How open are "top tier" schools to older applicants?

[WaterPog]

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So, I've been thinking a lot about my "where to apply" list and I find myself in a bit of an awkward situation. If my MCAT comes back in line with my practice tests I'll have a LizzyM score in the upper-mid 70's, which is good enough on paper for about any school out there.

My EC's are in good shape, and I think my story is pretty compelling (former mfg. engineer w/o degree, small business owner, single dad of 2 since '03 including while in school, experienced being on the receiving end of welfare/food stamps due to lack of education, etc.)

The one real wild card in my application is my age, I'll turn 40 next August during the application cycle. I'm not worried about being able to get in somewhere so much right now, and I'll be applying both MD and DO, but I really have not been able to find much data on how big of a factor my age will be with the high end schools that I would really love to be allowed to attend.

Thoughts?

 

[NuttyEngDude]

It sure would be neat if the MSAR had age ranges in their matriculant demographics. But too bad, maybe in the future.

I think you should call a handful of schools you are interested in and just ask (or send e-mail).

I do remember someone posting on the non-trad forums saying they called Harvard and their response was "we've never accepted anyone 40 years old!"


I read Pritzker doesnt care if you are that old in one of their podcasts:
http://pritzkerpodcast.com/2009/02/06/17-oldest-medical-students-mp3/
"JK: Sure. So in my lifetime at Pritzker, which has been about four years, so looking at kind of some recent history, some of the older pre-med students or medical students that we’ve ever admitted here in my recollection have been between about 38 and 40 years old. And that was typically one or maybe two students in each entering class. Our age, if you think kind of a bell curve and where the greatest concentration would be, kind of where the highest point in the curve is, is typically from about 23 to about 27 or 28. That’s typically kind of the entry age for Pritzker. And we are one of the schools that tends to have a slightly more nontraditional class compared to our peer institutions"

 

[QofQuimica]

There's a lot of bias when it comes to schools with high average stats because on average, nontrads tend to have substantially lower stats compared to trads. It's a consistent relationship, with the stats continuing to decrease the older the age group. But nontrads with stellar stats (3.8+ GPA and 35+ MCAT) tend to do very well in the admissions process. That being said, it's also true that there is age bias. Not that any school will ever admit it to you, but you're probably right that being 40 will be an issue at some schools.

My advice is to apply broadly to schools you think you might want to attend regardless of whether you think they like older students or not. It's impossible to predict ahead of time which schools will be interested in a candidate like you, and every school has accepted some students who are older. And if the school you want to attend accepts you, then who cares if they didn't accept any other forty year olds for the past decade? They only have to accept one. 🙂

 

[SN12357]

So, I've been thinking a lot about my "where to apply" list and I find myself in a bit of an awkward situation. If my MCAT comes back in line with my practice tests I'll have a LizzyM score in the upper-mid 70's, which is good enough on paper for about any school out there.

My EC's are in good shape, and I think my story is pretty compelling (former mfg. engineer w/o degree, small business owner, single dad of 2 since '03 including while in school, experienced being on the receiving end of welfare/food stamps due to lack of education, etc.)

The one real wild card in my application is my age, I'll turn 40 next August during the application cycle. I'm not worried about being able to get in somewhere so much right now, and I'll be applying both MD and DO, but I really have not been able to find much data on how big of a factor my age will be with the high end schools that I would really love to be allowed to attend.

Thoughts?

I wouldn't bother applying to Harvard. Other than that, apply broadly and go to town.

 

[NuttyEngDude]

At ~$200 a pop, I would call. If they tell you "no" on the phone you know they damn well mean it.

If, you are spending too much time on hold or some other nonsense, then make an executive decision (use your best judgment).

Keep in mind, this will probably be your best shot so if you want to do it and not go through life wondering, then do it. It's only a couple grand and this is the stuff of your dreams.


edit: even call harvard, because I cant find that post on the forums so I could (or the guy who posted it) even be wrong.

