How to act during an HPI?

[DermViser]

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So are you saying that if I avoid fatalism and pessimism, I can be more successful as a student?

Not being fatalistic and pessimistic contributes to a better overall mood and happiness which contributes to your cerebral cortex being able to learn, store, and recall information better. I'm not saying never be sad, or never be angry, these are normal emotions. It's when you entire world view is fatalistic, 24/7, is when it's a problem. It affects your work performance, it affects your relationships with people, etc. I think that's what @Anastomoses, in her own weird way, is trying to get you to change.

That being said, I think she's trying to genuinely help you. Sometimes, someone who doesn't want to commiserate with you, but is happy to kick you in the ass, to get you back up, are one of the best people you can have.

 

[DermViser]

It's ironic how cold hearted everyone is being to someone that is having a hard time being empathetic.

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Quite ironic that those who lack empathy, chastise someone else for wanting to learn how to be empathetic.

 

[dyspareunia]

I've found that it helps to think that sometimes the standardized patient may actually be experiencing things written in their script.

Also try volunteering at a free clinic and doing interviews on real patients. There's a huge discrepancy to the experience with standardized patients.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Also, I think it's cute that a premed dares to criticize, no, INSULT his seniors.

Not all pre-meds on this board are 19 year old kids. Arkloid, I hope you were just trying out your "pulling rank" pants on an internet forum, please don't think this way in real life. Some of your patients will be rocket scientists, experienced engineers, physicists, etc, they will not be impressed with your MD. Some will flip burgers, dig ditches, and clean gutters, they also will not be impressed with your MD. Life's funny that way.

 

[touchpause13]

I've been thinking about this and Ark, you are interested in Psychiatry correct? I feel like empathy is a key skill all psychiatrists need to have and the fact that you have realized that you are having difficulty with it now and are working to address it is a very good thing

 

[DermViser]

Not all pre-meds on this board are 19 year old kids. Arkloid, I hope you were just trying out your "pulling rank" pants on an internet forum, please don't think this way in real life. Some of your patients will be rocket scientists, experienced engineers, physicists, etc, they will not be impressed with your MD. Some will flip burgers, dig ditches, and clean gutters, they also will not be impressed with your MD. Life's funny that way.

Wait you mean patients don't treat physicians like royalty, just bc we have the MD monogrammed on our white coats? When did this happen?

 

[Arkangeloid]

I've been thinking about this and Ark, you are interested in Psychiatry correct? I feel like empathy is a key skill all psychiatrists need to have and the fact that you have realized that you are having difficulty with it now and are working to address it is a very good thing

Yeah, I think Psych is cool, and I did well in that class.

FWIW, I think learning empathy will be a lot easier than learning how to socialize properly with people. On Saturday, I forced myself to go out to yet another bar party (jesus christ, when do my classmates study), and trying to strike up conversations with strangers was painful lol. The few that I talked to excused themselves within a minute, guess I'm a pretty boring dude haha. Oh well, haters be jelly namsayin?

 

[touchpause13]

Yeah, I think Psych is cool, and I did well in that class.

FWIW, I think learning empathy will be a lot easier than learning how to socialize properly with people. On Saturday, I forced myself to go out to yet another bar party (jesus christ, when do my classmates study), and trying to strike up conversations with strangers was painful lol. The few that I talked to excused themselves within a minute, guess I'm a pretty boring dude haha. Oh well, haters be jelly namsayin?

Ugh. No that's not an instance of a hater, and I sincerely doubt they are jelly. They probably thought you were awkward. You may think that repeating phrases like that makes you seem more cool or sociable, but it doesn't. It makes you seem fake.

I mean a lot of medicine is just straight up talking to people so socializing is important IMO. What type of things were you talking about when you struck up a conversation?

 

[Kaputt]

Ugh. No that's not an instance of a hater, and I sincerely doubt they are jelly. They probably thought you were awkward. You may think that repeating phrases like that makes you seem more cool or sociable, but it doesn't. It makes you seem fake.

I mean a lot of medicine is just straight up talking to people so socializing is important IMO. What type of things were you talking about when you struck up a conversation?

And psychiatry is essentially JUST talking to people. Can't imagine a psychiatrist who has no concept of empathy or understanding of social norms.

