How the world works (or why you should attend an elite university/med school)

[ChiDO]

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I don't usually think perusal of match lists is that useful, but looking at top tier match lists is instructive; they're usually insanely strong top to bottom whereas mid tier schools have more variability. Part of this is self selection but part of it is simply program prestige. The difference between tiers of MD schools isn't at the top end of the scale so much, the very top people (step 1 > 265/AOA) generally can get into top tier schools regardless of tier if less consistently than their top tier colleagues) but Step 1 averages at Harvard and Penn are 235-240 so obviously a lot of their students are getting step scores around the national average but they're still matching into top programs.

Please refer to my signature on how stupid match lists are to even look at. Thanks.

You take that smart student who went to Harvard and put him at Noname MD and I'm sure he'll get the same board score, because boards are about individual effort not school. Hell, you take the entire Harvard class and put them at Noname MD school and I bet their avg is high again.

So no, I disagree with your notion that the name of the school matters. The ONLY thing a "named" school is good for, is the CHANCE of making a connection. But then again, you do have audition rotations to make those as well.

 

[Danlee07]

Are you certain about your numbers? If there was 10 IB positions with an acceptance rate of 0.05% that would mean they interviewed 20,000 people for 10 positions. Assuming each interview is 1 hour (probably more, especially with 2 or 3rd interviews) that means they used over 20,000 hours interviewing. Valuing each hour at $50 (this is a very low estimate, most IB divisions bill hours for much more and the interviewers are not entry level positions) that means they spent over $1,000,000 in interviewing costs. Not to mention Deutsche bank has had a couple really bad quarters recently and their IB prestige is way down

Yeah, but I didn't clarify -- there was about 20000 applications, not interviews. I don't know how many Harvard/non-Harvards apps, but there were about 70 kids at the interview of which only about 15 of us were non-Harvards. Some got slashed at the end of the first day. I made it to the 2nd and got sent home. IB prestige is still pretty up there.

I don't think my first post really was relevant specifically to this thread, but there is a disparity between Ivy Leagues and other schools because of the people that were there; if you had numerous high-ranked officials and executives from UMontana, they'd probably have some companies that would internally hire with it too. That just creates a huge amount of connections. I would equate this to dermatology. The field probably has even more specifics and standards just to filter as many people as possible to maintain such a superficial, "prestigious" image.

 

[drizzt3117]

Obviously you didn't even read my post, but I'll summarize it for you:

Some people from Harvard have average or below average board scores. They still match into great programs. For example:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=10766164&postcount=296

There's like 21 people matching internal med at MGH/BWH/BID. Care to wager what their average board score was relative to external applicants? When your home programs are top 20 in everything, it really helps in terms of matching somewhere competitive.

Please refer to my signature on how stupid match lists are to even look at. Thanks.

You take that smart student who went to Harvard and put him at Noname MD and I'm sure he'll get the same board score, because boards are about individual effort not school. Hell, you take the entire Harvard class and put them at Noname MD school and I bet their avg is high again.

So no, I disagree with your notion that the name of the school matters. The ONLY thing a "named" school is good for, is the CHANCE of making a connection. But then again, you do have audition rotations to make those as well.

 

[bigloley]

Yeah, but I didn't clarify -- there was about 20000 applications, not interviews. I don't know how many Harvard/non-Harvards apps, but there were about 70 kids at the interview of which only about 15 of us were non-Harvards. Some got slashed at the end of the first day. I made it to the 2nd and got sent home. IB prestige is still pretty up there.

I don't think my first post really was relevant specifically to this thread, but there is a disparity between Ivy Leagues and other schools because of the people that were there; if you had numerous high-ranked officials and executives from UMontana, they'd probably have some companies that would internally hire with it too. That just creates a huge amount of connections. I would equate this to dermatology. The field probably has even more specifics and standards just to filter as many people as possible to maintain such a superficial, "prestigious" image.

