very nice cognitive dissonance

Oh boy... I know better than to not make sweeping generalizations based on limited sample size. You're the one who made the unfounded statement that younger people do better on the MCAT and USMLE. When I asked you to provide a source, you backpedaled and said "OK, I guess they don't do better on the MCAT" and found ONE source from ONE school that showed a MILD difference between USMLE scores based on a very limited sample.

 

[TheIllusionist]

Oh boy... I know better than to not to make sweeping generalizations based on limited sample size. You're the one who made the unfounded statement that younger people do better on the MCAT and USMLE. When I asked you to provide a source, you backpedaled and said "OK, I guess they don't do better on the MCAT" and found ONE source from ONE school that showed a MILD difference between USMLE scores based on a very limited sample.

Then you used my exact same supposedly fallacious logic in the same manner to imply no difference. Excellent work oh wise one

 

[Stagg737]

Some are weak, strong, or in-between regardless of their ages. Ageism is supposed to be illegal and dead anyway in the workplace in this time and age so it is hard for me to see why it is still justified in academic / educational environment.

So please ask the individual if they could handle the workload instead and not put a big umbrella on everyone! I imagine that they would tell you if they could or could not do what you ask for.

Again, I do not think anybody would ask for special treatments here!

Respectfully.

Fair point, but the problem is that one doesn't really know what med school is like until they're doing it. I had 4 classmates I knew that were over 40. Two of them did not graduate because they could not handle the demands of med school and one had to quit after having several health problems and hospitalizations from the workload and stress (he was a lawyer before med school). So asking if someone can handle it isn't really valid because certain aspects of medical training are somewhat unique to medicine, though several of those are no longer in practice (120+ hr weeks multiple weeks in a row for example).

Some cases yes. But the "lazy" factor is underestimated. Most of my friends that started in late 20s just didn't balance partying and school work well and had low 3.0s or high 2. gpas. It wasn't because they were single parents supporting 2 kids on a teach for america stipend.

You're confusing laziness with immaturity. There are plenty of people who aren't mature enough for med school in their early 20's and go on to do very well when they've grown up. People who are lazy don't stand a chance unless they have a personality change (rare) and suddenly develop a significant work ethic. The two can overlap, but they most certainly are NOT the same thing and should not be treated as such.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

If I ever apply to med schools in the U.S., I will probably steer clear of your school and Goro's 😉



Getting accepted to med school for me at my age is probably a lottery anyway (U.S. or Carib). So I will at least give it a try.



lazy or not, I am for second chance. Do not be so hard on the people who are not successful as you!

I would not apply to mine either. You had decades to decide if you wanted to go to med school. This to me shows a lack of concentration and commitment. Two very important qualities necessary to be an excellent physician. Medical school is not for everyone . Just because you can do something doesnt mean you should.

 

[TheIllusionist]

Grit and guts are very attractive

Being Entitled and Judgmental not so much

Passive aggression is highly desirable too. And lmfao, if you don't have sufficient ability, grits and guts simply gets you a participation trophy

Anyway, that man has some clear gear use. Good for him, if he is livin his best like just like the 40 year old grads about to embark on intern year

 

[deleted972488]

Then you used my exact same supposedly fallacious logic in the same manner to imply no difference. Excellent work oh wise one

Actually, all I said is that these students do well.

 

[TheIllusionist]

Fair point, but the problem is that one doesn't really know what med school is like until they're doing it. I had 4 classmates I knew that were over 40. Two of them did not graduate because they could not handle the demands of med school and one had to quit after having several health problems and hospitalizations from the workload and stress (he was a lawyer before med school). So asking if someone can handle it isn't really valid because certain aspects of medical training are somewhat unique to medicine, though several of those are no longer in practice (120+ hr weeks multiple weeks in a row for example).



You're confusing laziness with immaturity. There are plenty of people who aren't mature enough for med school in their early 20's and go on to do very well when they've grown up. People who are lazy don't stand a chance unless they have a personality change (rare) and suddenly develop a significant work ethic. The two can overlap, but they most certainly are NOT the same thing and should not be treated as such.

fair point to some degree. I think part but not all of immaturity is failure to dedicate sufficient time to priorities that will lead to a better future. I suppose it isn't laziness in many cases.