 

[Arkangeloid]

Ugh. No that's not an instance of a hater, and I sincerely doubt they are jelly. They probably thought you were awkward. You may think that repeating phrases like that makes you seem more cool or sociable, but it doesn't. It makes you seem fake.

I mean a lot of medicine is just straight up talking to people so socializing is important IMO. What type of things were you talking about when you struck up a conversation?

Lol, I just introduced myself, asked who else they knew at the party (they were mostly friends of med students, I already knew all the med students there, and they're all cordial towards me), how they were doing, what they were drinking, etc. Boring ish, I suppose, then again I don't know what exactly exciting ish is. This was the first time I've ever talked to someone I don't know.

Also I never use "haters be jelly" outside the internet. It's just a way for me to relieve stress lol.

And psychiatry is essentially JUST talking to people. Can't imagine a psychiatrist who has no concept of empathy or understanding of social norms.

I don't understand. Our Psychiatry professor taught us that psychiatry was a medical specialty based in using drugs to treat mental illnesses and manage the symptoms thereof. I thought Psychology was about talking to people.

 

[touchpause13]

Lol, I just introduced myself, asked who else they knew at the party (they were mostly friends of med students, I already knew all the med students there, and they're all cordial towards me), how they were doing, what they were drinking, etc. Boring ish, I suppose, then again I don't know what exactly exciting ish is. This was the first time I've ever talked to someone I don't know.

Also I never use "haters be jelly" outside the internet. It's just a way for me to relieve stress lol.




I don't understand. Our Psychiatry professor taught us that psychiatry was a medical specialty based in using drugs to treat mental illnesses and manage the symptoms thereof. I thought Psychology was about talking to people.

But in order to figure out what's wrong with someone you need to talk to them. My experiences are just from a patient side of things so perhaps @Nasrudin can provide some more information.

Also i think trying to talk to ppl you don't know is a good idea. That's what doctors do every day. It's a good skill to learn.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

I don't understand. Our Psychiatry professor taught us that psychiatry was a medical specialty based in using drugs to treat mental illnesses and manage the symptoms thereof. I thought Psychology was about talking to people.

First you have to figure out what the mental illness is...which generally involves a lot of talking to the patient...

 

[Wordead]

I've been thinking about this and Ark, you are interested in Psychiatry correct? I feel like empathy is a key skill all psychiatrists need to have and the fact that you have realized that you are having difficulty with it now and are working to address it is a very good thing

I think you will be surprised by how little empathy and communication skills are needed to be a psychiatrist. There are a lot of them that just basically do medication management and just do the basic "are you thinking about killing yourself or someone else? No? Cool, cya in a couple months".

 

[touchpause13]

I think you will be surprised by how little empathy and communication skills are needed to be a psychiatrist. There are a lot of them that just basically do medication management and just do the basic "are you thinking about killing yourself or someone else? No? Cool, cya in a couple months".

I suppose you can get away with the bare minimum, but IMO if you want to be a good psychiatrist you need to have excellent communication and empathy

 

[Wordead]

I suppose you can get away with the bare minimum, but IMO if you want to be a good psychiatrist you need to have excellent communication and empathy

Of course. I was speaking to the belief that psychiatrists just talk to people about their problems and whatnot. It's not necessarily a large part of the practice, that's all.

 

[tco]

I think talking to people and understanding their story is a lot less important to a psychiatrist than it is for, say, an internist. The story doesn't really matter for treatment in Psychiatry. Saying crazy ass ****? Antipsychotic. Going to kill yourself? Admit on suicide precautions and start SSRI.

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[Elisabeth Kate]

Not all pre-meds on this board are 19 year old kids. Arkloid, I hope you were just trying out your "pulling rank" pants on an internet forum, please don't think this way in real life. Some of your patients will be rocket scientists, experienced engineers, physicists, etc, they will not be impressed with your MD. Some will flip burgers, dig ditches, and clean gutters, they also will not be impressed with your MD. Life's funny that way.

