How should I pursue DO school?

[DouglusMcDougal]

I have a bachelors in biology with a 3.1 cumulative GPA, 2.8 science gpa, and I'm finsihing a masters thesis in biomedical engineering with a 3.455 gpa. I'll also be probably publishing about 4 papers or more with 1 being possibly 1st author depending. My question is how should I go about pursuing DO school? Should I

A) Retake undergrad classes and apply to DO schools

B) Take upper level under grad classes and apply

C) Do a post bacc program

D) Do a special masters program

E) Do another masters program

F) Apply to DO school with what I have and I should be able to get in

G) Apply to MD school with what I have and I should be able to get in

H) Take some other option I haven't stated here (please specify)

I) Go for a Phd in biomedical engineering, biomedical science, biology, and then apply to MD/DO schools.

J) Some combination of these options (please specify)


Another question I have is that I know MD schools supposedly don't look at graduate gpa, but can DO schools look at grad gpa and use that as grade forgiveness for undergrad gpa? I mean I've worked really hard in engineering and have matured greatly since undergrad so I don't really feel undergrad represents me well anymore. Please give constructive and respectful responses. Thank you kindly.

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[Doctoblast]

Have you taken the MCAT? I would definitely recommend retaking science classes you did poorly in during undergrad if you plan on applying DO.

 

[DouglusMcDougal]

No I haven't taken the MCAT yet as I've been focused on finishing my masters. What about the 4 big Caribbean schools? Should I just apply there? I personally don't see how I'd need to retake those classes when I have around 3.5 in a hard engineering science. I don't see how they wouldn't be enough for DO. How do DO schools look at grad gpa? Can that compensate for a lower undergrad gpa?

 

[Doctoblast]

Absolutely do not even consider the Caribbean. A simple search on this forum will give you enough reason why not to. If you retake a C and get an A, then DO schools will only count the A in your GPA. This will help your GPA out dramatically. Nobody denies that Engineering is hard, but it's not included in the science GPA for MD schools. I think for DO, your engineering courses get averaged in with your undergrad courses for a cumulative GPA.

Edit: engineering counts as science for DO schools, so it would average in with your undergrad science GPA.

http://help.unicas.com:8888/aacomas...-history-2/aacomas-course-subjects/index.html

 

[drsmpc]

Before you spend money on retaking classes - do the MCAT and see how you do.
Let us know how it goes; we can then give you further recommendations on improving your application.
So, I'd choose: Option K) Take the MCAT

 

[DouglusMcDougal]

Thanks a great deal for your constructive responses guys. If I were to retake classes which letter grades should I retake? Also, I've avoided the whole retaking classes deal because I rather move forward than backward but I'd still consider it. That being said, say if I did a phd. Would that likely get me into a DO program somewhere? I like that option because I'd be moving forward and it work as a good fall back option which would give me something to actually show for. It could make me appealing for an actual job instead of having a bunch of seemingly useless bio degrees and coursework. I can't believe you can go to grad school and these schools would look at it like its nothing. That really isn't right.

 

[OrdinaryDO]

You can't go into this process with a sense of entitlement. You may have some hard engineering courses, but there are plenty of engineers applying to medical schools and plenty of upper level bio courses are considered very hard as well. Take the MCAT and then apply. DO schools have a lower acceptance rate than MD so don't come looking for an easy path to a doctor degree.

 

[Doctoblast]

Before you spend money on retaking classes - do the MCAT and see how you do.
Let us know how it goes; we can then give you further recommendations on improving your application.
So, I'd choose: Option K) Take the MCAT

Even with a good MCAT, a 2.8 sGPA is pretty lethal. After factoring in the grad school GPA it might go up to about a 3.2ish. Although people have gotten in with that low of a GPA I wouldn't count on it with the increasing competitiveness of getting into DO schools.

Thanks a great deal for your constructive responses guys. If I were to retake classes which letter grades should I retake? Also, I've avoided the whole retaking classes deal because I rather move forward than backward but I'd still consider it. That being said, say if I did a phd. Would that likely get me into a DO program somewhere? I like that option because I'd be moving forward and it work as a good fall back option which would give me something to actually show for. It could make me appealing for an actual job instead of having a bunch of seemingly useless bio degrees and coursework. I can't believe you can go to grad school and these schools would look at it like its nothing. That really isn't right.