Yeah I know what you mean - in high prestige business/IB/trading etc. brand name is worth much much more. I went to NYU which helped because the proximity to most of the big firms allowed a much more hands on access. Most of people at the business school (Stern) were able to get IB positions and other high ranking jobs at firms like Goldman, BAMMEL, BlackRock, JP Morgan, UBS, Deutsche etc. But besides NYU there are very few non ivy leaguer's in top positions. There are tons of people from Harvard and UPenn Wharton. They only actively recruit at a few schools - the ivy's, stanford, uchicago, nyu but that's about it. If you're not from one of those schools, it's much harder to get through that hoop - you have to be proactive and have an exceptional resume.

 

[interview]

The article says - "At the time I took the survey almost 50 percent of the graduating class at Harvard was heading into finance."

I always suspected this. Most people don't know that finance is WAY more lucrative than medicine. Now my suspicions are confirmed.

 

[ppfizenm]

The article says - "At the time I took the survey almost 50 percent of the graduating class at Harvard was heading into finance."

I always suspected this. Most people don't know that finance is WAY more lucrative than medicine. Now my suspicions are confirmed.

who doesn't know this?

 

[interview]

The article also says - "look at the probability of (earned) net worth, say, $5-10M by age 40. This cuts out almost all doctors and lawyers and leaves finance, startups and entertainment (i.e., movies or television; let’s ignore sports)"

Interesting!

 

[Etorphine]

Please refer to my signature on how stupid match lists are to even look at. Thanks.

You take that smart student who went to Harvard and put him at Noname MD and I'm sure he'll get the same board score, because boards are about individual effort not school. Hell, you take the entire Harvard class and put them at Noname MD school and I bet their avg is high again.

So no, I disagree with your notion that the name of the school matters. The ONLY thing a "named" school is good for, is the CHANCE of making a connection. But then again, you do have audition rotations to make those as well.

I disagree to an extent. While I think intrinsic motivation is perhaps 80% of the package, I think one's environment is also pretty important. If one goes to a place like Harvard, they may feel more compelled to excel. Their surroundings are automatically putting them in the superstar role. On the other hand, if you go to a lower ranked school, let's say Meharry, there is a chance your motivation to enter neurosurg is going to dwindle, despite having the same intrinsic motivation. It is the "self-fulfilling prophecy," especially when everyone around you is behaving in a certain way; you may be more apt to follow the status-quo.

 

[KnuxNole]

The article says - "At the time I took the survey almost 50 percent of the graduating class at Harvard was heading into finance."

I always suspected this. Most people don't know that finance is WAY more lucrative than medicine. Now my suspicions are confirmed.

This is disappointing to be honest. But I can understand why, by the general public being misinformed. Of course, money is a legit reason for people to choose this career, but hopefully they are smart enough to realize if they wanted JUST the money, there are tons of other careers. It's a combo of money + having interest in the profession.

Evident by the countless "Oh KnuxNole, how's it gonna feel in 10 years when you'll make millions of dollars?" and trying to just smile.

 

[Rom1pd]

So Mayo>Harvard? because I think Mayo programs are ranked higher than MGH or BWH..

and I'm pretty sure there are some graduates from Penn who didn't match, harvard i dont know.

Obviously you didn't even read my post, but I'll summarize it for you:

Some people from Harvard have average or below average board scores. They still match into great programs. For example:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=10766164&postcount=296

There's like 21 people matching internal med at MGH/BWH/BID. Care to wager what their average board score was relative to external applicants? When your home programs are top 20 in everything, it really helps in terms of matching somewhere competitive.

 

[phltz]

Some people from Harvard have average or below average board scores. They still match into great programs. For example:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=10766164&postcount=296

There's like 21 people matching internal med at MGH/BWH/BID. Care to wager what their average board score was relative to external applicants? When your home programs are top 20 in everything, it really helps in terms of matching somewhere competitive.

That's a particularly poor example - it's par for the course for pretty much every big academic hospital to pick up a lot of residents from their own medical school. That's a whole different type of advantage (and a much narrower one) than a general boost from attending a prestigious school.

 

[theWUbear]

wrong flatearth

 

[eHombre]

I disagree to an extent. While I think intrinsic motivation is perhaps 80% of the package, I think one's environment is also pretty important. If one goes to a place like Harvard, they may feel more compelled to excel. Their surroundings are automatically putting them in the superstar role. On the other hand, if you go to a lower ranked school, let's say Meharry, there is a chance your motivation to enter neurosurg is going to dwindle, despite having the same intrinsic motivation. It is the "self-fulfilling prophecy," especially when everyone around you is behaving in a certain way; you may be more apt to follow the status-quo.

