How old is too old to attend medical school?

[952995]

What age should someone completely forget about this career option?

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[Schwifty]

If your old enough to look like this guy it’s pry too late... but on a more serious note, 50+ is pry too late, but people in their 40’s still do it, I guess it would depend on how much schooling/EC’s you would need to do to actually be able to apply to med school

 

[Stagg737]

Depends on your situation. Are you single? Have kids? How much money do you have saved up? Will med school put you in debt? Are you in good health? When do you want to retire? Do you want to retire? Are you happy with your current career? Are you mentally capable of going back to being low-man on the totem pole and getting crapped on?

All of these things play a role in age. The older you are, the bigger the risk and the more dangerous the potential failure. I had classmates in their late forties and one or two in their fifties. It was definitely a lot harder for them than most of us, especially from the physical aspect. Personally, I'd say if you're early thirties and you really want to go for it, then do it. It's young enough that if things fall apart you can recover. Past that you've really got to start asking questions and figuring out where your priorities lie. Disclaimer, I say this as someone in their 30's with family and I don't think I could see myself just starting med school at this point in my life know the road that would lie ahead.

 

[olabrador23]

70

 

[Goro]

What age should someone completely forget about this career option?

50 would be my suggested cut off line. Med school is not the Make A Wish Foundation.

 

[olabrador23]

50 would be my suggested cut off line

From your comment and others above, 50+ would not have much chance for U.S. med school's admission. The chance would be very very small. (hope you can give us a theoretical number for 50s applicants vs 20s applicant, considering everything else equal).

The common thinking might be that intellectual/learning/physical ability and time to serve decline with age and that the investment should be placed in younger and more traditional students when it come to med school admission. I can understand that. That might be also the reality that 50+ students are going to have to face.

But if those 50+ students are applying for med schools, will they still have a reasonable chance of getting in, let's say, DO schools vs MD schools?

That was why I (and many older students) was considering the Caribbean option in the first place as it would still give us a fighting, however small, chance to become a doctor (but I remember reading that some would consider people from Carib having red flags for choosing that route).

Seriously, I do not know if I should give up now when I have just started (I only have started studying for the MCAT)... I am not blaming anyone but just thinking...

I am depressed.

 

[Tenk]

Hard stop of 50 I agree with Goro. Soft stop of 40 if bad situation.

 

[Sleepingdoc]

There were 40's in my class for sure. But 50 seems to be the cut off.. I think, but maybe someone else can confirm this but the MD schools tend to want people who are young and can do research for them, so they typically tend to not take the older folks. DO schools are little less of an age bias.

If you really have a passion, I am sure someone will take a chance on you.

 

[TheIllusionist]

28 of you are pragmatic. ideal age is 23, despite what the feel good "the age you go is the best age for you" people will tell, some of whom had tough life circumstances justifying late entry, but many of whom were just lazy early on and now want to justify their journey as the ideal, instead admitting they just done goofed

 

[olabrador23]

Hard stop of 50 I agree with Goro. Soft stop of 40 if bad situation.

If I ever apply to med schools in the U.S., I will probably steer clear of your school and Goro's

There were 40's in my class for sure. But 50 seems to be the cut off.. I think, but maybe someone else can confirm this but the MD schools tend to want people who are young and can do research for them, so they typically tend to not take the older folks. DO schools are little less of an age bias.

If you really have a passion, I am sure someone will take a chance on you.

Getting accepted to med school for me at my age is probably a lottery anyway (U.S. or Carib). So I will at least give it a try.

28 of you are pragmatic. ideal age is 23, despite what the feel good "the age you go is the best age for you" people will tell, some of whom had tough life circumstances justifying late entry, but many of whom were just lazy early on and now want to justify their journey as the ideal, instead admitting they just done goofed

lazy or not, I am for second chance. Do not be so hard on the people who are not successful as you!

 

[Tiran145]

28 of you are pragmatic. ideal age is 23, despite what the feel good "the age you go is the best age for you" people will tell, some of whom had tough life circumstances justifying late entry, but many of whom were just lazy early on and now want to justify their journey as the ideal, instead admitting they just done goofed
[/

I will be 25 when I start this fall. Don’t feel old at all.

 

[Sleepingdoc]

Early/late 20's are not "OLD"... starting late nothing to do with being lazy.. There are just different circumstances.