If you did retake courses, pretty much retake anything that's a C or below. I'm not really 100% sure how getting a phd would be seen because your undergrad will still stick with you. It could very well be seen positively, but a phd can take years to get. If after all that time you still want to go to med school you might have to answer the question of why you didn't just spend a semester retaking classes and apply. You want to show adcoms that being a physician is your #1 goal. You'd also be losing years of youth and a physician's salary. If med school doesn't work out, you could always go back and get your phd.

Study hard, do well on the MCAT, see where your actual GPAs are after factoring in the grad school gpa (you can find gpa calculators by searching this forum), and make sure you have good extracurriculars and letters of recommendation.

 

[DouglusMcDougal]

Not really entitled to anything and that's why I'm laying out all these other options. If I was entitled I'd be assuming I'd just get into any school regardless. Personally I thought biology courses were by far the hardest courses I've taken even when compared to engineering. I'm just alluding to the perception that people (admissions committees included) may perceive engineering as more difficult. Also engineering I believe is considered to be among the " hard sciences" whereas biology is a more moderate science in terms of how people view it.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Not really, the adcoms don't really care about "hard science" and view them all pretty much the same. Example, someone with a Bio degree and a 3.7 and someone with an engineering degree and a 3.4 are seen as exactly that, a 3.7 and a 3.4. Retake any F,D,C coursework and rock the MCAT and you will get some love. No one (including ad coms) don't care what your degree is in. All else being equal if a 4.0 with a drawing degree having only taken strictly science pre-reqs, and an engineer with a long hard science degree and a 3.2 are compared the drawing student gets the points for higher GPA. You should aim to get your sGPA over a 3.25 because that puts you above the cutoff for all DO schools. Goodluck, don't rush the process and you will be fine!

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Oh and retaking classes is moving forward... If your goal is to be a physician then a Ph.D is completely worthless to you IMO.

 

[DouglusMcDougal]

Should I retake B- and C+ courses too or just C and below not including C+?

 

[doctruopa]

I would retake both. Especially, if you are certain you will get the A in the B- courses.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I wouldn't retake the B- but would the C+, BUT that depends on how many other retakes you have to do. Start with strictly F,D,C and go from there. You'll be surprised how fast it will jump

 

[Goro]

Retake all F/D/C science coursework. Do not retake any sort of B.

Should I retake B- and C+ courses too or just C and below not including C+?

 

[DouglusMcDougal]

Retake all F/D/C science coursework. Do not retake any sort of B.

So does this no longer apply if they removed this replacement policy since what would be the point? This thread is from a long time ago and actually went for the PhD in BME completed it in June with a 3.981. I’m seeing that engineering counts as science for the aacomas science gpa and it shows that under grad and grad gpa are all averaged into overall gpa for both science and non science. In which case shouldn’t I be competitive as is for do application with respect to gpa?

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Welcome back, then.

You should still show you passed required prerequisite courses for medical school so retake all D and F grades. But you should talk with an admissions officer if you haven't done so already. You hopefully are desirable, but graduate GPA is always expected to be relatively high. The area of your PhD degree should count a bit but I am not sure exactly how for DO schools and admissions (in your case).

 

[Goro]

So does this no longer apply if they removed this replacement policy since what would be the point? This thread is from a long time ago and actually went for the PhD in BME completed it in June with a 3.981. I’m seeing that engineering counts as science for the aacomas science gpa and it shows that under grad and grad gpa are all averaged into overall gpa for both science and non science. In which case shouldn’t I be competitive as is for do application with respect to gpa?

You would be competitive.

It's always a good idea to retake the prerequisite courses That 1 failed, or received a D in, because that Material will be on the MCAT.

My school is interviewed a handful of phD holders and the time I've been on the admissions committee. They are not common applicants an application

 

[DouglusMcDougal]

I got F’s but retook them all before I graduated from that degree, and didn’t have any D’s. I spoke to some admissions representatives and 2 assistant deans. One representative said I had a terminal degree and didn’t need further coursework/degrees while an assistant dean suggested to take some upper science courses, post bac, and/or smp. I forgot to confirm whether she was on the admissions committee and not sure if she was aware engineering went into the science gpa since she mentioned taking more upper science coursework.

Another assistant dean I spoke with who stated he was on the admissions committee I asked if I should do a post bacc or smp, and he suggested I prepare for the mcat and try to get a 500/500+. He didn’t suggest to do the post bacc/smp unless I got a low mcat and then maybe take some classes he said if that were the case.