I think you're missing the point. No, not all pre-meds are 19 and no, doctors aren't God. But the point is, you don't criticize when you haven't been there yourself. That would be like a high school senior telling a college junior how to get into med school. Has nothing to do with age. Has everything to do with experience.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

I think talking to people and understanding their story is a lot less important to a psychiatrist than it is for, say, an internist. The story doesn't really matter for treatment in Psychiatry. Saying crazy ass ****? Antipsychotic. Going to kill yourself? Admit on suicide precautions and start SSRI.

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Please tell me you're being sarcastic. If not, you should never give advice to anyone about psychiatry.

 

[tco]

I promise that I'll never give anyone advice about Psychiatry. THANK GOD

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[Elisabeth Kate]

I promise that I'll never give anyone advice about Psychiatry. THANK GOD

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A glimmer of self-awareness. Good.

 

[tco]

Yeah, I'd way rather stick needles and catheters into people than play the, "let's keep this guy from being a delusional, homicidal maniac" any day.

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[Elisabeth Kate]

Yeah, I'd way rather stick needles and catheters into people than play the, "let's keep this guy from being a delusional, homicidal maniac" any day.

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I'm sure the public at large would rather have you stick needles and catheters into people than play the "let's keep this guy from being a delusional, homicidal maniac" any day as well.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

I think you're missing the point. No, not all pre-meds are 19 and no, doctors aren't God. But the point is, you don't criticize when you haven't been there yourself. That would be like a high school senior telling a college junior how to get into med school. Has nothing to do with age. Has everything to do with experience.

I think you missed that there was more than one thing going on there.

Someone can kindly explain that unless someone else has been there, then they shouldn't criticize from ignorance, without making a pathetic attempt at pulling rank.

"Also, I think it's cute that a premed dares to criticize, no, INSULT his seniors."

Besides, saying you "don't criticize unless you've been there yourself" is bogus and damn near non-functional as a general rule of life. General Moa was an evil SOB, but I've never been a mass murderer so I'm not in a position to criticize? No, that's silly ****.

However the criticizer in this case seems to have had some experience in the matter, so either way, your points are moot.

 

[Kaputt]

I don't understand. Our Psychiatry professor taught us that psychiatry was a medical specialty based in using drugs to treat mental illnesses and manage the symptoms thereof. I thought Psychology was about talking to people.

Psychologists are the typically the people who do counseling, CBT, etc. I'm not saying you'll do that as a psychiatrist. I'm saying that as a psychiatrist you'll have to have good people skills because your examination is a conversation. If you don't have the empathy to understand what is bothering your patient, you aren't going to be able to fix anything. Psych is a medical specialty, yes, but it requires more nuance and perception in monitoring your patients than simply measuring a patient's blood pressure to see how the blood pressure pills are working.

At least that's my experience. You'll have to decide for yourself when you actually do a psych rotation to see if it's for you.

FWIW, the people in my class who sound like you all went into pathology.

 

[Arkangeloid]

Psychologists are the typically the people who do counseling, CBT, etc. I'm not saying you'll do that as a psychiatrist. I'm saying that as a psychiatrist you'll have to have good people skills because your examination is a conversation. If you don't have the empathy to understand what is bothering your patient, you aren't going to be able to fix anything. Psych is a medical specialty, yes, but it requires more nuance and perception in monitoring your patients than simply measuring a patient's blood pressure to see how the blood pressure pills are working.

At least that's my experience. You'll have to decide for yourself when you actually do a psych rotation to see if it's for you.

FWIW, the people in my class who sound like you all went into pathology.

Pathology is cool (at least in my opinion, and it's also a class I scored highly in), but the job market in that field is abysmal.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Pathology is cool (at least in my opinion, and it's also a class I scored highly in), but the job market in that field is abysmal.

Job markets can change a lot in 6+ years.

 

[Arkangeloid]

Job markets can change a lot in 6+ years.

Things rarely change for the better. Especially in medicine, from what I hear.

 

[Kaputt]

Pathology is cool (at least in my opinion, and it's also a class I scored highly in), but the job market in that field is abysmal.

Yeah job market is not ideal in pathology. But you never know -- radiology had a horrible job market that essentially changed overnight into an amazing one (but now it's back to a slump). An advancement in path in the near future could make the specialty hotter. No one can predict the future.

Job markets are fickle -- don't pick something based on job prospects, salary, etc. Pick what you like. If you like what you do, you'll never work a day in your life.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

I think you missed that there was more than one thing going on there.

