How rampant is cheating in pharmacy schools?

Started by Sparda29
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Sparda29

Sparda29

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How bad is it at your school? Personally, I think the schools are too lax about this. We always get e-mails and whatnot warning the whole class about cheating, but I never see any disciplinary action being done about it.

I find it really weird how some students I know who got caught cheating just got away with a slap on the wrist and a verbal warning. Yet, when one of my preceptors complained about chronic tardiness, they made a big deal about it saying that I might get an incomplete on the rotation, or even fail it, etc.

Since when is chronic tardiness worse than cheating?
 
I would say "very rampant". Old tests get passed down even when specifically forbidden, people work together on individual work (online quizzes, written assignments, etc.), it is common. I am not sure about wondering eyes during exams.

Would an employer care that you and some buddies took an online quiz together? I doubt it. Would an employer care that you can't get to work on time? Likely, yes.
 
Sparda29 said:
How bad is it at your school? Personally, I think the schools are too lax about this. We always get e-mails and whatnot warning the whole class about cheating, but I never see any disciplinary action being done about it.

I find it really weird how some students I know who got caught cheating just got away with a slap on the wrist and a verbal warning. Yet, when one of my preceptors complained about chronic tardiness, they made a big deal about it saying that I might get an incomplete on the rotation, or even fail it, etc.

Since when is chronic tardiness worse than cheating?
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Cheating can be quite rampant. APhA-ASP at my COP was doing fund raising by selling old tests of P1 year for $50. 🙄 Of course the school shut that down the year after. 2 students caught cheating red handed, I thought they would be kicked out for sure. Nope, academic probation only. I hope they both flunked their Naplex.

The problem here is: (1) nobody wants to be a snitch (2) school don't want to show a high % of drop out or cheating. (3) it's a victimless crime.

Preceptors don't have problem (2). If the student is tardy, that's more work for the preceptor, a good reason to give a damn. Still, lots of preceptors give higher grades than the student deserves just to avoid filling out additional paperwork if the student complains.
 
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I don't care about "tribal knowledge" like old tests being handed down, as long as everyone has access to the material. I personally think if they didn't exist, some students would still ask upperclassmen about testing style and not share the information, so the first test or so they might be a little better prepared than other classmates. One thing I've learned in pharmacy school: they don't only test over what you need to know as a pharmacist. Trivial crap abounds.

Cheating during an exam is unforgivable in my opinion. Legend has it that that occurred at my school previously, and I think those students shouldn't still be here. I'm having a hard enough time getting through the program. Why should they be allowed to breeze through with a higher GPA? Say what you like about karma, etc, they'll still look better on paper grade-wise.

Edit:

And Sparda, you've been late the entire time I've been posting on this board. Late to class, late to rotations.

Dude, you're screwed. :meanie:
 
pharm B said:
And Sparda, you've been late the entire time I've been posting on this board. Late to class, late to rotations.

Dude, you're screwed. :meanie:
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Yeah, I never really factored in parking into my travel time. If Google Maps on average told me that a commute would take 45 minutes, the earliest I'd leave is 50 minutes before I gotta get there and gamble on how easy I'd find parking.

If I gotta be somewhere at 9AM, most of the time, I'd be in the vicinity at 850AM, but I'd end up hunting for parking somewhere between 5 minutes and 45 minutes.
 
pharm B said:
I don't care about "tribal knowledge" like old tests being handed down, as long as everyone has access to the material. I personally think if they didn't exist, some students would still ask upperclassmen about testing style and not share the information, so the first test or so they might be a little better prepared than other classmates. One thing I've learned in pharmacy school: they don't only test over what you need to know as a pharmacist. Trivial crap abounds.

Cheating during an exam is unforgivable in my opinion. Legend has it that that occurred at my school previously, and I think those students shouldn't still be here. I'm having a hard enough time getting through the program. Why should they be allowed to breeze through with a higher GPA? Say what you like about karma, etc, they'll still look better on paper grade-wise.

Edit:

And Sparda, you've been late the entire time I've been posting on this board. Late to class, late to rotations.

Dude, you're screwed. :meanie:
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This.

There was nothing worse with old exams is when some people had them and others didn't. And for that to matter in the overall grade because of repeat questions. For me it was always fun to beat the people with the old exams and do better.