 

[Stagg737]

Wrong. There is limited data about superior USMLE scores and data in favor of similar MCAT scores. By your logic, it is so limited that we actually don't know at all. Now you are being dogmatic by suggesting the data confirms you desired result of showing no difference. Very nice cognitive dissonance

I would actually argue that the bolded is completely true if the study posted is the basis of your argument. Extrapolating data from a single school with such a poorly representative cohort and applying it to an entire population is just poor analysis. Further, while the data may have shown statistically significant differences, the differences certainly were not "clinically significant". Ie, a 4 point difference in Step 1 scores doesn't mean anything irl when it comes time to apply to the match. This is something to keep in mind for all going forward: statistical significance is overrated in medicine and should not be used to drive standards of care if clinical significance can't also be shown.

 

[Tenk]

Retirement = Death

Forcing? This morning I worked at the free clinic where all of the physicians and providers are volunteers. None get paid. Most are over 70 and tell me they are bored sh8tless at home. Some work at clothing closets, others are learning how to raise Bees (yes, really) while another 86 year old retired surgeon, a widow, throws himself into teaching students at the free clinic and the VA since he was faculty at the local medical school and loves teaching. Would that all faculty half his age have his passion!

The US Government has done a great disservice to Americans by introducing retirement at age 65. Americans have given up on life. The fervor and zeal which built this great country are gone. Retire? To do what, play on facebook?

If you want to retire at age 65 then do it. Ill be that 86 year old surgeon working, healing and teaching trainees to help society



If your argument were true you wouldn't need extremes



Im Pro-Choice. your personal judgements of fiscal responsibility should dictate to you and no one else. what they wish to do in life is none of your business. If you don't approve, don't have an abortion invest your money in a career goals.



And yet many on here write that medicine is a journey, a marathon, not a sprint.

One day youll be working for someone older than you and hopefully wont judge you on account of your youth.

That’s great that they can work at a cush volunteer clinic with 0 liability and 0 metrics. Let’s throw them into a busy level 1 trauma center from 9 pm to 7 am for a week straight and see how they do.

I’ve worked with docs in their 60s and 70s. I run circles around them. Not one have I ever seen that impressed me with their throughput and ability to move the meat. Hell most of them beg me to show them how to use epic.

I actually think it’s incredibly sad that people can’t find things to do other than medicine. If you gave me 5 million dollars today I would never even think about picking up another shift. It’s not that I don’t like my job, I actually do, it’s that my outside life is so freaking badass with mountain biking, snowboarding, surfing, kids and computers that I would have a million things to occupy my time. When all you do is work (as I see many doctors do) they hit retirement and realize they don’t have much to fill the gap. I have the opposite problem, I have too much stuff and not enough time.

 

[TheIllusionist]

That’s great that they can work at a cush volunteer clinic with 0 liability and 0 metrics. Let’s throw them into a busy level 1 trauma center from 9 pm to 7 am for a week straight and see how they do.

I’ve worked with docs in their 60s and 70s. I run circles around them. Not one have I ever seen that impressed me with their throughput and ability to move the meat. Hell most of them beg me to show them how to use epic.

I actually think it’s incredibly sad that people can’t find things to do other than medicine. If you gave me 5 million dollars today I would never even think about picking up another shift. It’s not that I don’t like my job, I actually do, it’s that my outside life is so freaking badass with mountain biking, snowboarding, surfing, kids and computers that I would have a million things to occupy my time. When all you do is work (as I see many doctors do) they hit retirement and realize they don’t have much to fill the gap. I have the opposite problem, I have too much stuff and not enough time.

hence why good to go i early. come out early. invest well for retirement starting early. retire early and enjoy life. just stay healthy during it which is much easier physically to do in your 20s with the tough parts than later

 

[TheIllusionist]