 

[SN12357]

At ~$200 a pop, I would call. If they tell you "no" on the phone you know they damn well mean it.

If, you are spending too much time on hold or some other nonsense, then make an executive decision (use your best judgment).

Keep in mind, this will probably be your best shot so if you want to do it and not go through life wondering, then do it. It's only a couple grand and this is the stuff of your dreams.


edit: even call harvard, because I cant find that post on the forums so I could (or the guy who posted it) even be wrong.

I went to Harvard Extension and the adviser for Harvard Extension students explicitly states Harvard's age bias in his orientation for the health careers program.

To paraphrase him, Harvard wants superstars (in terms of ECs, not grades). Older applicants are graded on a curve that basically asks 'what have you done in your life so far?' and if the answer isn't 'been a superstar in another field before deciding to do medicine', they aren't interested.

I think the rough number he used was after age 30.

 

[WaterPog]

Harvard isn't on my list right now anyway, I'm from Oregon and planning to apply on the west coast with a few exceptions due to family ties. Personally I'm open to going anywhere, but my kids (currently 15 & 16) really want to stay out west and I'd like them to move with me.

 

[Shjanzey]

.

 

[Goro]

Age discrimination is illegal. If you think you're the calibre for ANY medical school, then go for it! Just be practical.

So, I've been thinking a lot about my "where to apply" list and I find myself in a bit of an awkward situation. If my MCAT comes back in line with my practice tests I'll have a LizzyM score in the upper-mid 70's, which is good enough on paper for about any school out there.

My EC's are in good shape, and I think my story is pretty compelling (former mfg. engineer w/o degree, small business owner, single dad of 2 since '03 including while in school, experienced being on the receiving end of welfare/food stamps due to lack of education, etc.)

The one real wild card in my application is my age, I'll turn 40 next August during the application cycle. I'm not worried about being able to get in somewhere so much right now, and I'll be applying both MD and DO, but I really have not been able to find much data on how big of a factor my age will be with the high end schools that I would really love to be allowed to attend.

Thoughts?

 

[GreenMed]

I went to Harvard Extension and the adviser for Harvard Extension students explicitly states Harvard's age bias in his orientation for the health careers program.

To paraphrase him, Harvard wants superstars (in terms of ECs, not grades). Older applicants are graded on a curve that basically asks 'what have you done in your life so far?' and if the answer isn't 'been a superstar in another field before deciding to do medicine', they aren't interested.

I think the rough number he used was after age 30.

Darn, not something I wanted to know when I head there for my interview next week! (Yes, I'm over 30.)

I'm applying this cycle, so I can't say how it'll turn out yet, but I'm finding that many elite schools seem not just to be open to older applicants but also excited about the experiences we bring.

 

[SN12357]

Darn, not something I wanted to know when I head there for my interview next week! (Yes, I'm over 30.)

I'm applying this cycle, so I can't say how it'll turn out yet, but I'm finding that many elite schools seem not just to be open to older applicants but also excited about the experiences we bring.

Well, there are always exceptions. Congrats on the interview! I wouldn't worry about it too much. It's just another factor that goes into the calculation if you have to be super strategic about school choices.

I think someone posted the US News interview:acceptance statistics for Harvard and they only accept about 25% of applicants, which I find interesting. It's definitely on the low side for most schools. But I don't think schools bother interviewing people who they aren't willing to consider accepting.

 

[DR MOM]

I'm not sure how much age is a factor. I'm a nontrad and I've gotten quite a few high tier II's, but I'm on the younger end of nontrad (25, but partnered and parenting a school age child). I think you should apply anywhere you see yourself fitting well. I looked at schools that shared my values and were studying things that got me excited and applied to them - and I am lucky to be interviewing at almost everywhere I applied. Schools want students with a vision for the future and being 40 shouldn't knock you out of the running.

Good luck!