Academic dishonesty happened a lot of time. Probably less on exams and more on other assignments such as quizzes and case reports. But all in all, in the real world people need to work together and put pieces together. You rarely ever have to make a decision alone in the world in pharmacy if you don't want to. I mean even a script, if you are "unsure" about one thing or another, you can call the prescriber, and very few things are urgencies or emergencies that you wouldn't have time for a call.

I do understand the morality issue of cheating but its really unfortunate that pharmacy school does not focus on more important and relevant points.
 
pharm B said:
Cheating during an exam is unforgivable in my opinion. Legend has it that that occurred at my school previously, and I think those students shouldn't still be here. I'm having a hard enough time getting through the program. Why should they be allowed to breeze through with a higher GPA? Say what you like about karma, etc, they'll still look better on paper grade-wise.
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We had a MAJOR issue two years ago that resulted in a major overhaul of our eLearning system and every student school-wide had to reaffirm there commitment to integrity, etc. It was 4th years I think and the school I suppose was reluctant to kick them out (and the issue involved SEVERAL students). The school tried to make it sound like perhaps expectations were not made clear, as though people don't know when they are being dishonest. 🙄
 
its very prevalent and not done anything b/c schools dont want to lose the money by throwing them out of school
 
Sparda29 said:
Yeah, I never really factored in parking into my travel time. If Google Maps on average told me that a commute would take 45 minutes, the earliest I'd leave is 50 minutes before I gotta get there and gamble on how easy I'd find parking.

If I gotta be somewhere at 9AM, most of the time, I'd be in the vicinity at 850AM, but I'd end up hunting for parking somewhere between 5 minutes and 45 minutes.
Click to expand...

Leave your home earlier then?
 
owlegrad said:
We had a MAJOR issue two years ago that resulted in a major overhaul of our eLearning system and every student school-wide had to reaffirm there commitment to integrity, etc. It was 4th years I think and the school I suppose was reluctant to kick them out (and the issue involved SEVERAL students). The school tried to make it sound like perhaps expectations were not made clear, as though people don't know when they are being dishonest. 🙄
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E-Learning always has this flaw when it's allowed to be used from your personal computer instead of the computers at school. Even if it's used at school, there's no real way to prevent people from having multiple windows open and Alt-Tabbing in between them when the proctor isn't looking.

Back in high school, our Cisco CCNA class was like this. After multiple incidents of people alt-tabbing, the teacher decided to use this system:

#1 - Log in for each student and assign seating.
#2 - Disconnect and remove all keyboards.

Problem solved because the test can be taken with just a mouse.
 
There are old tests in some classes, but sometimes the professors just give them to us anyway so I'd hardly count it as cheating. Odd that this comes up today though, we just had an exam, and on the front page it had something like "I affirm that I have not given nor received any assistance on this exam." I don't really know about any cheaters, but I can tell you there is no way that little box of text changed anything that would or would not have happened.
 
Sparda29 said:
E-Learning always has this flaw when it's allowed to be used from your personal computer instead of the computers at school. Even if it's used at school, there's no real way to prevent people from having multiple windows open and Alt-Tabbing in between them when the proctor isn't looking.

Back in high school, our Cisco CCNA class was like this. After multiple incidents of people alt-tabbing, the teacher decided to use this system:

#1 - Log in for each student and assign seating.
#2 - Disconnect and remove all keyboards.

Problem solved because the test can be taken with just a mouse.
Click to expand...
Reminds me of my high school keyboarding class. Teacher went around with a screwdriver and popped out all the backspace/delete/insert keys before the tests so you couldn't fix any mistakes.
 
Cheating is nothing new, but is will catch up with the person. It's pretty much impossible to cheat on the NABPLEX.
 
Ackj said:
There are old tests in some classes, but sometimes the professors just give them to us anyway so I'd hardly count it as cheating. Odd that this comes up today though, we just had an exam, and on the front page it had something like "I affirm that I have not given nor received any assistance on this exam." I don't really know about any cheaters, but I can tell you there is no way that little box of text changed anything that would or would not have happened.
Click to expand...

I agree, but we have classes where it is specifically not allowed to have access to old tests. You can imagine how effective that policy is.
 