I think a response to the post bacc/smp question will just vary based on which school I speak with. I may have to speak to more schools about that, and would have to raise that issue since they may not themselves. Not sure if that was something you were thinking about in regards to my specific case . Unfortunately I also feel I’m going to have to apply offshore schools as a backup, as US admission may be difficult for me with the self inflicted undergrad performance. Thank you for your responses. I’m open to any suggestions.

Welcome back, then.

You should still show you passed required prerequisite courses for medical school so retake all D and F grades. But you should talk with an admissions officer if you haven't done so already. You hopefully are desirable, but graduate GPA is always expected to be relatively high. The area of your PhD degree should count a bit but I am not sure exactly how for DO schools and admissions (in your case).

You would be competitive.

It's always a good idea to retake the prerequisite courses That 1 failed, or received a D in, because that Material will be on the MCAT.

My school is interviewed a handful of phD holders and the time I've been on the admissions committee. They are not common applicants an application

 

[Goro]

It sounds like you might be good to go!

 

[DouglusMcDougal]

It sounds like you might be good to go!

Thank you very much. I’m taking a six month mcat prep course from the Princeton review starting in October and have to do everything I can to get as high a score as possible. Hopefully I can at least stay in the US.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Thank you very much. I’m taking a six month mcat prep course from the Princeton review starting in October and have to do everything I can to get as high a score as possible. Hopefully I can at least stay in the US.

Shoot for 505 or better. This will put you in a better position for established DO schools. You want to avoid newer schools that haven't graduated more than a class or 2. Newer schools need to get their faculty and curriculum up to speed and it takes a few graduating classes to do that. This will ensure you have a better shot at a good Step 1 and 2 score for when you apply to residencies. Also, make sure your shadowing, volunteering, and community service hours are up to standard. Good luck and best wishes!

 

[DouglusMcDougal]

It sounds like you might be good to go!

Just to give an update I recently took the MCAT and received a 502 with the section scores being 124/123/127/128. To reiterate my undergraduate GPA was 3.1 in biology, master's thesis GPA in biomedical engineering was 3.45, and PhD GPA in biomedical engineering was 3.981. I estimate I have about 200 hours of clinical volunteering as a hospital volunteer, 50 non-clinical hours, I put in about 100 hours for shadowing a surgeon, over 10,000 research hours, and 6 publications in reputable peer-reviewed journals. The 6 papers include 2 first author original research articles, 2 co-first author articles one of which was a review paper and one original research article, a 2nd author original research article, a 3rd author original research article, and also a 3rd author conference article. I also did 6 conference presentations with 5 of them being first author and 1 being either a second or third. For the PhD I was on the graduate dean's list the whole way through, can't recall for the masters, and I believe once for the bachelors but I was not mature enough for my studies at the time. This is just to give some background information. How do you think I should proceed or not proceed? To be honest I already applied to 8 MD schools (to give it a shot) and 12 DO schools a few days ago. I ask for anyone's advice/feedback here. Thank you very much for your time and advice thus far as it is greatly valued.

 

[DO2015CA]

What did the aacomas sgpa come out to when factoring all your PhD work?

I think the 502 combined with all of the extracurriculars you did when pursuing the phd will be enough. If it was me, I would put all the eggs in the DO basket and apply to more. But I’m risk adverse.

 

[DouglusMcDougal]

What did the aacomas sgpa come out to when factoring all your PhD work?

I think the 502 combined with all of the extracurriculars you did when pursuing the phd will be enough. If it was me, I would put all the eggs in the DO basket and apply to more. But I’m risk adverse.

Hello DO2015CA,

Thank you very much for your response. When factoring in everything my overall science GPA came out to a 3.33. I'm a little concerned because my undergraduate GPA's were not great (below a 3) because I was a total fool back then and put in essentially no effort. I had 6 F's back then but retook all of them. I had a bunch of C's as well and 1 C- in gen chem but a B+ in gen chem 2. I see there are programs that require at least a C in prereqs but there are programs that do not. I would have thought that the B+ in gen chem 2 would have made up for that C-, and I would have never allowed those grades to occur today. I honestly think I'm a completely different person where my graduate GPA was 3.82 cumulative and 3.84 cumulative science but a lot of that is in biomedical engineering (other science) which does all go into the science GPA but I wonder how they will view it. All those engineering classes are really predominantly science classes or applied science classes. Would you happen to know if they will look at the undergraduate GPA more or the overall GPA more (undergraduate and graduate averaged)? Any sense how they view biomedical engineering? I can apply to more schools and I'm also looking at Caribbean schools as a backup but can't find concrete statistics on them anywhere. Thank you again DO20125CA.

