How to approach the subject of quitting MSTP

[sakata8242]

---

Members do not see this ad.

How do you approach the subject with your MSTP director/administrators? I have not finalized a decision, but I am strongly thinking about abandoning the PhD portion of the program and therefore, dropping out of the MSTP and returning to my clinical rotations.

I feel it won't go over very well with my director/administrators if I bring up the idea that I've been considering dropping out. Director already knows I've been struggling and have lost interest in research, but has never seemed open to the idea of allowing trainees to drop out if it's in their best interest. My impression is that the program would rather have us be miserable and finish, rather than have the stigma of a dropout. In the 6 years I've been in the program, I know of only 1 trainee who was allowed to quit.

The problem is I need to find out what needs to be done in terms of logistics/planning so that if I do end up transitioning, I'll have everything lined up and ready to go for clinical rotations (financial aid, rotation selection, etc) But the only way it seems I can get the information I need is to bring this up with my MSTP admins.

Thoughts?

 

[mtb103]

I'm curious as to why you're quitting after six years. Presumably, that means you're three - four years into grad school. Is there absolutely no chance of you defending anytime soon? Have you spoken with your adviser or thesis committee about this? Or other students in the program for what they're experiencing at this time point? From a financial standpoint, it usually makes more sense just to stick it out, and it's common for MD/PhDs to feel some burn out.

 

[Maebea]

Sounds like your program is more interested in their statistics than in the welfare of students. The NIH expects that there will be attrition from a program. In fact, the former MSTP director, Bert Shapiro, said that a attrition rate of zero does not necessarily mean that a program is doing everything right; rather, it probably means that the program is not willing to take risks on applicants who are not the typical 38 MCAT, 3.95 who worked in an HHMI lab.

I am not overjoyed when a student decides to leave our program (although I have been relieved on a couple of occasions), but I never give the student a hard time or make them feel guilty. In my experience, they have already beaten themselves up over their decision to leave, so why pile on or try to convince them that they should stay in something they know is not right for them.

Perhaps you should meet with your med school's dean of student affairs. Request that they keep the matter confidential & find out the process for returning to med school, financial aid, etc. The dean is your advocate & should be willing to keep a confidence.

 

[Lil Mick]

Send me a PM.

 

[sakata8242]

Like I mentioned in my post, I haven't yet finalized a decision. However, this upcoming May will be the end of my 5th year in the lab, and I have little to show for it (so I guess it's my 7th year). My advisor is unrealistically optimistic, and my committee has always been relatively indifferent. As for a defense date, who knows? It's already December, and if I want to go back to clinic on time I'd have to defend by the end of April.

Given that the experiment I'm working on right now is a huge risk both financially and in terms of any results, and is running behind by several months due to mouse breeding issues, an April defense is looking extremely unlikely. I could push back returning as late as July, but what I don't want is to end up in a situation where I miss that deadline and am forced to spend another year in the lab. This happened last year, where a failed experiment kept me from finishing and returning with my classmates, and at this point, I am too burned out and turned off to research to face another year in lab. I realize the loss of financial aid is significant, especially at this point, but I do not have any other student debt so I think it's reasonable to take on loans for the last 2 years of medical school.

I guess the ideal plan would be to stick it out for the next 5 months, hope the experiment works well enough to give me data to finish, but if it doesn't, still have everything lined up and ready for me to return to clinic regardless. I've met and talked with an individual in the program who I felt comfortable speaking to about this, and she agrees. I have a meeting scheduled with our director this week to discuss the issue and see if this plan is possible. He has to know about it sooner or later, so why delay.

 

[gbwillner]

.... running behind by several months due to mouse breeding issues....

That's all you had to say. Let that be a lesson to all young MSTP'ers. Don't do a thesis project where you have to make a mouse.

 

[Mtthw46Irish]

I realize the loss of financial aid is significant, especially at this point, but I do not have any other student debt so I think it's reasonable to take on loans for the last 2 years of medical school.

A lot of programs will make you pay back the first 2 years as well if you do not complete the PhD portion of your program. Something to look into.

 

[SBR249]

A lot of programs will make you pay back the first 2 years as well if you do not complete the PhD portion of your program. Something to look into.

This could be very program-dependent, but my impression was the NIH-funded MSTPs generally do not require paybacks. The same cannot be said for other programs which may only give provisional tuition waivers that are vested upon graduation.