On the contrary. At Harvard there's less pressure to get an outstanding step 1 score. For most people there, an above average score will do (you'll likely match either way; also, Harvard doesn't give much time off for studying). At a lower ranked school, if you took the same student hoping for a similar match outcome, I think there'd be more pressure to "kill" the boards to make up for the difference in prestige and home program advantage.

 

[drizzt3117]

So Mayo>Harvard? because I think Mayo programs are ranked higher than MGH or BWH..

and I'm pretty sure there are some graduates from Penn who didn't match, harvard i dont know.

Mayo programs are better in what?

 

[drizzt3117]

That's part of the reason you go to top schools, because they usually have elite residencies associated with them that are easier to match into.

So Mayo>Harvard? because I think Mayo programs are ranked higher than MGH or BWH..

and I'm pretty sure there are some graduates from Penn who didn't match, harvard i dont know.

That's a particularly poor example - it's par for the course for pretty much every big academic hospital to pick up a lot of residents from their own medical school. That's a whole different type of advantage (and a much narrower one) than a general boost from attending a prestigious school.

 

[ChiDO]

That's part of the reason you go to top schools, because they usually have elite residencies associated with them that are easier to match into.

What's an "elite" residency?

Rush, in Chicago, is "top 5-10" in ortho. However, as a resident, you don't get to do **** until you are a 4-5th year because they have too many fellows and attendings. Here is a quote from a resident review:

"Operating Experience Having perspective now as a resident, I can look back and say that I totally agree with other comments on this forum that there is a lack of operative experience at Rush. The attendings are very hands. Besides the joints service, there is very little hands on operative experience compared to what I've seen elsewhere and experienced. The fellows get to operate a decent amount. The lack of trauma is a huge negative for the program because that is often where you get autonomy. The bone is the deepest thing in the body and that's where you get good at anatomy and exposures. It's bread and butter orthopaedics that they just don't get enough of in my opinion.

Clinic Experience The one on one attending type set up allows for good clinical exposure but the residents don't dictate. You may think that's a good thing at first but I can tell you from experience you want to dictate and learn how, it forces you to think deeper about the diagnosis and treatment plan. There is also no resident run/community clinic where you follow your own patients and make your own decisions- because all their patients are well insured. Cook county fulfills their acgme trauma requirement but I think there is still a lack of autonomous yet supervised clinical decision making.

So in conclusion, you must define what "elite" is and by what I'm guessing your definition is, I would NEVER do a residency at an "elite" program. Give me a community ortho program over "elite" because I could give two ****s baout academic medicine..rahter be a great surgeon than HAVE to do a fellowship becaue my training sucked.

 

[drizzt3117]

Mgh/bwh are elite IM residencies (arguably top 3 with hopkins)

What's an "elite" residency?

Rush, in Chicago, is "top 5-10" in ortho. However, as a resident, you don't get to do **** until you are a 4-5th year because they have too many fellows and attendings. Here is a quote from a resident review:

"Operating Experience Having perspective now as a resident, I can look back and say that I totally agree with other comments on this forum that there is a lack of operative experience at Rush. The attendings are very hands. Besides the joints service, there is very little hands on operative experience compared to what I've seen elsewhere and experienced. The fellows get to operate a decent amount. The lack of trauma is a huge negative for the program because that is often where you get autonomy. The bone is the deepest thing in the body and that's where you get good at anatomy and exposures. It's bread and butter orthopaedics that they just don't get enough of in my opinion.

Clinic Experience The one on one attending type set up allows for good clinical exposure but the residents don't dictate. You may think that's a good thing at first but I can tell you from experience you want to dictate and learn how, it forces you to think deeper about the diagnosis and treatment plan. There is also no resident run/community clinic where you follow your own patients and make your own decisions- because all their patients are well insured. Cook county fulfills their acgme trauma requirement but I think there is still a lack of autonomous yet supervised clinical decision making.