Best regards,

 

[Goro]

Just to give an update I recently took the MCAT and received a 502 with the section scores being 124/123/127/128. To reiterate my undergraduate GPA was 3.1 in biology, master's thesis GPA in biomedical engineering was 3.45, and PhD GPA in biomedical engineering was 3.981. I estimate I have about 200 hours of clinical volunteering as a hospital volunteer, 50 non-clinical hours, I put in about 100 hours for shadowing a surgeon, over 10,000 research hours, and 6 publications in reputable peer-reviewed journals. The 6 papers include 2 first author original research articles, 2 co-first author articles one of which was a review paper and one original research article, a 2nd author original research article, a 3rd author original research article, and also a 3rd author conference article. I also did 6 conference presentations with 5 of them being first author and 1 being either a second or third. For the PhD I was on the graduate dean's list the whole way through, can't recall for the masters, and I believe once for the bachelors but I was not mature enough for my studies at the time. This is just to give some background information. How do you think I should proceed or not proceed? To be honest I already applied to 8 MD schools (to give it a shot) and 12 DO schools a few days ago. I ask for anyone's advice/feedback here. Thank you very much for your time and advice thus far as it is greatly valued.

Applying to MD will be donations.

Apply broadly to do, and don't even think about applying to the Caribbean predators

 

[DO2015CA]

Hello DO2015CA,

Thank you very much for your response. When factoring in everything my overall science GPA came out to a 3.33. I'm a little concerned because my undergraduate GPA's were not great (below a 3) because I was a total fool back then and put in essentially no effort. I had 6 F's back then but retook all of them. I had a bunch of C's as well and 1 C- in gen chem but a B+ in gen chem 2. I see there are programs that require at least a C in prereqs but there are programs that do not. I would have thought that the B+ in gen chem 2 would have made up for that C-, and I would have never allowed those grades to occur today. I honestly think I'm a completely different person where my graduate GPA was 3.82 cumulative and 3.84 cumulative science but a lot of that is in biomedical engineering (other science) which does all go into the science GPA but I wonder how they will view it. All those engineering classes are really predominantly science classes or applied science classes. Would you happen to know if they will look at the undergraduate GPA more or the overall GPA more (undergraduate and graduate averaged)? Any sense how they view biomedical engineering? I can apply to more schools and I'm also looking at Caribbean schools as a backup but can't find concrete statistics on them anywhere. Thank you again DO20125CA.

Best regards,

Please don’t apply to Caribbean schools. It’s a coin flip on being a practicing physician at the end.

What’s helping you is the time from those grades. You’re likely Coming up on 10 years from those grades and have all the PhD work since then. Imo if I was an adcom, I would at least interview you with how your application stands now. I will have a question if you have the foundational knowledge to start medschool based on those prerequisite courses. So think about your response to that because another adcom member might as well. But you did enough on the mcat and everyone has to adjust coming in.

Regarding using the mcat as your justifier, the mcat content is a mile wide and 2 inches deep meaning imo having a 502 alone doesn’t necessarily mean you have a strong grasp of the foundational knowledge. Science knowledge builds, so a lot of us say to take upper level courses because if you do well in them then by default you’ve built upon the foundational knowledge the prerequisite courses teach. You have done tons of BME which will have science courses I would assume but I’m not sure to what extent as I’ve never looked into it. Starting med school, the classes I’d want my students to have a decent foundation in are genetics, cell biology, chemistry, physics, and biochem. If through you BME work, you took more classes to solidify this knowledge then I would speak to that during interviews.

 

[DouglusMcDougal]

Please don’t apply to Caribbean schools. It’s a coin flip on being a practicing physician at the end.

What’s helping you is the time from those grades. You’re likely Coming up on 10 years from those grades and have all the PhD work since then. Imo if I was an adcom, I would at least interview you with how your application stands now. I will have a question if you have the foundational knowledge to start medschool based on those prerequisite courses. So think about your response to that because another adcom member might as well. But you did enough on the mcat and everyone has to adjust coming in.