 

[gonnif]

50 would be my suggested cut off line. Med school is not the Make A Wish Foundation.

i sent a 50+ year old this year and isnt my first. Would I advise it to most people? I have very long blunt conversations with any older than early 30s on what this entails in terms time, effort, money, relationships, or children

 

[gonnif]

From your comment and others above, 50+ would not have much chance for U.S. med school's admission. The chance would be very very small. (hope you can give us a theoretical number for 50s applicants vs 20s applicant, considering everything else equal).

The common thinking might be that intellectual/learning/physical ability and time to serve decline with age and that the investment should be placed in younger and more traditional students when it come to med school admission. I can understand that. That might be also the reality that 50+ students are going to have to face.

But if those 50+ students are applying for med schools, will they still have a reasonable chance of getting in, let's say, DO schools vs MD schools?

That was why I (and many older students) was considering the Caribbean option in the first place as it would still give us a fighting, however small, chance to become a doctor (but I remember reading that some would consider people from Carib having red flags for choosing that route).

Seriously, I do not know if I should give up now when I have just started (I only have started studying for the MCAT)... I am not blaming anyone but just thinking...

I am depressed.

I looked at this in depth about a decade ago, when I still had access to the complete dataset. Controlling for GPA/MCAT, there was no significant difference in acceptance rates across age groups. That is percentage of age group represented in applicant pool
Is about same in matriculant pool. The difference in acceptance rates across ages is much associated to the general trend that the older an applicant, the more “grade baggage” they tend to carry. More accurately it is broadly a function of time from original undergraduate graduation, with “near-grads” having less grade baggage than “far-grads”.

 

[olabrador23]

I did not see Goro's "Med school is not the Make A Wish Foundation" comment earlier.

It does not sound right to me. Older applicants, whatever age they are, still have to win their acceptance for med school on their own merits (grades, test scores, EC, etc.) Nobody asks for a pity or handout.

The only barriers in this case, 50s, are their age and the general/common assumptions about this age group.

 

[olabrador23]

I looked at this in depth about a decade ago, when I still had access to the complete dataset. Controlling for GPA/MCAT, there was no significant difference in acceptance rates across age groups. That is percentage of age group represented in applicant pool
Is about same in matriculant pool. The difference in acceptance rates across ages is much associated to the general trend that the older an applicant, the more “grade baggage” they tend to carry. More accurately it is broadly a function of time from original undergraduate graduation, with “near-grads” having less grade baggage than “far-grads”.

this gives me hope. I would love to learn more from your insights whenever you have time to share. (I am going to search for your old posts to learn more on this subject).

Much thanks!

 

[getdown]

Lol at the people crying ageism. Have any of you talked with older (50-60) docs? Ask them why they don't take as much call or work as many hours as their younger colleagues? It's not about saying they can't mentally handle the stress of this job, it's that they can't physically do it anymore. Have any of you tried taking night float call? Or a 24-36 hour call? And by this I mean stay up for 36 hours? Be honest with yourself and ask if you can physically do this. We're not talking about mental capacity or drive. We're talking physical strain on an old body. In training you're expected to be able to perform at the level of your peers and that includes doi g all the menial stuff. You don't get special treatment for being older and not physically capable to handle it.

 

[olabrador23]

Lol at the people crying ageism. Have any of you talked with older (50-60) docs? Ask them why they don't take as much call or work as many hours as their younger colleagues? It's not about saying they can't mentally handle the stress of this job, it's that they can't physically do it anymore. Have any of you tried taking night float call? Or a 24-36 hour call? And by this I mean stay up for 36 hours? Be honest with yourself and ask if you can physically do this. We're not talking about mental capacity or drive. We're talking physical strain on an old body. In training you're expected to be able to perform at the level of your peers and that includes doi g all the menial stuff. You don't get special treatment for being older and not physically capable to handle it.

Some are weak, strong, or in-between regardless of their ages. Ageism is supposed to be illegal and dead anyway in the workplace in this time and age so it is hard for me to see why it is still justified in academic / educational environment.

So please ask the individual if they could handle the workload instead and not put a big umbrella on everyone! I imagine that they would tell you if they could or could not do what you ask for.

Again, I do not think anybody would ask for special treatments here!

Respectfully.

 

[sunshinefl]

I’d say start medical school before you’re 40 at the latest. Before I get attacked I’m talking about self-selection. I started at 31 and will graduate at 35, and I think I’m just barely squeezing in to reasonable, for my sake.