 

[ImagineThis]

This could be very program-dependent, but my impression was the NIH-funded MSTPs generally do not require paybacks. The same cannot be said for other programs which may only give provisional tuition waivers that are vested upon graduation.

This was my impression as well. Even more standard though, that the MSTPs funded by the NIH cannot seek payback by virtue of being NIH-funded.

 

[K31]

This could be very program-dependent, but my impression was the NIH-funded MSTPs generally do not require paybacks. The same cannot be said for other programs which may only give provisional tuition waivers that are vested upon graduation.

NIH-funded MSTPs cannot require paybacks if they want to keep their grant.

For non-NIH-funded programs it varies, but my impression is they can't legally require you to pay it back unless you signed a contract agreeing to that when you matriculated. I believe only a small number of programs do so.

 

[atsai3]

I haven't heard of any MSTPs clawing back the MS1/MS2 money.
I have heard of program directors browbeating students into completing the program, but that is another issue.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

Like I mentioned in my post, I haven't yet finalized a decision. However, this upcoming May will be the end of my 5th year in the lab, and I have little to show for it (so I guess it's my 7th year). My advisor is unrealistically optimistic, and my committee has always been relatively indifferent. As for a defense date, who knows? It's already December, and if I want to go back to clinic on time I'd have to defend by the end of April.

Given that the experiment I'm working on right now is a huge risk both financially and in terms of any results, and is running behind by several months due to mouse breeding issues, an April defense is looking extremely unlikely. I could push back returning as late as July, but what I don't want is to end up in a situation where I miss that deadline and am forced to spend another year in the lab. This happened last year, where a failed experiment kept me from finishing and returning with my classmates, and at this point, I am too burned out and turned off to research to face another year in lab. I realize the loss of financial aid is significant, especially at this point, but I do not have any other student debt so I think it's reasonable to take on loans for the last 2 years of medical school.

I guess the ideal plan would be to stick it out for the next 5 months, hope the experiment works well enough to give me data to finish, but if it doesn't, still have everything lined up and ready for me to return to clinic regardless. I've met and talked with an individual in the program who I felt comfortable speaking to about this, and she agrees. I have a meeting scheduled with our director this week to discuss the issue and see if this plan is possible. He has to know about it sooner or later, so why delay.

Please, please, just finish this up. You have invested way too much to pull back at this time. If after 4-5 years you have little to show for it, it's primarily your mentor's fault. If it was a matter of poor work ethic on your part, he should have said something about it by now. If it's a failed project, he should have given you side projects or a safer project. Try to get on some side projects, fluff up the thesis and get out.

The standards are not and cannot be as harsh for most MD/PhDs (and I include myself here) as for "straight PhDs." You have a whole other career going and cannot afford to waste more time. Your program director may need to nudge things along if your mentor/committee doesn't understand.

Finally, I considered leaving very strongly. I so wanted to do it. The key was finding the right mentor and things changed completely after that. You are in too deep for that, but what I realized back then holds in your case. Regardless of the finances or the fact that "just MD" is still pretty prestigious, you will feel disappointed and down about your failure to complete the PhD for a long time. Your self esteem will be shattered for a while. Just grind it out, even if it's not a PhD you find "worthy", you'll feel much better if you just finish it.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

That's all you had to say. Let that be a lesson to all young MSTP'ers. Don't do a thesis project where you have to make a mouse.

Program directors should be clear about this. No mouse transgenics being made, no protein crystallization attempted, etc.

 

[draizetrain]

How do you approach the subject with your MSTP director/administrators?

Delicately.

http://barnabasredux.wordpress.com

Make sure you have the full support of your director. Make sure your director is strong and that the medical school administration is supportive. If possible, convince them about why you are leaving. And lastly, make sure you don't have any unreasonable obstacles to reenter the clinics. Would you have to reapply and reinterview? What are your school's policies?

 

[Neuronix]

You got screwed. Unfortunately, this could happen to any of us. 🙁 These types of stories are far more common than MD/PhD faculty want to discuss.

At least you were able to finish med school. Shame on UAB for your "reassignment" to another clinical campus.

 

[RagingBeauty]

How do you approach the subject with your MSTP director/administrators? I have not finalized a decision, but I am strongly thinking about abandoning the PhD portion of the program and therefore, dropping out of the MSTP and returning to my clinical rotations.