Regarding using the mcat as your justifier, the mcat content is a mile wide and 2 inches deep meaning imo having a 502 alone doesn’t necessarily mean you have a strong grasp of the foundational knowledge. Science knowledge builds, so a lot of us say to take upper level courses because if you do well in them then by default you’ve built upon the foundational knowledge the prerequisite courses teach. You have done tons of BME which will have science courses I would assume but I’m not sure to what extent as I’ve never looked into it. Starting med school, the classes I’d want my students to have a decent foundation in are genetics, cell biology, chemistry, physics, and biochem. If through you BME work, you took more classes to solidify this knowledge then I would speak to that during interviews.

I think that the BME courses I took did have a lot of what you mentioned in that for example I took biomechanics which is physics applied to the body and those types of problems showed up a lot on the MCAT practice questions. Biotransport was another course that was basically transport phenomena where you are dealing with fluid flowing through the pipes that are your blood vessels and circulatory system. Bernoulli's equation was used quite a bit and I think both of those courses were really physics classes. I labeled them as such but they switched them back to engineering and kept them labeled under my physics prereqs. For chemistry I took biomaterials which I really believe is a lot of both chemistry, biology, and immunology. You're putting a synthetic material into the body, seeing how it can degrade, recruit cells, and immune reaction. The PhD research was largely biomaterials, polymer chemistry/science, materials science, and specifically electrospinning. I really felt that would be either chemistry or physics and labeled it as chemistry but they again switched it back to engineering and kept it listed under my chemistry prereq list that I allocated it as. For biology, I took tissue engineering which was mostly cell and molecular biology with some scaffolds/biomaterials in the mix which they again treated the same way. There was also a stem cell microenvironments course and neurorehabilitation course which they let me keep within biology related topics. Also an orthopedic device class which had a lot about bone remodeling at a cell and molecular level through osteoblasts and osteoclasts as well as bone anatomy at both a macro and micro level. There was even more with a cardiovascular mechanics class that was really a physics class on fluid flow within the circulatory and cardiac network. A biorobotics class they put down as biomedical science. I really feel like most of it should be in the scope of biology, chemistry, or physics and may dispute the topic labels.

I really feel that during the MCAT review I was able to grasp/understand the material pretty easily but I focused on doing questions (about 4000). The problem was retention and if I did more flashcards/memorization the score I think could have been higher. I didn't focus on memorization really at all but instead practice questions and content review.

 

[DouglusMcDougal]

Applying to MD will be donations.

Apply broadly to do, and don't even think about applying to the Caribbean predators

Hello Goro,

Thank you very much for your response. Do you have suggestions for schools? Maybe I can compare to what I selected and add. I used the choose DO website which provides the average GPA and MCAT scores of each DO school and compared that to my own values. Do you have any idea if these schools focus on the undergraduate GPA or the overall GPA which is an average of undergraduate and graduate GPA? Any sense of how they view biomedical engineering at the graduate level, either unfavorably/unfavorably/indifferent? Is this perceived as comparable to biomedical science (SMP) since I thought the courses were similar? Also do you think I have a good shot at DO admission or not really? Sorry for all the questions but I have read that you're the one that is most knowledgeable about this. Thank you very much for your time.

Best regards,

 

[DO2015CA]

I think that the BME courses I took did have a lot of what you mentioned in that for example I took biomechanics which is physics applied to the body and those types of problems showed up a lot on the MCAT practice questions. Biotransport was another course that was basically transport phenomena where you are dealing with fluid flowing through the pipes that are your blood vessels and circulatory system. Bernoulli's equation was used quite a bit and I think both of those courses were really physics classes. I labeled them as such but they switched them back to engineering and kept them labeled under my physics prereqs. For chemistry I took biomaterials which I really believe is a lot of both chemistry, biology, and immunology. You're putting a synthetic material into the body, seeing how it can degrade, recruit cells, and immune reaction. The PhD research was largely biomaterials, polymer chemistry/science, materials science, and specifically electrospinning. I really felt that would be either chemistry or physics and labeled it as chemistry but they again switched it back to engineering and kept it listed under my chemistry prereq list that I allocated it as. For biology, I took tissue engineering which was mostly cell and molecular biology with some scaffolds/biomaterials in the mix which they again treated the same way. There was also a stem cell microenvironments course and neurorehabilitation course which they let me keep within biology related topics. Also an orthopedic device class which had a lot about bone remodeling at a cell and molecular level through osteoblasts and osteoclasts as well as bone anatomy at both a macro and micro level. There was even more with a cardiovascular mechanics class that was really a physics class on fluid flow within the circulatory and cardiac network. A biorobotics class they put down as biomedical science. I really feel like most of it should be in the scope of biology, chemistry, or physics and may dispute the topic labels.