So in conclusion, you must define what "elite" is and by what I'm guessing your definition is, I would NEVER do a residency at an "elite" program. Give me a community ortho program over "elite" because I could give two ****s baout academic medicine..rahter be a great surgeon than HAVE to do a fellowship becaue my training sucked.

 

[Chrome19]

So if I end up at an unranked medical school and manage top scores and grades, I'm screwed for a "top" residency in IM, whatever "top" means? I hope this isn't true.

 

[ChiDO]

Mgh/bwh are elite IM residencies (arguably top 3 with hopkins)

didn't answer the question. but that's to be expected, because you cannot define an elite residency program because everyone looks for different things in a residency program.

 

[drizzt3117]

didn't answer the question. but that's to be expected, because you cannot define an elite residency program because everyone looks for different things in a residency program.

Elite residency programs can generally be grouped as elite clinical and elite academic programs, some have both, but some argue they can never be as good at both research or clinical as one that's focused on either. I agree that it's very dependent on career goals but certainly there are good programs and bad programs.

For example, are you ever worse off coming out of HSS regardless of career goals? I'm not sure a case can be made that you aren't.

 

[45408]

The same is true for Harvard grads with 225 compared to say, MCW grads with 240.

I would love to see your data that support this.



I won't hold my breath, because you don't have it.

People's experiences this cycle.

Mmmm hmmmm.

 

[scarshapedstar]

I knew I shouldn't have turned down Hopkins. 🙄

Seriously, though, you know what's even more effective than being uber elite? Winning the lottery. Basically once you have that jackpot you're set for life. Also, you can be simply born into wealth like Paris Hilton; she's famous and didn't even have to get AOA.

 

[Praefectus]

A name-brand school means nothing when you don't have the work ethic and personal motivation. Going to Harvard is like paying $200 for a pair of jeans when you'll do just fine paying $20-30 for a pair of Levi's.

 

[blizzah]

A name-brand school means nothing when you don't have the work ethic and personal motivation. Going to Harvard is like paying $200 for a pair of jeans when you'll do just fine paying $20-30 for a pair of Levi's.

People don't stumble into top 10 med schools by accident in the first place

 

[investing101]

A prestigious school will only benefit you if you start your own practice or want reports published.

 

[IlDestriero]

A prestigious school will only benefit you if you start your own practice or want reports published.

So that's every private practice group who wants to advertise your recruitment and show off your superior pedigree on their website and all of academics, right?😕
Doesn't seem to leave much...

 

[IlDestriero]

So.... you ARE saying I'm screwed right off the bat?

You need to maximize your opportunities and work harder and more efficiently than your peers. Everyone wants to go to CA, some just to check it out for a few years. LA, SF, SD, Santa Barbara, Monterey, they're all 5 star cities with much to offer. There are also many powerhouse programs in CA. If you want to get into Stanford our UCSF, you need all the help you can get.
If you don't match in CA, it's probably not because you went to EVMS anyway.

 

[45408]

A prestigious school will only benefit you if you start your own practice or want reports published.

So, why exactly does someone opening their own practice need an impressive academic pedigree?

 

[ppfizenm]

So, why exactly does someone opening their own practice need an impressive academic pedigree?

b/c everyone knows you are a crap doctor if you don't go to a top 10. We might as well be going to Caribbean schools.

 

[h e r o]

I agree, yes this is how the world works.

The fact is that most people do not attend these top tier institutions, and to rationalize a bit of positivity into a dire reality people will claim prestige doesn't matter. Again, since the majority of people are from non-prestigious places, they perpetuate this rationalization and it gains more and more believers, despite the truth being the contrary. I realized this too late and also bought into the "prestige doesn't matter" belief to make myself feel better.

Whether or not you are honest with yourself, the truth is that prestige matters. It has always mattered and will continue to always matter. Why else do you think people want to go to Harvard over a less prestigious school? Here's a hint, it's not for the teaching that is so much better. It's for the name, the connections you get from having that name, and the prestige.

 

[scarshapedstar]

The fact is that most people do not attend these top tier institutions, and to rationalize a bit of positivity into a dire reality people will claim prestige doesn't matter.

Brb, slitting mah wrists.