I feel it won't go over very well with my director/administrators if I bring up the idea that I've been considering dropping out. Director already knows I've been struggling and have lost interest in research, but has never seemed open to the idea of allowing trainees to drop out if it's in their best interest. My impression is that the program would rather have us be miserable and finish, rather than have the stigma of a dropout. In the 6 years I've been in the program, I know of only 1 trainee who was allowed to quit.

The problem is I need to find out what needs to be done in terms of logistics/planning so that if I do end up transitioning, I'll have everything lined up and ready to go for clinical rotations (financial aid, rotation selection, etc) But the only way it seems I can get the information I need is to bring this up with my MSTP admins.

Thoughts?

Wow! This forum is very informative. I never really thought about leaving a MD-PhD program once admitted.😱 Things happen, life goes on. Wishing you all the best in your future endeavors. 🙂

 

[Neuronix]

👍

I was surprised when one of the schools I interviewed at mentioned that only about 60% graduated with both degrees.😱

That's a bit on the low side. I would estimate at the bigger MSTPs it's probably on the order of 80-90%. But many students do suffer huge setbacks at times and go on to graduate regardless. The question becomes whether they can make do getting a PhD with one weak publication or no publications at all because their thesis project got scooped or some other major problem happened that's out of their control, or if they're ok taking 2 extra years, or if they're ok moving to a new location and spending an extra year because their lab moved, etc etc etc...

 

[StoicJosher]

That's a bit on the low side. I would estimate at the bigger MSTPs it's probably on the order of 80-90%. But many students do suffer huge setbacks at times and go on to graduate regardless. The question becomes whether they can make do getting a PhD with one weak publication or no publications at all because their thesis project got scooped or some other major problem happened that's out of their control, or if they're ok taking 2 extra years, or if they're ok moving to a new location and spending an extra year because their lab moved, etc etc etc...

Seems like a lot of those would depend on the kind of thesis committee you have. How does it work if a lab moves (to a different location, university etc) and the student wants to move with the lab to finish the PhD?

 

[Neuronix]

Seems like a lot of those would depend on the kind of thesis committee you have.

A crystal ball is the only way to pick the right thesis committee.

How does it work if a lab moves (to a different location, university etc) and the student wants to move with the lab to finish the PhD?

Depends on the program. It's a year setback with all the transitioning (at least).

 

[PTPoeny]

Seems like a lot of those would depend on the kind of thesis committee you have. How does it work if a lab moves (to a different location, university etc) and the student wants to move with the lab to finish the PhD?

Depends. I've known two people who moved with their lab. One stayed within the city and came back with the PI to campus for thesis committee meetings. The other moved across the country and did a combination of video conferenced meetings and adding some local people for more frequent meetings with the defense back at campus.

 

[echod]

Delicately.

http://barnabasredux.wordpress.com

Make sure you have the full support of your director. Make sure your director is strong and that the medical school administration is supportive. If possible, convince them about why you are leaving. And lastly, make sure you don't have any unreasonable obstacles to reenter the clinics. Would you have to reapply and reinterview? What are your school's policies?

Did your school retaliate or made things harder for you when you were applying to residencies? Specifically, in terms of the deans letter and recommendations? Do you feel like you would have gotten into a better program or specialty if they had treated you like any other MD student?

 

[draizetrain]

Did your school retaliate or made things harder for you when you were applying to residencies? Specifically, in terms of the deans letter and recommendations? Do you feel like you would have gotten into a better program or specialty if they had treated you like any other MD student?

No, when I applied to residencies I wasn't concerned about retaliation because no one at my clinical branch campus really knew or cared about my weird truncated PhD experience. The match couldn't have gone any better for me. I got all the interviews I wanted, and matched at my top choice.

But getting back into medical school wasn't straightforward. I thought it'd be an automatic process since I hadn't had any real issues up to that point. So, I'd just recommend that MSTP students look into this process prior to resigning and make sure they have the support of the MSTP program and the medical school before making any decision.

And Neuronix is right. While these sorts of PhD experiences aren't common, they aren't unheard of either, for MSTPers or grad students in general. If I had been solely a PhD student, I would have had a more difficult time getting my career on track. Fortunately I had the MD to fall back upon.