Care to put that in official written correspondence with your signature and disclose which medical school with which you are affiliated ? asking for a friend

Age Discrimination Act of 1975

www.dol.gov

It is expensive for us as a nation to train docs. Rather have one for longer. Better a 30 year old attending who works till 70 than a 40 year old who works till 75. More years and better quality ones down the line in the prior scenario

 

[init2020]

the personalities in this thread are very entertaining lol

 

[Sleepingdoc]

Some not all. Just like some not all of 22 year olds. Enough again are washupz but they pretend to be the ultra accomplished former type who happened to switch. Reason first time admit rate is 50%

People dont like to admit fault. They want to act like their journeys were all super special and perfect. They are half right. They were special. But in many cases they were imperfect hence why it took the longer to end up in the same career position as someone younger.

If there is a med school class full of 22 year old and if you see 10 students that are in there that are older, there is a very high chance( i do not have an objective data but by experience) that the older gentleman/woman is a lot more accomplished than those 22 year olds. Sorry but you are making a general statement that most older folks in "many cases" have a "fault"..???

 

[Sleepingdoc]

the personalities in this thread are very entertaining lol

I think some are arguing for its entertainment value so I am gonna stop.

 

[deleted972488]

Better a 30 year old attending who works till 70 than a 40 year old who works till 75.

Better a 40-year-old attending who doesn't assume they're better than everybody older than they are than a 30-year-old troll.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Care to put that in official written correspondence with your signature and disclose which medical school with which you are affiliated ? asking for a friend

Age Discrimination Act of 1975

www.dol.gov

Plenty of new schools to apply to who will cheerfully separate you from you hard earned savings and your future earnings, aka student loans. Feel free to bring your friend along. We certainly have a dearth of victims in this country.

 

[Tenk]

Zero liability? a state licensed medical clinic has zero liability? And you know this how?

Cush job? youve worked as a physician where the poor, the sick, the undocumented pursued by ICE are deprived of medical care and you think dealing with these patients is cush?

Today I assisted the ID physician with a gay male couple, HIV+, high viral low, low CD4, one has hx of toxoplasmosis with ring enhancing lesion and presented today with headaches, while his partner has precancerous lesions and no oncologist nor surgeon will touch him because he is undocumented. Cush? The metrics involved with these two patients involve metrics CMS cant capture.

Please tell us how your patients with first world problems stress you.

ya know the medical schools really should be screening applicants not for high age but for low emotional IQ

Correct. It is near impossible to sue free clinics so long as there is no fee for service or billing and it is near impossible to sue the VA. Hence 0 liability.

Neither of those patients described required any cpr, airway management, lines, pressors, emergent surgery or any other form of critical care. Their charts also won’t be audited and you won’t have a case manager breathing down your neck about billing.

Cush.

You don’t know what you don’t know and from your posts... well... you got a lot to learn. Good luck with your future. Take care.

 

[getdown]

It's obvious from the posts on here that people have their own agendas to prove. Here's an easy way to look at it. Look at what the posters with "physician" tags are saying vs those that are premeds. I'll leave it up to you to figure out who to believe ... The people that have gone through the training or the people quoting BS studies on this and that. We're just stating the facts of how brutal the training is. No one made comments on whether older trainees are mentally and intellectually inferior. Everyone is stating the physical part of it is hard. If you're too caught up with your own egos to see that then that's on you. I'm out. Can't argue with people who can't accept what the reality of the situation is.

 

[Stagg737]

Care to put that in official written correspondence with your signature and disclose which medical school with which you are affiliated ? asking for a friend

Age Discrimination Act of 1975

www.dol.gov

Let's be real for a second. As we get older there are diminishing returns to the investment that is pursuing a career in medicine for the individual, the institutions which train and support the individual, and the populace which will be treated by the individual.

The individual will be paying more late in life and putting themselves through an unnecessarily stressful situation to pursue a pipe dream in which they will only be capable of actually practicing for a fraction of the time a younger individual could. Additionally, they will put their own health at greater risk, put pressures and stresses on their families and loved ones (if they have them), and have to put themselves in a position of being humbled as they will have to eat crow from people 20+ years younger than them who are higher on the totem pole.