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pharm B said:
One thing I've learned in pharmacy school: they don't only test over what you need to know as a pharmacist. Trivial crap abounds.
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How did I miss commenting on this earlier?! Well, here goes.

Trivia in pharmacy school?! You must be kidding. I assure you all that fine print with excruciating detail, examples that turn into unrelated questions, and stuff not even covered in lecture will be vital - VITAL - to your ability to practice pharmacy. They wouldn't test on stuff that's not important.
 
owlegrad said:
How did I miss commenting on this earlier?! Well, here goes.

Trivia in pharmacy school?! You must be kidding. I assure you all that fine print with excruciating detail, examples that turn into unrelated questions, and stuff not even covered in lecture will be vital - VITAL - to your ability to practice pharmacy. They wouldn't test on stuff that's not important.
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Yes, I'm sure that knowing who discovered Drug X in Year Y will be vital to my ability to practice pharmacy. If I didn't like history, or reading about history, I'd consider the history of pharmacy/medicine to be an absolute waste. Do we really need to know about how pharmacists branched down from apothecaries, etc, etc.
 
IMO....who cares about cheating to get thru school....YOU STILL HAVE TO PASS THE NAPLEX!!!! to get licensed and to practice as a pharmacist and it is IMPOSSIBLE to cheat on that test.
 
The problem is that the NAPLEX seems to be woefully easy. What is it, a >90% pass rate? Most of my pharm school exams are less than that. Make it harder I say, cut out the riff-raff.
 
homeslice said:
The problem is that the NAPLEX seems to be woefully easy. What is it, a >90% pass rate? Most of my pharm school exams are less than that. Make it harder I say, cut out the riff-raff.
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The 10% or so that fail will just take it again and pass sooner or later. I have only heard of 1 person failing the max of 3 times on naplex. Sooner or later they will pass anyhow so why make it harder? It will cause more headaches for people who are borderline competent lol.
 
Sparda29 said:
How bad is it at your school? Personally, I think the schools are too lax about this. We always get e-mails and whatnot warning the whole class about cheating, but I never see any disciplinary action being done about it.

I find it really weird how some students I know who got caught cheating just got away with a slap on the wrist and a verbal warning. Yet, when one of my preceptors complained about chronic tardiness, they made a big deal about it saying that I might get an incomplete on the rotation, or even fail it, etc.

Since when is chronic tardiness worse than cheating?
Click to expand...

In the real world, chronic tardiness is pretty bad, and can get you fired, which maybe the lesson your preceptor is trying to teach you.

I don't think you realize that preceptors don't answer to your school, and are actually doing your school a favor by precepting, and can/will fail students that don't measure up to the preceptor's standards. You have 3 choices. Show up on time and pass, or request to be pulled from the site, or fail the site. Last 2 choices mean you have to redo the rotation.

Cheating happens everywhere. I tend to believe in that it will catch up to them one day.

Making the Naplex harder isn't going to solve the current pharmacy employment issues.
 
How about you focus on showing up on time, prepared and let the academic system work itself out vis-a-vie cheating. Unless you're on the the academic review commitee or someone violates the federal privacy laws, you aren't getting the full story.
 
Cheating is very common in my college. For example, one of the student stole the exam from professor's room before the actual exam. He passed the stolen exam to couple of people.

Guess what they got for punishment? Zero on that exam. No one was kicked out.

It's like school does not care about cheating.
 
Everyone is very hush hush about having old exams at my school. I didn't even know they were out there until it was accidentally emailed out to my entire group while exchanging articles for a research paper. When some group members asked the individual for future exams he said that's the only one he had.:laugh:
 
Yeah, Phi Delta Chi had a web group (I forget if it was yahoo or google) set up specifically for old exams. They also had the reputation of having people memorize questions from exams not returned so that they could be recreated. I'm sure the other fraternity on campus did as well, but it wasn't as well known. My LKS chapter wanted to emulate, but I didn't allow it in the 2 years I had any say in the matter. I can tell they used to have an exam database in the past, and I'm not sure if they've since set something up.
 
30Percent said:
Everyone is very hush hush about having old exams at my school. I didn't even know they were out there until it was accidentally emailed out to my entire group while exchanging articles for a research paper. When some group members asked the individual for future exams he said that's the only one he had.:laugh:
Click to expand...