Someone can kindly explain that unless someone else has been there, then they shouldn't criticize from ignorance, without making a pathetic attempt at pulling rank.

"Also, I think it's cute that a premed dares to criticize, no, INSULT his seniors."

The person IS his senior, which means he has more experience than the other poster in dealing with this particular issue. He wasn't using senior to refer to an age. He was using it to refer to a level of experience. That's how it is in medicine. Med students report to their senior, the intern. The interns report to their senior, the resident. The residents report to their senior, a fellow or attending. Not refers to it as an age; simply a level of experience.

Besides, saying you "don't criticize unless you've been there yourself" is bogus and damn near non-functional as a general rule of life. General Moa was an evil SOB, but I've never been a mass murderer so I'm not in a position to criticize? No, that's silly ****.

No, it's not the least bit bogus. Would you take advice about college from a high schooler? No, you wouldn't. It's the same thing here. Until you're there, you're clueless.

 

[Arkangeloid]

No, it's not the least bit bogus. Would you take advice about college from a high schooler? No, you wouldn't. It's the same thing here. Until you're there, you're clueless.

Actually I would have taken advice from him, but he didn't provide advice, he said that I did not deserve admission to medical school.

Doesn't matter though I guess, he apologized, and so I forgive him.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

The person IS his senior, which means he has more experience than the other poster in dealing with this particular issue. He wasn't using senior to refer to an age. He was using it to refer to a level of experience. That's how it is in medicine. Med students report to their senior, the intern. The interns report to their senior, the resident. The residents report to their senior, a fellow or attending. Not refers to it as an age; simply a level of experience.

"Level of experience"...right...MS1, mock patient, really?

And, you're wrong. Since you clearly failed the thread in it's context before posting this drivel, here it is again:

Also what makes you think I've never done an HPI? I have taken more HPIs than any first or second year, unless they too worked in a busy ED where the doctors were also Residency Faculty and had experienced scribes get the chart started and see the patient first.

To recap, on your own grounds, the critical one had all the right in the world to criticize. The Arkloid tried to pull rank as if this will somehow get him out of being sh*tty at something in his future career. It won't. Patients don't care about your degree or experience. Other doctors will still think you're incompetent even if you "out rank" them.

No, it's not the least bit bogus. Would you take advice about college from a high schooler? No, you wouldn't. It's the same thing here. Until you're there, you're clueless.

No, it's bogus. You're over simplifying this **** out of this, you wouldn't last a week actually living this mantra out. My guess is you have some political leanings and can surely find fault with some rep/senator/president/candidate. If you can, you're a walking contradiction if you can't, you're a liar.

 

[DermViser]

The person IS his senior, which means he has more experience than the other poster in dealing with this particular issue. He wasn't using senior to refer to an age. He was using it to refer to a level of experience. That's how it is in medicine. Med students report to their senior, the intern. The interns report to their senior, the resident. The residents report to their senior, a fellow or attending. Not refers to it as an age; simply a level of experience.

No, it's not the least bit bogus. Would you take advice about college from a high schooler? No, you wouldn't. It's the same thing here. Until you're there, you're clueless.

BINGO. Your typical SDN premed thinks they know everything and dismissing anything to the contrary.

 

[Arkangeloid]

To recap, on your own grounds, the critical one had all the right in the world to criticize. The Arkloid tried to pull rank as if this will somehow get him out of being sh*tty at something in his future career. It won't. Patients don't care about your degree or experience. Other doctors will still think you're incompetent even if you "out rank" them.

Criticize me all you want, that's completely fair I suppose. "How did you get into medical school" is not a criticism, though.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

"Level of experience"...right...MS1, mock patient, really?

Yes, really.

To recap, on your own grounds, the critical one had all the right in the world to criticize. The Arkloid tried to pull rank as if this will somehow get him out of being sh*tty at something in his future career. It won't. Patients don't care about your degree or experience. Other doctors will still think you're incompetent even if you "out rank" them

I hate to break it to you, buddy, but 100% of med students are "****ty at something in their future career." Yes, even you. It may not be getting an HPI, but it will be something. The fact that you can't see that or accept it from those of us who've already been there is very telling. Medical school is about learning. If people didn't make mistakes, there would be no need for it. So, no, the OP doesn't need something to "get him out of being ****ty at something in his future career." At this stage in the game, he's expected to be "****ty at something in his future career."