Edited to add: any older and I would have gone PA. (And probably still should have... wrestled with it for years and still feel bleh some days that I didn’t).

 

[Dave1980]

Training doctors is not about individual accomplishment and personal achievement for the student/resident. This is about training people to serve in the community to take care of patients. Doctors have to have a long career to make the investment worth it for society. Sorry but it just doesn't make sense to let many 40 or 50 year olds into med school.

This isn't about ability or intellect IMO. It's about practicality.

 

[Ad2b]

If your old enough to look like this guy it’s pry too late... but on a more serious note, 50+ is pry too late

Sorry but it just doesn't make sense to let many 40 or 50 year olds into med school.

thankfully, not that many apply

 

[theKingLT]

Some are weak, strong, or in-between regardless of their ages. Ageism is supposed to be illegal and dead anyway in the workplace in this time and age so it is hard for me to see why it is still justified in academic / educational environment.

So please ask the individual if they could handle the workload instead and not put a big umbrella on everyone! I imagine that they would tell you if they could or could not do what you ask for.

Again, I do not think anybody would ask for special treatments here!

Respectfully.

No matter how capable they are, you can't expect someone starting at 50 to have the same length career as someone starting at 25

 

[787593]

What age should someone completely forget about this career option?

69

 

[787593]

i sent a 50+ year old this year and isnt my first. Would I advise it to most people? I have very long blunt conversations with any older than early 30s on what this entails in terms time, effort, money, relationships, or children

Who even needs those anyway?

 

[Rachapkis]

this gives me hope. I would love to learn more from your insights whenever you have time to share. (I am going to search for your old posts to learn more on this subject).

Much thanks!

I respect that you have a drive to be a doctor and feel that you can handle the mental and physical stress associated with being a doctor. From the school's perspective, I would worry about investing so much in someone who, if they retire at 68, might only practice for a half dozen years after residency. I would also worry that the applicant might overestimate their abilities to tolerate the stresses of the profession. As the applicant, I would worry about finances (investing 300k in an education with a limited remaining worklife) and the need to slavishly throw myself into my career for a decade. Food for thought.

 

[TheIllusionist]

Early/late 20's are not "OLD"... starting late nothing to do with being lazy.. There are just different circumstances.

Some cases yes. But the "lazy" factor is underestimated. Most of my friends that started in late 20s just didn't balance partying and school work well and had low 3.0s or high 2. gpas. It wasn't because they were single parents supporting 2 kids on a teach for america stipend.

 

[gonnif]

Who even needs those anyway?

Spouse and offspring are wonderful. Indeed, I have 3 ex-wives and 4 kids. Or is it 4 ex-wives and 3 kids? I never get that straight anymore

 

[Osminog]

Some cases yes. But the "lazy" factor is underestimated. Most of my friends that started in late 20s just didn't balance partying and school work well and had low 3.0s or high 2. gpas. It wasn't because they were single parents supporting 2 kids on a teach for america stipend.

Some people don't enter college as pre-meds and end up realizing. through their real-world experiences, that they want to go into medicine later on in life. Not everybody goes through the standard K-through-MD track, where they get pushed by their overbearing parents and spend all of high school envisioning themselves as TV characters from House MD and Scrubs. Non-trads sometimes have low undergraduate GPAs, but that's probably due to the fact that many of them weren't try-hard, grade-obsessed pre-meds in undergrad.

 

[theKingLT]

medicine is a business just like education. The school is generating revenue.The idea they are investing in a student while charging them $60k tuition per year is hysterical. Nothing is free in America and few institutions do things for the sake of generosity.

The paradigm that you discard people due to a certain age (e.g. > 65) is a unique travesty to America in part since the late 1960s thanks to LBJ’s “Great Society” program.
In other civilized, advanced societies they see people who are older as wise and necessary for teaching the young how to be adults. That clearly hasnt been the recent trend in America given how Baby Boomers have shafted their offspring which the latter are tempted to lock up in nursing homes

65 as an age for retirement is strictly a quotient invented by the US Government.
Ignore it and keep plugging until you drop dead

Work is not a 4 letter word

Many of the top med schools today offer massive amounts of financial aid (need and merit based), funded by donors. NYU is free. Wash U offers full rides to 50% and big scholarships to the rest. Mayo I'm sure is right up there despite not publishing official numbers. I know these are exceptions, but the point is there are other forms of investment. The investment part comes from the idea that those top students they bring in with that money will go on to successful careers and subsequent donations. If they dont become direct donors in the future, at the very least they are tools used to keep the school rank up and donor money flowing in.