I really feel that during the MCAT review I was able to grasp/understand the material pretty easily but I focused on doing questions (about 4000). The problem was retention and if I did more flashcards/memorization the score I think could have been higher. I didn't focus on memorization really at all but instead practice questions and content review.

That long paragraph would be the exam explanation I’d want in an interview. How your BME graduate work used the foundational knowledge classes.

 

[Goro]

Hello Goro,

Thank you very much for your response. Do you have suggestions for schools? Maybe I can compare to what I selected and add. I used the choose DO website which provides the average GPA and MCAT scores of each DO school and compared that to my own values. Do you have any idea if these schools focus on the undergraduate GPA or the overall GPA which is an average of undergraduate and graduate GPA?

Nope; that's your job to find out

Any sense of how they view biomedical engineering at the graduate level, either unfavorably/unfavorably/indifferent? Is this perceived as comparable to biomedical science (SMP) since I thought the courses were similar?

I doubt that any Adcom will care about this, other than your GPAs. I wouldn't ding you for it, nor add any points for it.

Also do you think I have a good shot at DO admission or not really?

Admission is 100% on you. All I can suggest is that you'll get some IIs.

I suggest these schools:
MUCOM
KCU
UIW
All VCOMs except LA
ACOM
CUSOM
TUNCOM
KYCOM
WVSOM
all LECOMs
KCOM
Nova
WCU

 

[DouglusMcDougal]

That long paragraph would be the exam explanation I’d want in an interview. How your BME graduate work used the foundational knowledge classes.

Thank you, I can elaborate on that much more. Hopefully I can get in someplace. Otherwise I'm not sure if I'd like to spend another year improving an application or going abroad.

 

[DouglusMcDougal]

Nope; that's your job to find out

I doubt that any Adcom will care about this, other than your GPAs. I wouldn't ding you for it, nor add any points for it.

Admission is 100% on you. All I can suggest is that you'll get some IIs.

I suggest these schools:
MUCOM
KCU
UIW
All VCOMs except LA
ACOM
CUSOM
TUNCOM
KYCOM
WVSOM
all LECOMs
KCOM
Nova
WCU

Thank you for your response. Why don't you recommend VCOM in LA?

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Do not compare SMP rigor to any graduate education you had with engineering. As mentioned occasionally, grad GPAs are expected to be high, and your PhD GPA is irrelevant. You don't get mock physiology shelf exams while you have had to study at a pace comparable to medical education.

In history, SMPs were taught by medical school faculty with medical students taking it with you. You were graded against the medical students directly and had to score higher than them to earn your spot. It's not so challenging for many SMPs now, but you are still in a lecture hall with several dozen students at many programs... very different from PhD or MEng education.

 

[Goro]

Thank you for your response. Why don't you recommend VCOM in LA?

I cant recommend applying to brand new schools that haven't graduated a class yet. Too many issues.

 

[DouglusMcDougal]

Do not compare SMP rigor to any graduate education you had with engineering. As mentioned occasionally, grad GPAs are expected to be high, and your PhD GPA is irrelevant. You don't get mock physiology shelf exams while you have had to study at a pace comparable to medical education.

In history, SMPs were taught by medical school faculty with medical students taking it with you. You were graded against the medical students directly and had to score higher than them to earn your spot. It's not so challenging for many SMPs now, but you are still in a lecture hall with several dozen students at many programs... very different from PhD or MEng education.