No, it's bogus. You're over simplifying this **** out of this, you wouldn't last a week actually living this mantra out. My guess is you have some political leanings and can surely find fault with some rep/senator/president/candidate. If you can, you're a walking contradiction if you can't, you're a liar.

What in the world??? You win the prize for the most nonsensical rambling idiotic vent I've heard in a very long time.

 

[mulberry]

No, it's bogus. You're over simplifying this **** out of this, you wouldn't last a week actually living this mantra out. My guess is you have some political leanings and can surely find fault with some rep/senator/president/candidate. If you can, you're a walking contradiction if you can't, you're a liar.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

I hate to break it to you, buddy, but 100% of med students are "****** at something in their future career." Yes, even you. It may not be getting an HPI, but it will be something. The fact that you can't see that or accept it from those of us who've already been there is very telling. Medical school is about learning. If people didn't make mistakes, there would be no need for it. So, no, the OP doesn't need something to "get him out of being ****** at something in his future career." At this stage in the game, he's expected to be "****** at something in his future career."

You're not "breaking" anything to me, buddy. This isn't exactly divine revelation that you're dropping.
Who said med students aren't sh*tty at things? No one.
Who said I can't accept that? I know plenty of things I'm ****ty at.
No one is arguing what the OP needs or doesn't need.
The OP tried to pull rank to escape criticism.
Either read in context or stop wasting your own time and emotions.

Only on SDN is it too sacred for a "pre-med" to criticize a med student over a lack of understanding of basic human empathy. Because that's unique to medical education... 🙄

What in the world??? You win the prize for the most nonsensical rambling idiotic vent I've heard in a very long time.

Haha, right. My example was so difficult to understand, why chasing the logic tree to its logical conclusion is so unnecessarily burdensome let's just call it non-sensical idiotic venting. Or you just realized your position is bullish*t, either way, I lose.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

For the smart but short attention span ones...

But the point is, you don't criticize when you haven't been there yourself.

My guess is you have some political leanings and can surely find fault with some rep/senator/president/candidate. If you can, you're a walking contradiction if you can't, you're a liar.

Let's really flesh this out, put some meat on these bones.....

1. Does she have political leanings?
Yes? Check!!
On to step 2!

2. Has she been a rep/senator/president/candidate before?
NO? OMG! On to step 3!

3. Does she have a critical opinion of anyone's actions in congress?
Yes. OMFG?!?! Refer back to quote one for logical inconsistancy. "Oh Nooooo, pretend you don't understand!!"
No? Does she have a pulse? Yes? She's a liar. No? She's a liar.

Memes are easier than basic logic though, I get it.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

Someone needs a nap.

 

[mulberry]

For the smart but short attention span ones...





Let's really flesh this out, put some meat on these bones.....

1. Does she have political leanings?
Yes? Check!!
On to step 2!

2. Has she been a rep/senator/president/candidate before?
NO? OMG! On to step 3!

3. Does she have a critical opinion of anyone's actions in congress?
Yes. OMFG?!?! Refer back to quote one for logical inconsistancy. "Oh Nooooo, pretend you don't understand!!"
No? Does she have a pulse? Yes? She's a liar. No? She's a liar.

Memes are easier than basic logic though, I get it.

 

[Winged Scapula]

If users cannot be civil to each other when they disagree, they are subject to SDN Administrative action and this thread will be closed.

 

[tn4596]

Is taking a HPI even a useful skill if you are gonna be a anesthesiologist or radiologist...

 

[touchpause13]

For the smart but short attention span ones...





Let's really flesh this out, put some meat on these bones.....

1. Does she have political leanings?
Yes? Check!!
On to step 2!

2. Has she been a rep/senator/president/candidate before?
NO? OMG! On to step 3!

3. Does she have a critical opinion of anyone's actions in congress?
Yes. OMFG?!?! Refer back to quote one for logical inconsistancy. "Oh Nooooo, pretend you don't understand!!"
No? Does she have a pulse? Yes? She's a liar. No? She's a liar.