That's just the financial perspective. You also have to keep in mind many adcoms view their job as gatekeeper to the future generation physicians and leaders--that they're addressing societal woes by selecting applicants who will fight the biggest battles (hence emphasis on volunteering, URM recruitment, etc.). They are "investing" in the people who will improve society. Since one of these societal issues is a massive physician shortage, it would make sense to select for people who are going to put in more working years.

I'm not saying I condone ageism. In a perfect world anyone can do anything with their life at any time, and the physician shortage would be addressed via residency expansion. Nevertheless, in the context of admissions officers, and how many view their jobs, I would understand why discrimination may occur

 

[TheIllusionist]

Some people don't enter college as pre-meds and end up realizing. through their real-world experiences, that they want to go into medicine later on in life. Not everybody goes through the standard K-through-MD track, where they get pushed by their overbearing parents and spend all of high school envisioning themselves as TV characters from House MD and Scrubs. Non-trads sometimes have low undergraduate GPAs, but that's probably due to the fact that many of them weren't try-hard, grade-obsessed pre-meds in undergrad.

so much cope. it's okay. we can't all both enjoy life and accomplish our goals at an earlier age. plenty of the direct crowd had great social lives and many are plenty mature. most elite doctors of generations past and internationally do it directly. don't get me wrong, the second chances america offers are great. But they are known as such for a reason

some, not all non trads might also be dumber. Hence, why it takes them longer to master same info needed for med school. There is a reason USMLE scores and MCAT scored correlate inversely with age. But keep lying to yourself about your superior social skills and wisdom.

 

[Goro]

Cultural engineering is not particularly new

The Commonwealth of Virginia practiced, and the Supreme Court upheld, the practice of eugenics in eliminating “mongrels” from the population by forced sterilization on specific members of the “herd”.

Adolph Hitler practiced cultural engineering as well by adopting an Arian nation and eliminating “weak” undesirable people like Jews and homosexuals

See BF Skinner and his Walden Two and Beyond Freedom and Dignity books where he advocated cultural engineering.

and others

Beyond Freedom and Dignity is consistent with Walden Two, a 1948 novel by Skinner, depicting a utopian community based on his ideas regarding behavior modification. In Beyond Freedom and Dignity Skinner extends his argument for explicit cultural engineering of which Walden Two may be seen as an example.

Beyond Freedom and Dignity - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Your logical fallacy is strawman

You misrepresented someone's argument to make it easier to attack.

yourlogicalfallacyis.com

FYI, some of my all time best students have been in their 30s and 40s. I graduated a stellar one at age 50, and she's now an attending in So Cal.

But we have only so many seats, and we want graduates who will be practicing Medicine for 30-40 years.

 

[deleted972488]

USMLE scores and MCAT scored correlate inversely with age

Source?

 

[Osminog]

so much cope. it's okay. we can't all both enjoy life and accomplish our goals at an earlier age. plenty of the direct crowd had great social lives and many are plenty mature. most elite doctors of generations past and internationally do it directly. don't get me wrong, the second chances america offers are great. But they are known as such for a reason

some, not all non trads might also be dumber. Hence, why it takes them longer to master same info needed for med school. There is a reason USMLE scores and MCAT scored correlate inversely with age. But keep lying to yourself about your superior social skills and wisdom.

Lol, you're trying a bit too hard to be edgy. I know this is the sort of persona you're trying to create for yourself, but maybe give it a rest.

Assuming it's true that non-trads take longer to master information in medical school and are less prepared for board exams, couldn't we consider the possibility that their performance is affected by their social responsibilities outside of school? Many non-trad students have spouses, and some even have kids. Without concrete evidence, it's a big stretch to claim that non-trads are simply "dumber," on average, than their traditional-age peers.

Also, I didn't make the claim that non-trads have "superior social skills and wisdom." I do, however, suspect that having experience in the workforce would enable someone to develop some useful skills and gain a unique perspective.

 

[TheIllusionist]

Source?

"
Moreover, students younger than 25 scored higher than students aged 25 or older on USMLE Step 1 and Step 2 CK, but not on the MCAT."