 

[vc7777]

Be yourself. Apply broadly like my master, Q, said. The best laid plans of mice and men often go astray (oft go awry). You don't know where you will have success.

The cool part about being a non-trad, in my opinion, is that we really shine in person. I was accepted everywhere I interviewed (save one I withdrew from while on post-interview hold) - most ASAP. We often come off much more polished, seasoned, and even-keeled.

I wasn't accepted my the med school in my backyard (they wouldn't even take my secondary money - even on personal face-to-face appeal with the Dean). Then again, I was literally the first applicant called to be accepted into my class of 32.

Also - pre-med perceptions of a "good medical school" and physician perceptions can be different. Be wary about absolutes like "I want to go to XXX med school or a top XX school". There really is something to the "fit" of a school. You'll figure it out when you are on the interview trail.

Like lingerie and fine art; don't let someone else tell you what kind of medical school you should like - figure it out by yourself - that's half the fun!

Good luck!

Your friendly "Señior Moderator"

 

[WaterPog]

Thanks for all the replies and encouragement, Particularly vc7777, your MD apps story is a real eye-opener.

Just to clarify, my question wasn't really an "I want to go to a top 10 school..." question it was more of a "is it realistic to even apply to these schools or am I wasting my time?" question. I don't have any doubt in my own abilities, and I know that age discrimination is illegal on paper and all, but there is so much subjectivity to this process that discrimination of any kind would be pretty easy to explain away if needed.

 

[vc7777]

Let me put it another way: I don't regret applying to any of the places I was rejected from. Not at all. The money was well spent. Don't be a "pinchback" and get in the mind set that you "wasted" money applying. I half jokingly said l was going to frame my Harvard rejection letter. They say you are probably not getting paid your "true market value" unless you are hearing "no" half the time during your salary negotiations. Likewise, if you are not getting some rejections, you might not be pushing yourself. In other words, I think my rejections say as much about my application as my acceptances.

Sent from my phone

 

[optopia]

Age discrimination is illegal.

Yeah... but it could still happen subtly (getting rejected for other "subjective" factors), and schools don't have to say why they reject you, so how would you prove it?

 

[theseeker4]

Age discrimination is illegal. If you think you're the calibre for ANY medical school, then go for it! Just be practical.

Lots of things are illegal, and still done every day. As far as a court of law is concerned, unless you can prove it, it didn't happen, and how are you going to prove you were discriminated against because of your age?

 

[Nasrudin]

A lot of it is, as nuttyeng suggests, dependent on how much your willing to spend. That's why the most sensible advice is always broadly. Nobody knows. That said look at your war chest and decide where to the put the resources accordingly. Don't forget med schools are kinda like a large group of hot b!tches. They haven't a trace of compunction letting a dude spend his whole pay check buying drinks only to go home with the football player who shows up late to the party.

If its any consolation when you get the residency app stage. These same b!tches have put on a few pounds, have 2 kids, their football player has turned out to be fat drunk POS, and now the ones who laughed at your advances are suddenly wanting to talk to you. I'm laughing at myself applying to programs with names that I wouldn't have a shot in hell at as an undergrad or a med student.

 

[wholeheartedly]

A lot of it is, as nuttyeng suggests, dependent on how much your willing to spend. That's why the most sensible advice is always broadly. Nobody knows. That said look at your war chest and decide where to the put the resources accordingly. Don't forget med schools are kinda like a large group of hot b!tches. They haven't a trace of compunction letting a dude spend his whole pay check buying drinks only to go home with the football player who shows up late to the party.

If its any consolation when you get the residency app stage. These same b!tches have put on a few pounds, have 2 kids, their football player has turned out to be fat drunk POS, and now the ones who laughed at your advances are suddenly wanting to talk to you. I'm laughing at myself applying to programs with names that I wouldn't have a shot in hell at as an undergrad or a med student.