Memes are easier than basic logic though, I get it.

I'm confused. At which step do I put my dick in the box?

 

[evilbooyaa]

To recap, on your own grounds, the critical one had all the right in the world to criticize. The Arkloid tried to pull rank as if this will somehow get him out of being sh*tty at something in his future career. It won't. Patients don't care about your degree or experience. Other doctors will still think you're incompetent even if you "out rank" them.

Yeah, so a scribe transcribing what a doctor is asking from an HPI is not the same thing as 'doing an HPI'. If the pre-med was a PA or NP previously, then fine, they've done legit HPIs. A scribe doing legit HPIs? You guys serious?

 

[tco]

I think it's hilarious that this thread was created in an effort to ask for help with HPIs, the OP was mocked for not having empathy, the thread was derailed by a few people mocking him for wanting to go into psych/talking about what psych really is, goes to personal attacks, and one of the easiest going mods on the boards threatens to close it down. Nicely played, SDN.

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[Kaputt]

I think it's hilarious that this thread was created in an effort to ask for help with HPIs, the OP was mocked for not having empathy, the thread was derailed by a few people mocking him for wanting to go into psych/talking about what psych really is, goes to personal attacks, and one of the easiest going mods on the boards threatens to close it down. Nicely played, SDN.

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Who mocked Ark for wanting to go into psych? Much like how a blind person probably shouldn't be a dermatologist, I would argue that someone who can't read emotions well would have a tough time in psychiatry.

Most of the arguing is from people arguing over "pulling rank"...which is ridic. Guys, grow up.

 

[Arkangeloid]

Best quote I heard at a post-match panel:

"A lot of applicants are socially awkward, if you are normal you will do well at the interview and be ranked higher because of it."

 

[touchpause13]

I think it's hilarious that this thread was created in an effort to ask for help with HPIs, the OP was mocked for not having empathy, the thread was derailed by a few people mocking him for wanting to go into psych/talking about what psych really is, goes to personal attacks, and one of the easiest going mods on the boards threatens to close it down. Nicely played, SDN.

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I don't see anyone mocking Ark, I certainly wasn't. I've been trying to offer him constructive advice, and I think everyone else has attempted to do the same. And he's a big boy, if he felt offended he can say so himself.

 

[Arkangeloid]

I don't see anyone mocking Ark, I certainly wasn't. I've been trying to offer him constructive advice, and I think everyone else has attempted to do the same. And he's a big boy, if he felt offended he can say so himself.

A couple people (not you) were, but whatever, it's in the past now. I'm more concerned about some stupid Cardiac phyiso lectures where I can't identify what the high yield **** is.

 

[evilbooyaa]

A couple people (not you) were, but whatever, it's in the past now. I'm more concerned about some stupid Cardiac phyiso lectures where I can't identify what the high yield **** is.

Don't worry about what is high-yield. You're a MS1. Focus on learning (preferably more than just memorizing) what the professors want you to know for the exams.

 

[caffeinemia]

So I got in trouble with the school admins after failing to take an HPI of a standardized patient properly. While the evaluation said that I had done everything correct from a medical perspective and covered everything I needed to cover, I failed because I "did not display the proper emotions or provide consolation" when the patient talked about sad ****. The evaluator remarked that I "did not show any emotion at all."

I was confused at this, because nobody taught me what to do regarding emotional ****. All my instructor told us was to "act like you are on a date," but that is meaningless to someone who has never been on a date.

So how are you supposed to act when taking a HPI?

This is hilarious because I had the same problem/experience. I feel for you.

It's a hard thing to teach especially if you're normally a stoic/reserved person.
At first, I thought it was all serious and I held back from my real personality and shieet.

But after failing the first test or whatever, I just turned the experience on it's head.
I just started behaving like those training sessions were completely casual; no physician seriousness.
Laughed when I wanted, cracked a joke when it was felt good.
Said, "oh that sucks, man" when the patient told me about sucky things.
Being evasive/embarrassed about your drinking history? "Yeah man, I could use one every evening too."

Guess what, I've since done fine and showed with lots of "empathy." Psh.
Just keep in mind that patients are just people.
And you're just two homies talking about awkward medical ****. Keep it casual/normal as much as possible.