Relationships of demographic variables to USMLE physician licensing exam scores: a statistical analysis on five years of medical student data

The purpose of this study was to determine the associations of the demographic variables of gender, state of legal residency, student age, and undergraduate major with scores on the Medical College Admissions Test (MCAT) and the United States Medical ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

So not MCAT apparently. But 25 is a pretty low cut off. Anyway, proves my point even more. When given same prep time, aka firs two years of med school, younger people do better.

 

[TheIllusionist]

Lol, you're trying a bit too hard to be edgy. I know this is the sort of persona you're trying to create for yourself, but maybe give it a rest.

Assuming it's true that non-trads take longer to master information in medical school and are less prepared for board exams, couldn't we consider the possibility that their performance is affected by their social responsibilities outside of school? Many non-trad students have spouses, and some even have kids. Without concrete evidence, it's a big stretch to claim that non-trads are simply "dumber," on average, than their traditional-age peers.

Also, I didn't make the claim that non-trads have "superior social skills and wisdom." I do, however, suspect that having experience in the workforce would enable someone to develop some useful skills and gain a unique perspective.

"Not everybody goes through the standard K-through-MD track, where they get pushed by their overbearing parents and spend all of high school envisioning themselves as TV characters from House MD and Scrubs. Non-trads sometimes have low undergraduate GPAs, but that's probably due to the fact that many of them weren't try-hard, grade-obsessed pre-meds in undergrad."

Only with an edgy tone is you making implications about the parents of trads and how trads viewed themselves as TV show characters. Not all trads are try hard grade obsessed. many are just smarter. Even then, it is funny that you bring it up. Because all that means is that non trads became that way later on.

Also, I don't think those years make a difference. We all tell ourselves they do but they don't. Fine medical institutions with excellent clinical and basic science scholars exist worldwide with exclusively trad students. It is nice we give second chances. I agree with that. But I don't think they are laudatory, unless the person was truly disadvantaged. Many non trads I see (most of the late 20s crowd) just didn't have their **** together. It wasn't because they were off making millions on wallstreet or being a single parent or working 3 jobs. Yeah, some stories like that. I respect the hell out of those. Most are just former wash-ups that finally started to put in the effort and show the discipline needed to succeed.

 

[deleted972488]

"
Moreover, students younger than 25 scored higher than students aged 25 or older on USMLE Step 1 and Step 2 CK, but not on the MCAT."

Relationships of demographic variables to USMLE physician licensing exam scores: a statistical analysis on five years of medical student data

The purpose of this study was to determine the associations of the demographic variables of gender, state of legal residency, student age, and undergraduate major with scores on the Medical College Admissions Test (MCAT) and the United States Medical ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

So not MCAT apparently. But 25 is a pretty low cut off. Anyway, proves my point even more. When given same prep time, aka firs two years of med school, younger people do better.

This provides data from one school over five years. The sample size is small and not necessarily representative.

Also, statistically significant differences do not necessarily indicate meaningful differences and the study even recognizes this: "Across all analyses included in this study, it is important to note that although many of the results were statistically significant, we must also consider the practical significance of, for example, the 4.06 point difference in mean Step 1 scores between traditional- and nontraditional-aged students."

 

[TheIllusionist]

 

[jamaica jan sun princess]

There was a kid in the gym yesterday morning at oh-dark hundred when I usually train. He was early 20s, 6 feet tall, easily over 300 lbs. I could have asked him to do 45 mins of stairmaster with me but I thought it best to congratulate him for coming to the gym instead of initiating a 911 call

If that conversation hadn't occured entirely in your head, someone might have been calling 911 for you instead. What a pretentious thing to say to someone at the gym.

 

[deleted972488]

What is your point in sharing this table? I already read the study and responded to it. My previous comment still applies.

 

[gonnif]

FYI, some of my all time best students have been in their 30s and 40s. I graduated a stellar one at age 50, and she's now an attending in So Cal.

But we have only so many seats, and we want graduates who will be practicing Medicine for 30-40 years.

For an interesting read on the subject of Eugenics, is the below. The author was a Distinguished Teaching Professor of Genetics at SUNY Stony Brook, founder of the Honors program there and served for decades on the medical schools admissions committee, including several years as chair. He spent the second half of his career writing several books on history of genetics.

BTW, likely the worst state in Union in this regard was Indiana
The Unfit: A History of a Bad Idea by Elof Axel Carlson

 

[Gurby]

"
Moreover, students younger than 25 scored higher than students aged 25 or older on USMLE Step 1 and Step 2 CK, but not on the MCAT."