This hasn't happened at my school, since we don't get our exams back. Reviewing your test after the exam has to be done by appointment at the professor's office.

The kind of cheating I'm talking about is peaking or communicating with other students.
 
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Sparda29 said:
This hasn't happened at my school, since we don't get our exams back. Reviewing your test after the exam has to be done by appointment at the professor's office.

The kind of cheating I'm talking about is peaking or communicating with other students.
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PeEking or talking with other students during exams is pretty much not seen at my school. During quizzes..maybe.
 
Farmercyst said:
They also had the reputation of having people memorize questions from exams not returned so that they could be recreated.
Click to expand...

Students a year ahead of me got caught doing this. The professor reacted by giving the whole class, and future classes, all of the information being passed around. She refused to tell us if the information was accurate or if she had changed some questions, just wanted to make sure that everyone was at the same level heading into the exam.
 
Rho Chi sells old exam packets as a fundraiser here...they're available to all, for a fee...school sanctioned. There is supposedly a pretty strict student-enforced honor code here, too. I don't know much about it, but if you cheat, you end up in front of some students who decide your fate, I believe.
 
This is a fascinating topic. At my school, we have one shared email account that everyone is encouraged to sent old tests to, then they are sorted into folders 😛1 Fall", "P3 Spring" etc. This has been happening since 1996. The professors nearly never use new test questions, so it's a bit of a give away.

There are more 'layers' to this topic than that done on the side of a student. Sharing old exams (which our dean of student affairs says is NOT cheating), people going on vacation so they take a test early then tell all their buddies about it, etc these sorts of things happen and of course we all have opinions.

However, at my school there is a whole additional layer on the side of the instructors. For example, if you as a student do not check every single response on every single exam (some exams have 140 questions, some weeks we have 4 exams) you will 'lose points' because there are problems on the prof's side such as:

1.) They often mis-grade our tests. This happens much more often than it should here, but it's just a known problem despite having a machine that grades our ScanTron forms.

2.) they actually switch our grades with other students and unless you do the work of the teacher to sort it out, you don't know heads from tails.

3.) Students argue against the teacher for a given answer in addition to the one deemed correct, and gain points this way. However, only those whom take the time to individually argue with the prof get the points. Despite the computer age, all those who also chose "B" do not get the points. Do you see the huge skewing?

4.) Redacted errors in questions are the responsibility of the student to (a.) hear about, (b.) track the prof down, and (c.) remind the blue-haired prof that they emailed that they would accept "B" as well some months ago. Frankly, most of us just stop caring and doing all this nonsense, accepting a B as opposed to a B+.

I know this is just my deadbeat faculty at my small school, but I reckon this happens to an extent in most places. Given that, I question how hugely grades matter. Of course I want to get passing grades, but the morale is so poor at my school beyond that I just want to quietly exit campus.

My opinion is that if 'smart' students are compelled to cheat, or if this is common at a given school one ought to look behind the mirror and question what is wrong with the school. Clearly a school could exist that is so grossly missing the point that most students find the risk of academic dishonesty a more appealing decision than just memorizing the ppt slideshows.

I do not encourage cheating, but I do know that such poor schools exist that this is a rational decision and can become the culture of a student body.
 
Its impossible to cheat at my school. Tests are computerized and questions are in random order for every student. We can only see our scores after tests are over. If you wanted to see what you missed you would have to go to a scheduled remediation session to look at your test and ask questions. You are not allowed to take a picture of it or write the questions down during the session.

And since we are allowed 2 retests if we didn't hit competency ( 80% or 90% depending on the class), each test has at least 10 versions, all with different questions of the same difficulty level. So you pretty much will never get the same question again for retests.
 
Chriskahn said:
Its impossible to cheat at my school. Tests are computerized and questions are in random order for every student. We can only see our scores after tests are over. If you wanted to see what you missed you would have to go to a scheduled remediation session to look at your test and ask questions. You are not allowed to take a picture of it or write the questions down during the session.