Have you taken any engineering coursework? Do you hold any degree in engineering? It’s highly relevant. It factors directly into both my science and overall gpa. Not only that but the research and coursework was performed many times alongside students in the biomedical science programs within the associated medical school. Furthermore, the graduate courses I took most of the time also contained undergraduates taking the course as an upper level course. So it’s impossible to grade students at those levels differently, and most of the time the graduate students had to do more work. Longer presentations, more presentations, and longer papers. I have taken biomedical science, biology, and also engineering coursework. There’s no comparison, the engineering coursework is far and away much more difficult. The biomedical science coursework does not challenge you to think or even critically think. You’re regurgitating information at best in those classes. In engineering you have to know the terminology/concepts AND be able to perform the highest level math and physics while applied to medical related concepts. I can’t think of a more rigorous field and the statistics tend to speak for themselves. Engineering students tend to have among the lowest gpas.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Have you taken any engineering coursework? Do you hold any degree in engineering? It’s highly relevant. It factors directly into both my science and overall gpa. Not only that but the research and coursework was performed many times alongside students in the biomedical science programs within the associated medical school. Furthermore, the graduate courses I took most of the time also contained undergraduates taking the course as an upper level course. So it’s impossible to grade students at those levels differently, and most of the time the graduate students had to do more work. Longer presentations, more presentations, and longer papers. I have taken biomedical science, biology, and also engineering coursework. There’s no comparison, the engineering coursework is far and away much more difficult. The biomedical science coursework does not challenge you to think or even critically think. You’re regurgitating information at best in those classes. In engineering you have to know the terminology/concepts AND be able to perform the highest level math and physics while applied to medical related concepts. I can’t think of a more rigorous field and the statistics tend to speak for themselves. Engineering students tend to have among the lowest gpas.

Yes, i do, and i argue for bioengineering degree recipients.

I agree that the degree is very relevant, and the material is important. I know how hard the degree is to get a high GPA.

What I differ is your contention that work towards a masters or doctorate in bioengineering is equivalent to an SMP. Many engineering students have taken SMP curricula and can tell you.

 

[DouglusMcDougal]

Yes, i do, and i argue for bioengineering degree recipients.

I agree that the degree is very relevant, and the material is important. I know how hard the degree is to get a high GPA.

What I differ is your contention that work towards a masters or doctorate in bioengineering is equivalent to an SMP. Many engineering students have taken SMP curricula and can tell you.

I actually didn't make that contention. I asked Goro: "Any sense of how they view biomedical engineering at the graduate level, either unfavorably/unfavorably/indifferent? Is this perceived as comparable to biomedical science (SMP) since I thought the courses were similar?"

He responded: "I doubt that any Adcom will care about this, other than your GPAs. I wouldn't ding you for it, nor add any points for it."

I asked if it was perceived as comparable, that's all. The degrees I have don't have linkage programs or medical school interviews upon completion but I definitely think, and many will agree, that a PhD is more difficult than any master's (even an SMP) with all the work, research or otherwise. But that's all subjective. I don't think you can compare it from that perspective. It's a terminal degree and as we know is above a masters. A terminal degree is completely unpredictable as I'm sure you know and you can't just study hard and get through it. You have to support several hypotheses, rework them, and fail many many times. Nothing is certain and I believe the graduation rate from those degrees is somewhere around 50% countrywide. Depending on the school a biomedical engineering program can be in an engineering department but could also be in the biological/biomedical science department of other schools. At Rutgers Newark for example, within their PhD program in biomedical science where students take the same classes as those in their SMP, you can specialize in biomedical engineering. It's an extremely interdisciplinary field. My advisor and most of professors on my committee have titles at the affiliated medical school for both the biomedical/translational medicine program and as associate/assistant professors of orthopedic surgery since one of the applications of our research is tissue engineering/tendon and ligament repair. We have also published with orthopedic surgeons. It was possible for me to take courses at the associated medical school while I was in that program.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I actually didn't make that contention. I asked Goro: "Any sense of how they view biomedical engineering at the graduate level, either unfavorably/unfavorably/indifferent? Is this perceived as comparable to biomedical science (SMP) since I thought the courses were similar?"

He responded: "I doubt that any Adcom will care about this, other than your GPAs. I wouldn't ding you for it, nor add any points for it."