The institutions will be training someone who will have a higher chance of attrition because of health or personal reasons, may have to make more accommodations due to family issues (most people I know in their 40's and 50's are starting to take care of their own parents), are less likely to go into elite/competitive specialties due to the significantly higher demand of residency training in those fields, and may have to deal with problems associated with inefficiency or technological problems due to generational differences (which sounds ridiculous but I have seen this personally with older classmates). So institutions are increasing their risk while simultaneously decreasing their reward (chances of graduate being a leader in their field, making large contributions, serving on alumni boards, etc).

The populace will be receiving care from someone who will likely be practicing for a shorter period of time (especially in the face of true physician shortages in several essential fields), may not be able to see as many patients due to a desire or need for a more lifestyle friendly practice set-up (seeing 10 patients/day instead of 20+) whether that be because of health or personal reasons, and may have greater difficulties adapting to EMR systems and the constantly changing technological requirements of the industry (obviously not true for everyone, but there is strong data showing that age is directly related to decrease in cognitive flexibility, multitasking, and ability to learn new technologies).

Regardless of how you want to look at it, after a certain point the older an individual is the less fruitful pursuing the path of medicine becomes for everyone. Imo it's less about whether or not a person can pursue medicine at X years old, it's about whether or not they should.

 

[olabrador23]

Care to put that in official written correspondence with your signature and disclose which medical school with which you are affiliated ? asking for a friend

Age Discrimination Act of 1975

www.dol.gov

you beat me to it. I was trying to picture him as an adcom interviewing a student, saying that straight to the student's face,

He: "So I see that you are old. You had decades to decide if you wanted to go to med school. This to me shows a lack of concentration and commitment. Two very important qualities necessary to be an excellent physician. Medical school is not for everyone . Just because you can do something doesnt mean you should."

Student: "Yes, let me check with the law".

Minus the internet, I could not really picture that scenario happen in real life.

I would not apply to mine either. You had decades to decide if you wanted to go to med school. This to me shows a lack of concentration and commitment. Two very important qualities necessary to be an excellent physician. Medical school is not for everyone . Just because you can do something doesnt mean you should.

Yes, Sir. That is fine with me. Please also tell that to every non-trad and older students out there!

To me, ageism is wrong. In fact, it is illegal as @IL1B has pointed out above. Trust me, I would not want to apply to any school that does that. In fact, give me the name of your school, and I will save you the trouble of throwing my application to the trash.

Still I would really appreciate people who candidly tell people what they think and practice what they preach in real life. Respect.

It is just hypocritical to do otherwise. Why haven't ALL medical schools in the U.S. announced yet that they are only accepting students no older than 22-23? It does not make any sense when everyone else is just some "lazy", "uncommitted", "lacking of motivation / concentration", "screwed up", __(fill in the blank)__, and so on, right?

When I have to think about this, I have to wonder whether some schools are accepting some older students so that they could claim or make it harder to prove age discrimination? Sorta like, "my favorite persons / students / friends are 40-50 years old, so no age discrimination here even though I said 50 should be a cut off (somebody has even said that 23-25 should be the cut off)".

On the other hand, I can also see that we have progressed from late 20s was too old for med school to early 30 was too old for med school to early 40s or mid 40s was too old, to now 50s is too old. We have come a long way.

I am still hopeful b/c I really do not believe that all adcoms are thinking like you. If doctors are really thinking this way, I could play in my head how they would talk to a old (50, 60, whatever age you want to fill in) patient,

Doc: "You are just too old. We have limited resources. You have had decades to live you life. No use to save you now so that you are going to die very soon. It is time for you to go and save the society a bunch".

Patient: "Dang, you are so right. It is time for me to die." ---- thinking, "who tf need a doctor now???"

Trust me, I do not want to be that kind of doctor.