And since we are allowed 2 retests if we didn't hit competency ( 80% or 90% depending on the class), each test has at least 10 versions, all with different questions of the same difficulty level. So you pretty much will never get the same question again for retests.
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2 retests ????? Thats even better than udergrad... wow
 
my school cramped the entire grade(around 250 people) into an auditorium and had about 7 preceptors walking around the entire spot to keep an eye on things. Draw your own conclusions on that one
 
I feel stupid posting in this old of a thread. but wtf- you people got to retake tests!? Let me guess, everyone graduates with a 4.0.... cool story. and 250 people in a CLASS!?

oh and there was no way in hell we could have cheated. randomized test on the computer. nothing allowed on a person aside from clothing (no hats etc). all scratch paper provided by proctor, returned at the end of class, etc, etc.
 
fauxden said:
I feel stupid posting in this old of a thread. but wtf- you people got to retake tests!? Let me guess, everyone graduates with a 4.0.... cool story. and 250 people in a CLASS!?

oh and there was no way in hell we could have cheated. randomized test on the computer. nothing allowed on a person aside from clothing (no hats etc). all scratch paper provided by proctor, returned at the end of class, etc, etc.
Click to expand...

Wtf is right. I have read about retake thingy at some new schools but now I know several old/established schools doing this too (including retaking the whole classes in the summer if the students fail). Just like law school's inflation with grades. Soon we are gonna have 200-300s pharm schools pumping out all grads w perfect 4.0. How would you fail then ??
 
we had a dude get caught in the auditorium cheating. he literally had a bluetooth on his ear and was talking to someone in another room. no hat or hoodie covering it up or nothing. just sitting there talking to himself. one of the people patrolling the aisles heard whispers coming from his area and he got caught and thrown out. not sure what punishments were handed out but the dude still graduated the same time as the rest of us. probably with honors too. what a joke lol
 
There is no gpa at my school. Its honors/satisfactory/fail.

I don't think retesting is a bad thing. Especially when passing is 90% or higher with a time limit. It insures competency.

Better than gpa schools where anyone can still pass with a 2.0
 
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Chriskahn said:
There is no gpa at my school. Its honors/satisfactory/fail.

I don't think retesting is a bad thing. Especially when passing is 90% or higher with a time limit. It insures competency.

Better than gpa schools where anyone can still pass with a 2.0
Click to expand...

uhh... so when you go to apply for a residency or something what do you say when they ask about gpa? And our class average on a test was no where near 90%. I mean... I bet there was less than 10 kids that would get an A on a test. But at your school, everyone gets an A. That's something to think about.... quality of the education? ease of program?
eh - who gives a crap. it's a flooded market.
 
lol that is exactly something to think about. It takes a lot of students multiple tries to get that 90%. So yes, everyone gets an A by KNOWING the material. There are 28 tests total each semester. 7 block testing all together, each block containing 4 subjects. And that's not including electives or labs. Not getting 80% or 90% in just one is an automatic fail for the subject, even if you passed 27 of them. Its not easy that's for sure. Like I said, you never get the same questions twice.

A ton of medical schools have the same h/s/f system, it doesn't lessen the quality of education at all. It enhances it actually.

For residencies, the honors section is what separate exceptional students. There are class rankings and we get a letter from the school itself explaining the h/s/f system.

Its nothing new, the h/s/f system has been around for quite some time.
 
fauxden said:
uhh... so when you go to apply for a residency or something what do you say when they ask about gpa? And our class average on a test was no where near 90%. I mean... I bet there was less than 10 kids that would get an A on a test. But at your school, everyone gets an A. That's something to think about.... quality of the education? ease of program?
eh - who gives a crap. it's a flooded market.
Click to expand...

I remember reading somewhere that the average Harvard student's letter grade in a class is A-. That says all you need to know about GPA.
 
Oh **** this thread is back. Hmm I had rotations around this time so the only tests I took after this was the licensing exams. Holy ****, there was a **** ton of cheating on the NYS Part 3 exam and it was pretty easy to do it too. People just kept going to the bathroom and looked up the answers on their smart phones.
 
Sparda29 said:
Oh **** this thread is back. Hmm I had rotations around this time so the only tests I took after this was the licensing exams. Holy ****, there was a **** ton of cheating on the NYS Part 3 exam and it was pretty easy to do it too. People just kept going to the bathroom and looked up the answers on their smart phones.
Click to expand...

That really surprises me. Has the whole country gone cheating mad? When I took the NABPLEX (pre NAPLEX) and state laws exams, there was no going to the bathroom. Once someone left the room, their test was finished. Every precaution was taken to prevent cheating.
 
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