I asked if it was perceived as comparable, that's all. The degrees I have don't have linkage programs or medical school interviews upon completion but I definitely think, and many will agree, that a PhD is more difficult than any master's (even an SMP) with all the work, research or otherwise. But that's all subjective. I don't think you can compare it from that perspective. It's a terminal degree and as we know is above a masters. A terminal degree is completely unpredictable as I'm sure you know and you can't just study hard and get through it. You have to support several hypotheses, rework them, and fail many many times. Nothing is certain and I believe the graduation rate from those degrees is somewhere around 50% countrywide. Depending on the school a biomedical engineering program can be in an engineering department but could also be in the biological/biomedical science department of other schools. At Rutgers Newark for example, within their PhD program in biomedical science where students take the same classes as those in their SMP, you can specialize in biomedical engineering. It's an extremely interdisciplinary field. My advisor and most of professors on my committee have titles at the affiliated medical school for both the biomedical/translational medicine program and as associate/assistant professors of orthopedic surgery since one of the applications of our research is tissue engineering/tendon and ligament repair. We have also published with orthopedic surgeons. It was possible for me to take courses at the associated medical school while I was in that program.

Thank you for clarifying. I was addressing your question specifically at the end (perceived as comparable to SMP's since courses were similar... which they are NOT).

It is possible there are faculty members who work or collaborate with biomedical engineering faculty. They could also be teaching or mentoring graduate students. So if the university where the medical school resides also has a biomedical engineering department in their school/college of engineering that collaborates, chances are there are faculty who will have an idea and can advocate. But overall, I agree with @Goro from my observations: if that happens, it's just FYI among the faculty who want to become more familiar.

Again, these are considerations you likely have when it comes to your school list. Apply to the programs where you know the chances are best for the school to be welcoming to individuals of your background.

 

[Splenda88]

Go DO and call it a day.

I am a MD and I understand that MD might open more doors. However, getting an MD will not guarantee that you will be an ENT, Ophthalmologist, Ortho surgeon, Neurosurgeon etc...

Based on a my experience as a physician for 5 (3 yrs residency and 2 yrs as an attending) years now, no one gives a damn about the 2 letters behind your name. You just need to be competent and compassionate.

If I were in your position, I would apply to 25-30 DO schools.

 

[DouglusMcDougal]

Thanks for your responses Mr. Smile12 and Splenda88. I'm receiving secondaries (9 out of 12 DO, 1 out of 8 MD and rest are under review) from schools now but some are automatic and others screened/reviewed my application and invited. I saw that both VCOM and MUCOM both emphasize/consider the most recent 90 to 120 credits of your GPA including a masters/graduate GPA. Does anyone know of any other schools like that? I've been looking through a lot of admission pages and haven't found any others yet but there could be more. That policy could really help me out a lot. I plan on applying to more schools. Thanks.

 

[DouglusMcDougal]

I just wanted to let you guys know that I was accepted at Kansas City University - College of Osteopathic Medicine at Joplin Missouri. Thank you all for all your help as I could never thank you enough.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Spend a year and apply as a re applicant? That has issues in itself and can be viewed as a negative by schools. You would need to improve your app. I'm a little confused, you have an acceptance and now want to reapply? I never understood why people would apply to a school they don't want to attend. Take the acceptance and be a great doctor. Good luck and best wishes.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I just wanted to let you guys know that I was accepted at Kansas City University - College of Osteopathic Medicine at Joplin Missouri. Thank you all for all your help, and I could never thank you enough. It is essentially a miracle. Please let me know what you think about this school and whether you have anything good or bad to say about it. I still have many more secondaries to submit and have had 3 interviews and another 2 coming up. I'm going to submit more MD secondaries just to give it a shot. If I don't receive any MD acceptance do you think I should spend a year or even more time trying to improve my application for admission to an MD program and how should I go about that? Thank you.

Take it.
Run.

Every year is 200-400k you'll lose out on.

 

[Test Boy]

Take it.
Run.

Every year is 200-400k you'll lose out on.

Agreed. It’s crazy to wait out a year or more to try to get into a MD school. Your main GPA and MCATs are rather quite low. You got into a satellite campus of an established DO school and are waiting to see how the rest of your applications go. Just sit tight and hope for more but definitely do not wait another year to reapply cause the next time around, you might get nothing.

 

[wysdoc]

I just wanted to let you guys know that I was accepted at Kansas City University - College of Osteopathic Medicine at Joplin Missouri. Thank you all for all your help as I could never thank you enough.

Congratulations on your acceptance- KCU is one of the strongest DO schools as rated by the accrediting agency: this list shows which schools have "Accreditation with exceptional outcome"

 

[DouglusMcDougal]

Congratulations on your acceptance- KCU is one of the strongest DO schools as rated by the accrediting agency: this list shows which schools have "Accreditation with exceptional outcome"

Thanks a lot and thanks for posting that file. It really shows you care.