 

[ricksimmonsrafowens]

one of my favorite actors Peter Wingfield graduated med school at 52, completed an anesthesia residency at UCSD and is now a CT anes fellow at Cedars Sinai. He made like the ultimate career switch. Probably was killer at OSCEs

Local – NBC Boston

In-depth news coverage of the Greater Boston and New England area.

www.necn.com

 

[olabrador23]

Let's be real for a second. As we get older there are diminishing returns to the investment that is pursuing a career in medicine for the individual, the institutions which train and support the individual, and the populace which will be treated by the individual.

The individual will be paying more late in life and putting themselves through an unnecessarily stressful situation to pursue a pipe dream in which they will only be capable of actually practicing for a fraction of the time a younger individual could. Additionally, they will put their own health at greater risk, put pressures and stresses on their families and loved ones (if they have them), and have to put themselves in a position of being humbled as they will have to eat crow from people 20+ years younger than them who are higher on the totem pole.

The institutions will be training someone who will have a higher chance of attrition because of health or personal reasons, may have to make more accommodations due to family issues (most people I know in their 40's and 50's are starting to take care of their own parents), are less likely to go into elite/competitive specialties due to the significantly higher demand of residency training in those fields, and may have to deal with problems associated with inefficiency or technological problems due to generational differences (which sounds ridiculous but I have seen this personally with older classmates). So institutions are increasing their risk while simultaneously decreasing their reward (chances of graduate being a leader in their field, making large contributions, serving on alumni boards, etc).

The populace will be receiving care from someone who will likely be practicing for a shorter period of time (especially in the face of true physician shortages in several essential fields), may not be able to see as many patients due to a desire or need for a more lifestyle friendly practice set-up (seeing 10 patients/day instead of 20+) whether that be because of health or personal reasons, and may have greater difficulties adapting to EMR systems and the constantly changing technological requirements of the industry (obviously not true for everyone, but there is strong data showing that age is directly related to decrease in cognitive flexibility, multitasking, and ability to learn new technologies).

Regardless of how you want to look at it, after a certain point the older an individual is the less fruitful pursuing the path of medicine becomes for everyone. Imo it's less about whether or not a person can pursue medicine at X years old, it's about whether or not they should.

Stress, family situation, being behind tech curve, not wanting to go to competitive specialties, etc. can be said for all age group, I believe.

I think the emphasis should be on the person / indvidual and not umbrella stats. They are humans after all.

Let's say the stats say that 90% of 50's yo med students will fail to graduate med school. That gives 10% to beat to the finish line

So it is right to cut them off from going to med schools. Tell me how you know exactly who are the people who are going to fail? So is it better to not let any of them to go to med school? Or you are going to let in the person who meet the admission categories / standard through? (I do not believe any adcom out there would publicly states that 50's or 60s or 70's is the cut off 🙂 )


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Also, someone mentioned above that med schools need to admit young students to train them to be leaders to do "big stuffs". What big stuffs??? Look at the U.S. healthcare's results compared to the rest of the developed world, millions still do not have medical access, medical care is still very expensive (I have read that even some doctors do not have enough resources to care for their family, people putting off seeing doctors or going to the hospital even in the case of emergency), etc., I think it is time to have some fresh thinking and doing.

 

[olabrador23]

It's obvious from the posts on here that people have their own agendas to prove. Here's an easy way to look at it. Look at what the posters with "physician" tags are saying vs those that are premeds. I'll leave it up to you to figure out who to believe ... The people that have gone through the training or the people quoting BS studies on this and that. We're just stating the facts of how brutal the training is. No one made comments on whether older trainees are mentally and intellectually inferior. Everyone is stating the physical part of it is hard. If you're too caught up with your own egos to see that then that's on you. I'm out. Can't argue with people who can't accept what the reality of the situation is.

Thanks for sharing your experience. Please let the individual to make his / her decision and do not put out your efforts to stop them to do what they want. This country's constitution guarantees the right of pursuing one's life happiness. As long as their actions do not interfere with your happiness. Last time I check we aint living in a communist country.

 

[gyngyn]

I appears that everyone has had their say.