That's such an awesome comparison,

 

[Goro]

You guys are getting a tad too neurotic, and I do understand that the app process in anxiety-provoking, but with a little homework, you can find the age spread of the matriculants of schools, and then see that not everyone is 23. Many schools put out "fact books" or something like that that show demographic data of their classes.

Lots of things are illegal, and still done every day. As far as a court of law is concerned, unless you can prove it, it didn't happen, and how are you going to prove you were discriminated against because of your age?

 

[cabinbuilder]

Like lingerie and fine art; don't let someone else tell you what kind of medical school you should like - figure it out by yourself - that's half the fun!

:

This is probably the BEST and most ACCURATE statement I have seen on SDN in a really long time.

 

[murfettie]

So, I've been thinking a lot about my "where to apply" list and I find myself in a bit of an awkward situation. If my MCAT comes back in line with my practice tests I'll have a LizzyM score in the upper-mid 70's, which is good enough on paper for about any school out there.

My EC's are in good shape, and I think my story is pretty compelling (former mfg. engineer w/o degree, small business owner, single dad of 2 since '03 including while in school, experienced being on the receiving end of welfare/food stamps due to lack of education, etc.)

The one real wild card in my application is my age, I'll turn 40 next August during the application cycle. I'm not worried about being able to get in somewhere so much right now, and I'll be applying both MD and DO, but I really have not been able to find much data on how big of a factor my age will be with the high end schools that I would really love to be allowed to attend.

Thoughts?

the oldest guy in my class when is stated first year was 40. my school is very "high end".

and, i would like to add, it seems the less high end school are almost less open to older students. key word: seem. I have no real data other than from the ppl I've met.

 

[Chip N Sawbones]

Let me put it another way: I don't regret applying to any of the places I was rejected from. Not at all. The money was well spent. Don't be a "pinchback" and get in the mind set that you "wasted" money applying. I half jokingly said l was going to frame my Harvard rejection letter. They say you are probably not getting paid your "true market value" unless you are hearing "no" half the time during your salary negotiations. Likewise, if you are not getting some rejections, you might not be pushing yourself. In other words, I think my rejections say as much about my application as my acceptances.

Sent from my phone

This. The value of getting into your top choice school should be high enough that the secondary fee and time spent writing essays are justified, despite the low probability of success. It's like betting a dollar at 1:100 odds to win $200. Will you lose that dollar? Probaby, but the smart play is still to make the bet, because the payout more than justifies the risk. When I applied to Mayo and UNC I was almost certain I'd get rejected, but with an application as crazy as mine there was no way to be sure, and the relatively cheap tuition and quality of the schools justified the expense of applying. Of course they both rejected me and my 3.1 cGPA, but it was well worth finding out. It helped that I got a step further in the application process than I expected with Mayo, and their rejection letter was really nice. If you're going to get rejected by anyone, get rejected by the best!

 

[malaika]

This. The value of getting into your top choice school should be high enough that the secondary fee and time spent writing essays are justified, despite the low probability of success. It's like betting a dollar at 1:100 odds to win $200. Will you lose that dollar? Probaby, but the smart play is still to make the bet, because the payout more than justifies the risk. When I applied to Mayo and UNC I was almost certain I'd get rejected, but with an application as crazy as mine there was no way to be sure, and the relatively cheap tuition and quality of the schools justified the expense of applying. Of course they both rejected me and my 3.1 cGPA, but it was well worth finding out. It helped that I got a step further in the application process than I expected with Mayo, and their rejection letter was really nice. If you're going to get rejected by anyone, get rejected by the best!

ouch! this will make me want to throw rocks at their windows. Talk about rubbing it in with a smile

 

[Chip N Sawbones]

No, Mayo's rejection really was nice. It was a much better rejection letter than Virginia Commonwealth's or University of Washington's, and they didn't drag out the process unnecessarily like Rosalind Franklin and Loyola Stritch did. If you're choosing schools based on the quality of their rejection letters, I highly recommend Mayo.

 

[notbobtrustme]

If you have the numbers and ECs, go for it.