Relationships of demographic variables to USMLE physician licensing exam scores: a statistical analysis on five years of medical student data

The purpose of this study was to determine the associations of the demographic variables of gender, state of legal residency, student age, and undergraduate major with scores on the Medical College Admissions Test (MCAT) and the United States Medical ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

So not MCAT apparently. But 25 is a pretty low cut off. Anyway, proves my point even more. When given same prep time, aka firs two years of med school, younger people do better.

This seems to refute your point, no? Maybe I'm too old to understand.

The MCAT is more or less an aptitude test.
The USMLE is a contest of who can put in the most time and effort to memorize medical trivia.

If younger students are outscoring older students on Step, but scoring the same on the MCAT... It seems like a better logical jump to me that the non-trads aren't dumb, they're likely spending their time and energy on things other than doing Zanki and 3 QBanks.

 

[Osminog]

"
Moreover, students younger than 25 scored higher than students aged 25 or older on USMLE Step 1 and Step 2 CK, but not on the MCAT."

Relationships of demographic variables to USMLE physician licensing exam scores: a statistical analysis on five years of medical student data

The purpose of this study was to determine the associations of the demographic variables of gender, state of legal residency, student age, and undergraduate major with scores on the Medical College Admissions Test (MCAT) and the United States Medical ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

So not MCAT apparently. But 25 is a pretty low cut off. Anyway, proves my point even more. When given same prep time, aka firs two years of med school, younger people do better.

Did you read the study? We're talking about a 4-point difference in average Step 1 scores between traditional and non-trad students. This may be statistically significant for the purpose of this study but it really doesn't bolster your strongly-worded argument about how non-trads are more likely to be "dumber." You were better off just abandoning this thread than coming back to cite a source that makes your argument sound utterly foolish.

Also, I don't think those years make a difference. We all tell ourselves they do but they don't. Fine medical institutions with excellent clinical and basic science scholars exist worldwide with exclusively trad students. It is nice we give second chances. I agree with that. But I don't think they are laudatory, unless the person was truly disadvantaged. Many non trads I see (most of the late 20s crowd) just didn't have their **** together. It wasn't because they were off making millions on wallstreet or being a single parent or working 3 jobs. Yeah, some stories like that. I respect the hell out of those. Most are just former wash-ups that finally started to put in the effort and show the discipline needed to succeed.

It's not necessarily a matter of "not having your **** together" or being a "wash-up," dude. Not everybody decides on becoming a doctor when they're in college. Some people choose a different track and then become inspired to switch to medicine later on in life. For example, if you study engineering in undergrad with the intention of becoming an engineer, your GPA doesn't matter all that much; however, if you feel inspired later on in life to become a physician, you might have to do some GPA repair to become competitive. That doesn't mean that you were "washed up" or "didn't have your **** together" when you were an undergrad. It means your goals changed late in the game, so you had to readjust.

Also, it's incorrect to call the non-trad track a "second chance," because that implies that non-trads failed during their "first chance" to become physicians. Many non-trads had little or no interest in medicine during their college years, so in many cases they're pursuing their first chance at a career in medicine.

 

[Ligament]

The sooner the better. Medical training wastes a ton of your life and money. Now as a 40 something attending physician, I could never handle the call and physical toil I went through in medical school/internship/residency/fellowship at this age. Admittedly, I did my training before you wimps had the 80 work week restriction in place ;-)

Medical school itself is largely a waste of time. Should be compressed to 1 year of classses and then into internship. Nothing I learned in medical school except anatomy and physiology was of any use to me for any other part of my medical career. Business classes would have been VERY useful but of course they don't want you to learn anything about business so that you will support the continued domination of hospital employers and/or fall victim to socialized medicine propaganda. Clinical training is what matters. Get young docs into the clinics asap.

Med schools make a ton of money off you. It is a scam.

i think we should also skip undergrad degrees. Also a waste of time if you are going to become a physician. I get that they say they want a "well rounded" physician but what they really mean is they want more of your educational dollars to feed their undergrad colleges.

The educational system makes a TON of money ripping off students. $70k/year for a BA in anything is such an obvious waste of money and timeI cannot believe the US population puts up with this crap. Yes, I got a BA from a top university and it was a complete waste of time and money.

I'd forgo all my undergrad training and 2-3 years of med school training if I had the opportunity.

Internship/residency/fellowhship is where 95% of real medical education happens.

 

[TheIllusionist]

old people jimmz rustled success

and yes agreed aptitude wise they similar

 

[Gurby]

old people jimmz rustled success

and yes agreed aptitude wise they similar

 

[Sleepingdoc]

so much cope. it's okay. we can't all both enjoy life and accomplish our goals at an earlier age. plenty of the direct crowd had great social lives and many are plenty mature. most elite doctors of generations past and internationally do it directly. don't get me wrong, the second chances america offers are great. But they are known as such for a reason

some, not all non trads might also be dumber. Hence, why it takes them longer to master same info needed for med school. There is a reason USMLE scores and MCAT scored correlate inversely with age. But keep lying to yourself about your superior social skills and wisdom.

There are people who are a lot more accomplished than a 22 year old who had just started med school and was just an undergrad a year ago. There are students that have Phd's/second careers and have much more life experiences which cannot be summed up by a step or mcat score and physicians who have been working for 25 years that would not pass the USMLE today if they were to retake it.

There are many mature 22 year olds but there are also many who are just neurotic " born to be doctors" and act like it even when they are in high school, pressured by their parents/society. Nothing wrong with that, but these are just different circumstances.

 

[Tenk]

A couple things nobody seems to have mentioned:

1) nights get incredibly harder as you get older to the point of forcing retirement in many cases.
2) your chance of death increases with age. This is just common sense but if you actually look at the math someone in their 50s is about 10 times more likely to die in the next year than someone in their 30s. If all we did was hire applicants in their 50s, we’d soon have an even more enormous doctor shortage than we already do based on simple math alone. Granted that’s an extreme example but you need to go to extremes to look at large populations which is what we as doctors actually serve as a whole.
3) the finances really aren’t there unless you go into a highly lucrative specialty.
4) this isn’t happy fun time. Medical school and residency are not easy and are not vacation. Having been through both and being only in my 30s, there is no way in hell I would ever even consider doing it 20 years later. I’d rather be on a beach or on a mountain. Life is too short to work yourself to death.

 

[TheIllusionist]

The sooner the better. Medical training wastes a ton of your life and money. Now as a 40 something attending physician, I could never handle the call and physical toil I went through in medical school/internship/residency/fellowship at this age. Admittedly, I did my training before you wimps had the 80 work week restriction in place ;-)

Medical school itself is largely a waste of time. Should be compressed to 1 year of classses and then into internship. Nothing I learned in medical school except anatomy and physiology was of any use to me for any other part of my medical career. Business classes would have been VERY useful but of course they don't want you to learn anything about business so that you will support the continued domination of hospital employers and/or fall victim to socialized medicine propaganda. Clinical training is what matters. Get young docs into the clinics asap.

Med schools make a ton of money off you. It is a scam.

i think we should also skip undergrad degrees. Also a waste of time if you are going to become a physician. I get that they say they want a "well rounded" physician but what they really mean is they want more of your educational dollars to feed their undergrad colleges.

The educational system makes a TON of money ripping off students. $70k/year for a BA in anything is such an obvious waste of money and timeI cannot believe the US population puts up with this crap. Yes, I got a BA from a top university and it was a complete waste of time and money.

I'd forgo all my undergrad training and 2-3 years of med school training if I had the opportunity.

Internship/residency/fellowhship is where 95% of real medical education happens.

Thank you. Get done earlier and younger and more business sense for grads. I agree. The socialists that want 2 years of extra social justice...

 

[TheIllusionist]

There are people who are a lot more accomplished than a 22 year old who had just started med school and was just an undergrad a year ago. There are students that have Phd's/second careers and have much more life experiences which cannot be summed up by a step or mcat score and physicians who have been working for 25 years that would not pass the USMLE today if they were to retake it.

There are many mature 22 year olds but there are also many who are just neurotic " born to be doctors" and act like it even when they are in high school, pressured by their parents/society. Nothing wrong with that, but these are just different circumstances.

Some not all. Just like some not all of 22 year olds. Enough again are washupz but they pretend to be the ultra accomplished former type who happened to switch. Reason first time admit rate is 50%

People dont like to admit fault. They want to act like their journeys were all super special and perfect. They are half right. They were special. But in many cases they were imperfect hence why it took the longer to end up in the same career position as someone younger.

 

[Goro]

Lot of raw nerves on display in this thread. Who knew?